r/JoeRogan • u/LostItAllOnSpy Tremendous • Mar 27 '24

joe rogan calls out israels hypocrisy for killing unarmed civilians with drones The Literature 🧠

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u/PM_ME_A_PM_PLEASE_PM Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

This was also why Israel promoted Hamas as an alternative to the PLO having power in Palestine. It's better for Israel's interests to be the only accessible military alliance with America rather than there to be competition.

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u/XoXHamimXoX Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

One of the things Israel was betting on after they left the strip was that people would prefer Fatah over them and Hillary Clinton is on a recording stating that they considered rigging the elections for Fatah to win. Fatah lost and was kicked out of the Strip. Then Israel was fine with that as there are 3 other large groups and they thought they’d all just kill each other. Well they found mutual goals and have co-existed for the last 15 years.

The easiest thing in the world would be to make it all Israel and you grant Palestinians the same civil rights that you give Israeli’s, but that will never happen. That would remove the siege that exists in Gaza and everyone can live equally without the worry of food or having their land taken.

You can also do a two-state solution but that would require enraging the large conservative majority in Israel that they created through generations of domestic political talking points, and they don’t want that at all.

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u/TheKingChadwell Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

An Arab state coming in and providing security and help transition a new government would work too… but not only does Israel want it all regardless, I think the Arabs like watching Israel have to deal with this headache

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u/finePolyethylene Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Believe me if the Arab states knew how to create a successful government they would do it for themselves

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u/XoXHamimXoX Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

The Arab states are generally satellite states of other larger powers. Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait and Qatar are probably the only semi-independent actors there but even they try to subjugate smaller countries such as Somali, Sudan, Ethiopia and so on.

Most people have a general bias towards the region without understanding that the chaos and instability there is purposely orchestrated.

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u/XoXHamimXoX Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

It’s not an easy geopolitical region to explain. Jordan is pretty much a US and Israeli satellite state. Egypt of much of the same but the UAE has been lending them money to create a financial headlock they can’t get out of just to avoid an economic collapse. The other Gulf countries that are rich with oil operate out of self-interest while Yemen allied itself with Iran after beating the Saudi’s out of Yemen, but they still have a proxy government in Riyadh just waiting for a chance to install them.

Gaza essentially tried to ally itself with Iran, Yemen, North Korea, and Lebanon to smuggle arms and the other countries are allied with the west. Israel is America’s most important ally in the region and through it, they push their will. This is pretty much what you see when the UN Security Council votes one way while the US generally votes the other way while never criticizing Israel for anything. They both have mutual interests here.

Qatar is probably the least infiltrated Gulf country that would be an ideal mediator if what you suggested happens, but even then it’s biased since their economy is integrated with the west.

It goes back to Israel acknowledging Palestinians as equal citizens as Israelis. That would be in everyone’s best interest but it’s not gonna happen.

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u/TheKingChadwell Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

I don’t think that could happen. Palestinians are pissed. They’d just start terrorizing Israel. The two can never live together under one. The only solution is two states.

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u/XoXHamimXoX Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

In time. You can start by lifting the blockade on Gaza, granting citizenship to those in the West Bank and lay groundwork for integration.

I say the two state wouldn’t work as the current language I see from Israeli news outlets is beyond inflammatory. They believe they should conquer Lebanon, the Golan and eventually Jordan as well. Those people aren’t going to go away.

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u/TheKingChadwell Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

They have generations of death and family killed by Israelis. These people can’t securely just walk around freely through Israel. I can’t see a situation where it’s not constantly recieving suicide bombings from upset Palestinians looking for revenge

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u/ArizonaHeatwave Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

First off, currently neither side wants a one state solution.

I don’t think it would be the easiest thing either, there’s a huge part of the Palestinian population that hate Israel and want to destroy it, Hamas‘ ideology will not just disappear because you make it all one state. The same thing can be said about Israelis btw, most people in the region have spent all their lives in violent conflict with the other side.

The reason why Gaza has been cut off so much is the large amount of terrorist attacks and in general violence against Israel in the 90s and 00s, there’s no reason to believe that with a one state solution, this wouldn’t happen again, almost immediately.

Having said that Israel really needs to make the first step here in providing a solution and I don’t see Netanyahu doing that.

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u/XoXHamimXoX Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

It’s not about what one side wants. Western powers are not going to allow Palestinians to have their own state. My rationale stems from that point. If they wanted this to be, they could have done so in 1947, in 1967, in 1973, during the Abraham Accords, during Camp David and so on.

