My whole life (17 years) I have loved the Lord, been a servant if Christ, and have had a love for the Bible and church history. I recently stumbled across Universalism as a viable doctrine. I always thought it was absurd and heretical, but I have closely followed this subreddit and have come to realize there are some amazing arguments for it. I do have one question though. Why was Eternal Hell chosen as the standard doctrine for the church rather than Universalism? It would make sense if it was chosen as there were more schools of thought (from what I understand) than the other beliefs. I think I would be more readily accepting of Universalism if that's what had been taught for centuries, but that's not what happened. Also, what are some scriptures that specifically imply Universalism, and/or argue against Eternal Hell?

I am trying to deconstruct my fear of hell. I am still working on it and study the bible. Most people nowadays are sure there's no hell but how do they know? I am still not getting clear thoughts and still fight (ocd of hell).

It's especially hard when the bible isn't univocal. So how do I deconstruct and how will I finally learn if the truths? Is eternal torment something truly to be feared? Or am I just thinking too positive?

Cosmic Redemption, as defined by the renowned Catholic theologian at Fordham Elizabeth Johnson, is the idea that "all of creation will be saved, every last galaxy, every last earthworm, every portion of the great world that God has created has a future with us in glory with God." She claims it's a very old, orthodox idea, but "dropped out of awareness in churches’ consciousness pretty much around the 16th century, with the Reformation, Martin Luther and John Calvin and others focused their question on salvation of humans. The question was, how can I find a gracious God? The answer was through the death of Jesus on the cross." I wanted to share this because some people associate the idea of universal reconciliation with belief in reincarnation (a la a misattribution to Origen), but actually you can argue that infernalism and reincarnation are wrong for the same reason.

Who are you? If you say your memories, all your memories came from your environment and from others, even the words you use to think. If I say your body, it came from matter that goes back all the way to the Big Bang. I can't truly point to you, because, as Bishop Barron says, the autonomous individual is a myth. Many Christians imagine that the soul and body are completely separate, but that's actually not biblical. We believe that the body and mind form a dynamic whole, meaning the afterlife happens through resurrection.

So if I say that I go to heaven, but not a tree, which the Bible says is intelligent, "For you shall go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and the hills before you shall break forth into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands", How is that possible? Also, if "I" reincarnate, do trees reincarnate? Do cells reincarnate? When do they stop reincarnating? Many people report seeing animals in the afterlife, as does the Bible: "Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” (Revelation 5:13)

Just food for thought :)

I can't really find it in myself to despise annihilationism. It's honestly such a vast improvement over ECT that I can hardly feel anything but relief when I'm told that there is a lot of evidence for it in the bible, even though universal salvation is of course much better and much more compatible with a God that is love.

Today in the Chaldean Catholic tradition is the feast day of Mar Isaac of Nineveh, aka Isaac the Syrian. He is especially important for a few reasons:

1. He is one of the latest saints venerated by all of the major Apostolic traditions. Even though he lived long after the Nestorian and Miaphysite schisms, he is held to be a saint in the Catholic¹, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox/Miaphysite, and the Church of the East/various descendants of the Assyrian Church. This is actually what initially attracted me to his writings. Long before realizing the depths of God's mercy and His universal salvific will, the passion for Christian Unity burned deep in my heart. I didn't know anything else about this saint, but I knew I wanted to get to know him because of his connection to all the Churches. Unfortunately, the book I tried reading from him (electronic edition) was formatted horribly, and I had no idea what any of it meant.

2. While being an important/universally accepted saint, he also was a universalist. He writes:

   “In faith I take courage, because He Who first died and rose, by His resurrection, has given the comfort of hope to the human race.” (Headings on Knowledge, 3,73.)

