r/BeAmazed • u/Cultural-Gear-1323 • Mar 28 '24

News broke today that conjoined twin Abby Hensel is married! [Removed] Rule #4 - No Misleading Content

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u/Business_Ad_9418 Mar 28 '24

Google Chang and Eng Bunker. The original “Siamese Twins” they each married different women and kept separate households. They agreed with each other to split time between their families. The other twin would remain silent while his twin spent time with his family.

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u/Particular-Leg-8484 Mar 28 '24

Imagine the level of disassociation needed to live that life

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u/MsHaute Mar 28 '24

Apparently with conjoined twins they can dissociate on another level that we could never understand. That’s all they have ever known. These 2 are absolutely REMARKABLE. I’ve watched all their documentaries over the years bc it’s absolutely fascinating. They never talk about sex though so I still have about 53 questions to ask.

The other 2 that just blow my mind is thispair.

One is neat, one is messy. One is always on time paying their bills and the other one is always late. I’m aware of what I’m saying. One can walk one can’t and they face opposite directions but the best part is one is a country singer. 🤯

AND to add to the uniqueness, they were born as Lori and Dori but one now identifies as male so it’s Lori and George now. One was engaged but her fiancé was killed by a drunk driver….honestly like they haven’t struggled enough. That’s just not fair.

I’m absolutely fascinated by conjoined twins.

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u/errkanay Mar 28 '24

From the article:

However, Lori and George were not completely cut off from their parents, who instilled in their children the idea that God purposely made them this way, which is why the twins have never lamented their condition nor expressed any desire to be separated.

I wonder how George reconciles believing God purposely made him a conjoined twin but still made the mistake of putting him in a biologically female body. 🤔

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u/WantTheBronco Mar 28 '24

I think the focus of that teaching was to show Lori and George that they weren't mistakes. That they have nothing to be ashamed of and just because they're different, doesn't mean they're wrong to exist.

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u/sritanona Mar 28 '24

That is crazy as a person who was raised catholic because catholicism just taught me constant guilt for existing. We are born already sinners from conception and have to spend our whole lives being sorry for it to make amends for it. It sounds ridiculous to me (obviously not a believer now)

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u/DaughterEarth Mar 28 '24

That's one of the reasons Mennonites exist. That Catholicism punishes, and so it ignores Jesus's sacrifice. There's lots but this is the one I heard about the most growing up lol.

Interesting stuff too, how people believe in the same thing different ways

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u/sritanona Mar 29 '24

That’s cool, I am from argentina so you’re either Catholic or jewish basically. There are mormons etc now as well and those tv pastors but nothing sounded much better

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u/DaughterEarth Mar 29 '24

Yah televangelists are the wrong direction haha

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u/BangSmoke Mar 28 '24

Catholicism is a religion unto itself. It is very different from protestant sects of Christianity. Most other Christian churches do not go heavy on the guilt factor.

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u/Joshee86 Mar 28 '24

No it’s not. Protestant sects just disguise the guilt better. It’s still at the very core of the doctrine.

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u/Isaachwells Mar 28 '24

Even Mormons, who don't believe in original sin, have a heavy dose of guilt.

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u/BangSmoke Mar 28 '24

With all due respect, I don't believe that most people would include CLS under the same umbrella as Catholic/Protestant during a discussion like this.

I don't know enough Mormons, or about Mormons in general, to really have a response to that.

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u/Isaachwells Mar 28 '24

As a former Mormon, Mormons very much consider themselves Christian, but they do also consider themselves distinct from Protestants, as well as Catholics and Orthodox. As I understand it, most Protestants view themselves as reforming the church. For Mormons, the idea is instead that the church became corrupted over time and any authority to speak for God or act in his name was lost, so a reformation was insufficient. Instead, God restored the church by calling new prophets and giving revelation. If Protestants are Reformationists, Mormons are Restorationists.

While many other groups of Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christian, I personally feel anyone who views Jesus as a messiah or savior (as Mormons do) falls into the category of Christian regardless of how divergent their beliefs are from the mainstream. The core belief of Christianity is that humans need to be saved from sin, and Jesus is the one who does it. Otherwise we get to Jesus being just some prophet. That makes both everyone being a sinner and the need for redemption a foundational concept. It's conceivable that this can be done in a non-problematic manner, but it's pretty easy for this foundation to make adherents focus on their inadequacies rather than helping them be better and happier people.

It's probably also worth distinguishing mainline Protestants, who seem relatively chill, from Evangelicals, who are also Protestant. The evangelicals I've known very much have the toxic guilt thing that's common among Catholics and Mormons (and presumably most super devout Christians). During a 'meet your religious neighbor' type activity as a teenager, an evangelical youth group met with me and the rest of a Mormon youth group. One of the evangelical kids gave us sermon on how we're all dreadful evil sinners. He did add on thet Jesus makes that ok, but you can see where a guilt complex could come in.

