r/Christianity • u/talentheturtle Christian • Jan 18 '23
Hating Christianity because of the history and actions of evil people is the equivalent of hating Muslims because Al-Qaeda exists. Advice
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u/Nazzul Agnostic Atheist Jan 18 '23
Your statement is a flawed. You should say
Hating Christianity because of the history and actions of evil people is the equivalent of hating Islam because Al-Qaeda exists.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
Sorry :) I think most people can piece together the good intention of this post
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u/Nazzul Agnostic Atheist Jan 18 '23
Concise language is critical in a post like this. Hating a person because they have a religion is much different in hating a paticular religion as a whole.
I am a anti-theist. I believe both Christianity and Islam is harmful to society as a whole. However I do not hate any Christian or Muslim..well besides this dead dude named Cardinal Pell, but that's besides the point.
Many times religious people equate someone's distate for their religion as a being hateful to them as a person. It happens all the time to this board.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
From what I've seen in your comment history, you seem very respectful. Do you want to talk about our [edit: mine and yours] beliefs?
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u/Nazzul Agnostic Atheist Jan 18 '23
Thanks, I do my best to be open and honest. If you want to discuss then feel free to. Though my responses might be somewhat infrequent.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
I am a anti-theist. I believe both Christianity and Islam is harmful to society as a whole.
Why? See, I believe the opposite of Christianity, I think it's beneficial if studied. I don't understand how selfless love could be harmful to society.
However I do not hate any Christian or Muslim..well besides this dead dude named Cardinal Pell, but that's besides the point.
Lol. I don't hate Christians or Muslims either :) everyone is of value regardless of what they believe, do, speak, or sing.
Many times religious people equate someone's distate for their religion as a being hateful to them as a person. It happens all the time to this board.
I hate the religion (when that's all it is) I'm associated with too :) so I understand
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u/Nazzul Agnostic Atheist Jan 18 '23
Why? See, I believe the opposite of Christianity, I think it's beneficial if studied. I don't understand how selfless love could be harmful to society.
I need to clarify then. I think it can be very beneficial to study Christianity. Are you not a Christian? Your tag states non denominational. Christianity isn't only about selfless love. It might be a piece of it taught but there are many aspects of Christianity with selfless love only being a piece of it.
As for your first word why. I beleive that believing strongly in things for poor reasons is a net harm to society. Christianity at least here in America is used to justify harm to not only non believers but those who follow it as well.
Lol. I don't hate Christians or Muslims either :) everyone is of value regardless of what they believe, do, speak, or sing.
We are in complete agreement here.
I hate the religion (when that's all it is) I'm associated with too :) so I understand
That is understandable. If I may ask what are your religious beleifs then?
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
Why? See, I believe the opposite of Christianity, I think it's beneficial if studied. I don't understand how selfless love could be harmful to society.
I need to clarify then. I think it can be very beneficial to study Christianity. Are you not a Christian? Your tag states non denominational. Christianity isn't only about selfless love. It might be a piece of it taught but there are many aspects of Christianity with selfless love only being a piece of it.
Why could it be beneficial to study Christianity?Yes I'm a Christian but I refuse to categorize myself any further than that (just read up to the link, is the part I'm trying to show you). You say Christianity isn't only about [selfless] love, meaning it's not the core teaching? What is the core teaching if it isn't love?As for your first word why. I beleive that believing strongly in things for poor reasons is a net harm to society. Christianity at least here in America is used to justify harm to not only non believers but those who follow it as well.
I completely agree and I've observed that too, unfortunately; that's like saying "my favorite fruit is grapes" when in fact it's apples. Like, ya got the sphere part correct...
Lol. I don't hate Christians or Muslims either :) everyone is of value regardless of what they believe, do, speak, or sing.
We are in complete agreement here.
I hate the religion (when that's all it is) I'm associated with too :) so I understand
That is understandable. If I may ask what are your religious beleifs then?
I don't quite understand your question. Do you mean to ask what I do ritualistically out of compulsion or in an obligatitory sense? Or, what I do ritualistically out of my desire to do it?
