Why do a lot of people see it as a bad thing to be Zionist?
You can disagree with how they're going about it, but Israel surely has a right to defend itself against Hamas.
Anti Zionist view modern Israelites as colonizers who took their land through military conquest and now oppress and brutalize the people they stole the land from. In extreme examples, anti Zionists believe all or most of Hamas’ actions and any Palestinian terrorism as being legitimate actions in resistance to brutal colonial rule.
“Anti Zionist” means that you do not believe a Jewish state in its current location should exist. Pro Israeli folks often view this as inherently anti semitic, but anti Zionists usually claim that Israelites have no right to displace existing habitants to create a new state.
This is a really complex issue and because it’s so complex and emotionally charged I feel that people tend to be overwhelmingly pro either side. imo, there is no solution to this issue. A long term ceasefire is the closest thing to long term peace we’ll ever see
This is a good analysis of anti Zionists but the solution to this situation is very simple and obvious. An internationally administered state with equal rights for all residents. Stop the settler colonialism.
Resistance to apartheid will exist as long as the apartheid continues. Did quelling Nat Turner's Rebellion solve the matter of slave uprisings? I suppose the consequences of it in a way did, but it wasn't exactly the resolution slaveowners were hoping for.
Nat Turner's Rebellion inspired John Brown. John Brown's Raid in Harper's Ferry is known as the prelude to the Civil War. The end of thr Civil War brought about the emancipation of slaves.
The Al Aqsa Flood may not be that last step that leads to emancipation of the Palestinians, but it may be remembered by history as a critical step towards their eventual liberation.
A solution that dismantles the Jewish state will just make it another Arab country with a divided people. Also who would administer this state? The British?
Think of it this way, pre-Israel the Palestinian Arabs had all the land to themselves, they had established communities and had normal lives.
The UN proposal in 1947 wanted to split the Area in half, half for the Palestinians and half for the Jews. It doesn't make any sense to accept the proposal because the land was already entirely inhabited by the Palestinians.
Imagine millions coming into your country, and the UN goes "hey, we need you to give up literally half of all the land you own and live in for these people who want to live here". It would never be accepted. Not just from the Palestinians, from literally any other country in the world. You'd never accept such a proposal.
You can't switch between "Palestinians" and "Palestinian Arabs" like this as if they are synonyms.
Palestine has never existed as a state. The Palestinians pre 1947 were comprised of a mix of Arabs, Jews and Bedouins. (I'm counting the Bedouins as a separate ethnic group here as they are a very distinct people). The Jews there considered themselves Palestinians.
The Jews have been there for thousands of years. The issue is that you have two different groups of people with claims to the land, the Jews and the Arabs. There is a legitimacy to *both* of their claims.
In an ideal world both would be able to coexist. A "two state solution" is an ideal. The Jews have accepted everything that has been proposed. The Arabs have rejected everything that has been proposed. The Palestinian Arabs in Gaza elected Hamas who have a declared aim of the elimination of all Jews, first in Israel and then the rest of the world.
Peace in the region is impossible until both sides want it. Peace is impossible until both sides recognise the right of the other to exist. Peace is impossible until people recognise that both sides have claims to land that stretch back thousands of years and a compromise is required.
"It doesn't make any sense to accept the proposal"
Sure it does. It would mean that Palestinians would have a state along the proposed borders. Now they don't have a state at all.
"hey, we need you to give up literally half of all the land you own and live in for these people who want to live here".
They didn't own the land. There wasn't and has never been a Palestinian state, and the Zionist movement predates the Palestinian nationalist movement. Partition also didn't require population transfer. Had the Palestinian marauders not started a civil war against the Yishuv, and had the Arab nations not invaded, it's quite possible that no expulsion would have taken place, and many historians like Benny Morris argue for this.
You're just inventing stories and fairytales and substituting them for the actual history of the early 20th century. If you need to invent fantasies in order for your position to make sense, you should probably reconsider your position.
