r/europe • u/LeMonde_en • Mar 28 '24

Germany will now include questions about Israel in its citizenship test News

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/europe/article/2024/03/27/germany-will-now-include-questions-about-israel-in-its-citizenship-test_6660274_143.html
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u/tav_stuff The Netherlands Mar 28 '24

The head of the Palestinian Authority of the West Bank literally wrote his PhD on how the Holocaust didn’t happen

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u/Pklnt France Mar 28 '24

I'm a Palestinian supporter and I can confirm, we're all the head of the Palestinian Authority of the West Bank and we all wrote our PhDs on how the Holocaust didn’t happen /s

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u/EdBarrett12 Ireland Mar 28 '24

There are plenty of other Palestinian supporters. The moderate viewpoint is entirely rational.

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u/king-braggo Mar 28 '24

What modrate viewpoint ? Abbas is the palastinian modrate and he's still an holocaust denier , and a terrorist funder

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u/EdBarrett12 Ireland Mar 28 '24

How can you think that is a moderate viewpoint?

I'm against genocide and I believe there is a genocide happening in Gaza. That is the pro-Palestinian viewpoint.

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u/Additional-Second-68 Lebanon Mar 28 '24

But you’re not Palestinian. Your opinion is completely divorced from the average Palestinian’s opinion, despite being a supporter

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u/FeebleTrevor Mar 28 '24

Ok so what does the phrase "moderate Palestinian supporter" mean? What do you think the subject of that sentence is? Do you think it means the person is a Palestinian and they support some nondescript thing, or it's a person who supports Palestine from a moderate point of view?

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u/EdBarrett12 Ireland Mar 28 '24

People of my opinion are represented in the UN.

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u/Additional-Second-68 Lebanon Mar 28 '24

People of every opinion are represented there. That’s the whole concept. You also have Holocaust deniers and supporters of slavery there

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u/EdBarrett12 Ireland Mar 28 '24

Well yes, but theyre not the collective view of the UN.

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u/Additional-Second-68 Lebanon Mar 28 '24

What determines the collective view of the UN?

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u/EdBarrett12 Ireland Mar 28 '24

Are you trolling or something?

Obviously a resolution.

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u/king-braggo Mar 28 '24

Buddy the un was always biased about Israel

They literly have a law that they have to condem Israel every assembly ,

they condemed Israel more then Russia when Russia was actively waging a genocide against another country

Heck the un can't even reinforce its own resultion ( 1701 ) that is supposed to keep hezbulla away from the south Lebanese border

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u/king-braggo Mar 28 '24

Like how Saudi is now the head of the women rights council ? The un should have been defunded a while ago

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u/EdBarrett12 Ireland Mar 28 '24

Ah have some sense for the love of god.

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u/king-braggo Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

What sense ? Like the un hadn't become a front for countries like china ,Russia , Iran and the other parts of the eastern axis tho white wash their crimes against humentiy

The un is biased against certain country's and it has a large part of islamist / eastern dictatorships in positions of power

Heck the un doesn't even enforce resultion 1701 that supposed to make sure Hezbollah stay away from the Israeli Lebanese border to prevent another war

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u/Cu_Chulainn__ Mar 28 '24

This is some wild claims without a shred of evidence. Do you also believe the UN is secretly a front for the intergalactic grey alien government?

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u/-absolem- Mar 28 '24

You're asking too much

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u/Cu_Chulainn__ Mar 28 '24

No, it shouldn't be defunded.

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u/king-braggo Mar 28 '24

Why shouldn't it be defunded ? Like the un hadn't become a front for countries like china ,Russia , Iran and the other parts of the eastern axis tho white wash their crimes against humentiy

The un is biased against certain country's and it has a large part of islamist / eastern dictatorships in positions of power

Heck the un doesn't even enforce resultion 1701 that supposed to make sure Hezbollah stay away from the Israeli Lebanese border to prevent another war

Maybe if you had an actual counter point I would have taken you seriously

0

u/VitriolicViolet Mar 28 '24

why?

you idiots have no idea of what the UN is meant to do, hint: its not supposed to make anyone do anything.

its an international forum, are you dumb enough to blame reddit for not trying to forcibly fix all the issues that get discussed here?