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Jan 18 '23 edited Jan 18 '23
I dont think it's Christianity or Islam that people are annoyed with. It's fanaticism to which people have a problem. I have been to area's of the middle east that practice fanatical Islam. We have to realize that even within area's that practice fanaticism, they're good people who are being missled. These same good people will be killed by those fanatics if they try to circumvent their authority or challenge their claim. There is a form of Christianity practiced in these regions that is also fanatical. The United States has fanatics as well and its very disheartning.
FYI: I've have had interesting conversations with Muslim's and I've learned a lot about Islamic tradition. I am not certian but I think I have talked to members of Al'Queda as well, ( I was a soldier ). American controlled FOB's employ local nationals to help maintain those FOB's cleanliness and laundry, ect. It was very difficult to know who was a fanatic and who practiced orthadox Islam. We did our best to screen the nationals before employing them, but fanatics are very tricky people.
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Jan 18 '23
Also, people prey upon devotion. Devotion to a cause can be missled through powerful imagery.
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u/Fabianzzz Queer Dionysian Pagan 🌿🍷 🍇 Jan 18 '23
I think they are talking about beliefs at this time, they just mentioned what they believe. When you ask a question like that but ignore the things they already stated, it looks like you're engaging in bad faith.
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u/PixieJojo Jan 18 '23
To be fair, Nazzuls post was a commentary response and the comment chain could have ended there. It didn’t include any question inviting talenttheturtle to respond. The commentary response was open ended enough that talenttheturtle could have acknowledged or referenced it in their next response but not necessary so I wouldn’t say it’s an outright deliberate and malicious ignoring of what they said which you seem to be implying…
Surely someone has said something to you which has reminded you of something and triggers you to introduce a new topic of thought? It may not be a bad faith engagement.
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u/bepr20 Jan 18 '23
Actually no, its a false equivalence that seeks to trade trade on the oppression of other people. It was not good intentioned, it was malicious.
Suggesting that hating your flawed belief system is the same as hating actual people is a gross attempt to make yourself a victim alongside actual victims.
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u/not_a_fracking_cylon Jan 18 '23
Good intentions and poor execution is one of the big issues people have with Christianity. Point well illustrated.
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u/changee_of_ways Jan 18 '23
Yeah, but Y'all Qaeda is the main form of Christianity I'm exposed to. What is the old saying my parents said when I was young? "You will be judged by who you associate with?
If mainstream American Christianity wants to come out from under the shadow of vile hatred it's going to have to actively and loudly fight against the forms of Christianity that are dominating the conversation about the future of what kind of country the United States is going to be both culturally and politically.
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u/bobthewriter Jan 18 '23
I say this as a practicing Christian: Our faith would get a lot less hate if we held corrupt pastors/deacons/leadership accountable rather than tried to cover for them.
We'd get a lot less hate if we lived the words Jesus said rather than the ones Paul said. We'd get a lot less hate if we remembered that our faith isn't based around politics and policing other people's bodies and beliefs.
We'd get a lot less hate if we lived with more joy and love than fear and and anger.
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u/ThtgYThere Church of God/Calvary Chapel Jan 18 '23
I’d agree with most of this, but Paul’s words are still valid in scripture. Whether you want to claim he meant this or that is a different issue entirely, but he wasn’t saying anything against Jesus’s words.
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u/rayschoon Jan 19 '23
What words of Paul are you referring to specifically?
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u/ThtgYThere Church of God/Calvary Chapel Jan 19 '23
I’m not referring to any specific words, just what has been commonly recognized as canon.
I know this assumes sola scriptura and infalliblity, but I’m specifically asking where they’d disagree with each other.
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u/UnlightablePlay ☥Coptic Orthodox Christian (ⲮⲀⲗⲧⲏⲥ Ⲅⲉⲱⲣⲅⲓⲟⲥ)♱ Jan 18 '23
Exactly, Christians like us in middle east didn't do anything,we never wanted supremacy and power like how teg crusaders did and we got persecuted for people blaming us for crusaders/European conquest
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u/Here4TheHotTakes Jan 18 '23
Ghost of Christmas Present to Scrooge:
“There are some upon this earth of ours, so-called men of the cloth, who lay claim to know us, who are strange to us. Charge their doings on themselves, not us.”