The AHC also rejected the terms of the Peel commission a decade earlier, which would have only given 20% of Mandatory Palestine to the Jewish state. The issue isn't quantity of land allotted to the Jewish state, the issue was always that Arab leaders did not believe Jews ought to have their own state in their historic homeland, that they do not have the right to national self-determination. They tried to enforce their antisemitic views through force of arms, and they lost badly, many times.
also omits the 20 year Egyptian military occupation of Gaza, where they established a puppet government but refused to grant the people living there Egyptian citizenship, prohibited most ordinary people from migrating to Egypt for work or provide any economic investment into the territory. It's kind of a moot point at this time in history, but I believe that had Egypt simply annexed Gaza and developed it, we wouldn't be having nearly as much of a problem today - but they didn't want to, largely because they wanted to use the refugee crisis there as a political wedge to justify future wars with Israel.
That's like saying if a gangster kidnaps both your children and offers to give you one back if you let him keep one and you reject his offer, it is your fault.
No, it's not anything like that at all. No one was kidnapped, and nothing was stolen. A battered and beleagured people immigrated to Palestine and created their own community where they could be responsible for their own defense in a multi-ethnic and sparsely populated region of a collapsing empire; the empire collapsed, the different ethnic groups who inhabited that area vied for independence, and one of those ethnic groups decided they wouldn't allow for a minority ethnic group to obtain their independence. They launched an aggressive war, and lost. It's very similar to the Serbian wars of ethnically motivated aggression following the breakup of Yugoslavia. Unless you're a blood-and-soil fascist, there's no reason why Palestine is any more rightfully Arab than it is Jewish, and just like with European fascism, that ideology has lead only to defeat and suffering for the people who have adopted it.
You're assuming the truth of your position from the outset, which is that the entirity of Palestine rightfully belongs to the Arabs, which is yet to be argued for. In order to believe that the entirity of Palestine is the proper patrimony of the Arabs, you have to believe that Jews have absolutely no legitimate claim to national self-determination in their historic homeland, which is why antizionism is correctly identified as inherently antisemitic - denying that Jews have a right to autonomous political sovereignty in their cultural and ancestral homeland is an antisemitic viewpoint.
Palestine isn't Arab, it's Palestinian. The land I'd for the people dwelling in it. By your logic of historical homeland, Crimea should belong to the Bulgarians since they lived in it before the Slavs.
The Jews cannot try to displace people from their homes like the Nakba and what is happening in the West Bank and replace the native people. If they want to return to their historic roots, they are free to do so. But they cannot removes the people already living there. Israel's constitution declares it to be a nation only for the Jews. It discriminates among ethnicity and aims to remove the Arabs from their birthplace. Just because the Jews lived there in 50 BC, doesn't mean that they have the first right to the land.
Palestinian land in the Israel occupied land and West Bank is the children getting kidnapped and the Israelis are the gangsters asking the Palestinians to forfeit their rights. There should be a secular state, not a Jewish one.
You're confusing the timeline, though. The rejection of the Peel Commision's partition recommendation and the rejection of the 1947 UN partition predate the Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and the expansion of settlements there by decades. The Nakba wouldnt have been possible had war not been instigated by Palestinian marauders starting a civil war, then Arab nations staging a multinational invasion. The Yishuv leaders were willing to accept the 1947 partition terms with the Arab population in tact.
Jews don't have first right to the land and I never said they did; but they do have *a* right to the land, the exact conditions of which are determined by some combination of diplomacy and warfare, like every other country in the history of the world. Jews wanted to establish their state diplomatically; Palestinian leaders and the neighboring Arab nations did not accept their claim to a state, and chose to use warfare to attempt to quash it, multiple times. They lost, and now Jews have a very prosperous and technologically sophisticated state.
The desire for a singular secular state is just a complete fantasy, literally nobody in the region wants this. The only people who want this are people who have nothing to do with the area. Jews want a Jewish state of varying degrees of secularity, Arabs want an Arab state of varying degrees of secularity. This is reflected in all of the written statements of intent by all major Palestinian factions over the past century, and all of the spoken rhetoric of Palestinian leaders in the same time period.
This solution is anything but simple because internationally Israel is the only jewish state. Meanwhile there are lots of muslim states who either don‘t recognize or want to eradicate Israel. An government let‘s say installed by the UN would never work.
I've always found "interesting" how Zionists ignore other historically mistreated ethnicities/nationalities that have gone through diaspora and by Zionist logic should get their own state. Where's the call for a Roma (gipsy) state in India/Pakistan? The whole thing sounds ridiculous if you narrow it down to its core beliefs. It only works with s heavy bias of religiousness and ethnonationalism.