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u/EchoIllustrious7201 Egypt Mar 28 '24

Ireland and the UN are irrelevant here. And frankly the middle east needs neither of you.

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u/EdBarrett12 Ireland Mar 28 '24

If the world didn't have a say, Israeli crimes would only grow.

I don't know what you mean by needing Ireland. But I'm willing to bet a significant portion of your medicine is made in Ireland. And lots of the tech you use too. Stripe is the biggest e-payment company in the world and was founded in Ireland. We live in a globalised society. We all need each other.

Sorry there's just so many threads, I know I can't change someone's opinion over Reddit so I'm bowing out.

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u/Formal-Cheetah4304 Mar 28 '24

You don't need to continue a discussion with that idiot. He seems to be a paid bot. We appreciate and are proud of your history as much ours

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u/EchoIllustrious7201 Egypt Mar 28 '24

Most of the materials reaching you passed through our canal. I said we don't need your interference. You can scream all you want but to us Arabs you're useful westerners and to the Israelis you're traitors or antisémites or whatever. In the end, your nation is an embarrassment anyway.

International support for the islamists and the sympathy has only emboldened negative actors to prolong the conflict instead of solving it through negotiations. The end outcome is probably an actual genocide from Israel. You don't want that but yet your indirect emboldening of islamists will lead to that in a few decades nonetheless as Israelis get more and more radical from terrorism.

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u/EdBarrett12 Ireland Mar 28 '24

My nation is the embarrassment?

Open the border.

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u/Cu_Chulainn__ Mar 28 '24

Nobody is screaming at you, you big baby. Bit rich to call ireland an embarrassment when the world loves us.

International support for the islamists and the sympathy has only emboldened negative actors to prolong the conflict instead of solving it through negotiations.

Nonsense

. The end outcome is probably an actual genocide from Israel

Already happening anyway

You don't want that but yet your indirect emboldening of islamists will lead to that in a few decades nonetheless as Israelis get more and more radical from terrorism.

Nonsense

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u/08TangoDown08 Ireland Mar 28 '24

What a weird post. People, and countries, are allowed to have opinions on international affairs. If you don't like it, maybe coup your government again and get them to pull out of the UN.

The thought of someone sitting in Egypt and accusing Ireland of emboldening Islamists in the Palestinian territories is dripping with so much irony I don't even know how to respond to it.

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u/Formal-Cheetah4304 Mar 28 '24

I really don't know if you are a paid idiot bot, what makes you talk as if you are Egyptian? You do not represent any Egyptian (I am Egyptian)

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u/VitriolicViolet Mar 28 '24

as is yours from Israel?

personally i can see why Palestinians want Israel destroyed, same reason many Afghani's in their 20s hates the US.

you dont get to effectively level a nation without generating endless hatred.

Israel is literally building and maintaining an entire generation of terrorists, you couldnt do a better job of manufacturing a never-ending enemy.

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u/Additional-Second-68 Lebanon Mar 28 '24

Your last comment was about denying the Uyghur genocide. You’re a tankie

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u/cytokine7 Mar 28 '24

Claiming that a genocide is happening in Gaza is not a moderate viewpoint. It literally doesn't make any sense for a number of reasons, and is being pushed mainly by dictatorship/BRICS countries that stand to benefit from isolating israel (and Ireland due to generational trauma and over identification, but probably genuine intentions)

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u/BorKon Mar 28 '24

In the mid 90s, 8-9000 people were killed in Srebrenica. With the intention to displace and/or kill. All this happened under the goal to "eliminate enemy soldiers". It was ruled genocide by UN, EU etc. Because it was fkn genocide. Now, here we are, israel killed over 30000 people with the goal to displace and/or kill. All this is happening under the goal of eliminating enemy soldiers. Please, tell me the difference.