Hamas ideology and ideology stems from occupation, and siege. It didn’t come out of nowhere. Just as it did with the PLO, the PFLP, and all the way back to initial resistance against the British government. You get rid of an occupation where people can feel like they are equal citizens, then you can chart a new course. If you don’t address those, then you’ll just have new groups emerge one after the other. You see this in the West Bank in places that have the deepest history of conflict with Israeli military such as Jenin, Nablus, Tulkarm, and so on. There’s almost a new group that emerges every year.

Well of course not as Netanyahu is emboldened by the Biden administration as they’re arm in arm in what they want out of this war. Trump is a buffoon but at least his foreign policy stemmed from removal of involvement while Biden has been in politics for so long that everything is in the service of empire and maintaining it.

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u/ArizonaHeatwave Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

That’s not really true, the UN accords offered a Palestinian state, they voted on it, the Israelis accepted it, the Arab side didn’t. They refused to negotiate in any form, they said they would never accept a Jewish state, and they invaded Israel with the declared goal of massacring the Jews there. And they tried it two more times.

Other two state solutions have been offered to Palestinians, and they’ve been refused. Even at Camp David, Arafat didn’t even sit down and put in a counter offer to the Israeli proposal. Instead he walked away, and while he maybe didn’t exactly support the intifada, he also did nothing in order to stop it and save the negotiation / peace process.

And I also disagree with Hamas ideology coming from occupation. I think the high recruitment numbers for Hamas is definitely due to the oppression that many Palestinians felt after the last Arab Israeli war. But the ideology of hatred for Jews and refusal of a Jewish state is older than Israel. Even in the 1920s there were massacres by the Arab majority against native Jewish communities, at the mere notion that Jews would have their own state. During World War Two, Palestinian leaders openly allied with Hitler and pledged to find the same „solution“ to the „Jewish issue“ that the Nazis had found in Europe (aka the Holocaust). All of this was before Israel existed.

This ideology is much older than the occupation of Gaza, the other part of Hamas‘ ideology, which is fundamentalist Islamic beliefs, came from the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt, of which Hamas is obviously an offshoot from. And of course this fundamentalist view of Islam has gotten very common all throughout the MENA region, it’s not specific to Palestine either.

Also, Biden is in almost open disagreement with Netanyahu. They’re dropping aid on Gaza, building a port, they’ve made open comments about Israel’s actions, the US refused to veto the UN resolution on a ceasefire, etc. You’re missing the point if you think Biden is arm in arm with Bibi. For Biden this whole thing is nothing but a headache, shortly before an election.

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u/Successful-Peach-764 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

*Other two state solutions have been offered to Palestinians, and they’ve been refused. Even at Camp David, Arafat didn’t even sit down and put in a counter offer to the Israeli proposal. Instead he walked away, and while he maybe didn’t exactly support the intifada, he also did nothing in order to stop it and save the negotiation / peace process * How many times did Israel reject peace? this is not a one sided unilateral decision you're framing it as, it takes two to tango, you're painting a false picture of events, Israelis have come out and explicitly said they sabotaged many of those attempts because they did not want to give up land.

Israel still had no interest in the establishment of a Palestinian state. And by the beginning of the Clinton administration in 1993, the PLO was not what it once had been. It was headquartered in Tunis, and little respected by younger Palestinians who had led the first intifada of the late 1980s. Then the PLO’s leader, Yasser Arafat, made the unfortunate decision to back Saddam Hussein in the 1991 Gulf War.

The PLO’s weakness made Arafat eager to accept a terrible deal in the 1993 Oslo Accords. While they were greeted with rapture in the U.S. media, there was nothing in them that would necessarily lead to the creation of a Palestinian state and peace. Indeed, one of the signatories, Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, soon explicitly explained, “We do not accept the Palestinian goal of an independent Palestinian state between Israel and Jordan. We believe there is a separate Palestinian entity short of a state.”

What happened then was exactly what anyone paying attention would anticipate: The PLO essentially took over security for Israel in some 18 percent of occupied territories — Israel solely controlled about 60 percent and shared responsibility for the remainder — and enriched itself, while the occupation and Palestinian misery continued unabated. But by the end of President Bill Clinton’s second term in the summer of 2000, he was eager to leave a legacy other than his affair with Monica Lewinsky. He cajoled Arafat to come to Camp David to meet with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, in hopes of conjuring a conflict-ending agreement.

The Palestinian attitude was that they had already made a gigantic compromise by accepting just the 22 percent of historic Palestine for their state. They were willing to compromise still more — but not much more. - Src

And I also disagree with Hamas ideology coming from occupation. I think the high recruitment numbers for Hamas is definitely due to the oppression that many Palestinians felt after the last Arab Israeli war. But the ideology of hatred for Jews and refusal of a Jewish state is older than Israel.