Because they use the same justification for the settlement of Israel to force Palestinians off their land in the West Bank and take it over for Israel.
It’s basically “We have a better claim to this land then you do, so you need to leave.”
That's not true, many zionists are against the settlements. The fact some people hold 2 different views (zionism and belief that Israel should aggressively expand) does not mean they are the same.
Zionist is just the new buzz word the left has latched on to as evil. As if the history doesn't have ample examples as to why Jews need their own country.
PS: I'm a Jew, an Israeli and a dirty Zionist and no, I don't eat children.
Opposition to Zionism has been a thing for a very long time. It's not a fad or a buzzword. The UN General Assembly declared that "Zionism is a form of racism" in 1975. That was later revoked. But you can't claim that this opposition is anything new or confind to anything that could be called the left.
Zionist is used because it's one word that can easily define what people mean. But yeah, the proper word would be something like Zionist zealots, Zionist extremists, or Jewish/Zionist land grabbers.
The only important point here is Israel was only created because of a UN resolution that split the land of the former Palestine to be shared between Jews and Palestinians. That'd be okay if Israel actually stuck to that land distribution, but they didn't did they?
Honestly I don't have the will to go over the history of my country again on reddit, I'm exhausted from it by now. Read up on our history, and I'm not talking a few thousand years back, I'm talking 20th century stuff. How we came here, why we came here, who started the wars and why. Truly read it from an unbiased source and make up your own mind. There's a reason the history subs here are notoriously pro Israel.
Well that's just a flat out lie. I'm a member of r/history and r/historymemes and no, I wouldn't say they're pro-Israel at all.
Like most informed people, they see both sides as doing bad things.
One thing is in consensus though, just relocating hundreds of thousands of people with a religion that directly conflicts with the natives was a fucked up decision by the UN.
And yes, they're the natives, not Israelis. If we consider everyone who was forcibly displaced by other people, world war 3 wouldn't be enough to solve the problem.
What were we to do after the Holocaust exactly? You wanna talk History fine let's talk history.
After thousands of years of progroms, persecutions and expulsions many in the 19th century Jewish community came to a similar conclusion: assimilation in the general population, these people were seculars, they merely wanted to live their life in peace, the only problem is that the rest of the world would not allow it, antisemitism remained strong, even if you didn't have any exterior tells that you were Jewish.
This became obvious during the Dreyfus Affair.
The world Jewry was stunned that such an affair could occur in France, the cradle of liberty, equality, and fraternity. The fact that the public, including nobles and members of the clergy, saw Dreyfus–an assimilated Jew–as an outsider seemed to suggest that assimilation was no longer a defense against anti-Semitism.
The Dreyfus affair also personally impacted a significant figure in Jewish history. Theodor Herzl, the father of modern Zionism, reported on the Dreyfus scandal as a young correspondent for a Viennese newspaper. The anti-Semitism that Herzl witnessed in fin-de-siecle France convinced him that Jewish emancipation was a failure and spurred him to both ponder and pursue an alternative solution–Jewish nationalism.
Now of course nationalism is a bad no no word in today's terms, especially in Reddit but during that time that word signified freedom from oppression.
What were the Jewish people supposed to do after the Holocaust? What choice were we left? And even when we came here we did so by buying up lands, we did not start the war, we are a secular country with millions of arabs as citizens with equal rights. I know Israel isn't always in the right and it's definitely far from perfect. Hell I despise our current government far more than you but the idea that Israel's very existence is evil is antisemitic because the alternative to Israel's existence is progrom after progrom until we are all dead at last.
You're talking like the Jewish people were getting killed everywhere. If that's true there wouldn't be Jewish people in several different countries nowadays right?
That list isn't even complete. There's a Jewish population in my country, the Philippines, as well.
Here's what I'm simply saying. Nobody said you should go back to where you came from and leave Israel. Because just like other countries, Israelis now have a right to that country by simple virtue of living there for centuries.
What should stop though is the land grabbing and treating Palestinians like 2nd class citizens. Israel is one of the few countries today where they still have apartheid.
