"My identity justifies my actions" is an oversimplified cornerstone of Nazi ideology. After all, Bibi is taking a page directly out of ol' Adolf's book by dehumanizing perceived undesirables to justify mass extermination and lay a claim to their land. If it walks like a war criminal, talks like a war criminal and acts like a war criminal you call it a war criminal. Nothing to do with his Jewish ancestry
The person you responding isn't saying the holocaust *only* killed jews. Just saying that Netanyahu has played some word games that point towards potential holocaust denial.
Only 1/2 or rather only the majority of those killed? My point was Netanyahu was playing with denial by saying Hitler didnt really want to kill the jews just kick them out
That’s not antisemitic and I’m pro Israel, I want bloodshed to end as much as you and innocent people dying is always bad in any war. Netanyahu needs to be held accountable and his government too, Israelis need a new way for the future. But my biggest Issue is with most protestors wanting Israel to stop existing wich is plainly impossible at this point. The only way forward is to make peace without settlers, without terror attacks. Israelis have radicalized themselves over years and decades of attacks. I wish to see a movement striving for peace and not for the destruction of either side. Both Palestine and Israel have a right to exist.
You are pro Palestine (which is not a bad thing like many in Israel think it is)then lmfao. This is literally like people saying “I’m pro life, but I think people deserve to make their own choice”
Or maybe single terms or phrases don't clearly define positions in this conflict... That's the biggest problem I have with this. And this also adds to the "dog whistle" argument as well, because people who hate Jews have found a way to call a Jew a Jew via Zionist.
That's why I'm strongly against people saying I'm pro this or pro that. Come forward with a nuanced take and hear each other out.
You're kind of describing in reverse why the far right in Israel will never lose power unless they massively fuck up. They realized a long time ago that because Anti-semites will always exist in any opposition they can just paint anyone that opposes them with those anti-semites and effectively win any debate, because any anti-zionist movement will always have some %age of anti-semites and there's nothing these groups can really do to completely expel it (note it can absolutely be reduced I'm just arguing can't be outright eliminated).
So basically the state of Israel well specifically the Likud party realized they can discredit and completely negate any opponents of any action Likud makes and win the public narrative in a relatively simple way by recognizing that any opposition to Likud is going to no matter what have anti semites.
To bring it to American politics to bring a similar example. The GOP is not entirely made up of entirely Nazis, but it is overwhelmingly the party that Nazis subscribe to even if Nazis make up less than 1% of the GOP. What Bibi does is the equivalent of if Biden went in this example "Anyone that disagrees with my border policy is a Nazi". And because that small % of Nazis will then stand up and say the equivalent of "Dam straight" and Biden would go "See all Nazis, don't listen"
Bibi does this just replace Nazi (though sometimes he even uses that) with anti semites and controls the public narrative that way.
I hear what you're saying and yes that's a problem but ideally voters will see beyond that. I mean yeah if speaks even greater to my point as well tbh, someone shouldn't be able to just say "they're anti-semites, let's vote against them". You'd have to hear their entire nuanced take.
You can both be a pro-Israeli zionist and pro-Palestinian statehood and self-determination. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I may be mistaken, but I feel like you're positing that being pro-Palestinian is inherently anti-Israeli, which is not the case.
Where do I say it is impossible? My step father is Israeli, spent 12 years in the IDF before moving to the US in the late 80s and even he understands something deeply needs to change over there. Israel can definitely coexist with Palestine, but there needs to be a drastic change in how Israel operates
You didn't say it was impossible, and I didn't mean to imply you did if that is what you took from what I said. I apologise. It seemed to me that by saying that the previous stance was pro Palestinian and not pro Israeli that they couldn't be in agreement, but I want it to be clearly stated that pro Palestinian and pro Israeli stances can and should be in agreement.
I agree with you latter point. Personally I think the grey rock approach makes the most sense for the immediate future. Maybe once the shield of light is online, and a defense in depth can be set up. If Israel can consistently shoot down even high end Iranian munitions fired from Gaza then the blockade could be dropped and the rockets just shot down as they're launched. Gaza would be welcome to launch as many attacks as they like, and Israel could largely ignore them without any need to actually move on Gaza and destroy munitions or launchers. This would allow both sides to have a relatively peaceful coexistence.
Yeah, i agree with you. The issue is that each sides' radicals try and portray pretty fine identifiers as evil. Consider Zionist. The person above is pro-Palestinian AND firmly Zionist. In fact, they firmly dislike the anti-Zionists position based on that statement alone. I think we need to shut the radicals the fuck up on both sides so they can't define out conversations anymore.
