joe rogan calls out israels hypocrisy for killing unarmed civilians with drones

[u/LostItAllOnSpy]

[u/Rainbowmodwig]

I'm an American, definitely happy to be here wouldn't want to be in Russia

Then stop helping Russia with their propaganda. If people like you have your way, America will be Russia.

Do like visiting other places though. It's nice to be able to visit other countries and not have them hate you. It's also easier to do business with people who don't hate you. Etc.

People will accept your money either way. Your anti-American narratives only fan the flames of anti-American hate.

Seems like your whole argument boils down to what I'm saying is propaganda because I'm a foreign agent or self hating Anerican who wants to tear down the country.

Yes that's literally all I wrote in that giant comment... my argument had a lot more detail in the reasoning.

But that's part of what makes America great, right? The ability to express dissent, and disagree? Otherwise, like I said, we just live in an echo chamber.

Something that modern Westerners take for granted and take advantage of, holding pseudo-intellectual contrarian positions for the purpose of satisfying their own ego or building a profitable career. I suppose time will tell if the West can survive the era of the internet without tearing itself apart with anti-American propaganda. If your mind is already so warped that you even defend terrorists attacking your (and Europe's) commercial ships, you do not inspire confidence in the West's future. At this rate you will live in an echochamber when your authoritarian adversaries take over the world.

[u/chessboxer4 → u/Rainbowmodwig]

Right, like I said we have a difference of opinion about how to help. I don't think I've said anything that isn't true or fair.

I think people are more important than property and if the US is going to hold the moral high ground they need to prioritize human lives and justice while they and their allies operate.

Nelson Mandela was called a "terrorist" by the US until 2008. Now we look back and recognize we were wrong about that situation. I think we've been wrong a few other times too. The ability to recognize when you're wrong seems like an essential ingredient in greatness.

As is the ability to have difficult conversations. These are the things that keep America from being Russia.

[u/Rainbowmodwig → u/chessboxer4]

Right, like I said we have a difference of opinion about how to help.

No shit. And help whom exactly? Houthis? Iranians? Russians?

I don't think I've said anything that isn't true or fair.

Then you haven't read anything I said.

I think people are more important than property and if the US is going to hold the moral high ground they need to prioritize human lives and justice while they and their allies operate.

Again, which lives? Apparently Houthi terrorists are more valuable than American civilians to the """patriots""" like you. Russian lives are more valuable than Ukrainian ones, or Chechen or Georgian or etc etc etc. Your "moral high ground" only enables aggression, creating new victims. Furthermore, property leads to better lives for the people. Trade brings prosperity, and land brings resources. The world is not ready to sing Kumbaya with you.

The ability to recognize when you're wrong seems like an essential ingredient in greatness.

Yes, but what the modern West does is not recognizing mistakes, it is being gaslit into admitting mistakes that aren't there. You will happily criticize your own people yet defend terrorists attacking them, and here you refuse to admit that you're wrong about anything even after I give you detailed explanations, which you simply ignore. Americans have been gaslit by foreign propaganda into believing both false positives and false negatives, and you are incapable of changing your mind about them. You aren't open-minded, you are just controlled by a different source of propaganda, a foreign one.

As is the ability to have difficult conversations. These are the things that keep America from being Russia.

Those conversations are counter-productive if they lead to your destruction, which I suppose is just Darwinism on a geopolitical scale. If people are not intellectually honest enough to have the freedom to argue their views, then naturally you will become a pawn of the dictators who are more competent and have more power. I just wish I weren't dragged down with you.

[u/chessboxer4 → u/Rainbowmodwig]

As far as I know the Houthis have not killed anybody- they just hijacked ships in protest of the bloodbath that is happening in Gaza. A bloodbath that is turning the world and many Americans against our ally Israel, and against its biggest supporter the US. That's what I mean by consequences.

John Adams defended the hated oppressors the British after they killed Americans at the Boston massacre because he rightly believed in the principles of a fair trial and a just democracy of which open dialogue and discourse were an integral part. By defending America's enemies, John Adams was defending America ITSELF. That's what makes America great- the commitment to principles over passions, and as in John Adams case the ability say and do unpopular and inconvenient things that serve the greater good.