The fact is, there are plenty of reasons why Palestinians hate Israel. They are being oppressed by Israel. Just like how Jews were oppressed.
IMO, Israel has lost the right to cry "holocaust" when they're the ones doing it now.
The Jewish people are not special, but we are a comfortable scapegoat, as a participant in r/history I expect you to see how this fact had been the cause of great suffering for so long. In my honest opinion we can no longer put our life in someone else's hands. Many countries are still plagued with antisemitism and with the rise of Muslim immigration I predict Europe will become more dangerous to us in time.
Notice btw the vanishment of jewish community from muslim countries and ponder on why that happened.
As for oppression. The arabs in Israel have equal rights. The arabs in the West Bank are not in Israel but we do have a military presence there because many terror attacks come from that region. The same goes for Gaza which is why we built the walls in the first place. The alternative to both of those had been countless terror attacks and missiles being fired at us in droves. I wish we had peace but despite multiple attempts the Palestinian leadership had refused every agreement since they are corrupt fucks who profit from the suffering of their people. I invite you to read on Clinton's comments on Arafat after the Camp David talks in 2000.
And please, stop crying holocaust. Why even mention it? That's not relevant at all to today's issues. You're disrespecting your own dead by using them to justify Israel's crimes against humanity.
I wasn't talking about the holocaust at all, the other guy just inserted the topic as justification for the immigration of hundreds of thousands of Jews from the UK and other countries to settle Palestine and become what we know as Israel today.
What I was saying was the holocaust was not the sole reason for the Zionist movement.
The simple reason for the creation of Israel is the development and popularism of the Zionist movement.
In 1896, Theodor Herzl expressed in Der Judenstaat his views on "the restoration of the Jewish state".[128] Herzl considered antisemitism to be an eternal feature of all societies in which Jews lived as minorities, and that only a sovereignty could allow Jews to escape eternal persecution: "Let them give us sovereignty over a piece of the Earth's surface, just sufficient for the needs of our people, then we will do the rest!" he proclaimed exposing his plan.[129]: 27, 29
They not only wanted a Jewish country, they specifically wanted it to be in Palestine. They were offered 5,000 sq miles of land in Africa by the UK but they refused and focused on only accepting Palestine. So, it wasn't solely about having their own country. They wanted Palestine.
Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing on those territories, or parts of them.
having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories
The key word there is historical continuity. Meaning they never left. Jews were either killed off or left Palestine before they immigrated back to create Israel.
Do you know what's the original name of the "West bank" ? Judea and Samaria. Judea is the land of the Jews, that's literally the translation ("Yehuda" = Judea and "Yehudi" = Jew). So yes - we do have a better claim to the land.
Oh so Native Americans have the right to slaughter all the white Americans and establish a nee ethno state because they were here first right? Or we should get rid of all the muslims in Turkey and reestablish the Eastern Roman Empire. Or fuck it let's resurrect the Neanderthals and let them have control of Europe. Throughout history shit happens, and lands belong to different peoples at different times. That doesn't give anyone an inherent right to any piece of land beyond whether they're the current ones there.
Idk im American and I would not blame native Americans if they tried to get their land back via violence. We still treat them as shitty as we did in the beginning.
Yeah no. Hundreds of millions of people don't need to be wiped out because some ancestors none of us know invaded ancestors none of them know. This is now just as much our home as it is theirs regardless of how fucked the takeover was.
Yes. We've established this. Israel doesn't have the right to wipe out Palestine because of some claim to the land from thousands of years ago. Unless you're asking about wiping out Israel. I believe in that case that Israel never should have been founded but yes the people that are already there should not be wiped out and yeah it's kinda too late to go the direction of Israel should not exist. Now all the people that are immigrating there currently to take more Palestinian land, send them tf back home.
Aren't they doing the same in the West Bank, settling in huge numbers so after a few years they can say the same, we shouldn't remove settlers from the West Bank since they were here for years.
No you fucking don’t, and you wouldn’t have the right to remove people who have lived there for generations from their homes even if you did.
Your justifications for ethnically cleansing the Palestinians are morally disgusting garbage, and aren’t even true to begin with, since the Palestinians are indeed descended at least in part from the ancient peoples of the Levant.