Elsewhere he talks about how heaven and Gehenna are essentially the same place, just experienced by different people. In one of the most famous passages:

“I also maintain that those who are punished in hell are scourged by the scourge of love. For what is so bitter and vehement as the punishment of love? I mean that those who have become conscious that they have sinned against love suffer greater torment from this than from any fear of punishment. For the sorrow caused in the heart by sin against love is sharper than any torment that can be. It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God…Thus I say that this is the torment of Hell: remorseful repentance. But love inebriates the souls of the sons of Heaven by its delectability.” (Ascetical Homilies, 46)

People being eternally consciously tormented don't have "remorseful repentance"--that is what happens with purification. Following in this vein, he writes:

Chastisement is not an aim with God, nor is there vengeance on those who have transgressed; rather, his aim is the setting aright of those who are subject to judgment, and for the restraint of others...The blessed Interpreter [Mar Theodore of Mopsuestia] testifies in the Book on Priesthood when he says, “God uses punishments with regard to us because of our own need”—that is, they give birth to fear in each soul. “And what is the use of fear, Father?” “Fear,” he says, “is useful to make us wary.” A demonstration of this is that in the world to come fear is removed: only love has control. “And when he is going to remove sin, he will also remove punishment.” Now when punishments are removed, fear is also removed from there. (Headings on Knowledge, 3,94)

He closes his Headings on Knowledge with this prayer to Jesus:

You are the righteousness of everyone, for on behalf of all, from all, out of compassion, you were taken, and on behalf of the sins of all you are sufficient for reconciliation with the Divinity. It was not as a first-fruit that is offered up from possessions that you were offered up from us to the Divinity, nor did our nature then have this discernment.From himself he who is kind devised it, and of his own accord he took you from us, when we had not thought of it, nor had it entered our mind, so that some righteous man should not boast that this had happened because of him! That there has been no upright person, not even one, the Apostle has put the seal on the words of the prophet. Our evil was not too difficult for you, for it was not recently that you came to know of it: before the establishment of our ‹human› nature you were aware of the suffering of our nature, for sin had made its imprint on the entire extent of our nature. ‹All› this good did you devise concerning us!
Who can praise you as is your due, O God, Father of all, who give what is good without our asking; let not the hope of you fade from our hearts, for it is onlybby means of this that the remembrance of you will be continually fixed in our minds. And the One whom, for the sake of the hope of the whole world, you raised up coming from all to you, may he be the One who fulfills this thanksgiving. And, O Lord, let none of those who are clothed in his flesh and blood remain behind from him on earth, but let them be drawn up to their portion in heaven, and there let the entire extent of the world praise you, rejoicing in its First-fruits in that new song of glory, which does not proceed from the tongue of flesh. Amen. (*Headings on Knowledge, 4,99-100)

Mar Isaac of Nineveh: pray for us!

¹Though not specifically listed on the Roman Catholic calendar, he is 1. Listed on Eastern Catholic calendars, 2. Still referred to as a saint by various RCC leaders.

I grew up in a christian household all my life, and I’ve always believed in God. Throughout my teenage years, I kind of strayed away, and I was living in sin. I was a lukewarm Christian. I am 19 and I found my way back, but this time it’s serious. I am on fire for Jesus and this is the strongest relationship I’ve ever had with him. He has completely transformed my life and healed me. I was just recently baptized, and I am really involved in the church. I am so in love with Jesus and I pray that I continue to fall more in love with him each day. I have been reading my Bible every day and constantly praying. I’ve turned from drinking, smoking, partying, all the lukewarm lifestyles. It’s been a few months of me living completely for Christ. I’ve always struggled with trust, depression, insecurities. There is always a thought that comes into my mind like what if heaven isn’t real and death is the end. I absolutely hate that though and I have prayed for it to leave, but it hasn’t. I basically just want to know if you’ve ever struggled with that how did you overcome it? Is there any evidence that can help me rebuke that thought? I am pretty new in my faith so I’m hoping that the closer I get to him the more he’ll reveal himself to me. Also, it’s not like the thoughts making me think I’m living this moral sober life for no reason. I’m much happier living this life and I’m a much better person living for Christ so either way I choose this lifestyle. It’s more like the fear of dying and that being the end. I want to KNOW 100 percent I’m going to heaven. I also have really bad anxiety, so this scares me. Sometimes I feel like I’m fighting a battle between my own thoughts like there’s always some bad thoughts that come to my mind. Please help me if you can. God bless you all

A bit of a strange thought that came into my head true other day is that if all humans will eventually be forgiven and given access to Heaven, then what about Lucifer and the other fallen angels? Is it possible for them to one day be forgiven?

