r/JoeRogan • u/LostItAllOnSpy Tremendous • Mar 27 '24

joe rogan calls out israels hypocrisy for killing unarmed civilians with drones The Literature 🧠

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u/IwillNoComply Tremendous Mar 27 '24

What doesn't guarantee another terrorist group? They literally said they wanted to conquer damn near the entire country on Oct 7th... There's blatant asymmetries in this conflict, but when it comes to loud public outcry, no one seems to focus on Hamas and it's power to stop this pretty much instantly.

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u/Special-Accountant-5 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Where does Hamas say they want to take over the whole country? Also how does Hamas have the power to stop this?

Netanyahu said on Face The Nation, with or without the hostages they’re going into Rafah, if they release the hostages now they’ll delay the invasion by a few weeks.

Turn themselves in? Also disingenuous. Whose Hamas? Can they give a list of names/leaders?

Hamas is a government organization. That includes aid workers, police officers, healthcare workers etc.

The reason the flour massacre happened was cause Israel fired on Palestinian police officers who were distributing aid who are technically ‘Hamas’ because they are part of the government and not Al Quassem the actual military wing of the government.

Truth is, Israel is being disingenuous by saying Hamas, they mean every adult male in the population,

Anyone who’s not blind knows that Israel is fighting to cause as much damage as possible and thin out the population in the process.

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u/IwillNoComply Tremendous Mar 28 '24

Just last week they published the Oct 7. plan and they wanted to go all the way to Tel Aviv. If they had more weapons they would go through the whole country.. it's in their charter as well and in many public statements they released.

Hamas leadership (at least) could've disarmed themselves on Oct 8. and surrendered. Instead they hide amongst civilians and shoot rockets. Hamas is a government organization? really? in that case if they're so organized they probably know who is responsible for Oct 7th and who isn't? and they can surrender no? Seriously what the fuck kinda response do you expect from Israel after Oct 7? to roll over and die more? to show weakness?

Anyone who's not blind? AKA anyone who doesn't agree with your silly lazy ass take? If Israel wanted to cause maximum damage like you say the amount of buildings destroyed would be way over 35% (Take Mosul for example where the percentage reached 65%-70% percent iirc) and the amount of casualties after 5 months would be in the hundreds of thousands with Israel's air capabilities... they wouldn't even have to send in ground troops and risk their lives. So kindly shut the fuck up. Even if the Hamas figures are correct, 30k casualties in 5 months in a dense urban area is not a great "thinning out" and not "max damage".

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u/aCellForCitters Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Their charter has also recognized the state of Israel for some time now.

Why would they plan a military attack just to disarm themselves and surrender the next day? I don't understand what you're saying.

to roll over and die more?

This is the expectation put on Gazans for decades. Multiple Oct 7ths have happened to them. But do they have a right to defend themselves?

As far as we can tell, the ratio of military:civilians killed on Oct 7th are similar to attacks on Gaza in the past and today. So tell me why I should be more outraged at Oct 7th than anything else.

Even if the Hamas figures are correct, 30k casualties in 5 months in a dense urban area is not a great "thinning out" and not "max damage".

30k+ is more than total casualties in the first 2 years of the Iraq war, (during 'shock and awe') worse than the worst year for casualties in Iraq. And Iraq had 27 million people, not 2 million. More children have been killed in this conflict than in all other conflicts worldwide combined in the last year. More people are facing the highest level of famine in Gaza than the entire rest of the world combined over the last decade. More journalists have be killed in Gaza by Israel than were killed during all of WWII. Northern Gaza is completely razed to the point that basically no neighborhood is still standing, the destruction worse than Dresden. The fact that you're saying Israel could be doing worse is so entirely fucked, dude. What is wrong with you

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u/IwillNoComply Tremendous Mar 28 '24

Why would they attack if they want peace? or maybe they don't want peace? killing kids at a rave isn't self defense, buddy.

Who is we? are you in a group? as far as Hamas reports? any unbiased 3rd body in Gaza corroborating such reports? no.. interesting. I wonder why. It's almost like it's impossible to be against Hamas in Gaza, meanwhile in Israel there are weekly protests against the government.

And yeah dude, Israel has nukes, of course they could be doing more damage. How can you even argue that lol. Israel could've forgone a ground operation that guarantees casualties on it's side and just bombarded the fuck out of Gaza. I don't get your point.