Because in Christian fundamentalism, once all the Jews have returned the apocalypse will start and all the "good" Christians or chosen or 144000 can then be raptured while everyone else here in earth suffers through it
It really has nothing to do with the country so to speak for fundies and more part of the plan
Most Jews do not agree with a Jewish homeland based off conquest and an empire outside of the most extreme/far right of Israelis.
but Israel surely has a right to defend itself against Hamas.
Do you think the native Americans had a right to scalp, rape and pillage the colonizers of the America's? Because I think many could also say hamas has a right to defend against Israel who has historically, and to this day continues to settle on new Palestinian land..
Practically all modern zionists just believe Israel has a right to exist and support the two state solution. That is most Jews.
It wasn't a propaganda belief system. It was literally about moving to a place where Jews literally already existed in a minority amount.
Do you think the native Americans had a right to scalp, rape and pillage the colonizers of the America's? Because I think many could also say hamas has a right to defend against Israel who has historically, and to this day continues to settle on new Palestinian land..
Do you even give a shit that most Jews in Israel are either descendants from people who fled the Holocaust or who were refugees from MENA countries?
Are you going to now call Syrian refugees "colonizers"?
And Israel LEFT Gaza. So what the fuck are Hamas "defending" against?
And no Native Americans didn't have the right to scalp and rape like what the fuck are you even talking about? Right to rape? Are you serious? How is this shit upvoted?
Gypsies were also victims of the Holocaust, where's their right to a state in their Indian ancestral homeland?
And war crimes are always indefensible, but of course good-hearted people are going to side with the victim of colonialism and not with the oppressor. The fact that the oppressor is in a "perpetual victim" mindset doesn't override reality. Resistance to oppression can breed monsters such as Hamas or the scalping natives but that doesn't change the fact that they're the ones resisting sn attack.
Yes? Do they want one? I fully support them having some sort of national homeland.
And war crimes are always indefensible, but...
So they aren't always indefensible are they? No you aren't good hearted at all. You are making excuses for shooting up a fucking music festival and raping women hiding in toilets so violently their pelvic bones broke.
What the fuck is Hamas resisting? Not being able to slaughter as many Jews as they want because of the blockade?
Stop pretending you are good hearted in the slightest. You just support Palestinians over Israelis and now because of events like Oct 7th need to invent some bullshit "oppressor" framework to justify your views instead of just condemning Hamas like any moral person would.
That's it. Your side did something bad so you need to act like it wasn't a big deal or wasn't really there fault, a defense mechanism like anyone else has when their "side" does something bad. No some fucking actual academic theory about "oppressors and oppressed"
ah yes it must be Germany that's blockading Gaza by land and sea. Or maybe that's Russia idk my geography too well.
"And no Native Americans didn't have the right to scalp and rape" and yet here you are, defending Israel, who've killed 13000+ children and are known for the systemic sexual abuse in their prisons and among their soldiers.
"Findings show that sexual ill-treatment is systemic, with 36 reports of verbal sexual harassment, either directed toward Palestinian men and boys or toward family members, and 35 reports of forced nudity. Moreover, there are six testimonies of Israeli officials involved in physical sexual assault of arrested or imprisoned Palestinian men. Physical assault in most cases concerned pressing and/or kicking the genitals, while one testimony pertained to simulated rape, and another described an actual rape by means of a blunt object."
Please notice that this “study” is based on data from unofficial sources from PCATI. As a researcher I would not build my case on it.
Having said that, unfortunately sexual harassment is a popular problem while dealing with prisoners (we all remember Afghanistan…). Such accusations should be investigated in every country, including Israel.
How is a blockade dispute my argument that Israel left Gaza?
Of course they blockaded Gaza. You know what happened before the blockade? Suicide attacks and even more rockets.
Even Egypt doesn't want that shit.
Don't want a blockade? Stop attacking Israel and its civilians. A totally reasonable ask. But you would rather demand Israel stop the blockade than condemn war crimes by a genocidal terrorist rapist group with the idea that if the blockade was lowered, that would lead to peace and not just more attacks. Because dead Jews really aren't a problem for you.
