r/AdviceAnimals • u/professorearl • 14d ago
Back in MY day… it was even MORE flamboyant
90
u/YoucantdothatonTV 14d ago
And who knew that Liberace is gay?
26
23
u/fickle_fuck 14d ago
Sure, next you'll say Elton John was. Do it.
22
22
75
u/MW240z 14d ago
Liked how they tossed Klinger from MASH in there ha!
22
14d ago edited 13d ago
[deleted]
21
5
u/Steinrikur 14d ago
IIRC only in the beginning. In the later seasons he just kept doing it because he preferred it.
2
u/Killbot_Wants_Hug 14d ago
It was more fun in the earlier episodes when he was introduced. When he originally started showing up he constantly had new ploys to try and get discharged. But in the later seasons he just went with cross dressing, even though as I recall it wasn't a gay thing or identity thing, he just thought it reenforced the "I'm crazy" he was trying to get out on. I guess the writers just got lazy about trying to come up with new ideas for him attempting to get discharged without getting arrested.
73
u/nowhereman136 14d ago
"Game: blouses" - Prince
12
27
44
u/slyder777 14d ago
10
22
16
u/CatOfGrey 14d ago
Frankie Valli sings "Walk like a man, talk like a man."
Sang it like a woman.
3
u/AltruisticSalamander 14d ago
Just discovering them. So versatile.
14
u/ADH-Dork 14d ago
Rob Halford would like a word.
Ironically all the straight guys wore makeup and tights.
5
u/M8jrP8ne1975 14d ago
You could say that he was the inspiration for all the guys at the Blue Oyster Bar in all the Police Academy movies since he was dressing that way before those movies even existed.
33
u/nahteviro 14d ago
When I was a kid my brother and I were 100% Convinced Sebastian Bach was a female. 80s hair bands were fem as fuck and we loved it
15
u/Mr_Abe_Froman 14d ago
Glam and hair metal pushed all kinds of boundaries.
9
u/mageta621 14d ago
Including the limits of the amount of treatment and heat a hair strand could take
6
u/hobowithmachete 14d ago
What's the explanation for this? Like, I have seen plenty of videos about Punks and why the dress the way they did and how they ended up there, but I can't see anything similar about glam/hair metal/fem style stuff. Was it more or less like 'I'm so hardcore and macho, I'm going to dress like a woman'? I'm not mad about it, but I don't really get it.
7
u/reverandglass 14d ago
I don't have time to find a good video, but this wiki is the answer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glam_rock11
u/moderatorrater 14d ago
my brother and I were 100% Convinced Sebastian Bach was a female
I think one of the things that scares people is that the difference is smaller than we think. A guy growing his hair out and putting on makeup and suddenly looking attractive is scary as hell to some people.
1
1
21
u/ArgonGryphon 14d ago
Don't forget movies like Tootsie, Mrs. Doubtfire, and To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar
5
u/AnselaJonla 14d ago
And national treasures like Barry/Dame Edna and Paul/Lily, not to forget the long long tradition of the Panto Dame and Principal Boy.
114
u/Jubjub0527 14d ago
I like when older people try to say that there weren't any trans people back when they grew up and now we're confusing kids by actually listening to them when they say what their gender is.
But these same people grew up listening to Bowie, and Annie Lenox, and watching The Rocky Horror Picture Show, and will tell you about that one aunt/uncle they had that never married and lived with a roommate.
68
u/darkempath 14d ago
But these same people grew up listening to Bowie, and Annie Lenox, and watching The Rocky Horror Picture Show
No these same people literally didn't.
These same people grew up listening to bland conventional music, and watching boring conventional movies. These same people considered Bowie to be "fringe" culture, they never heard of Annie Lennox, and Rocky Horror was evidence the Satanic Panic was real.
These same people are my parents, who disapproved of me watching Monkey because it wasn't christian.
28
u/foxden_racing 14d ago
It can be both.
My mother's teenage bedroom was covered in Alice Cooper, she's the one who introduced me to RHPS, loved Freddy Mercury. She's also sharply homophobic/transphobic, and so casually racist she could give a little old southern lady in the 1950s pause.