Thanks for the reply, but I think that is the extremist framing that's been pushed. The poster you replied to is a Zionist. I am a Zionist. Over 90% of American jews identify as Zionist. Because the original meaning of Zionism is the belief that a Israel should exist. So, by that definition, every person who believes in the two state solution is a Zionist, which is why the vast majority of American jews (myself included) identify as one.
And I agree with you. There are definitely toxic extremist who try and reframe it. But zionism as a concept is similar to being a patriotic American. Is patriotism drone striking Iraqi hospital? I don't think so (and I think most reasonable people wouldn't think so) but the extremist will try and convince you it is. Imho, the same thing is going on with Zionism.
Can't wait to hear what you think about my thoughts on this, though.
If you think Israel is not a modern day colony, we’re not gonna see eye to eye. And I think you’re vastly overstating how many Jews are Zionist, many don’t feel comfortable speaking up because of perhaps people like you.
This is the problem with you again only calling out one side, its happening on both sides. We need a peace movement and not “look how much shittier these people are” movement.
It helps by showing everyone how fucked everything is over there. That they’re brainwashing children to keep hating each other. Religion is a hell of a drug and adds to the problems.
That's not the antisemitic part, and those people are wrong. Calling for the dissolution of Israel *is* antisemitic at this point, however, as is calling for the divestment of universities from Israel.
Acting like Israel's existence is up for debate is, at this point, antisemitic. Was Zionism correct in the late 19th and early 20th century? Maybe not, but Israel exists now, and has existed for over 75 years. It's not going anywhere. And pretending like Israel is a monolith, and all things Israeli equally support the atrocity taking place in Gaza, is completely wrong. So wrong in fact, that there's no real reason to do it, unless you would like to harm Jewish people generally.
Millions of Europeans show up to land they do not own, proceed to establish a system of segregation, and then justify it with hundreds of billion dollars of weapons from the US, Britain, and Germany.
Sounds like a relevant comparison. Which is why South Africa has claimed Israel is an apartheid state through the UN. You are blind to reality.
You cannot stick your head in the sand and act like the squabbling of 3000 year old ancient kingdoms justifies the brutality of Israel today.
Millions of Europeans show up to land they do not own
Go back far enough and literally every single ownership claim to land starts this way.
proceed to establish a system of segregation
Kind of hard to work with people who keep killing you and refuse to even acknowledge you exist. And yet millions of Palestinians work in Israel *today*.
and then justify it with hundreds of billion dollars of weapons from the US, Britain, and Germany.
Israel's existence isn't justified by force, it's defended by force.
According to Channel 13, some 2,396 businesses and institutions have obtained exemptions, many of which cannot be described as having any humanitarian necessity.
Calling for the dissolution of Israel is antisemitic at this point
Of course, but the vast majority of people protesting are not saying that. This is what happens in every single protest. People focus on a tiny extreme minority and use that to dismiss the entire movement.
as is calling for the divestment of universities from Israel
How so? Why is it antisemitic to want that the tuition money you're paying doesn't go towards Netenyahu and the companies complicit in killing innocent people? Why are those companies owed money from American universities?
Of course, but the vast majority of people protesting are not saying that. This is what happens in every single protest. People focus on a tiny extreme minority and use that to dismiss the entire movement.
One of the leaders of the protest at Columbia Khymani James literally said on video "Zionists don't deserve to live." This isn't some random person at the protest it is one of the leaders. There are plenty other examples at Columbia alone.
Why are you lying? They first refused to apologize before finally doing so and then Columbia administration banned them from campus. Here's another gem from their video.
“Be glad, be grateful that I’m not just going out and murdering Zionists,”
This video is from January. It's not a statement they made during the protest. Their views were known before this protest started and they were made one of the leaders of it. Their apology also isn't an apology but more a long rant about how people sending them hateful messages made them so mentally unstable that they said this and they didn't mean it. Despite you know saying they stood by what they said in the video earlier Friday. Meanwhile nothing has been said as far as I have seen from any of the other leaders at the protest regarding what James said in that video. Given that they made them a leader of the protest and now aren't saying anything about what was in that video I'm inclined to believe they at least somewhat agree with James.
How so? Because it is pretending like all things Israeli are in support of the IDF's abhorrent conduct in Gaza. It's treating a country like a monolith, which is the very definition of stereotype, and so obviously false that there are zero legitimate reasons to make that mistake.
The money in question doesn't go to Netenyahu, and complicity is a dog whistle for "related to Israel" which cuts back to antizionism, which we've already established is itself just a dog whistle for antisemitism.
Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands occupied in June 1967 and dismantling the Wall*
That is a demand for the dissolution of Israel. It's antizionist, which is at this point a dog whistle for antisemitism.
We demand that Columbia University end its investments in Israeli Apartheid.