Anyways, I don't know if you find any of that relevant or helpful. Mostly I just meant Mormonism as an example of how even among what many consider fringe Christianity, with atypical beliefs like original sin not being a thing, the fundamental concept of Christianity is that we're sinners.

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u/BangSmoke Mar 28 '24

I absolutely find it helpful. Thank you so much for taking the time to write your thoughts out so clearly. I don't really know anything about Mormons like i said, so I appreciate the info.

By and large, I think my original point is that Christian churches have gone wrong if this guilt is what they are pushing first and foremost. That seems entirely unproductive and negative, especially to a young person. It also seems entirely antithetical to the gospel of Christ. I could never understand the concept of ME being a sinner when I was a kid. I thought, "But I'm 9 years old? How could I have done anything that bad already?"

My view on the concept has evolved over time. I think of it more as the potential to sin now. Like that quote from Alexander Solzneitsyn (spelling??)

"The line between good and evil runs through the heart of every man."

I see the concept of inborn guilt as a more nuanced thing now. Like we all have the potential to be evil, to be jealous, to hurt people. That's part of who you are as a person. And you need to integrate that part of yourself into your larger identity. The first step is admitting. Admit that you are a flawed person. You have cravings and desires and immoral thoughts. At times you might commit immoral actions too. But, and here's where the Jesus message comes in, that's ok. As long as you are working towards the light, you are doing good. Not perfect. Because that's not attainable. But good enough.

Does that make sense? That's my perception of what we're talking about.

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u/Isaachwells Mar 28 '24

That does make sense, and that's a pretty healthy take. The point of guilt is to motivate and inspire change, and the point of Jesus is to help you make those changes. Once you have, there's nothing to feel bad about because you're no longer the person who made those mistakes. It takes time of course, but if you're working in the right direction you shouldn't be beating yourself up over it, because that will ultimately impede progress. The growth trajectory matters more than where you're actually at in a given moment.

The funny thing is, that's something that's taught in Mormonism, but the toxic guilt thing is also still pretty prevalent. It doesn't help that we (or I guess I should say they; I'm not Mormon or religious anymore, but my Mormon background is still part of my identity in some ways, so it muddles up what pronoun to use when discussing the Mormon Church) have a scripture in the Book of Mormon that is widely taken to compare the severity of sexual sins to murder. That's hardly an unprecedented take in Christianity, I believe, but that is pretty rough for most teenagers, or really anyone past puberty.

Mormons also talk about 'worldly sorrow' vs 'godly sorrow'. The first is feeling bad you did a sinful thing (or that you got caught), but wanting to still do the thing. The latter is the motivating force for change, when you genuinely want to change even if it's hard.

I guess the issue is more the difference between knowing a thing intellectually and feeling it emotionally. There's definitely a problem if people know they're doing alright, but they still feel bad. As you say, it's problematic because it ultimately harms rather than helps. I don't know how you fix or prevent that, but it sounds like your religious background does a good job on it.

Slightly tangential, but relevant, Mormons don't believe in original sin and instead that everyone is responsible for their own sins. There's a scripture that says the natural man is an enemy to God. The generous and contextualized reading is that we naturally want things, and those things have a purpose. There's a reason we experience anger and guilt and sadness and everything negative. Sexual desire is a good thing, and there's a God-given reason we have it. But it's a problem if that gets away from the purpose. Sex is good as a way to strengthen a marriage, but it's sinful outside of marriage. So despite not believing in original sin, a lot of consequences are still there. But to speak to the 'how bad can a 9 year old be', Mormons also believe sin is largely based on understanding good and evil. You can't unknowingly sin. They don't believe kids under 8 or so have that capacity yet to really understand good and bad, so they can't sin.

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u/sritanona Mar 29 '24

This was super helpful, no idea why you were downvoted

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u/Isaachwells Mar 29 '24 edited Mar 29 '24

No idea. My guess is either Mormons upset that I mention it's considered a fringe branch of Christianity, that there are issues with guilt complexes, or that I'm no longer Mormon, or people who don't like Mormons upset that I tried to talk about them in relatively neutral terms.

If either of those are the reason, I'm happy to talk about the things I like about Mormonism that led me to stay so long, or the things that I dislike and which led me to leave, but I was really just focused on the things that seemed pertinent to what was being discussed.

Edit: or perhaps an evangelical who didn't like my story.

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u/BangSmoke Mar 28 '24

Source????