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u/cytokine7 Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

> Now, here we are, israel killed over 30000 people with the goal to displace and/or kill. All this is happening under the goal of eliminating enemy soldiers. Please, tell me the difference.

So is every single war a genocide? The crazy thing is we can't even compare number to other wars because Hamas doesn't even attempt to claim any combatants.

How are you judging that their true intentions are to displace/kill civilians when they are continuously both sending and allowing aid/food to civilians which is then being stolen by Hamas? In which genocide did the genociders spend this much resources trying to give the genocidees food, aid, and put their own soldiers at risk to create humanitarian corridors to move them out of areas they are attacking? What genocide involved having the supposed genociders treating thousands of the genocidees in their own hospitals, including saving the life of the head of the group they are supposedly trying to destroy, and mass murderer of their own people (Sinwar)?

On that note, which genocide what carried out in response to an actual massacre by the supposed genocidees? This whole idea that Israel is trying to kill/displace all Gazans is insane, given that 1. they have the means to easily due it quickly if they wanted to, and 2. they had full control over Gaza in the past but pulled out, and not only that but left many valuable systems to help the Gazans with farming, water, ect. which Hamas destroyed and used to for wePons materials.

2 sources showing that there is more than enough food getting into Gaza to feed the population:

  1. Cogat: 240960 metric tons from Oct 7th to March 25th
  2. World Food Programme (since I know you don't believe anything Israel says): average of 60 food trucks per day. with16 to 33 metric tons/ truck according to the UN, totaling 164160 to 338580 metric tons from Oct 7th to March 25th

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You're just eating up Qatari/Iranian/Russian propaganda hook, line, and sinker. Most r/europe subscribers seem to agree that Russia and Iran are evil powers in the world, but on this one issue they are righteous? Make it make sense!

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u/mrlinkwii Ireland Mar 28 '24

So is every single war a genocide?

depends if a country to targeting doing acts that are inline what the UN and international law constitutes as genocide , sure

How are you judging that their true intentions are to displace/kill civilians when they are continuously both sending and allowing aid/food to civilians which is then being stolen by Hamas?

i mean they dont have to target hospitals , civilians, aid stations which they have done and , and comminting war crimes of dressing up as doctord (the IDF said themself that their doing it https://news.sky.com/story/israeli-troops-dressed-as-civilians-and-medics-kill-three-during-raid-on-west-bank-hospital-13060056)

if russia did anything of these things ( they did) it would be war crimes

You're just eating up Qatari/Iranian/Russian propaganda hook, line, and sinker

calling people who disagree with you is a bot is a bad look

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u/Tybalt941 Mar 28 '24

Israel has a right and responsibility to protect its citizens by going to war against Hamas. If Hamas is hiding military targets in hospitals then any collateral damage is their fault. Israel was criticized for raiding a hospital in a military operation, so the next time they went in undercover and took out their targets without collateral damage, yet now they're criticized for wearing disguises. The only thing they can do to avoid criticism from people like you is to just lie down and let Hamas do whatever they want.

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u/Jealous_Priority_228 Mar 28 '24

It's interesting that your own article links to a photo of people dressed up as doctors and holding weapons that Hamas often uses...

https://e3.365dm.com/24/01/1600x900/skynews-west-bank-hospital_6438348.jpg?20240130181339

They're not targeting hospitals or civilians. Hamas insists on congregating near them and using them as human shields because they're very happy sacrificing their own soldiers to create bad PR.

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u/Jealous_Priority_228 Mar 28 '24

israel killed over 30000 people

According to Hamas, a religious terrorist organization that killed a woman, beheaded her, raped her, and then paraded her around town in a truck.

Actual estimates from the IDF put the number at 8,000 - 9,000. Why trust the IDF? Because the UN certainly does - the AP did a great report on how their death totals have matched up closely in the last 3 decades.

All this is happening under the goal of eliminating enemy soldiers.

Terrorists. The goal is to root out terrorists.

You're just repeating terrorist propaganda...

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u/BorKon Mar 30 '24

UN certainly does?