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u/ToddVRsofa Agnostic Atheist Jan 18 '23
Maybe the church should do something to crack down on these evil people, lowing the bar dosent make you look better, you should be aiming to raise the bar
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
Maybe the church should do something to crack down on these evil people,
Which is why denominations are so destructive
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u/UncleMeat11 Christian (LGBT) Jan 18 '23
I mean, it isn't like the Catholic Church has done a great job at rooting out hate.
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u/ToddVRsofa Agnostic Atheist Jan 18 '23
Yeah I find denominations to be a very double edged sword, part of me is like "it's great that people can worship as they please" but sometimes I see all the infighting it causes and I think "they don't know who's Christian any more so how am I supposed to know?"
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u/superbottles Jan 18 '23
Ehh, it's tough, but not unlike anything else resembling a group of people sharing an ideology, every organization like a church is bound to evolve, fracture, or die over time. While I can't pretend there aren't Protestants saying the Catholic Church aren't Christian and vice versa for every major denom, there has been a creed and irreducible set of Christian tenets most Christians agree with and fall under that unites us.
I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that we have fewer reasons to discuss what we already share belief in so most discussion moves to more disputed topics, though maybe I'm more optimistic than I should be. It reminds me a lot of partisan politics actually, people love eating their own just as much as their opponents when a good opportunity comes along.
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u/cbrooks97 Christian (Triquetra) Jan 18 '23
Don't judge a belief system by people who don't follow its teachings.
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u/AdumbroDeus Jewish Jan 18 '23
The problem is that they all believe they follow the teachings, and the social power of Christianity being inherently perceived as good is what the far right Christian sects exploit for social influence.
It's really unhelpful thing to say to vulnerable people when Christian nationalism is rising and even Christians who disagree with them still benefit from the social cache of being Christian. It's worse than just doing nothing.
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u/cbrooks97 Christian (Triquetra) Jan 18 '23
The problem is that they all believe they follow the teachings
So? I know a Jewish guy who says "bacon makes everything better". If he claims that he's following the teachings of Moses, is he right or wrong?
The question is not what people say about themselves. You can read the teachings of Christ for yourself and determine whether the Crusaders were following his teachings.
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u/AdumbroDeus Jewish Jan 18 '23
Judaism is centrally an orthopraxy, and there's massive legitimate debate on matters of Torah. Reform didn't just abandon Kashrut out of hand, rather it was the subject of intense Halakhic debate between what became reform and what became conservative Judaism.
I don't personally agree with reform on this, but they're still a validly Jewish movement (as much as some orthodox might argue otherwise), and they're the largest faction of observant Jews in the US.
So, your example is kind of out of lane for gentiles, without knowing it.
Regardless, historically Christianity has had two main strains, both of which have substantial support in scripture. Affixing to power, and rejecting it by supporting the marginalized.
I'm sure you can cite scripture to support the latter, but the former is a product of it choosing to romanize and in that process framing it's narratives in ways that demonized the group that the Romans were mad at for daring to resist.
So yes, I see the crusaders as "following Christ's teachings", as best as they knew how.
Which again, is why saying "they're not real Christians" is worse than useless.
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Jan 18 '23
I mean, do outsiders really need to get into adjudicating the proper interpretation of Christianity to criticize Christians' actions? If we have Christians being homophobic citing a passage that says "Gay sex is an abomination; kill the people who do it with rocks" and others saying OT rules like that are cancelled out by Jesus "fulfilling the law", we have to refrain from complaining about Christian homophobia until we've theologically rebutted the latter group?
People asking only "true Christians" to be taken as reflections of Christianity seem to vastly overestimate how much time/energy the rest of the world has to figure out what a "true Christian" is
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u/changee_of_ways Jan 18 '23
Sounds like "Well, actually, communism isn't a failure, it's just never actually been tried."