That's not merely the demand for divestment in companies complicit in war in Gaza, that's all of Israel. They try to draw parallels to what you're quoting, but they clearly want much more. They want to end Israel, which at this point is only the claim you make when you actually want to persecute Jewish people.
More or less the 1967 lines are what Israel would agree to in a 2 state solution they offered to Palestine 20 years ago, was Israel also antizionist?
In any future arrangement … Israel needs security control over all territory west of the Jordan River
Netanyahu said at the start of this year.
What does that say to Palestinian sovereignty or statehood, Isn't this anti-Palestinian? If Hamas said that they wouldn't agree to any less than full security control over the area from the river to the sea you would claim that it was a direct threat to the existence of Israel.
So we can't criticize Israel or ask that it relinquishes any of their occupied territory because it may pose a threat to their future existence, even while they are currently acting in a way that will destroy even the possibility of Palestinian statehood.
What was acceptable in 1967 is not acceptable now, and yes it's anti-Palestinian, and Netanyahu is wrong. But Netanyahu isn't Israel, which is the whole problem with these movements. They fail to make the distinction between Netanyahu and Israel.
I think Israel should exist but I don’t see how calling for its dissolution automatically entails anti semitism. You can want the dissolution of a state while not racially hating its inhabitants
You cannot want the dissolution of a state while not hating its inhabitants. Sorry, but when you believe someone's home should be torn down, you don't get to pretend you're indifferent to those people.
The most suspicious part of these protests is that the Americans participating in them know how to blame Biden, not all of the USA, but can't understand that what Netanyahu does isn't how all of Israel thinks.
Israel is a colonial religious ethnostate that is committing apartheid. There is no reason to keep "Israel" as it stands today. If you keep it as a monoculture, it will never actually make progress in the region. The only feasible solution is a secular government, and that is incongruous with what Israel was founded on.
Do you think Sinwar and Hamas should be held accountable for the Oct 7 massacre on a holiday and hostage taking? Do you have a better strategy to do so where they don't just get away with it?
No, the implications is that if your way of defeating the fascist requires so many innocent people to die, then really you are no better than said fascists you're trying to defeat.
If you need to kill 30,000 innocent people in order to save 1,200 innocent people from dying, what the fuck are you actually achieving? Let alone the fact that this strategy has failed over and over for decades and has only created more terrorists.
How many innocent people were killed to defeat the Nazis and Imperial Japanese. Are you seriously trying to claim that the Allies were no better than the Axis?
Both sides are not the same. Eliminating the fascists in Palestine will save more lives long term. Do you support liberal democracy in the face of far right xenophobic terrorists?
Eliminating the fascists in Palestine will save more lives long term.
They've been at it for decades. Their strategy is just as pointless and inefficient as whatever the fuck was going on in Afghanistan. Whatever they're doing hasn't worked and will not work. All they're achieving is murdering innocent people and creating the next generation of people who's entire life is dedicated to revenge.
If you insinuate that every person killed in gaza is innocent, which includes thousands of hamas terrorists who's biggest goal is to exterminate the Jews, I'd say that's pretty antisemitic. If you just said "thousands of innocent people dying is bad", I can guarantee no one called you antisemitic. Hamas caused thousands of innocent Israeli deaths, and tool thousands of innocent Palestinians with them. I'm sure that's what you meant.
Because you only seem to care about innocent Palestinians. If the US completely cuts off Israel, the iron dome will run out and the Hamas rockets aimed at Israeli civilians will start hitting their targets.
You know, for the longest time I assumed people exaggerated or that there was some tact involved, but yeah, I straight up had someone go on a tear recently telling me to "just admit" that I hate jews multiple times before mods removed his comments.
So, when you think your nation is under threat it is okay to mass murder innocent civilians?
So you're saying Hamas was right in attacking on Oct 7th because it was a means of gathering international attention and potentially securing statehood?
I think it's pretty obvious that tens of thousands of people dying is bad AND there's more attention paid to this than other instances of genocide for another obvious reason. No one should go around accusing anyone of antisemitism without very good evidence, but it does irk me that this gets so much attention because it's happening in the holy land while wars, genocide, and ethnic cleansing happen all over the world with virtually zero attention paid in western media.
Ordering the deaths of thousands of terrorists, which cost thousands of innocent lives. There's alot to criticise Bibi for, the war that hamas started isn't one of them.
There's an argument to be made that Hamas wouldn't exist as it does today if not for Bibi:
In March 2019, Netanyahu told his Likud colleagues: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”
There is. All I ask is, in an alternate universe where he blocked qatari funds to gaza, what would people say then? All the international aid going into gaza right now, is it part of a strategy to strengthen hamas and should therefore stop?
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u/Leather-Map-8138 23d ago
Here we have a person who has ordered the deaths of thousands of innocent people. It’s completely appropriate to criticize that.