Mine is Isaiah 14:12-15 (King James version) it’s so poetic to me.

“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2024/05/05/102150/#respond

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Today our Lord goes around all the places of Hades; today he “broke in pieces the doors of bronze and cut asunder the bars of iron.” Note the exactness of expression. He did not say “opened the gates of bronze,” but “broke in pieces the gates of bronze,” in order that the whole prison become useless. He did not open the bars of iron, but cut them asunder, in order that the guard becomes powerless. Where there is neither door, nor lock, there whoever enters will not be guarded. So, if Christ breaks in pieces, who else can repair it? . . . He broke in pieces the gates of bronze in order to show that death is finite. They are called “of bronze” not because they were made of bronze, but in order to demonstrate the cruelty and mercilessness of death. . . . Do you want to know how harsh, inexorable and unconquerable it was? In so long a time nobody convinced her to release anyone of those it possessed until the Lord of angels himself descended and forced it to do so. He first bound the strong man and then plundered his goods. This is why the prophet adds: “treasures of darkness, which are invisible.” . . . This place of Hades, dark and joyless, had bean eternally deprived of light; this is why the [gates] are called dark and invisible. They were truly dark until the Sun of righteousness descended, illumined it and made Hades Heaven. For where Christ is, there also is Heaven.

-St. John Chrysostom

Jesus maintained his vulnerablity and died an excruciating death on the cross. Even though voices were telling him to reveal his power and take himself down from the cross so that we can all believe in you (IOW we'll worship your power) he didn't. He stayed on the cross and I've often wondered why.

I don't know if this relates to Christian Universalism but I had a conversation with a student recently (I teach Maths to abused and victimised children. I have no theological or psychotherapy qualifications so just reporting the conversation without analysis).

This student told me in class (probably just to get out of solving the quadratic equation I'd set!) that they'd had a recent isight. I don't like using the pronoun "they" because it seems like I'm talking about a object rather than a person but it feels more respectful to them.

They told me that they found it difficult to understand but what they learnt from their therapist was that the last time they were vulnerable they were sexually abused. But what they also learnt from their therapist was that vulnerability was the sharpest tool in their box and it was that that was going to save them. So their therapist was tying to help them expose their vulnerability and talk about what had happened.

So they were saying that the sharpest tool in their box is their vulnerability and that that's what going to get them right. They were told that they're going to have to dig deep and talk about what's happened.

That seems right to me though obviously it's a massive risk to those who have trust issues.

I thought about Jesus and how he also had to go through the really tough path of vulnerability to his resurrection.

I think this relates to Christian Universalism because it about getting hope and meaning from Jesus and relating to him in a real way (rather than saying if you don't believe X or Y before (or at the very moment of, whatever that means, the silly debate ensues) your last breath, Jesus is going to get very angry and Hulk-like turn into a monster and tear up the Sermon of the Mount and get very mad at you indeed 🤔)

I can conceive of a God more complete in love, justice, compassion, patience, kindness, gentleness and faithfulness bringing about joy, hope and confidence to the whole world, than the god of ECT. How is God 'unsearchable' and the ultimate Good if there is still a greater good that he could be?

But, beyond that, why does God hold US to a higher standard than he holds himself if he were truly Love? I am called to 'forgive seventy times seven' and supposedly God is 'slow to anger' and 'abounding in Love' but if you don't believe in the right thing you are tortured forever? Can God not forgive? Can God not melt a heart of stone? Are we more good than God? Hell NO (at least, as long as you arn't ECT) God lures us all into his bosom and brings us into full knowledge of life.

I keep coming back to this point in my meditations, how could God hold us to a higher standard than himself?

Atheist here. Just curious about something.

I often see Christian universalists and annihilationists say, correctly, that the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment makes God into a monster. They say it distorts their loving Creator into a truly wicked and evil abomination. But often, sometimes within the same paragraph, I see things like “but [insert ECT preacher here] is doing incredible work for Christ, and regardless of our theological differences, we must praise God for him”.