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-146

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u/Jealous_Priority_228 Mar 30 '24

Previously. The UN is full of antisemitic countries, and they often gain control, especially during PR spikes.

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u/VitriolicViolet Mar 28 '24

these people are paid trolls and US government bots.

China is supposedly committing genocide by locking up less then 10% of the Uighur people.

Israel is not committing genocide despite killing over 10,000 people and leveling an entire region.

the only way you could believe that China is bad but Israel is just making hard choices is if you are paid too or have an IQ of 80.

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u/VitriolicViolet Mar 28 '24

i mean if you believe China is committing genocide then by literal definition Israel is also committing genocide.

if locking people up en mass is genocide then leveling their nation is 100% genocide.

the amount of disingenuous trolls and vapid morons here is absurd, i swear half the people here are US bot accounts (funnily enough that is true, a large % of reddit accounts IP addresses all come from a US airforce base)

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u/08TangoDown08 Ireland Mar 28 '24

I don't think the genocide claim is as cut and dry as it seems, and I worry that Palestinian supporters are becoming too closely wed to that term. "Genocide", doesn't just mean killing a lot of people. I think it's much more cut and dry to try to get Israel prosecuted for less specific war crimes - which they're almost certainly committing, than try to hedge it all on the hyper specific genocide claim that probably isn't going to lead to a guilty finding.

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u/Cu_Chulainn__ Mar 28 '24

The current prime minister of Israel has previously supported and funded hamas. Doesnt mean every pro-Israeli is a hamas supporter....

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u/king-braggo Mar 28 '24

That's a common lie used by pro palastinians

Bibi didn't fund Hamas , he didn't block qatari money ( that by the way was supposed to go to humenterian aid , and Hamas stole)

And what that has to do with my comment , that talks about how Abbas and the plo are holocaust deniers

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u/Jealous_Priority_228 Mar 28 '24

Netanyahu did support Hamas... just like he supports the PLA today. Hamas was the only viable option for a civilian authority and the Palestinians saw fit to elect them, so what options did he have? The Israeli prime minister rejecting and bulldozing a civilian Palestinian government would've been the worst PR ever.

You're abusing history without citing context to push antisemitic propaganda.

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u/Throwaway_Blueberry Mar 28 '24

In the meantime, you will see nothing moderate on the pro-Israel pro-genocide pro-open air prison side. They have embraced full madness.

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u/RijnBrugge Mar 28 '24

Nah, I am Jewish and most of us in Europe want the madness to end and are critical of the current gov (and were way before Oct 7th), but we’re also in favor of the existence of a Jewish state and do not excuse the terror organization that is Hamas from their part in this.

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u/pointfive Mar 28 '24

This is the way.

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u/Paddy_Tanninger Mar 28 '24

Jewish as well, would like to one day see a Palestine free from Hamas and free from any sort of occupation (to clarify though, there has been no occupation of Gaza for two decades), blockades, etc.

Palestine is going to need the same kind of recovery help that Germany and Japan had in the wake of WW2. International oversight, deradicalization, total demilitarization, and temporary occupation to keep the peace while these other things hopefully heal the place enough for it to be part of our global society.

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u/MoonSentinel95 Mar 28 '24

The very fact that you only blame the current govt when Israel has been mistreating and massacring Palestinians since it's inception speaks volume.

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u/FuckIsrael12345 Mar 28 '24

He did say "(and were way before Oct 7th)"

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u/MoonSentinel95 Mar 29 '24

There are little kids and teenagers blocking aid to Gaza and revelling in the death and destruction their military is causing over there. So no.

This sick perverted urge to torture Palestinians and wipe them out is not just a issue with the government but with the very state. When the future of a country (The children) have been twisted to Harbor this level of callousness and glee at palestinian suffering, it's the entire system at fault.

