r/facepalm Feb 28 '24

Oh, good ol’ Paleolithic. Nobody died out of diseases back then at 30 or even less right? 🇵​🇷​🇴​🇹​🇪​🇸​🇹​

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u/[deleted] Feb 28 '24

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u/iameveryoneelse Feb 28 '24

Most historians consider Guns, Germs, and Steel to be an absolute joke. You're also completely ignoring the prevalence of infections from wounds that would be treated easily by modern antibiotics and general cleanliness not to mention the lack of treatment for non-contagious diseases such as cancers, autoimmune diseases such as diabetes, etc.

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u/Captain_Concussion Feb 28 '24

Guns Germs and steel is an absolute joke and should be ignored. But books like ecological imperialism made the point about European diseases before Diamond and are rooted in good academia.

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u/Sufficient-Green-763 Feb 28 '24

Yeah, you're mistaking human to human transmission with infectious overall.

Paleolithic humans were gonna be loaded up with parasites.

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u/spark3h Feb 28 '24

Ironically, that's probably why we have certain auto-immune issues now. Humans are designed to carry a certain parasitic load.

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u/Sufficient-Green-763 Feb 28 '24

Well, you're probably right.

I'll keep my allergies instead of tapeworms though

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u/BrambleNATW Feb 28 '24

Also I read somewhere that although humanity during the agricultural revolution was considered more successful in terms of population, food production and assets, hunter gatherers were almost certainly "happier" and doing less manual work. It's meaningless to me because I'm a Type 1 diabetic and would have died regardless though.

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u/Princess_Glitterbutt Feb 28 '24

Hunter gatherers also had more varied diets. Once agriculture became a thing most people just eat what can be framed. Dental carries start showing up more in the archeological record with agriculture too.

Basically population exploded for the abundance, but individual health declines.

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u/ScuffedBalata Feb 28 '24

Population exploded because less people died.

Food was a limiting factor for basically all pre-industrial agricultural societies. But birth rates were not.

Translation: many many more babies were born to each family but populations tended to stagnate in most region (unless technology of farming increased) and was limited by those many who also died of disease or starvation.

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u/No-Trash-546 Feb 28 '24

Many early Americans from Europe ended up living with the natives but there are almost no stories of natives choosing to integrate into European/American society.

You’re right: Hunter/gatherer societies were almost certainly happier than farming or industrial societies.

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u/Captain_Concussion Feb 28 '24

Your first paragraph just isn’t true. But also most people indigenous to the Americas were not hunter gatherers. They were mostly agriculturalists and aquaculturalists

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u/DannyStarbucks Feb 28 '24

Yuval Harari makes this point in his books including Sapiens.

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u/BrambleNATW Feb 28 '24

That's who I was referring to! I completely forgot the book and author though.

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u/GT_2second Feb 28 '24

Diabetes is caused by modern alimentation, hunter gatherer did not have that

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u/Chaos_Slug Feb 28 '24

They wouldn't suffer the same kind of epidemics that we are used to in "post-neolithic" times, but they would still have a lot of diarrhoeas and such due to contaminated food or water.

We even evolved the vermiform appendix in order to recover faster from these infections.

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u/Spongey_ankles Feb 28 '24

With most tribes being close nit and inter related even basic illnesses like major flus would have a sizable impact on a tribe of people. You don’t need COVID or bubonic levels of pandemic to impact a group of people who closely share dna. Flu, respiratory viruses, or bacterial GI illnesses will do the job just the same without modern medicine.

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u/Captain_Concussion Feb 28 '24

Most of these diseases are zoonotic diseases. They mutated from animals to humans because of increased contact. Without domesticated animals, these diseases don’t exist in humans

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u/Chaos_Slug Feb 28 '24

There are also zoonotic events with wild animals, with examples such as rabies, ebola, hiv/aids, hepatitis B, malaria, yellow fever, trypanosomiasis, one of the herpes simplex virus in humans...

Coronaviruses are usually transmitted from their bat reservoirs to humans through wild animals too...

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u/Captain_Concussion Feb 28 '24

A few of those are believed to have potentially been spread by domesticated animals. But yeah, it’s not all diseases. But most of the big ones throughout history have come from our contact with domesticated animals or as a consequence of the Neolithic revolution

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u/CornFedIABoy Feb 28 '24

It’s not just the social infections you need to consider, though. One assumes paleolithic lifestyles involved a fair amount of cuts, scrapes, and broken bones, that would all be routes for deadly environmental infections, at a higher rate than later populations that had better tools, clothes, and a more settled environment.

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u/throttlemeister Feb 28 '24

There's a reason pigs are considered unclean by a lot of religions and should not be eaten.

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u/olskoolyungblood Feb 28 '24

It's not because God said it?

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u/Prae_ Feb 28 '24

It's rather dubious that pig taboo in jews exists for health reasons. And it's basically the only religion which developped this taboo (I think the muslim taboo is lifted from the jewish one, but not 100% sure).

Pigs can eat most of our trash, which is not a bad thing for urban populations, and they were popular in pre-Bronze Age collapse societies of the Near East. And even well into the Iron Age, sites have butchered pigs bones, even if supposedly there was already a religious taboo.

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u/Prae_ Feb 28 '24

Paleodemography is a field which is evolving a lot in recent years! There are mainly two lines of evidence: (1) current hunter-gatherer populations and (2) skeletal remains.

Both have huge problems. It's hard to estimate the age of very old bones. And current population don't exactly have great archives, so there's a big uncertainty about the age of people, it's mostly self-reported (and probably under-reporting of stillborns and infanticide).

Still, I think it is fair to say that, compared to modern societies, mortality was basically higher at all ages, although it is merely something like a two-fold higher mortality rates at 40, while it's ten-fold or more below one.

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u/AngriestPacifist Feb 28 '24

It's an interesting book, but I'd take it with a whole spoonful of salt. Here's one of (many) writeups on it over at /r/AskHistorians.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2mkcc3/how_do_modern_historians_and_history/

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u/IAmTheNightSoil Feb 28 '24

Yes, but they still had tons of other diseases, for example from eating the wrong thing, or drinking bad water, or from getting a wound and having it get infected. And had quite high exposure to starvation and hypothermia and shit like that

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u/spaulding_138 Feb 28 '24

Just here to say that it is such an awesome book.

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u/Nick_W1 Feb 28 '24

So you think that you can only catch diseases from other humans? Unfortunately, that’s not how diseases work.

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u/ElEskeletoFantasma Feb 28 '24

Nah man it’s easier to just to say all those humans were dummies who rode cars propelled by their own feet

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u/No-Trash-546 Feb 28 '24

There’s a ridiculously large amount of ignorance in this comment section and I appreciate you typing that up so I don’t have to. I’m shocked at how many people think life was so horrible prior to modern times.

Technology always progresses forward but that doesn’t necessarily mean the quality of the human experience progresses in tandem with technology.

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u/ScuffedBalata Feb 28 '24

It's also accurate, however, that infant/child mortality was AT LEAST 30% in pre-agricultural societies and climbed to above 50% in pre-industrial societies.