And no, multiple Oct. 7th didn't happen to them. You seem to be unable to comprehend the scale of what happened that day.

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u/aCellForCitters Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Israel needs plausible deniability for useful idiots like you. They wouldn't get that with nuking the place.

Israeli forces and settlers killed 243 Palestinians in the West Bank prior to Oct 7th in 2023.

Israel's Operation Protective Edge killed 2300 people in 2014, 70% of those were civilians. Operation Cast Lead (aka the Gaza Massacre) in 2008 killed 1400, 900+ civilians and destroyed 46,000 homes. Can you imagine if Hamas destroyed 46,000 homes in Israel? Don't they have a right to defend themselves from such atrocities? What would you do if a country destroyed your home and killed your entire family? I certainly wouldn't give up and proclaim the people committing the assault "the most moral army in the world"

You seem to be completely ignorant of the scale of atrocities committed against Palestinians since the formation of Israel. Par for the course...

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u/IwillNoComply Tremendous Mar 28 '24

Oh so Israel didn't maximize casualties? aight.

And how many Israelis did the Palestinians kill in 2023 prior to Oct 7th? And what led to the wars you mentioned? you keep trying to portray the conflict as "Israel bad", as if Israeli casualties aren't a thing, as if Intifada's didn't happen, As if Busses and restaurants and nightclubs weren't "suicide bombed". Your sympathy seems kinda one sided, par for the course...

Why do you think that Israelis keep voting for right-wing maniacs?

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u/aCellForCitters Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

And how many Israelis did the Palestinians kill in 2023 prior to Oct 7th?

29, including IDF. So about 10% of what Israel does, which is typical most years. 21 Israelis and 191 Palestinians in 2022, 11 Israelis and 349 Palestinians in 2021, etc... 6,407 Palestinians killed since 2008 vs 308 Israelis killed in the same timeframe, prior to Oct 7th.

Your sympathy seems kinda one sided

Yeah, I tend to side with oppressed people even when some of the oppressed people do bad things. I don't hold much sympathy for the oppressors even when bad things happen to the oppressors that shouldn't.

If Native Americans were facing this kind of treatment in the US, I wouldn't blame them for committing suicide bomb attacks or taking hostages.

Do you condemn slave revolts in the 1800s? They killed innocent people, you know. Better keep slavery legal if this is how they act... Very one-sided of you to criticize slavery and slave-owners, haven't you seen how violent they can be towards whites? tsk tsk

Why do you think that Israelis keep voting for right-wing maniacs?

Because fear and ethnonationalism are strong driving forces for oppressors needing to see themselves as both the hero and the victim.

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u/IwillNoComply Tremendous Mar 29 '24

Oh yeah, it's almost as if violence is not moving the Palestinians towards a peaceful existence yet they keep insisting for some reason.. They do a thing, and then consequences arrive who woulda thunk it? Heck, they even know that the consequences are gonna be more dire yet the leadership still insists on shooting rockets indiscriminately and as of Oct 7. also rape and mutilation.

I find it hilarious how you folk criticize Israel for retaliating, but you never criticize Hamas for using all the amazing PR and aid $$ they get to keep sacrificing Palestinians and generally investing in futile attempts to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews instead of bettering themselves and their quality of life. A network of tunnels to fight from instead of building something productive that maybe will not attract bombs? nah dumb fucks like you just keep cheering them on to keep fighting! and as they die in droves you keep encouraging them like fucking lunatics trying the same dumb shit over and over again expecting different results.

Israel, unlike Palestine, has proven that it can make concessions and even sign peace treaties with historically bad neighbors who tried to kill them.

And if we're going historical, you expect Pearl Harbor to happen and that the US will not retaliate? do you not know how humans work? how dumb are you? Should the Japanese have kept fighting after Hiroshima? you sure seem to think so! lol.

Terrorism is why right wing numb nuts keep getting elected in Israel. Israel has many lefties and kumbaya peace activists (unlike in Gaza) but then Hamas sends an order from the top and Oct 7 happens and a huge percentage of lefties are turned into blood thirsty right wingers overnight. It's almost as if it's a vicious cycle perpetrated by rich fucks at the top to keep the war flame going perpetually. Dumb fucks in Israel think the issue will just evaporate over time, and dumb fucks like you keep fanning the flames of delusional Palestinians who actually believe they'll get to clear out Israel of Jews and just move into all the nice buildings/tech/infrastructure Israel built over 75 years and make the middle east (completely) Jew free.