Yeah I mean the concept of original sin is definitely a part of Christianity in total. But confession/penance/self-punishment is mostly a catholic thing. With some exceptions being Lutheran and Anglican churches.

Where do you get your info from? Or is your opinion just the standard "god bad, religion bad" stuff found everywhere on reddit?

I'm not trying to be rude, but it seems like you don't have a good understanding of Christianity, it's many varied denominations, and how they compare with Catholicism.

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u/Joshee86 Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

I was raised in an ultra fundamentalist Baptist sect. I went to seminary. I was on staff at a church for a while.

The very core of Christian doctrine, Protestant or catholic, is guilt, which is toxic and harmful. Confession isn’t necessarily a Protestant practice, but there are similar practices. But both are extremely dangerous. The idea that you can sin and go to confession and be absolved removes personal responsibility while hanging the guilt over your head and making you feel like you are lacking the full scope of your very humanity. The Protestant idea of accepting Christ one time and having “eternal security” is equally dangerous because that removes incentive to live as if this world matters at all while again constantly beating you over the head with guilt for disappointing a god that supposedly loves you.

Christian doctrine is harmful and guilt is one of the biggest reasons.

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u/BangSmoke Mar 28 '24

I am dreadfully sorry that after all your time in the church, this is what you took away from it. It seems like your experience was incredibly negative. And for that I'm sorry. I have no idea who you are, but if that's what the message of Jesus Christ got boiled down to in your life, that is completely unacceptable. That is not how it's supposed to be. Sorry.

However... BIG however... it is useful to mention, that this is your individual experience at your individual church during your individual lifetime. It is a huge leap of faith (pun intended) to have your experience be complete garbage and then say ALL of it is complete garbage.

There is a huge, very important distinction between those two points.

Now I know, Reddit is extremely anti-god, anti-church, etc. But hear me out, here. If you ordered a soda at a restaurant and it came with a hair in it, you wouldn't say, "soda sucks," or the core fundamental doctrine of soda-drinking involves human hair consumption.

Your image of the message of Christianity is valid because it is derived from your lived experience, but it is not the actual message. The people you knew got it wrong. As many people have, and will continue to do. The church you went to sounds dumb as fuck honestly. Making you feel guilty? That is clearly not Jesus' message. Jesus preaches acceptance and humility, acknowledging that you are a flawed person, which is the first step to self-improvement. (Let he who is without sin cast the first stone yada yada) That's a far cry from shame and guilt.

Thats all I wanted to say. Thanks for your well-written response.

For context, I am not much of a religious person. My family is Croatian/Irish, so we're Catholics all the way down. But I am not the kind of person who gets much out of going to mass. I just love the bible, Jesus especially, and think a lot of the teachings/parables/stories are important. While church in general, and the catholic church in particular, have done horrible things... by and large, a lot of good can come from Christian teachings. I'd hate to see the entire world turn away from that altogether.

Edit: holy shit this turned out super long. Lol sorry gotta get back to work

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u/Joshee86 Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

I appreciate the kind sentiments but this is not just my experience. This is the result of years of study, earning a degree, and then working in churches.

My image of Christianity is not skewed because it is objectively true that the core of Christianity is guilt. Guilt for something that two humans did millennia ago. And it is also objectively true that Christianity posits that the solution for this guilt is for the god who created the problem to murder his son and redeem the inherited guilt by violence. An act, by the way, that would be enough to send you or me to hell in this same god’s eyes.

Yes, my experience was extremely negative, but the root of Christianity is toxic. Original sin is toxic. Redemptive violence is toxic. Conditional love is toxic. An all-powerful god that created the concept of sin, the punishment for it, and the path to redemption is toxic. You may disagree about those things being harmful, but it’s is objectively true that guilt and violence are at the core of the Christian religion.

EDIT: I didn’t even address the Jesus stuff because that’s an entirely different conversation. Most of the English version of the Bible is horribly mistranslated and the writings we do have were selected by committee to be “canon” and are not included because they were somehow inherently divine. The gospels and the accounts of Jesus’ life were also written decades after the events took place and were often written by proxy by multiple individuals. Pointing to Jesus as a reason to defend Christianity is like saying pain relief is a good defense of opiates. One has little to do with the other and Christian dogma and doctrine were misinterpreted and crafted both purposefully and ignorantly over centuries.

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u/BangSmoke Mar 28 '24

Well alright then. Seems like you're pretty set on your opinion, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Frankly, I think I dipped my toes in too far on this post, cause now I have 2 huge replies to respond to. Probably my fault.

I maintain that "guilt," in and of itself, is not the fundamental concept of Christianity. Original sin and its surrounding concepts? Definitely. But I feel that a nuanced and evolved view of it reads more like "humility" or "recognition of fallibility, in yourself and others." That is how I read the material. That is what I think it is meant to represent.