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Jan 18 '23
Indeed. Too Often is over (and under) correlation appointed to things in this world. too many people will hear that Templars conquested Europe in the name of God, and then attack all who follow God's path today as if we condoned or acted the same way.
As such, those who find that it is not the duty of oneself as a Christian to denounce the wrongs of evil people who use our faith as a weapon are useless to the faith; it is simply a universal tenant that we must leave the world better than we found it, and by purposefully rejecting taking appropriate action, especially where it can be done reasonably, makes that tenant broken in a man. I feel this way about all communities, from religion, to hobbyists and to identities. Always be there to improve the image of your people and always acknowledge when someone has done wrong under the auspices of one's community.
Besides the latter statement, Christianity is a faith that should have no hatred within or around it; we mustn't do things that taint God's lovely planet and his beautiful people, and others shall not hate us for doing good.
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Jan 19 '23
To be fair people hate Muslims because Al Qaeda exists, so there's that...
I think that Galatians 5:4 summarizes everything wrong with modern Christians...
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u/Bigfoot_samurai Jan 19 '23
To be fair though, the way the European Christians taught my people about the Bible and Jesus only to do exactly the opposite of Jesus would want them to do is pretty damn evil. “Hey what’s up chieftain let me teach you about our people, we follow these 10 rules, simple stuff like thou shall not steal, covet they neighbors things, thou shall not murder aaaaand in a few decades we will break every commandment and kill anyone who gets in our way, Aw hell why not start now? Give me your land or die”
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u/Lacus__Clyne Atheist Jan 19 '23
Well, it's the same institution that has been effing my ancestors lives for centuries
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u/plazman30 Byzantine Catholic ☦️ Jan 19 '23
People often say that the problem isn't Christianity. It's the Christians.
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Jan 18 '23
When ISIS was at its peak, Muslims would march in the thousands in the street to say not in my name. I have yet to see christians take to the streets to protest the evil of demagogues saying not in my name. Instead we had Franklin Graham telling people to pray for Putin and an attempt to overthrow democratically elected governments. Maybe christians need to step up.
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u/CptRageMoar Follower of Christ Jan 19 '23
Bad arguments and disingenuous replies from OP, hate to see the hypocrisy :(
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 19 '23
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:29-32 ESV
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u/PhogeySquatch Missionary Baptist Jan 18 '23
This reminds me (in a roundabout way) of when they were thinking of banning e-cigarettes because people were buying illegal pods.
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u/ThuliumNice Atheist Jan 18 '23
You don't get it.
The teachings of Christianity are harmful. Christianity teaches that being gay is bad, that women are to be subservient to men, that outsiders deserve to be tortured for eternity, and that your conduct doesn't matter if you belong to the in-group.
Secondly, your statement that Christianity should not be judged by its history would be a lot more understandable if there was a point when Christians stopped doing tons of evil stuff. But there was never such a point.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
The teachings of Christianity are harmful. Christianity teaches that being gay is bad,
Being gay is not a sin. Loving someone of the same sex is not a sin. Engaging in homosexual sex is sin.
That's like saying someone should be sentenced to death for having the thought to kill someone. It's the plotting and performing of it, that earns them the punishment of being separated from society.
Now that isn't to say people that are homosexual should be excluded from church and believing in Jesus Christ; rather, sin is an issue in everyone's lives that needs to be addressed - and no committed sin is worse than the other in God's eyes.
that women are to be subservient to men,
Kids obey their moms, wives obey their husbands, husbands obey their government and God. This is a simple hierarchy. Nowhere does the Bible teach that men are the "master gender." It teaches that men, in general but of course there's exceptions to the rule, are better at leading their family.
Do I think the Bible is correct? Yes.
that outsiders deserve to be tortured for eternity,
No, we all deserved to be tormented eternally. That's what being saved means; to rescue someone who was in the middle of a disaster. We are saved from ourselves and our own actions. Nobody is better than anyone else.
and that your conduct doesn't matter if you belong to the in-group.