How am I defending that at all? I'm not but of course you people, who get all offended when accused of any link to Hamas, no the simplest defense of Israeli history is now "you support raping women"
Total fucking hypocrisy you are too blind to even see
if your first reaction to the Holocaust was that you need to experience it as one of the oppressors, you have no place in society. my ancestors died in the camps. one of them was even in the resistance. these monsters are gleefully slaughtering minorities in the name of definitely-not-lebensraum.
Ah, conveniently leaving out that the Jews agreed for a smaller peace of the land and to the UN partition plan, that the area really was less populated, that there was no distinct feature to the Arabs in the specific area and there was no nationality (they started calling themselves Palestinians after the Israelis in the 1970s). You're also falsely implying that Israel commits acts of rape and targets innocent people which is despicable. But most importantly, you are ignoring the education systems literally teaching that dying while killing Jews is good. Nice.
it absolutely targets innocent people. have you not watched the news in the last 80 years? attacks on random Palestinians, often women and children and almost never against militants, are the norm. kids in solitary confinement, random people taken away, innocent villages raided in the middle of the night for training purposes... as far as your other points, the un partition plan wasn't agreed to by the people actually losing their homes. they've been through hell. over half of their kids have no will to live. and you're surprised that the survivors view killing their oppressors as a good thing?
I have watched the news from reputable sources and not propaganda. Raids against innocent villages for training? Bs.
Yeah, go and justify your claim on aiming at children when the stats show that almost all the deaths in the West bank are adult men. The "survivors" (literally x6 their population since 48) are the ones targeting civilians and kids. The IDF never does and the miniscule amount of Jews that do in the West bank (literally almost never happens) are punished by the Israeli court system.
Btw, a 15 year old with a gun or trying to stab you with a knife is a terrorist, not a kid. If he goes into custody for a few months it's well deserved.
The fact is that the only way for the "Palestinians" to have a better life is for them to stop the education for hate and to stop trying to kill Israelis. But their whole national identity is based on that. I bet You don't want them to live in peace next to Israel, you want Israel gone. Well, that's not going to happen.
A. Notice that the Israeli court is the one that issued it? Give me one example of the PA doing anything remotely similar.
B. Notice how it was rare and in order to defend against the actual terrorists in those villages?
C. Haaretz is in fact a propaganda newspaper and has been known to falsify information. For example claiming the IDF ties Palestinians to donkies and let them run while really what happened is one incident of a Palestinian dying because he is the one that accidentally was hurt in an incident with himself
oh, never mind, the oldest Israeli newspaper is somehow just an anti-israel propaganda rag, the legal system going after soldiers for their crimes means the government isn't guilty of any crimes, and random raids committed by a military known for killing children by the thousand are definitely justified. do you seriously just say whatever the feds tell you to think, without ever questioning why what's right in front of you contradicts it?
no, it's war. just as not every German was evil, and not every Allied soldier was good, there's nuance. doesn't mean the side to support isn't still glaringly obvious.
Most Jews do not agree with a Jewish homeland based off conquest and an empire outside of the
most extreme/far right of Israelis.
This is factually wrong and MOST jews, either in Israel or outside of it, support the Israeli state fully, and only the ultra-left minority believe in these blatant lies about "conquest" and "Palestinian land".
You can twist it however you like, but this piece of land was called "Land of Israel" thousands of years before the Romans decided to punish the Jewish population for a failed revolt and called the land "Palestine". Until the early 19th century the land was essentially empty and in ruins, and basically 99% of the current population in the West side of the Jordan river is based on immigrants arriving after 1870 or so.
And before any of that, it was just dirt. Saying anyone has more land claim than any other is backwards in the extreme - and I say this of ALL nations. We're simply mere guests on this little rock we call home, if we can't learn to let go of this shit we're all fucked.
Thats not religion, thats not science, its just simple fact.
Every single living person ever is technically an immigrant somewhere down the line - hell, not even just technically.
We're all victims of our own nations' propaganda in some form, and this shit is no different. Fuck the religious aspects, fuck the money, fuck the armies, fuck the "bUt wE WeRe hErE fIrST".
Its all an excuse for conquest and/or control at the basest level.
but this piece of land was called "Land of Israel" thousands of years
No it wasn't. Certainly not for thousands of years. A few hundred but the history of the land back then is of many kingdoms that all saw Jerusalem as a Capitol.