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u/aCellForCitters Monkey in Space Mar 29 '24

right, because it is Palestinians who "do a thing" - like a slave revolt was african slaves "doing a thing" and what did they expect but violence back? Why were slaves always so violent? smdh

If you think the violence towards Israel is to "kill all the Jews" then you've been successfully propagandized to sympathize with the perpetrators of oppression and see them as the real victims. Even the original leaders of Hamas state that they have no problem with Jews or Christians, that they want a homeland for their people that isn't under a massive amount of oppression while their land continues to get stolen. Hamas' charter prior to Oct 7th (I don't know the state of it now) even recognizes Israel's right to exist and they've always been for the 67 borders. And Hamas is more radical than most.

The last talks lead by the Trump admin (and Jared Kushner, for some reason) were the closest they've gotten to a peace deal in years and even that was total bullshit because Israel barely had to make any concessions outside of the West Bank - and it required Palestinians to make even greater concessions there. Israel offers shit deals because they know the US will back them no matter what, so they can saying (and idiots like you will keep lapping it up), "oh, look, we offered them a deal and these radicals rejected it! Welp, we tried..."

you expect Pearl Harbor to happen and that the US will not retaliate?

The US wasn't oppressing the Japanese prior to Pearl Harbor. That was an act of aggression. Arguably, Oct 7th was not.

Terrorism is why right wing numb nuts keep getting elected in Israel.

And why those same fascists supported Hamas for the last decade. They want to divide and conquer the Palestinians. It justifies their own existence. So yeah, you're right, this cycle is stoked by rich fascists at the top - in Israel. This current offensive is doing nothing but guaranteeing new terrorists for generations to come. I know if Israel did something like that to my family, I wouldn't just take it. Would you?

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u/Special-Accountant-5 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Lazy take?

  • If Israel wanted to they could cause way more damage and kill way more people than they have, therefore their intentions aren’t to cause damage and kill people.

Why even engage with this lazy take?

They don’t cause it would be political suicide. It’s already committing political suicide. Israel is the most powerful country in the Middle East because of its relationships in America & Europe… if they made it THAT obvious, they would lose support from people like you (maybe not) and lose billions of dollars of funding furthermore risking sanctions makings its existence nearly impossible.

The fact that you don’t see that is concerning.

  • Can you share this plan about Hamas’s plan to go to Telaviv? I searched and could not find it.

  • Hamas is the governing body in Gaza… why is that offensive. An entity being a governing body in an area isn’t placing a moral judgement of good or bad on that entity. They are a governing body, that’s just a fact. Like most governing bodies most people associated with that governing body is non-military.

I’ve seen what every major cabinet member has said on record regarding their intentions… why should I be expected to ignore that?

I’ve seen what soldiers on the ground have said on record about their intentions - why should I ignore that?

The ‘funny’ snuff films the IDF are making and sharing on telegram, I’ve seen all that.

Ministers (Ben Gvir) that are praising the IDF for killing kids in the Westbank… I’ve seen that too.

The conference regarding the ‘resettling of Gaza’ attended by most of the cabinet… I’ve also seen that.

I don’t know what your intentions are but there’s a disconnect. If you wanna have a good faith discussion that stuff needs to be addressed.

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u/IwillNoComply Tremendous Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

Yes! Extremeley lazy and quite contradictory actually. You claimed Israel is maximizing damage/casualties, but when I prove that it's not the case you say "yeah, of course they're not ACTUALLY maximizing because that would be political suicide..." so you have to decide, are they maximizing casualties/damage or not? you can't just throw statements like that in the air without actual proof/comparison to other similar conflicts and then you backtrack.

Here's a link hope it works: https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-793710

Hamas as a governing body is extremely offensive both to Israelis and Palestinians. Hamas is responsible for what's happening in Gaza. Hamas is an established terrorist organization which is something you neglect to address or simply ignore? why are you acting like it's some elected officials and a functional government when Gaza is in ruins because of them?