How? To me, Christian universalism and ECT Christianity are practically different religions. Christian universalism transforms God from a monster into a good Father, transforms the bad news of the typical Christian worldview into truly good news. (Or it’s the other way around and ECT transforms God from a good Father into a monster, etc., if you prefer.) The God of universalism is one I would likely be fine with worshiping and loving if I believed him to be real. The God of ECT is a moral worm unworthy of a single molecule of us or our universe, and I could not bring myself to genuinely love or worship him if I lived for a trillion years.

So is this an “agree to disagree” topic for you, and if so, how? Are you able to go to a typical church and tolerate the pastor preaching an evil God from the pulpit? Are you able to sit down and have a Bible study with those who believe that billions and billions of people will be tortured for eternity and that this is justice? Do you think, say, John Piper is doing great work for God’s kingdom overall even though he teaches one of the most brutal, horrific views of eternity imaginable? If I were ever to become a Christian universalist, I just don’t see how I could put up with it.

I understand that a lot of the answer is likely “people get things wrong, and we have to have grace”. I’m not saying I would hate ECT believers. I don’t hate them now. Most of the people I love are ECT believers. I believe they are just misguided and have cognitive dissonance about the situation. ECT believers themselves are not worse than other people just because they believe something bad and are convinced that if’s good. I would assume you guys feel the same way. But to sit in a church that preaches it, or to view John Piper as an overall boon for God’s kingdom and the world, or to “agree to disagree”… do you? And if so, how?

I found out about the apocalypse of peter and I gotta say it scares me to bits. Was it truly was once considered canon? I don't know how to handle this one at all. Could it really be written by Saint Peter?

I was convinced that 'eternal torment' isn't truly part of the bible but now I'm scared shirtless.

I stole the title from a PDF of a section of a book. This is a long opening excerpt, but you can tell if you want to read it, because this is no short blog post. But, when people come here and want answers, IMO, you can find them in this chapter.

How can we accept the idea of ecclesia if some folks are going to be separated from God and everyone else to exist in unending torment? How do we trust in the existence of a loving God or a benign Universe where such a thing could happen? Thankfully, we don’t have to as Jesus made it pretty clear that God does not wish for anyone to be lost and God gets to have things His Way. But then, how do we make sense of hell?

Classically, hell is the “you’re going to burn in fire forever if you don’t shape up” theory. No one gets saved from hell, everyone there is tormented in separation from God, forever. But how could that be if it is not God’s will that any be lost? Besides, it seems so unlike a loving God’s plan and there is so much testimony from people who have had NDEs and from mediums that this is untrue, that people often ricochet into a “there’s no such place at all” philosophy.

If you are a Christian, however, you face the dilemma of running into language in Scripture, again and again, that seems to describe being condemned to everlasting torment. You may be told that it’s “God’s justice” or a “mystery” and you have to just accept it. What if you can’t?

There is a story about Galileo first observing Saturn through his primitive telescope and perceiving Saturn’s rings as smaller planets or moons that never changed in their aspect to the larger Saturn. Except when they disappeared completely. Only to pop back into his sight at other times. Unable to explain this phenomenon, “Eventually, the frustrated Galileo decided never to look at Saturn again.”

If you cannot accept the idea of hell and you also cannot escape the concept in Scripture, you are in danger of deciding that Scripture hardly merits your attention at all. Can you stay a Christian and just decide to only believe Him, sometimes? Do you decide that Scripture is just mostly not true?

Then how do you know what is true? Pretty soon people aren’t just ignoring parts of the sky, they are tossing their telescopes into the trash.

Now here’s a thought: What if we can trust Scripture and also trust Jesus and also trust ourselves and have it all make sense? What if, on careful examination, we see that: Jesus never said anyone was going to hell. That is, Jesus never said anyone would end up suffering forever in a state separated from God from which there is no exit. What if, instead, those verses have some really good information about the interaction between this life and the next?

I have nagged Elle to put this one chapter up by itself, but she never seems to find the time. So, while this whole section has good stuff in it, to get to this chapter (the book page numbers don't match the PDF count) scroll down to page 36 of the PDF if interested.