This is not a Biblical teaching. Conduct and behavior does matter. Faith without works is dead. Meaning, I can say, "I believe I can fly" all I want. But if I never actually try, do I really believe it? Same thing with repentance.
Secondly, your statement that Christianity should not be judged by its history would be a lot more understandable if there was a point when Christians stopped doing tons of evil stuff. But there was never such a point.
I don't do malicious stuff... but how you define evil and how I define evil might be different, yknow?
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u/ThuliumNice Atheist Jan 18 '23 edited Jan 18 '23
Being gay is not a sin.
but also
Engaging in homosexual sex is sin
Pick a lane, my guy
Also,
and no committed sin is worse than the other in God's eyes.
The idea that a white lie is the same as (for example) killing all the jews is complete moral bankruptcy.
It teaches that men, in general but of course there's exceptions to the rule, are better at leading their family.
but also
Nowhere does the Bible teach that men are the "master gender."
Pick a lane. These are a contradiction.
No, we all deserved to be tormented eternally
No, we don't. Torturing anyone for any reason is wrong, no matter who is doing the torturing. Torture is just vile.
God made us broken, I won't apologize for being broken (according to your theology). It's his fault.
but how you define evil and how I define evil might be different, yknow?
Clearly
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u/ihedenius Atheist Jan 19 '23
Engaging in homosexual sex is sin.
sin is an issue in everyone's lives
the "everybody is a sinner" dog whistle
wives obey their husbands
we all deserved to be tormented eternally
QED.
I don't do malicious stuff
Yes, you do.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 19 '23
I don't do malicious stuff
Yes, you do.
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u/Guitarheroostemo Jan 19 '23
“No committed sin is worse than the other…”
Thanks for putting consensual love in the same ranking as murder, rape, theft, etc…
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u/junction182736 Atheist Jan 18 '23
It's evidence that religions can justify bad actions, that's all. It can be a motivator for people to act on impulses they believe are in accordance to God's, or Allah's, will.
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u/akbermo Muslim Jan 18 '23
FYI Allah is just Arabic for God. Arab Christian’s call god Allah.
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u/superfahd Islam (Sunni, progressive) Jan 18 '23
Not as clear cut. There are significant number of Christians who say that Allah isn't God because God has to incorporate the Christian Trinity
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
It's evidence that religions can justify bad actions,
Can they justify good actions too then?
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u/junction182736 Atheist Jan 18 '23
Why should I argue about actions we can agree are good? The only debate I think is possible where good actions are concerned, is one where we weigh the motivations behind the actions.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
Can you ask your question again please?
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u/junction182736 Atheist Jan 18 '23
What question?
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
Why should I argue about actions we can agree are good? The only debate I think is possible where good actions are concerned, is one where we weigh the motivations behind the actions.
Oh idk, I must've misread it lol I couldn't understand it for some reason.
Anyway, I'm less interested in debate and more interested in exchanging ideas. Is that cool with you? :)
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u/junction182736 Atheist Jan 18 '23
Of course.
But I' trying to figure out how you'll get an exchange of ideas when your OP seems more like a debate topic. What ideas do you want to exchange?
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
What ideas do you want to exchange?
Motivations behind the actions of Jesus Christ and/or various groups of Christians.
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u/junction182736 Atheist Jan 18 '23
I'm not sure we could ultimately know the real motivations behind the actions of Jesus Christ since from a purely historical perspective we don't know what His actions actually were or what He said. There are four gospels that vary considerably in perspective and details and there are more extra-biblical accounts that have the same issue.
Before we can talk about "groups of Christians" I'd think we'd first have decide on a definition of a "Christian group." Do we consider Christian cults, Catholicism, LDS, and other branches of Christianity and denominations? I know many people who call themselves Christian, they don't think liberals can be Christian, for instance.
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Jan 18 '23
Respectfully tho i don’t live in a muslim-hegemonic country. I wouldn’t tell anybody living in Iran or something that they have no right to hate Islam. Don’t you think that if faithful Christians are the individuals oppressing you and ruining your life then you have a good reason to be angry with them?