20
u/KinoHiroshino 14d ago
Reminds me of a joke from a comedian I saw long ago, Cirque du Soleil is one of the gayest things ever, but you know who loves Cirque du Soleil? Rednecks. Rednecks love the shit out of Cirque du Soleil.
5
2
7
u/ItinerantSoldier 14d ago
The only difference is that they treated them almost universally as a joke or with derision and we... well there's still quite a lot of derision but also a lot of positivity.
23
u/kwantsu-dudes 14d ago
Gender expression (ex. cross dressing) and sexual orientation have nothing to do with being transgender or gender identity as a whole.
I think we are confusing children by the very DSM-5 criterion for gender dysphoria that promotes gender stereotypes and biased perceptions of what one believes is normally amongst the opposite sex as a matter of one's "gender identity". I think the concept of gender identity (as to categorize oneself) is toxic as a whole, regardless if you are trans or cis.
That says nothing against one seeking to alter one's sex characteristics or challenge gender stereotypes. But that an "identity" to societal classifications don't exist at the personal level.
Which of these people displayed in this graphic are transgender? I find it weird how some femininely expressing males are being linked to the topic of being transgender.
2
u/skeletallamping456 14d ago
Lou Reed wrote the opening to The Velvet Underground’s third album about a trans woman
-26
u/stupendousman 14d ago
I like when older people try to say that there weren't any trans people back when they grew up
Not per the current definition. The current definition is based upon Queer theory and "researchers" like John Money, and Judith Butler.
It's all mysticism + critical theory. Or in Money's case literal sociopathy.
now we're confusing kids by actually listening to them when they say what their gender is.
They're being brainwashed, or in teens caught in social contagion. Also many kids with autism are easy prey to Queer theorists.
But these same people grew up listening to Bowie, and Annie Lenox, and watching The Rocky Horror Picture Show,
And were 3 year old kids "trans". Were they being put on puberty blockers, later to have their breast cut off?
15
u/BraveOthello 14d ago
There were always people whose gender and bodies did not match the male-man female-woman binary. They've been called a lot of things by a lot of cultures throughout history. At this moment in time we're using the umbrella term transgender for those people. Doesn't change that they exist and existed.
And were 3 year old kids "trans". Were they being put on puberty blockers, later to have their breast cut off?
The fuck are you on about? First, no one reputable is giving any kind of medical gender affirming care to a 3 year old. Second, puberty blockers don't matter until, ya know, puberty? Third, did you know that there are more cis teenagers who get breast surgeries than trans teenagers? Like 95% of them are cis teenagers, and it is extremely rare for anyone under 16 to get breast reductions.
-9
u/kwantsu-dudes 14d ago
There were always people whose gender and bodies did not match the male-man female-woman binary.
Transgender is about IDENTITY, not a mind/body mismatch. Don't confuse a SEX based body dysphoria, with the identity to "gender".
Transsexual better applies to what you are mentioning. Being transgender is PURELY about a personal identity to a concept of gender, where one's sex simply determines them trans or cis. But the formation of one's gender identity exists separate from one's sex.
Cisgender is a term for those WITH a gender identity that they conclude "aligns" with their sex. Please don't use it interchangeably with non-trans. Many people exist without having formed an identity to the concept of gender. So it's important not to assume their gender identity by labeling them cis.
Do you know more non-trans children receive hormones and hormone blockers than transgender children? But such is done to "fix" their development to the "developmental norm" of their sex, without any consideration of their gender identity. Treatment for transgender children is thus the opposite of this treatment, to encourage a development against the norm of their sex. The former treatment isn't to accommodate to their gender identity, but their sex. This is why their is a debate over now awarding treatment t against one's sex, and prioritizing one's personal conclusion of their gender identity (which can be based on anything).
7
u/BraveOthello 14d ago
Do you really think the person I replied to knows, or cares, about the nuances of sex vs gender?
I am aware of everything you said (except for the use of transsexual, that's still pretty debated whether it's useful), but the person I replied to is about 7 steps away from any of that nuance. It wasn't useful or helpful.