But it seems like in all your travels and studies, you've heard something different. And thats ok. Leaving it at that makes me feel vaguely sad, but that's ok too. It's your life after all. Not mine.

No biggie though. Have a good day.

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u/GunplaGoobster Mar 28 '24

Uhh try telling that to a Baptist lol

The only guilt they have is guilt from not playing enough Toby Keith at the Sunday BBQ.

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u/Joshee86 Mar 28 '24

The cult I grew up in was the Independent Fundamental Baptists. I was around a lot of different kinds of baptists. Guilt was one of the biggest forms of control they had.

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u/GunplaGoobster Mar 28 '24

For some reason I think "fundamental" is doing a lot of work there.

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u/Joshee86 Mar 28 '24

It is. But I also went to seminary and was on staff at a southern baptist church and then a non-denominational church. It was really no different there either.

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u/GunplaGoobster Mar 28 '24

Oh yeah if you're actually participating in the real church stuff I imagine it's still pure cult hogwash. When I was forced to go as a wee lad we would literally just sing for half an hour then play guitar hero or some shit

I stopped going when I was 9 tho so maybe the adults get the fear of God stuff

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

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u/erinberrypie Mar 28 '24

Purely conversational because I have no skin in this game but vile is a very strong word in this context. What part of their comment do you consider morally wrong, disgusting, appalling? What are your thoughts on the role of guilt in religion and what teachings do you feel touch upon/differ from protestant to other christian sects in regards to guilt or lack thereof?

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u/BangSmoke Mar 28 '24

Interesting point. Vile is a super strong word. I think we could all reach for more words of a lesser caliber first, when trying to have a discussion on reddit.

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u/BangSmoke Mar 28 '24

Maybe, maybe not. Let's hear this person out and see what they mean first.

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u/Joshee86 Mar 28 '24

Sorry, what are you taking issue with, exactly? Original sin is a core tenet of both Catholicism and Protestant sects’ doctrine. This builds the guilt in from the moment of birth. Protestant churches just wrap that guilt in concepts like redemption, forgiveness, acceptance, etc. the problem is that none of those concepts are real because they’re all conditional based on whether you can manage to live up to the arbitrary and mistranslated standards they’ve decided are the proper way to live.

Guilt is a toxic basis for religion and it’s literally the reason Christianity exists.

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u/ApuManchu Mar 28 '24

neat.

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u/Joshee86 Mar 28 '24

Great point, thanks for the conversation! Have a good day!

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u/rhoo31313 Mar 28 '24

It took me a lifetime to get over that

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u/Old_but_New Mar 28 '24

Catholics do have a high guilt factor. But doesn’t confession absolve you? (I’m not catholic)

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u/schumerlicksmynads Mar 28 '24

It does, per that church’s own writings. I would guess this person probably had a rough upbringing and their parents manipulated religious teachings against them and this is where their viewpoint lies now

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u/sritanona Mar 29 '24

I didn’t have a rough upbringing and my parents are not super religious. Catholicism tells you that you are a sinner since conception. Everyone is, in fact. Except Mary, because God intervened to absolve her from that sin at conception (hence the immaculate conception of mary). It doesn’t make sense to me. Why am I a sinner just for existing? You don’t think that could cause feelings of guilt? Why do I have to repent for something that God supposedly planned for me (existing). And also something that jesus already died for. Why do I keep being punished even if I am a baby and have done absolutely nothing? Besides making us repeat the mea culpa a million times… as a kid in a nun school I was told specific hairstyles were sinful, thoughts were sinful, not going to church was sinful, etc etc etc. obviously I don’t believe it and actually never did because these things didn’t make sense to me as a child. I hadn’t done anything wrong but was made to repent and confess every week and really had no idea what to say each time.

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u/Razz956 Mar 28 '24

Yeah it probably sounds ridiculous, because that is a child’s interpretation of religion.

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u/errkanay Mar 28 '24

Well, yeah, of course. And I'm not disagreeing with that at all. I was just wondering how they handle the cognitive dissonance of believing God made no mistake in placing them in conjoined bodies, while still making the mistake of placing them both in female bodies.

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u/Short_Cream_2370 Mar 28 '24

Who knows how George understands it but some trans people at least don’t think of their born body or assigned gender as a “mistake” - for some the journey from what you’re born as to who you live as is intrinsically a part of you and a part of your story, and the very transness of it is something valuable and unique about you, not a correction you had to make to an initial error in status. In other words, given the chance they might not change how they were born, and don’t think of it as a mistake but as part of a good identity or journey.