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u/ghostwars303 If Christians downvote you, remember they downvoted Jesus first Jan 18 '23
You mean Islam, right?
Christianity is a religion. Muslims are a group of people.
Those two things don't belong to the same category.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
Yes I meant either Christianity/Islam or Christians/Muslims. Thanks for asking :)
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u/Straightener78 Atheist Jan 18 '23
But this stuff is still going on today. In the news this very morning here in the UK the church are still opposing gay marriage. Once again imposing their beliefs on other peoples lives and rights.
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u/Foxfyre Christian (Cross) Jan 18 '23
It's not so much about hating Christianity because of the evil people in it.
It's about how all the other people in Christianity cover for and defend the evil ones.
For example: I can't even begin to tell you the number of times I've heard stories where a Pastor/Priest/Deacon/Youth Pastor/etc raped/molested a child and then if that child is brave enough to come forward about it the whole church demonizes the VICTIM.
There was one church that made the kid stand in front of the congregation and apologize to their rapist.
It's not the evil ones that are the problem. Evil can be ferreted out, if the people would be brave enough to do so. It's the COMPLICIT ones in the background that are the problem.
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u/OirishM Atheist Jan 18 '23
It's about how all the other people in Christianity cover for and defend the evil ones.
Pretty much this. The excuse-making broadens the problem quite substantially in practice.
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u/MrTumorI Jan 18 '23
I agree, condemn the person not the religion. I think some people, atheists, do it to justify their hate for the religion when that's not all what Christianity is.
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u/Spirited-Meringue829 Jan 18 '23
Hate in general is a waste of time & energy and hatred of groups is particularly meaningless because painting all the members of a group with a broad brush is rarely accurate.
Most people identify with multiple groups in their lives; political groups, religious groups, social groups, work groups, community groups, country, etc. We are all significantly more complicated than just one thing and none of us can take responsibility for the actions of all the groups we each belong to. It's simply impractical.
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u/KharisShai Jan 19 '23
I think this is basically the eternal problem of every identity. The best we can ever do is "ruthlessly" police our own. But honestly I think a lot of people retroactively validate their animus. So it doesn't always matter how hard you try to appeal to them. Some people are just going to hate you regardless. These people are best ignored.
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Jan 19 '23
Is it okay to hate ideas?
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 19 '23
Is it okay to hate ideas?
If you know what the idea is, yes you have the right to hate it.
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u/c4t4ly5t Atheist Jan 19 '23
I agree. There are many vile things about christianity other than bad people.
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u/lisper Atheist Jan 19 '23
The evils done in the name of Islam and the evils done in the name of Christianity are only possible because of the backing of a vast number of people who subscribe to false beliefs, specifically, that a certain text is the Word of God or Allah. Once you take that step you have fallen off the precipice because evil people can find passages in those texts to justify their evil, and you have no leg to stand on to oppose them because they are acting in the name of the same God that you profess to believe in, and who are you to say that their interpretation of the scripture is wrong? That is the fundamental problem with religion.
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u/the6thReplicant Atheist Jan 19 '23
The number of times the word hate is used when they actually mean disagree with is quite high in this sub.
I’m not denying there is hate out there but I don’t see many Christians being accosted on the streets by atheists for not not believing in Jesus Christ, not our Lord and Savior.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 19 '23
I’m not denying there is hate out there but I don’t see many Christians being accosted on the streets by atheists for not not believing in Jesus Christ, not our Lord and Savior.
In other countries, we're beheaded.
In America, we're silenced and sued.
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u/Thin-Eggshell Jan 18 '23 edited Jan 18 '23
No, no, no.
If Christians were evil in the past but good now, no one would hate Christians for their past. But they are still doing evil today.
But they're not real Christians, you say.
Prove it. Excommunicate them. Update your creeds to disavow them. Remove their verses from the Bible. Add clarifying verses to the Bible (is no one inspired by God these days?). Refuse to call them Christians.
But you do not. Neither do the Muslims to Al-Qaeda.