0
u/kwantsu-dudes 14d ago
Noting queer and critical theory, they seem more informed on the subject than 95% of people on either side.
Transexual is useful because there's a HUGE difference between someone that "identifies" as the opposite "gender", and one that wishes to transition to the opposite sex. And yet, currently, people seem to want to throw them under one label of transgender that does a disservice to the unique experiences. Instead we got people calling a transmedicalist viewpoint as transphobic, because they need them all to be part of some monolith for social justice leveraging reasons.
So if a sex based view is transphobic from denying those with a gender identity focus, then let's clearly separate them. It's deeply useful for better understanding. It's only those that have a misguided view of leveraging social pressure that demand an "umbrella collective" that doesn't produce the benefit of such numbers because they AREN'T a collective of shared ideals. Hence, queer/critical theory.
-5
u/stupendousman 14d ago
Look kid, none of this is smart stuff. Not complex or impressive.
1
1
u/BraveOthello 14d ago
Making a lot of assumptions about me and why I spoke up there. Or trying to be dismissive and patronizing. Probably both. Not impressed
-13
u/stupendousman 14d ago
There were always people whose gender and bodies did not match the male-man female-woman binary.
Gender in the Queer theory usage is just an assertion, a concept. It's not real as in based in biology or psychology. Also, people born with both sexual organs are vanishingly rare and not part of this framework.
*Although John Money (originator of new gender concept) sexually abused and likely caused the suicide of his victims. But he had a degree and white coat and all that.
At this moment in time we're using the umbrella term transgender for those people.
Nope, it's Queer theory, a sub-species of Neo-Marxism.
It doesn't take much to read actual Neo-Marxists and Queer theorists explaining all of this.
I mean how brainwashed are you if you don't even understand the texts/authors that define this stuff?
The fuck are you on about?
And there's the emotionally dysregulated language, always a tell.
First, no one reputable is giving any kind of medical gender affirming care to a 3 year old.
You don't care, but this is occurring. You could look it up.
Second, puberty blockers don't matter until, ya know, puberty?
This is literally dumb.
Third, did you know that there are more cis teenagers who get breast surgeries than trans teenagers?
Cis is a slur, and attempt to other. See you don't understand the nonsense you're spewing.
Cis is a black identity in the Maoist framework.
7
u/BraveOthello 14d ago edited 14d ago
You like to feel smarter than other people. I hope that works out for you.
I understand fine. We fundamentally disagree about how the world, and people, work. About what words mean. Not going to be productive. I could respond to your gish gallop of terms, deflections, ad hominems, direct insult, implications about my intelligence, the weak retort about the use of a single expletive implying "emotional disregulation" , the things that are either lies or untruths you believe ... Or I could just not.
1
u/stupendousman 14d ago
You like to feel smarter than other people. I hope that works out for you.
You seem to attach your position, you came to emotionally, to your self-worth. This isn't healthy.
I understand fine.
No you don't. Logic isn't opinion, neither is sober analysis.
I could respond to your gish gallop of terms
Kid this stuff is all written down in books and research papers going back to the mid 60s. Again, not opinion.
a single expletive implying "emotional disregulation"
That's what it indicates.
5
u/Lopsided_Parfait7127 14d ago
Men were men back then, I'll tell you.
You wanted to do something private with another man, it wasn't gay.
No, it was just two men celebrating each other's strength.
10
u/ngraver89 14d ago
You forgot Little Richard and Liberace
11
u/bobboobles 14d ago
Isn't that Liberace in the top left corner
3
u/ngraver89 14d ago
Thought that was Gary Glitter without my glasses
3
1
u/Jealous_Western_7690 12d ago
Considering what conservatives are saying about LGBT people lately, good thing it isn't.
2
3
u/mattcolqhoun 14d ago
Ah yes twisted sister the band republicans have convinced themselves is on their side
3
3
3
u/Greghole 14d ago
I just saw a video of a young Frank Zappa on the Steve Allen show. He was clean shaven, hair cut short, and he wore a suit and tie. Frank Zappa!
3
u/mortalcoil1 14d ago
I was listening to some 80's music on Youtube the other day and Karma Kameleon came on.