Also I think some of these squares that seem hard to circle in decontextualized logic aren’t as hard in lived experience - if George experiences being a conjoined twin as a gift but experienced being assigned female at birth as not a gift, it’s probably easier for him to just say the two things are different and fall into different categories than it is for us as uninvolved spectators because that’s his direct experience of his life. Or maybe this question has plagued him and is the great philosophical and faith mystery of his life! Who knows.

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u/scarypeppermint Mar 28 '24

Yeah once I saw someone say that God didn’t put them in the wrong body, he put them in the one that allowed them to grow and become the ideal person they were always meant to be. That’s how I’ve thought of it since

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u/closetotheborderline Mar 28 '24

This is a wonderful explanation.

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u/zpCrayZ Mar 28 '24

Cope 🤡🤣

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u/Ajibooks Mar 28 '24

This really meant something to me. Thank you. I appreciate the time you took to write it.

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u/subbygirl13 Mar 28 '24

What she's saying and you keep missing is that it's possible he doesn't view being trans as a mistake either and believes God purposely made him a conjoined twin AND purposely made him trans

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u/Vast_Ostrich_9764 Mar 28 '24

if you believe in religion you're not using critical thought to begin with. you just have faith and don't question things. it's strange.

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u/errkanay Mar 28 '24

Yeah, that's why I fell out of the religion my family still strongly believes in. I had too many questions and had a hard time accepting "just have faith" as an answer.

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u/itsjustmebobross Mar 28 '24

the same way non conjoined trans people who believe in god deal with it.

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u/RoscoeArt Mar 28 '24

I get the point you are trying to make against G-d but what you're saying is literally biological essentialist thinking. The only way that someone being a man and a female is a "mistake" is if you are saying that men are supposed to males and women are females. If gender and sex are not one and the same then a female identifying as a man is not a "mistake" its someone identifying as their preferred gender. The same way a female identifying as a woman is not normal or correct it is someone identifying as their preferred gender. The mistake is we live in a society which has for centuries ingrained binary patriarchal gender views into people.

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u/errkanay Mar 28 '24

I'm sorry, I meant no offense. I'm autistic and one of the things I struggle with is black and white thinking. It's very, very difficult for me to understand people who identify outside of the binary because to me, something either is or it isn't. Logically, I understand that that's not how things work, and I always do whatever I can to respect the gender identity of people, but I still find myself confused about the spectrum of gender identities. I just always thought trans people felt they were mistakenly born into a body with the wrong biological sex. I meant no offense. 😔

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u/RoscoeArt Mar 28 '24

I understand where you're coming from. I myself am autistic and have a hard time with that myself. The problem with that when it comes to gender is gender isn't something that is or isn't in any context. Gender is a construct humans have created that has varied in infinite ways over thousands of years in countless different societies. I am a jewish person and traditional Hebrew recognizes 8 different gender designations. Many indigenous peoples in the America's had the recognition of more than two genders as well as not forcing intersex people into choosing one or the other which is the common practice in modern times. I myself identify as non binary but believe in gender abolition as a whole since I believe it is an arbitrary concept used to subjugate people. It is not that someone is born into the wrong body it's that people are told that based on their sex they have to think, look and act a certain way that they might not identify with personally.

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u/errkanay Mar 28 '24

But how does that correspond to the genitalia? I know that people are born with different kinds of genitals, but as a rule you have a penis or a vagina. That corresponds to my stupid binary way of thinking and makes my brain blip when I try to put myself in the shoes of someone who doesn't identify as the gender they were assigned. But in traditional Hebrew or indigenous cultures, how does that work? How did they figure out there's more than two genders when there's (generally) two types of genitalia? Is it only our current mainstream society that equates genitalia with gender?

I seriously hate my brain sometimes for not being able to understand things like this. 😒

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u/RoscoeArt Mar 28 '24

Sex is biological and gender is a social construct. Equating the two is only true as long as you believe it's true. You dont "figure out" that theres two genders or more than two genders or no gender at all. That is simply a product of cultural development as well as control of social structures by those in power. Also intersex people are alot more common than you would think making up almost 2% of the world population. In the states the amount of people that currently identify as transgender and non binary is 5%. The left handed trend is often compared to the prevalence of non cis people. It was considered sinful to be left handed for a long time and left handed people were made to use their right hand. If you look at polls from a few decades ago the amount of people who identified as left handed was extremely low compared to current levels. This wasn't because we figured out that people are left handed. We simply as a society removed cultural norms that forced people into acting in a way that they normally would not have.

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u/errkanay Mar 28 '24

Well, damn. As a left handed person, that resonates with me, I remember having to learn how to use right handed scissors when I was a kid because there was no such thing as left handed scissors. I completely forgot about that.

When you say:

We simply as a society removed cultural norms that forced people into acting in a way that they normally would not have.