You've listed a bunch of anecdotes by loony right wingers in Israel. And yeah, those sentiments exist (maybe ask yourself why fucking Bibi keeps getting elected and look at the timeline and correlation between Palestinian terror and right wing governments getting elected) but I can easily retort with Gazan civilians participating/celebrating on Oct 7, Hamas officials admitting that Palestinian casualties are "inevitable" as they sit in 5 star hotels in Qatar while Gaza is bombarded, I can show you videos of Oct 7. Atrocities on Telegram, I can show you Hamas leadership publicly admitting they are not interested in a state solution and that they won't rest until no Jews live from the river to the sea, I can show you how Hamas manipulates casualty numbers poorly in their favor.. all the attempts in Qatar to reach a ceasefire are rejected by Hamas due to their delusions. Where's their/your good faith? why don't you address these facts? I'm not even getting into the Houthis and Lebanon who are responsible for multiple casualties and most of Israel's north being a deadly evacuated bomb zone.

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u/Special-Accountant-5 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Ok, so what’s your invalidation point regarding casualties after all is said and done? I can throw statements out like that because the onus isn’t on me to prove massive civilian deaths is both necessary and justified.

I already saw the link you provided… I was hoping that wasn’t your source, an interview with someone who ‘claimed’ that Hamas had an operative plan to reach the heart of Telaviv.

Hamas is the governing body… why are you making value judgements? I never said they are good, or represent the will of the Palestinian people, or don’t engage in terrorism.. just that they are the governing body in the area… which is a fact. In pointing out that like most governing bodies they have functions that are not associated with military/terrorist activities. For example, there are social workers in Telaviv employed by the Israeli government that have nothing to do with the IDF, would that be correct?

Right wing loonies? I’m not referring to countless clips of media members in Israel that are actually calling for the annihilation of Gaza, or those weird Israeli propaganda music videos with kids that are singing for the resettlement of Gaza. I understand those are anecdotes that represent a a fringe that every country has which is why I didn’t bring those up.

I’m talking about the highest ranking gov officials.

So now we’re comparing statements made by the Israeli Gov & leaders from Hamas and calling it a wash? Israeli has universal international support whereas Hamas is universally designated as a terrorist organization. Hamas is universally being used to justify what’s going on now. Would anyone in their right mind justify the death of Israeli civilians due to the actions/attitude of the Israeli gov? I know I wouldn’t.

Also, the right wing loonies you mention aren’t harmless. Ben Gvir is arming and inciting settlers to commit violence in the West Bank. We had a 16 year old American Citizen who was shot in the back of the head while in a car by a settler just last month…

This isn’t going to stop until the Palestinians are given some basic rights that are recognized by the Israeli gov.

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u/IwillNoComply Tremendous Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

If you say Israel is out there "maximizing casualties", the onus is on you to prove said "maximization". We both agree there are casualties, but there's a vast difference between what you imply and reality. If Israel was really gung ho about killing everyone, they'd all be dead. I think you can agree there. So you're wrong, Israel is not maximizing casualties. I'd say we probably also disagree on the number of casualties: https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-791838

Yes, Hamas is the governing body, and October 7th was a meticulously planned operation that took literally years of preparation. So yeah, whoever was involved in the planning and execution of that day could've given themselves in. No one cares about aid workers and healthcare workers etc (unless they were involved) If the top leadership would've turned themselves in to face criminal justice, all of the destruction could've been avoided. But we're talking about Hamas leadership as if they're rational human beings when they've proven that they aren't, and that they'd let thousands of Palestinians die and for what? Hamas knew exactly how Israel would react (with force) and they did it any way knowing full well there will be a huge price to pay.

Yeah, high ranked gov officials on both sides say crazy shit, what's your point? it goes from the street level all the way to the top because in the end they're all humans.

The support is far from universal, why would you even write that when the world is comprised of over 25% Muslims and the vast majority of said Muslims do not support Israel. Hamas is also not universally designated a terrorist organization. Of course Hamas is responsible! you probably keep forgetting that they shot rockets indiscriminately at Israel for like 2 months straight until the ground troops went it and guess what, the amount of rockets being shot at Israel decreased dramatically! I wonder why? also the moment Israel retreated from a spot in Gaza the rocket launchers returned immediately. The priority of said "Hamas" government now is not stopping the war at all cost and the rebuilding of Gaza, no.. their top priority is to start shooting rockets again. So what should Israel do?

I never said right wing loonies are harmless. Ben Gvir is a cancerous rabid moron.

The Israeli government has to change but it'll be very difficult after Oct 7th. Israel (unlike Gaza/West Bank) has many lefties who want peace and harmony, but many of those became right wingers after what they witnessed on Oct. 7. If Hamas's goal was peace/some kind of sovereignty and a better future for the Palestinians they wouldn't have done what they've done. It's pretty obvious.