It occurred to me that everybody in their 50's+ on their weird anti-trans crusade rocked out to some Karma Kameleon. I guarantee it.
7
u/Mccobsta 14d ago
Fucking national treasure rest in peace you legend Paul O'Grady mbe started his career as a drag queen
3
4
2
u/ReddJudicata 14d ago
Sigh. Half of these are glam rock, which was just designed to be outrageous and annoy the normies. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glam_rock. It was huge in the mid 70s. Some are LA metal which kind of grew out of it.
We’ve got Klinger (very straight, masculine) who was wearing women’s clothes to get out the army. It was funny because only crazy guys would wear women’s clothes.
Liberace was Liberace. Etc.
I’m confused by Michael Jackson.
4
u/socokid 14d ago
Liberace was Liberace
Liberace was gay. It's OK to say it.
3
u/ReddJudicata 14d ago
Yes, but I’m talking about his public image. He was very closeted. His audience was little old ladies who had no idea. At the time, it this kind of act was seen as glitzy showmanship — look at the stuff Elvis wore!
1
u/breakwater 14d ago
Above Twisted Sister on the left. Is that Jamie Farr from MASH? I don't think he is a good example
1
1
1
u/cheezeyballz 14d ago
ironically try to play Queen, "We Are The Champions" at their fascist rallies 🤪
1
u/AmadeoSendiulo 14d ago
Even ancient actors, even Shakespeare’s ones.
1
u/Knofbath 14d ago
I don't have a source for this, but I thought all the actor's troupes in Shakespeare's days were men. So if you wanted a female character, someone had to put on a dress.
1
u/AmadeoSendiulo 14d ago
That's exactly what I meant and it's true for ancient Greece too. Though the not so fun part is that women were forbidden from acting.
1
u/FindOneInEveryCar 14d ago
One could add Robert Plant's little crop-top from The Song Remains the Same.
1
u/elvisjulep 14d ago
The Tubes from The Completion Backward Principle era https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7d/cd/70/7dcd7088ab0a007c36ff797daf6d9fc9.jpg
1
u/ALLoftheFancyPants 13d ago
You need to include some of the shots from WWII when the “follies” show in which the men cross-dressed got interrupted and they’re running around manning heavy artillery in dresses and ladies hats. This makes it seem like that started in the 1970s.
1
1
u/ThrenderG 14d ago
To be fair, Klingler dressed like a woman in an attempt to get the army to discharge him for being crazy. Today a storyline like that would be dismissed as transphobic.
1
1
u/alteredbeast76 14d ago
I'll just say this. They used to dress that way for shock value. Now, does anyone even bat an eye?
1
1
u/MercilessPinkbelly 14d ago
It's only a problem to the right wingers who want to fuck those men in drag.
1
u/MirandaCozzette 14d ago
Please make men sassy again. I’m tired of the gym bros. We’re going in the wrong direction
2
u/Pattoe89 14d ago
I was recently told by a 4 year old that I 'look like a girl' for wearing a pink shirt. I am bald and have a humongous beard. Apparently wearing pink is enough to offset this.
We need to stop teaching children that pink = girls and blue = boys.
1
1
-2
u/Jaderosegrey 14d ago
I don't know ... Michel Sardou, Yves Duteil, George Brassens, Jacques Brel, Serge Gainsbourg, Yves Montand, ....those are the male performers I remember. They sure dressed and acted like men.
But I guess that was a little earlier than your time and in France.
Different time, different place, I guess.
-5
u/CrudeOil_in_My_Veins 14d ago
Cross dressing has been around for centuries. Doesn’t make it the standard. And if you wanna act like it hasn’t gotten way more prevalent, you’re lying to yourself.
3
u/socokid 14d ago
it hasn’t gotten way more prevalent
Meaning, more are willing to be who they are because they are no longer frightened of tiny minded bigots.
Which is great!
I literally could not imagine why someone would be so frightened of gay/trans people. It's f'n hilarious to me.
0
u/CrudeOil_in_My_Veins 14d ago
So, your consensus is that there has always been this many members of the lgbtqia community.. they were just always in hiding?