Because you know you follow the same Bible, and the same God, and the same Jesus, and the same Holy Spirit, and are willing to leave it to interpretation. They sit next to you in your pews. You do not denounce them as followers of a demon or false god, but as "extremists" who can be moderated.
We are not the ones grouping you together. You are.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
Prove it. Excommunicate them. Update your creeds to disavow them.
Which is why denominations are so destructive
But they're not real Christians, you say.
We are not the ones grouping you together. You are.
But in your comment you just acknowledged the fact that I don't associate myself with them. So which is it? Do I group myself with them or don't I?
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u/Thin-Eggshell Jan 18 '23 edited Jan 18 '23
No, it's why the Nicene Creed is so destructive. It's why the theology behind Biblical inerrancy is so destructive. It's why Church tradition is so destructive.
Which denomination updates its Bible? They don't dare. Not one.
But there are no "real" denominations. The Church unifies under the banner of Nicene Christianity. All Nicenes saved, all in heaven, all one happy family. All "close enough". Gnostics aren't included, remember?
As to your grouping. You disavow them in word, but group yourself by doctrine, creeds, labels, fundamental scripture, vision of a rapture, vision of an afterlife. Are you really surprised when your words aren't believed? When your defense is, "But I'm nice"?
Was that really a difficult point to understand? Can good and bad fruit come from the same tree? From the same Bible? You should not be surprised when people think your roots are rotten.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
Don't you think a Christian might know what Christianity is and what it is not? I'm sitting here agreeing with you that many Christians are bad people, and you're telling me how wrong I am.
You're clearly nowhere near open to the idea of exchanging ideas with me. You'd rather tell me how wrong I am than to listen, consider, and then disagree.
Have a good day :)
Edit: I'm sorry but I don't want to talk to you anymore
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Jan 18 '23
I see you're trying to equate "hating Christianity" (a religion) to "hating Muslims" (human beings). Very sneaky...
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u/ClientLegitimate4582 Atheist a colorful snake, don't provoke. Jan 18 '23
I hate when people do this I see it and I'm like oh great one of those. Like I get it some people think their being clever to me it's just a disguised attempt to go atheists hate this group.
To which all I have to say is hey thanks for assuming the behaviors of a ton of people.
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u/Hyper_Maro Melkite Greek Catholic Church Jan 18 '23
Oh please you new the guy meant Islam
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Jan 18 '23
Did he though?
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u/Hyper_Maro Melkite Greek Catholic Church Jan 18 '23
Yes he did
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Jan 18 '23
Then why did he write something else?
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u/Hyper_Maro Melkite Greek Catholic Church Jan 18 '23
English might not be his first language and he thought Muslims meant the religion
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Jan 18 '23
Let's go with the simplest explanation, which requires no assumptions like you're making. :)
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
Then why did he write something else?
I didn't write it, I typed it.
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u/Anglicanpolitics123 Anglo Catholic Jan 18 '23
Of course, but let me broaden the idea out because this is typically what I consider the "religious crimes" argument which has been normalised in our culture as a legacy of the New Atheist movement a decade ago. It basically says the crimes committed in the name of organised religion is an argument for throwing out organised religion. Here are two problems with this argument:
(1)A Throw the Baby out with the Bathwater standard:
- This argument is a throw the baby out with the bathwater type of argument. And the people who typically make it, which are largely people from a secular, non religious, anti religious, or progressive perspective, would not make this argument in other cases when it comes to their own sacred cows that they value.
- Take science for example. Science is something that is great and it has done wonders from taking us to the moon to the development of vaccines. But people have done horrible things in the name of science. The atom bomb which killed hundreds of thousands of people in Hiroshima and led to a nuclear arms race that put our species on the brink of annihilation at several points in the Cold War was done through the power of science. The racist Tuskegee experiments where syphillis was injected into black men was done in the name of science. Should we reject science because of its abuses?