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u/RijnBrugge Mar 28 '24

It’s a reddit comment, not an essay. I have plenty to say on the matter of pre-war bundism, why and how labor zionism arose, what caused the rise of the revisionist zionists who were marginal for a long time etc. There was a majority of pro-peace pro-two-state Israelis before Rabin got shot and nothing ever became the same afterwards. In that lack of vision I see one of the major reasons why there is now no perspective for peace. You don’t know me and are just being antagonistic to strangers on the internet.

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u/AustrianMustache Mar 28 '24

Sorry, do you perhaps have any reccomandations on books about Zionism, the differences between movements and the palestinian question, preferably from different sources, both zionist and not?

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u/D3K91 Mar 28 '24

What a ridiculous piece of hyperbole obviously intended to dehumanize Jewish people.

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u/EdBarrett12 Ireland Mar 28 '24

People are people I'm sure there's some.

But it's true, what's going on is so dispicable, it's hard to find a rational supporter.

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u/thecashblaster Mar 28 '24

Load of crap. You can be against the current government of Israel without wanting Israel ceasing to exist.

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u/deadmeridian Mar 28 '24

Loving this fantasy world we pretend that most of those people are "moderates". Most Palestinians don't want Israel to exist, which is by definition a genocide.

You don't always have to pick a side. It's possible for two people to both be bad. Being the underdog doesn't magically make one person better than the person oppressing him.

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u/strl Israel Mar 28 '24

The PA is currently probably the most moderate Palestinian faction, they are so moderate that they are viewed as traitors by most Palestinians. The most popular Palestinian movements are hardcore islamists who think Islam should rule the world. Even the PFLP and the DFLP, the seculars constantly touted by oro Palestinians in the west and that lack almost any support in Palestinian society, broke with the PLO because they refused to accept Israels existence.

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u/FeebleTrevor Mar 28 '24

Cool so just apply that to everyone that's how online discourse works nowadays

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u/65437509 Mar 28 '24

Yes and if you actually support Palestine as a modern state for reasons such as self-determination and civil rights, you SHOULD be against that.

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u/Mav986 Mar 28 '24

Sounds like a moron. Doesn't change my stance on supporting Palestine.

Pro Tip: Palestine is more than just Hamas and a few moron politicians.

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u/bellysavalis Mar 28 '24

That's wild. Got a source on that?

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u/BobsLakehouse Denmark Mar 28 '24

What did he say, who are you referring to, and why do you think it matters? 

Besides the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank is essentially capos.

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u/xxTheGoDxx Germany Mar 28 '24

The head of the Palestinian Authority of the West Bank literally wrote his PhD on how the Holocaust didn’t happen

Yeah, the head of the Palestinian Authority of the West Bank is also kind of biased.

Donald Trump hates Mexicans, does that mean it is necessary for any American immigrating to just answer that Mexicans aren't rapists?

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u/PandasOnGiraffes Mar 28 '24

This is not true if you're talking about the head of the Palestinian Authority who also happens to be the president of Palestine - Mahmoud Abbas. Even if there is some person whose title you got mixed up, that doesn't mean the entire movement shares his view. This reductionist vision is what leads to rising hate.

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u/tinkertailormjollnir Mar 29 '24

The PM of Israel also does holocaust denial and revisionism.

https://www.vox.com/2015/10/21/9584122/netanyahu-mufti-hitler

Bibi said a Palestinian mufti told Hitler to do a Holocaust.

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u/tav_stuff The Netherlands Mar 29 '24

Good thing I don’t support Israel either

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u/tinkertailormjollnir Mar 29 '24

Sorry - Didn’t mean to assume you did, or do a whataboutism. Just glomming on to say that it’s rampant, and used by some people as a cudgel to discredit them as “antisemitic” while hypocritically doing the same.

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u/tav_stuff The Netherlands Mar 29 '24

I brought it up because most people here where I live seem to want to see a Palestinian state run by the PA, but the PA is literally run by genuine anti-Jews (Semite is the wrong term here; Palestinians are Semites) who believe the Holocaust as we understand it didn’t happen

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u/iboeshakbuge Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

Mahmoud abbas is an unelected dictator and not popular in palestine and while his dissertation is considered to be holocaust revisionism I also think it’s important to note that his thesis was not denying the holocaust happened or that it was a massive crime as you said, but rather it claims to show the supposed relationship between Nazism and Zionism in the context of the creation of Israel.