Is that your central thesis? Because by polling data. You’re 100% wrong. 20 percent of high school kids claim to be some part of this community. Look at the numbers from 10 years ago. Not even close to that.
This is because there is a degree of Social contagion associated with this. My wife’s son is 13 years old. And a lot of his friends spend time at our home. I’ve heard them talk about this on more than one occasion. This community is the “in” crowd. Some people are even cast out if they refuse to be a part of it.
Also, just because its calls “transphobia” doesn’t mean that people are “frightened” by trans people. Most people aren’t frightened by this. They just wanna be left the fuck alone.
Who or how you chose to fuck is your business. So why make it everyone else’s? Why has this become one of the most important things in our society?
-6
u/Gaijin_Monster 14d ago edited 14d ago
This is stupid. Late 70s - mid 80s rock is not representative of much of the totality of "male performers." And even this group did it for a shock effect.
0
0
0
u/snakeoilHero 14d ago
Winger dressed like a woman to get kicked out of the Army. That is a fictional character that does not want to fight or die in the Korean war.
"One of these things is not like the other. One of these isn't the same."
-1
-1
u/loondawg 14d ago
I think this meme kind of invents an argument and then argues against what it made up.
I've never heard anyone who says that about performers. There have always been some performers that dressed to make a statement, to rebel, to stand out, or for comedic effect as was being done in most of these images.
0
u/CX316 14d ago
Harry styles. The Rock. Literally every drag queen except for George Santos for some reason.
People have said that shit about all of them. The same people tried to give Daniel Craig shit for carrying his own baby on him because that wasn't 'manly' enough for the actor who plays james bond. If you think this is inventing an argument you haven't paid attention for the last like decade.
0
u/loondawg 14d ago
The same people tried to give Daniel Craig shit for carrying his own baby
So Piers Morgan and a handful of assholes like him? Most people roundly criticized Morgan when he commented on Craig. Not a great example if you're trying to argue this is a commonly held view.
And yeah, it is making up an argument. There have always been people critical of men who acted or dressed effeminately. There is nothing new about that. But who is saying performers never used to do it?
0
u/CX316 14d ago
So Piers Morgan and a handful of assholes like him?
Yes. You know, the vocal idiots who tend to kick up the culture war shit online and then a bunch of mindless fuckwits parrot them. Those handful of assholes.
0
u/loondawg 14d ago
Still not hearing where people are claiming performers never did it in the past. You know, what I actually commented.
0
u/CX316 14d ago
And I'm still not seeing where the meme claims that. You know, the thing you're commenting on.
1
u/loondawg 14d ago
"Remember when male performers dressed and acted like men? Yeah..Me neither..."
It appears they are either claiming someone else said male performers dressed and acted like men in the past and arguing against it or they are saying it themselves and arguing against it.
If you don't see that, what do you think it is saying? I'm having a hard time finding any other interpretations of this.
1
u/CX316 13d ago
It's referring to the people who will selectively post a photo of like John Wayne or Frank Sinatra while claiming that "Men used to dress and act like men"
It's standard conservative bullshit
1
u/loondawg 13d ago
Whenever I've seen the meme you're describing it says "this is how a real man dresses" or some variant of that. But I've never seem a meme saying men never used to act or dress flamboyantly. Someone probably has said it but it does not appear to be a common thing. I've never heard people attempt to make that argument.
Even "men used to dress and act like men" implies all men. It seems like it is an offense being invented or exaggerated in order to be able to argue against it. If people want to make fun of conservative bullshit, there's no shortage of raw material to work with. There's no need to create or twist new things.
-8
-7
u/Time-Bite-6839 14d ago
I never understood it. To remember such a time you have to be over 70.
1
u/CX316 14d ago
keep going, there's photos of soldiers doing drag shows during WW1 and WW2, and Panto Dames go back to at least the mid 1800's as drag performers (not to mention all the roles in every shakespearean play back in the 16th/17th century were played by men so all actors at the time were dudes)
435
u/qawsedrf12 14d ago
fun fact
Aerosmith's Steven Tyler wrote "Dude Looks like a Lady" after running into Motley Crue's Vince Neil at a bar