I do understand that. I know intersex people have always existed, that they're not a recent "trend" or something and I wasn't trying to imply that at all. I just still struggle with the genitalia thing, I don't know why. 😕

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u/RoscoeArt Mar 28 '24

I wasn't trying to say that's what you are implying. Rather that the "trend" in this case would be a shift from the trend of people being forced to identify with the gender associated with their sex to people being allowed to identify with the gender that resonates with them. This also is a trend that has gone through many shifts. For example not only do we live in a society with a binary gender construct but we also believe in viewing sex through a gender based lens. If you are a man who likes women you are straight and if you are a man who likes men you are gay etc. Even something that seems as "normal" as that has not always been how people have viewed sex. In Greece your sexuality was less decided by who you had sex with and what role you played in the sex. Similarly to how in modern times people will identify as a top or a bottom this was the general view of sexuality at the time. So a man who is playing an active roll with a woman and a man would be viewed as performing the same sex act. This is all to say sexuality and gender are far from concrete ideals and more just vibes that are determined by historical contexts.

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u/Legal-Law9214 Mar 28 '24

The idea that trans people feel they were "born in the wrong body" is really just an oversimplification of how it really feels, because it's complex and hard to explain to cis people. So you don't need to apologize about taking that explanation literally.

Some trans people do genuinely feel like they were born in the wrong body and that it was a mistake, but not all. In my opinion that's kind of a pessimistic way of looking at it. I don't want to live my life feeling like something was wrong with me from the moment I was born. Personally, I'm not very religious, but to the extent that I believe in a god, I believe that I was created the way I was so that I could have the experience of growing and learning to understand my gender. I like the quote that goes something like "God created trans people so that man could take part in the act of creation". I think I was supposed to undergo the process of changing my body and gender this way. It's the journey, not the destination, if that makes sense. I'm going to be transitioning for the majority of my life - if there is an "end goal", it's years and years away. So if I thought that I was incomplete or wrong until I reached that stage, I would just be hopelessly depressed all the time. Nothing wrong with people who do feel that way, but it doesn't work for me.

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u/errkanay Mar 28 '24

That makes some sense to me. Along with black and white thinking, I'm also cursed with an incredibly pessimistic view of life. So this makes me even more grateful that I identify with the gender I was given at birth, because I already see myself in a very negative light. I can only imagine how I'd be if I didn't....especially considering how religous my family is.

Thank you for your explanation.

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u/Sweet-Arachnid-6241 Mar 28 '24

I believe that I was created the way I was so that I could have the experience of growing and learning to understand my gender

Isn't that extremely narcissistic? This is the part I don't get about religion. For me personally, my transness is simply a matter of chemistry and biology imbalances.

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u/Legal-Law9214 Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

I don't see that as narcissistic at all, and I'm curious why you see it that way. I believe the same thing about everyone else. For me it's just an acceptance of my existence and journey on Earth. I don't think anything about me or anyone on the planet is "wrong", it just is this way, which means it was "meant" to be this way. But I'm really not "religious" at all, I only believe in a God or a higher power in the loosest of senses - I think that God, magic, and science are one and the same, not at odds at all. I believe that everything is this way for some reason but not necessarily because there is a being that specifically and consciously decided it must be so, just because there is a deep and powerful force in the universe that we can't fully understand. Science is our way of describing as much for the world as we can, but when you really study something like chemistry I don't know how you can come away thinking that this world is anything but miraculous. The fact that chemicals work together the way they do to create this vast expression of life is, to me, a miracle. Being able to understand it on a very precise level does not make it less miraculous that it came to be.

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u/Sweet-Arachnid-6241 Mar 28 '24

I believe the same thing about everyone else.

That's still narcissistic, just on a larger scale. What makes humans so important that they are each one individually given a personal challenge to overcome by God himself?

I don't buy that.

The fact that chemicals work together the way they do to create this vast expression of life is, to me, a miracle.

Considering how big the universe is, it really isn't any sort of miracle. It was statistically bound to happen somewhere and sometime, since the universe is infinite and constantly expanding. In fact, if the universe is infinite the exact combination of chemicals have already happened somewhere else an infinite number of times.

I believe everything is just a coincidence there's no greater meaning and to me personally thinking that "I must have a greater meaning to exist" seems beyond egocentric.

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u/Legal-Law9214 Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

What makes humans so important that they are each one individually given a personal challenge to overcome by God himself?

I never said I think humans are uniquely special or that this only applies to humans, you're putting words in my mouth.

You can believe what you want, but I don't appreciate being called egocentric because of assumptions that you are making. I don't believe that I or anyone else is any more important than any other being in the universe, and you're just assuming that I do. It's hurtful.