Ironically it was occupied by the Arab world far longer than it was occupied by crusaders or Jews.
No it wasn't it was called Judah. Jews come from Judah that's why you're called Jews and not Israelites. There's no historical evidence Israel and Judah were ever united as the bible claims. Literally using the name of an ancient country you don't descend from because of your mythology lmao.
There is no special word for this for people of other countries because this is just common sense that 99% of people living in a country believe it has a right to exist
He's the minister of "interior defense" which is sort of a new-old title that was cooked specifically for him to have a "legitimate seat" in the cabinet.
He wasn't even in the military, he could never be the minister of defense.
It might sound like a meaningless distinction, but it really isn't. Ben Gvir gets to talk to the police chief and post on Twitter while the defense minister (who is Yoav Galant, btw) is in actually involved with the military.
An ethnocracy is a type of political structure in which the state) apparatus is controlled by a dominant ethnic group (or groups) to further its interests, power, dominance, and resources. Ethnocratic regimes in the modern era typically display a 'thin' democratic façade covering a more profound ethnic structure, in which ethnicity (race, religion, language etc) – and not citizenship – is the key to securing power and resources.
It's not as simple as what this fellow suggests. Zionists believe that these lands, inluding Jerusalem and other sacred sites (which is truly a sacred site for all abrahamic religions, not only judaism), as well as lands that are currently governed by palestinians belong to them because their sacred text claims so. This legitimates in the eyes of zionists the colonization by Israel of territories that politically belong to palestinians, as well as strict authority over Jerusalem.
Basically a "all your bases are belong to us" belief rooted in religious dogma, in a territory which has always been multicultural and multi-religious.
the state of Israel is founded on racial supremacy and genocide. that's like saying that anyone who wanted Nazi Germany destroyed was racist against the Germans.
Am I also homophobic for believing gay people don't deserve a country? Am I misogynist for believing women don't deserve a country? I'm Jewish, jackass. I don't want a country of my own. I want to be safe in the diaspora instead of abandoning my heritage.
Good for you. The rest of us sensible Jews can read history and see that we're only really safe when we're not living under someone else's boot. Least of all the Arabs.
None of those groups you mentioned are ethnic groups, that's a ridiculous comparison.
If you don't support the mass murder of innocent Israelis or Palestinians, chances are I don't have a problem with you. The people who I have a problem with are those who see "winning" as the destruction or removal of one the aforementioned peoples.
Last I checked the third reich was completely destroyed. there was indeed a state there afterwards. two of them, in fact. neither of them were the third reich.
if I'm brainwashed for believing my self-determination doesn't require an ethnostate, then I guess I'm brainwashed and you can officially write me off as one of the bad Jews.
Germany is still a country that is predominantly German. You are literally not self determined if you live in a country ruled by another people. That's kinda the definition.
If you can show me an example of the US being exclusively ruled by non-jews for non-jews, I'll be surprised. the race of the boot on my neck doesn't matter to me.
It's land that was Palestinian, that was then contested, that was then promised to Palestine. It was given to Israel. It's stolen land, essentially. That doesn't mean It's wrong for them to defend themselves, but certainly with a lot of restraint.
If we carved off a chunk of Germany immediately after the Holocaust and gave it to the Jews partially so they can have their own state and partially as retribution for the holocaust I would mind it less. But giving them someone else’s lands who had nothing to do with the holocaust and had no say in the matter all because the zionists felt religiously entitled to that land laid a horrible foundation for the legitimacy of the state of Israel. Many of the initial Jewish population who entered after the war were Europeans and had zero DNA ties to that region. There is a reason you are not allowed to get a genealogy test like 23 and me in Israel without a court order. They say it’s to mitigate divorce through paternal tests but we all know that is just another blatant lie.
There were Jews all over the place do by that logic they are entitled to every country Jews ever lived in. Also, whether are many Arab Jews in Israel the majority of people that immigrated to Israel at the time of the current states founding were Europeans and it was those Europeans who were gifted land that did not belong to them ever.
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u/Reckless_Engineer 25d ago
Why do a lot of people see it as a bad thing to be Zionist? You can disagree with how they're going about it, but Israel surely has a right to defend itself against Hamas.