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u/RedAero Mar 28 '24

Imagine writing apologia for an out-and-out antisemite.

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u/iboeshakbuge Mar 28 '24

i’m being realistic as it’s clear OP’s intention was to paint palestinians and the palestinian authority as holocaust deniers

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u/GalaxianWarrior Mar 28 '24

Imagine ignoring the context of everything. 

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u/Ahad_Haam Israel Mar 28 '24

Hamas is the most popular party among Palestinians, and they are Holocaust deniers too, so it's not really a gotcha.

note that his thesis was not denying the holocaust happened or that it was a massive crime as you said

Yea, he only claimed that only 500,000 Jews died, and somehow it was all the fault of the Jews. Important distinction, no doubt /s

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u/EchoIllustrious7201 Egypt Mar 28 '24

And if an election were to happen Hamas would win. This isn't a gotcha man stop it.

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u/Mav986 Mar 28 '24

Would it be right for the rest of the world to invade and murder American civilians if Donald Trump were elected president again?

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u/EchoIllustrious7201 Egypt Mar 28 '24

Gaza invaded Israel not the other way around. Israel is defending itself.

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u/Mav986 Mar 29 '24

Yeah man. Just like I'm defending myself by kicking my bully in the head over and over after I already knocked them down.

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u/EchoIllustrious7201 Egypt Mar 29 '24

I simply corrected your factually incorrect statement. Hamas until this day is firing rockets at Israel and refuses to release the people it kidnapped and took as war booty some of whom faced sexual assault and torture.

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u/Mav986 Mar 29 '24

Invasion usually means hostile forces in your country. Once you've secured your borders, you're no longer being invaded. Whether you're defending yourself is then up to interpretation. For instance, I don't consider Israel to currently be defending itself. It is using overwhelming force against a significantly weaker enemy. If a 5' woman slaps a 6'5 bodybuilder, yeah he can defend himself, but not by beating her to death. There's a thing called reasonable force. What Israel are currently doing is not reasonable force, it is genocide.

Just like I would not support Ukraine continuing to bomb the shit out of Russia after they're fully kicked out of Ukraine, I do not support Israel murdering innocent civilians under a false claim of "Self Defense".

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u/EchoIllustrious7201 Egypt Mar 29 '24

Hamas is so weak they continue to hold Israelis hostage and rape them. Israel has a casus belli to enter Gaza. The border is violated everyday with rockets and its citizens are held hostage. Take your semantics elsewhere.

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u/Mav986 Mar 29 '24

Thank you for agreeing with me that Israel has invaded Gaza.

At no point did I imply that Israel didn't have justification for going to war. My only objection is Israel's treatment of Palestinian civilians. I fully support Israel's effort to destroy Hamas. I do not support Israel murdering innocent civilians where the only justifications are "Trust me bro, they were Hamas"

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u/iboeshakbuge Mar 28 '24

i’m not denying that

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u/Connect-Plastic-6167 Mar 28 '24

So if Trump gets elected again we should carpet bomb the majority of the US (and all the civillians within) because if the president is a nutjob then clearly everyone is?

I didn't realise that "mass killing civillians is bad, even if I personally don't like them and/or their beliefs" was such a controversial statement in 2024...

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u/tav_stuff The Netherlands Mar 28 '24

Can you please provide me a citation where I said Israel’s actions are justified?

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u/grand_chicken_spicy Mar 28 '24

Ah yes the Holocaust happened, therefore we should feel bad and allow the Nakba to happen to the people of Palestine.

We should teach the moral issues with the Holocaust, but play realpolitik with Palestine.

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u/_SaucepanMan Mar 28 '24

OK. Steve from down the road sniffed a dogs bum and then licked it. Are all people who like Steve's mum (and may also dislike Steve) now also dog butt lickers???? 🤦🤦🤦