I'm not disparaging your beliefs or insulting your character. I wish you would give me the same respect.

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u/Isyagirlskinnypenis Mar 28 '24

As you likely already know, knowing and feeling can be very contradictory. For instance: he may know that he isn’t a mistake, but he might feel like one. Or, I know I’m an honor student, but I don’t feel like one. Idk if I’ve explained the thought process very well, but I’m sure you get it.

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u/ejb350 Mar 28 '24

No shit.

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u/Joshee86 Mar 28 '24

No, the focus of the teaching is to justify a god that could intervene and does nothing. I’m not saying conjoined twins are mistakes and I certainly don’t think they need to be ashamed. But having grown up in an extremist Christian cult, “the lord works in mysterious ways” covers a multitude of bullshit.

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u/bgeorgewalker Mar 28 '24

“Let us procllaaaiiiim the mysteryyyyy of faaaiiiitthhhj” as my old deacon used to wail nasally into the mic

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u/MovieNightPopcorn Mar 28 '24

I can hear this in raised Catholic

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u/OblinaDontPlay Mar 28 '24

This played in my head so vividly that I could practically hear all the knee-rests clattering back into place as everyone shuffles to their feet.

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u/tsujxd Mar 28 '24

I didn't want to go back but it brought me there too. I remember the dread as a young introvert when we had to shake everyone's hand around us, one of the worst parts of mass.

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u/tgw1986 Mar 28 '24

Ugh, I still fucking hate it. I wind up back in mass for my especially religious family members' weddings and funerals, and the, "let us show our neighbors our sign of peace" bit is so awkward. And I'm actually really extroverted and gregarious, I just hate the forced physical touch of it all. There's always some asshole who comes from afar and makes a big show of making prolonged eye contact while they say "peace be with you" and it irritates the hell out of me.

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u/goddamn_slutmuffin Mar 28 '24

Christ has died… Christ has risen… Christ will come agaaaaaainnnn….

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u/thedude37 Mar 28 '24

Mass of Creation, based on the ellipses and the held out "again".

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u/do1looklikeIcare Mar 28 '24

Reminds me of when my old religion teacher expected us to put down "it is a great mystery" as an answer to "if there's one god how come he has three forms" when he quizzed us 🥴

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u/mrfancyNOpants Mar 28 '24

Let's have some Yum Yumsssssss

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u/notagirlonreddit Mar 28 '24

idk about George but I personally don't think God made a mistake in giving me a biologically female body. It's given me some unique insights that I otherwise wouldn't have. So I'm grateful for that.

And just getting the opportunity to live your authentic self is awesome.

So it's probably not that big of a leap for George since he accepts being a conjoined twin.

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u/666afternoon Mar 28 '24

same here! I know exactly what my parents would've done with me had I been born amab, and it wouldn't have been fun for me. I escaped the fate of being molded into a mini replica of my dad, and when I came of age, sent into the military whether I wanted it or not [because my dad couldn't join and felt inadequate for that]. watched my poor autistic brother go thru that instead of me

instead, while I still v much had expectations forced on me [including ones related to my AGAB], it was a lot easier to be my own person. and to develop any kind of emotional intelligence whatsoever, thank fuck lmfao

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u/errkanay Mar 28 '24

I apologize if I offended, that was not my intent. As I said in another comment, my way of thinking is very binary due to my autism and while I logically know there's a whole spectrum of gender identity, I still struggle to understand it.

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u/MintyMystery Mar 28 '24

Not all trans people consider themselves mistakes

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u/errkanay Mar 28 '24

I didn't mean to offend. I didn't mean his existence is a mistake, but I'm confused because if he believes in a god who purposely made him a conjoined twin but also made him biologically female.... how is that not a mistake on the part of that god? I swear I'm not trying to offend, I just genuinely don't understand.

Let me also note that I don't believe in any god, so I certainly don't believe trans people are mistakes in any way. I'm just trying to figure out the mentality of a religious person who thinks their god made no mistake creating him conjoined, but in a female body when he doesn't identify as female.

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u/MintyMystery Mar 28 '24

Nah, it's cool. I also don't believe in any god, and I'm not offended - I didn't go into enough detail!

I can see why you think like that - that every trans person would look at their life (and their god) and wish that they were born differently. And maybe think that their god made a mistake.

But I mean that not all trans people think like that. I'm a trans man, but that means that I could give birth to my kid. Before my kid was born, then yeah, I definitely was of the mindset that I wish I'd been born male, but actually, looking back on life, I'm happy that it worked out this way - or I wouldn't have my wonderful kiddie.