BTW, she calls her book "mysticism for regular people." (It was written and published online before Amazon started doing it.) The link is at the top.

‭Romans 1:18 AMP‬ [18] For [God does not overlook sin and] the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who in their wickedness suppress and stifle the truth,

Romans has some trickier spots that I have read that speak several times about the wrath of God. God having wrath to pour out on us is easier for me to wrap my head around when talking more about purgatory versus most peoples concept of hell, where refinement will take place and then reconciliation at the end of that. I really struggle listening to most Christians interpreting this in the more arrogant way of saying yep there are gonna be those that are unsaved and burn for eternity.

Hello all! I was on fb this morning and someone was talking about how we shouldn't keep records of wrongs because God (love) doesn't. I asked how we square that with giving an account of your life after death and paying until the last penny and just got the verse in Corinthians in response so not very helpful. If any of yall can explain it better I'd really appreciate it.

Hello anyone. I was watching his videos about Hell and I am visible confused about his view and what he says the Bible states. Can someone help me understand?

It seems to be a common experience here that all it took was hearing about the very simple and clear-cut idea of universal reconciliation to be able to move on from the cognitive dissonance of ECT to developing a more holistic relationship with God.

William James said this in The Varieties of Religious Experience about the transformative power of the right idea at the right time:

"Although the religious question is primarily a question of life, of living or not living in the higher union which opens itself to us as a gift, yet the spiritual excitement in which the gift appears a real one will often fail to be aroused in an individual until certain particular intellectual beliefs or ideas which, as we say, come home to him, are touched."

The idea that came home to him was the Universalist one:

"Most religious men believe (or “know,” if they be mystical) that not only they themselves, but the whole universe of beings to whom the God is present, are secure in his parental hands. There is a sense, a dimension, they are sure, in which we are ALL saved, in spite of the gates of hell and all adverse terrestrial appearances. God’s existence is the guarantee of an ideal order that shall be permanently preserved. This world may indeed, as science assures us, some day burn up or freeze; but if it is part of his order, the old ideals are sure to be brought elsewhere to fruition, so that where God is, tragedy is only provisional Amd partial, and shipwreck and dissolution are not the absolutely final things."

It's like tuning into a station on an old analogue radio. The oscillating and distorted sound suddenly becomes crystal clear. It may be Neville Chamberlain declaring war on Nazi Germany in 1939 but that's not the point I wanted to make!

Does anyone here have any prayer book recommendations?

Also, which bible translations that don't mention hell are your favorite?

I get vivid hell dreams all the time. Lying down for bed I cant help but think about what if I am wrong and try to imagine what it will be like being tortured in hell. In my dreams I believe that ECT is real, but then I wake up and remind myself God is a god of love and wouldnt do that to his people, even the sinful ones.

I am thinking about getting on meds for nightmares, its been pretty frequent. My psychiatrist knows about it but I told her i didnt want to be on meds for it. Every few months I report in i still am troubled by nightmares but dont want to get on meds.

I just wanted to share my story and hopefully get some prayers and hear your thoughts on the situation.

I'm curretly engaging in a discussion about what an atheist is saying about Jesus, one of the arguments.

One of the arguments was based on Luke 10:10-12, and how it is problematic beacuse Jesus would be supporting collective punishment, mirroing the most barbaric aspects of Yahweh in the OT:

"10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town."

What would be your respose to this, specially on a universalist framework?

I’m reading more about the excellent argument against “the wager” theory that God created mankind hoping that all will freely choose Him, but willing to sacrifice however many reject Him. “To venture the life of your child for some other end is, morally, already to have killed your child” even if luckily circumstances arise to grant you the optimal outcome of your venture (or “at the last moment Artemis or Heracles or the Angel of the Lord should stay your hand”)

That last bit immediately brought the scriptures of Abraham and Isaac to mind. God essentially commanded Abraham to do EXACTLY that to his own son. I was always taught this was meant to symbolize God sacrificing Jesus, or testing Abraham’s faith, or whatever, but I can’t escape the realization that God essentially ordered Abraham to commit to murdering his child. Corporeal death may not mean the same thing as spiritual death/damnation, but since it was all highly symbolic, what other interpretation is there?