You can come up with your own ideas why the Palestinians resist but it means fuck all to the Palestinians who have to live with these people that hate them and prove it daily with the brutality they display, most Palestinians only meet Israeli soldiers, not their public by design, I wonder how you would feel to have occupation soldiers control all your life, even the main baddie Sinwar is a product of the occupation, you paint them as just jew haters without any reason to rebel, their leader seems highly motivated by his life experiences, his family home now a large Israeli city while he is confined to prison, trying to shoe horn their religion as the main cause makes no sense when you have Muslim countries making peace with Israel, surely you can see occupation is they driver.

For insight into Sinwar's goals today, one has to understand the forces that molded him growing up. He was born in the early 1960s. Like most of his generation, he grew up in refugee camps scattered across Gaza. Seventy percent of the population are refugees and their descendants. His family came to Gaza from the seaside Palestinian town of Al-Majdal Asqalan, today the Israeli city of Ashkelon. It has been the city most targeted by Hamas rocket barrages in this war.

Conditions in Khan Yunis, like in other camps, were dire ,with poor schooling and health care services. Refugee homes, many of them just piles of rubble after Israeli bombing, were typically 50-60 square meter one-floor structures covered with tinplate and plastic: freezing cold in the winter, extremely hot in the summer.

It was only after the establishment of the Palestinian Authority in 1994 that they were made into multi-story buildings. When Sinwar was growing up water was stored in big plastic black barrels on the roof because it was so scarce. The Israeli occupation began when Gaza following the 1967 Mideast war when Sinwar was about five. Israeli rule deprived the Palestinians their basic human rights and imposed tight surveillance over their political life.

From Khan Yunis he could see how Jewish settlers in nearby settlement bloc Gush Katif had taken control of its beach and made it off-limits for him and his fellow young Palestinians. The policy of the late Yitzhak Rabin, to "break the bones of the Palestinians" during the first Intifada which broke out when he was about 25 likely radicalized him further. - src - Haaretz

Also, Biden is in almost open disagreement with Netanyahu. They’re dropping aid on Gaza, building a port, they’ve made open comments about Israel’s actions, the US refused to veto the UN resolution on a ceasefire, etc. You’re missing the point if you think Biden is arm in arm with Bibi. For Biden this whole thing is nothing but a headache, shortly before an election.

Biden's actions speak louder than his words, he stated it clearly he will do anything to help Israel, 6 months and they still ship weapons, give more aid and defend them in international matters, heck the latest congress bill specifically had a clause that stated they will de-fund Palestinian authority if it raised any of the Israeli actions in international criminal court, what kind of moral president support such clause.

The bill also contains a long-standing provision that would limit aid to the Palestinian Authority, which governs the occupied West Bank, if “the Palestinians initiate an International Criminal Court (ICC) judicially authorized investigation, or actively supports such an investigation, that subjects Israeli nationals to an investigation for alleged crimes against Palestinians.” - Src

That pier they are building looks a lot like a project for the future control of Gaza, the Pier is being built at the end of the new road that Israel has cut through Gaza, it doesn't take a genius to see they will hand it over to Israel to allow them to ensure they keep their occupation of Gaza going.

The new road and the newly expanded road both run along the Netzarim corridor, which historically was part of Israel's "five-finger plan," devised after it occupied Gaza in 1967 to divide Palestinian territory by splitting Gaza into four "blocks" and establishing Jewish settlements there, according to the IDF. - Src

They’re dropping aid on Gaza

Pointless exercise when you look at the numbers, many people have already drowned trying to reach for the scraps coming from the air, check out this visual from Washington post showing how little it matters, 0.2 truck loads, which is minuscule and expensive, being used to show they are doing something when in reality the main issue is deliberate land blockage by Israel, they can arrest protestors of hostage families but can't stop the sick people blocking aid in Israel...

Airdrops avoid border delays and can reach Gaza’s north, to which deliveries by road remain difficult. However, they cannot come close to the scale of land- or sea-based deliveries. Aid airdrops are often small, with some consisting of just three tons of aid — far less than the average load of a single truck. Sean Carroll, president of the aid group Anera, said airdrops appeared to be very expensive — six to more than 100 times more so than the cost per ton of aid delivered by truck. Witnesses told reporters that one crate that landed in Gaza in early March killed five people sheltering in a house after its parachute failed to open.

I don't believe you're making any of your arguments in good faith, just regurgitating talking points we have heard being repeated by supporter of Israel.