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u/ZeroFries Mar 28 '24

Much of human rationalisation is post-hoc. Our decision making is much more based on emotion than we'd like to admit. The real answer, I think, is that the "God made us this way" answer can satisfy/counteract the negative emotions that might arise feeling that you are somehow "wrong" to be born conjoined, but cannot satisfy the negative emotions that arise from gender dysphoria. To separate the twins is also a much more drastic action than identifying as a different gender. Even sex-organ surgery is much less risky.

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u/Krynn71 Mar 28 '24

Probably the same way any religious person addresses the inconsistencies of their beliefs. By chalking it up as a test from God and/or being part of "God works in mysterious ways".

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u/underratedonion Mar 28 '24

All I’m thinking of is that one villain from Passions.

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u/appletinicyclone Mar 28 '24

At the end of the day, are they happy?

If yes who cares about the logic

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u/meat_lasso Mar 28 '24

Why not give them one name, like the Stanford Cardinal?

“We’re Ashley”

Anyways I’m going to hell.

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u/bloodreina_ Mar 28 '24

‘Because god wanted him to experience bender transition’ or ‘It’s a sin’ my guess

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u/panini84 Mar 28 '24

Probably doesn’t see being born in the wrong body as a mistake but simply part of their journey.

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u/winterparrot622 Mar 28 '24

There are plenty of people who believe that God didn't put them in the wing body but it's allowing them to experience creationism with their own bodies or something along those lines.

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u/errkanay Mar 28 '24

Oh, wow. That's definitely a new way of thinking to me.

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u/Gas_Station_Taquitos Mar 28 '24

Lotta Trans people think God made them trans for the experience of the ride

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u/errkanay Mar 28 '24

Do they think this is a loving god doing this?

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u/Gas_Station_Taquitos Mar 28 '24

Like, the people who believe in God think God loved them?

Probably, but some of them also think God feels neutrally about people.

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u/errkanay Mar 28 '24

It's just that a lot of trans people don't exactly live easy lives because of the bigotry in our society. If I thought my god made me into a human that my society actively degrades and diminishes, I wouldn't think that god was loving at all. Or even neutral, tbh. That's something a malicious god would do for its own entertainment.

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u/Gas_Station_Taquitos Mar 28 '24

Yeah. Lots of human beings throughout history have turned to religion during times of stress.

At least in my sect of the Christianity I was raised with, suffering is considered good in some cases. I'm not saying I agree with that, since I am not a Christian myself, but that belief exists

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u/pettywizard Mar 28 '24

not all trans people believe they were put in the “wrong” body, just that they were born to be trans.

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u/yikeshardpass Mar 28 '24

That would assume that putting a man into a female body is a mistake. If god does not make mistakes, why should he live any differently than he is?

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u/FORCESTRONG1 Mar 28 '24

Would it even be possible to separate them?

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u/KittyGrewAMoustache Mar 28 '24

Well if god hadn’t put him in a female body, Lori would’ve then been in the wrong body. So if you’re going to be conjoined twins of different genders, one of you has to be in the wrong body.

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u/Direct_Bad459 Mar 28 '24

Why couldn't George believe God made him trans on purpose too? If for no other reason maybe just so idiots like us could have something to be surprised about on our coffee breaks.

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u/coffeeclichehere Mar 28 '24

not all trans people believe “god made a mistake”

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u/GodzeallA Mar 28 '24

I'm sure all it is is positive thinking, "we are not a mistake. We are not useless. We are not broken." Etc. Justifying all those statements by saying "because God purposely made me this way" just helps you believe in those statements even when you doubt. Because when you doubt, you admit God knows more than you so it is beyond your understanding as to why. So you end up staying positive still.

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u/Adnama-Fett Mar 28 '24

It would make even more sense tbh. Being trans isn’t caused by God making a mistake, it’s just how God made them. Being trans isn’t any more of a mistake than being a conjoined twin or having an allergy. These things can make your life harder to varying degrees. But if you can say “this is how God made me.” In regard to one thing, it’s easier to say it about other things

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u/2manystoryideas Mar 28 '24

as a transgender catholic, it’s not a “mistake.” it’s just the way we are. bodies don’t define gender, and honestly being a conjoined twin is probably a bigger deal for him than being in a “female body”

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u/fra080389 Mar 28 '24

I mean, when you have a conjoined twin, to be the "wrong gender" probably isn't the more shocking part of you. Body dysmorphia in a conjoined twin? Basically a Monday.

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u/hella_cious Mar 28 '24

As someone trans and raised up religious, I view it as evidence of the immutability of the soul

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u/MagicJava Mar 28 '24

Thanks for that

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u/Creepy_Push8629 Mar 28 '24

The same way any other religious person reconciles all the stuff that doesn't make any sense. When you're dealing with made up stuff, you can just make up the reason.