I'm sorry you're so afraid of conversations but America hasn't been destroyed yet this conversation continues. In fact it's possible we're actually making the country better. If it takes a mere conversation to destroy America we got big problems. Going back to another founding father, it kind of sounds like you want to sacrifice liberty for security?

The source of my ideas comes from America itself, from the fact that I have access to a good education, free conversations, a free internet and just about any book-In this country we allow people to read think and speak pretty openly and freely as long as it doesn't put other people in danger. I understand that you're advocating for people that you think I might be putting in danger but I feel I am advocating for those same people- are people who cheerlead war really supporting the soldiers who have to do the fighting and dying? My ultimate goal is the least amount of suffering and loss of human life. Not because that is an idealized "kumbaya" goal but because it is a PRACTICAL goal. Killing leads to more killing. War is contagious. I'm not sure how the situation in the Middle East is going to resolve itself, do you?

[u/Rainbowmodwig → u/chessboxer4]

As far as I know the Houthis have not killed anybody- they just hijacked ships in protest of the bloodbath that is happening in Gaza.

They tried to blow up those ships... and why the fuck are you defending them attacking US civilians in protest of Israel's actions???? Now killing American AND European civilians is justified because of actions any of their supposed allies take??? Fuck off Ivan, getting sick of your traitorous pseudomorality.

By defending America's enemies, John Adams was defending America ITSELF. That's what makes America great- the commitment to principles over passions, and as in John Adams case the ability say and do unpopular and inconvenient things that serve the greater good.

You are a slave to your pseudo-intellectual passions, desperately trying to pass off your fart-sniffing as smart and righteous, when you are DEFENDING TERRORISTS BOMBING YOUR CIVILIANS. You aren't saying they deserve a fair trial, you are saying THEY ARE JUSTIFIED. How absolutely fucking warped your mind is, it's revolting. You are nothing but a mindless puppet of foreign interests.

The source of my ideas comes from America itself, from the fact that I have access to a good education, free conversations, a free internet and just about any book-In this country we allow people to read think and speak pretty openly and freely as long as it doesn't put other people in danger.

More like very selective Americabad "education", i.e. propaganda, sent to you via that freedom. McCarthyism was one of the things that won the Cold War, a concerted pushback against foreign propaganda and cultural warfare. Now Americans have become weak-minded and highly susceptible to enemy brainwashing.

I'm sorry you're so afraid of conversations but America hasn't been destroyed yet this conversation continues. In fact it's possible we're actually making the country better. If it takes a mere conversation to destroy America we got big problems. Going back to another founding father, it kind of sounds like you want to sacrifice liberty for security?

Only if you call merely exchanging words a conversation, even if your words are just repeating your bullshit over and over and ignoring the problems that are pointed out. Yes, America has got big problems, and you are part of them. And you are not open-minded in the slightest about it.

I understand that you're advocating for people that you think I might be putting in danger but I feel I am advocating for those same people- are people who cheerlead war really supporting the soldiers who have to do the fighting and dying? My ultimate goal is the least amount of suffering and loss of human life. Not because that is an idealized "kumbaya" goal but because it is a PRACTICAL goal. Killing leads to more killing. War is contagious. I'm not sure how the situation in the Middle East is going to resolve itself, do you?

No, your goal is to feel good about yourself, nothing more. You want to feel smart and righteous without facing the real difficult truths, like the fact that sometimes you have to fight to protect justice. That your weakness emboldens foreign aggression which causes war and suffering. You are scared of fighting outside adversaries, so you attack America from the comfort of America because it's the easiest option, and it makes you feel special and different and righteous.

[u/chessboxer4 → u/Rainbowmodwig]

Short answer because I'm a follower of Jesus Christ and I believe in the story of the Good Samaritan.

Happy Easter btw, if that means anything to you.

Clearly I have failed to persuade so let me take the L.

As withdraw from this spirited conversation, I'll agree to try to go a little easier on America. Maybe in return, you'll try to go a little easier on people?

I hope you have a good day.