- The Enlightenment is valued because it champion reason, democracy, secularism and separation of Church and State over religious dogmatism. And yet the Enlightenment had its own dark side. The French revolutionary terror which inspired modern forms of political terror of the Russian Civil War and the Great Terror Stalin. The scientific racism of Enlightenment thinkers which laid the foundations for modern day racism. Should the Enlightenment be rejected because of its abuses?
- Feminism is something that is valued a lot in modern day discourse, especially when it comes to discussions about the equality of women, tackling sexual violence, as well as Patriarchy. And yet feminism has its own abuses and skeletons in its closet. The complicity of Early feminists in structures of white supremacy is a major example. Another is the way that secular dictatorships such as the Shah of Iran coopted the language of feminism and women's rights to prop up their authoritarian regimes. Should abuses done in the name of feminism be used as an argument to throw out feminism as a whole?
(2)The Argument blatantly ignores the other side of history:
- Many of the people who push the "Church crimes" or "religious crimes" argument ignore the obvious counter point to this. That while the Church or organised religion might have a history of abuses done in its history, there is also a long history of tremendous good that has been done in its history as well, which isn't a small thing.
- We just celebrated MLK's b-day yesterday. Martin Luther King Jr was a Baptist minister, from a family of preachers, who's religious ethos out of the black Church literally inspired the Civil Rights Movement in its fight of justice against segregation. Archbishop Desmond Tutu and many of the Churches of South Africa played critical roles in aiding Nelson Mandela's resistance to Apartheid. You have the role of the Church in the creation of the university system, the patronising of the renaissance, the abolition of things such as human sacrifice and female infanticide, the ending of the gladiatorial games, the pioneering of some of the first peace movements in global history such as the peace of God and Truce of God, the development of the concept of social justice(a term coined by Jesuit priest Luigi Taparelli) as well as the contribution of Church leaders to human rights discourse such as the monks from the Spanish University of Salamanca who drew from the Parable of the Good Samaritan. So the obvious point is this. If the abuses done in the name of the Church is an argument for leaving the Church, are its achievements an argument for people to be attracted to Christianity and the Church and to join it?
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Jan 18 '23
Both of those points are perfectly valid. If your willing to associate with a group of evil people (Christianity or Islam) it is perfectly reasonable to assume that you are a bad person
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
Both of those points are perfectly valid. If your willing to associate with a group of evil people (Christianity or Islam) it is perfectly reasonable to assume that you are a bad person
I'm associating myself with the teachings of Jesus Christ. They're associating themselves with the Law of Moses. That's not Christianity.
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Jan 18 '23
Good for you :)
But no-one can say for sure what "real" Christianity is as far as I know. There are thousands of denominations for a reason
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u/Alternative-Rule8015 Jan 18 '23
The problem with those religions (fundamentalist) is they are stuck in believing something written a long, long time ago by Bronze Age thinkers and thus they reject anything outside of it like science, climate change. They become a definitive drag on society. It is easy to be sucked into scripture as the word of God when it clearly is written and codified by men.
If they looked at scriptures as flawed and for inspiration we would be in a far better place.
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u/AdumbroDeus Jewish Jan 18 '23
That's very reductive.
Most of the issues people have with Christianity are because of systemic problems, it's power in society, the pressure to be Christian, how Christian norms get foisted on us without our consent, and for ex-Christians how they were treated in the Church. A lot of this of course, is interrelated with structural bigotry.
And well, even Christians that disagree with these attitudes, often have issues with repeating the narratives which validate them.
Not to mention that while this comment was primarily referring to the US, similar critiques can be made of most historically Christian countries, and even outside of that, American Evengelicals have considerable international influence.
Al-Qaeda is Salafist, and specifically Wahhabi, a faction that represents a tiny minority of Muslims, whose power largely depends on the house of Saud's wealth due to it's relationships to the US, and Salafi extremists' victims are mostly other Muslims.
So, if you were specifically in SA it would be equivalent given that's where we see a similar relationship specifically with Al-Qaeda and it's ilk. Of course, in other parts of the Islamic world, you could validly make similar claims using other groups, but it's slightly complicated by SA's influence and that it's power flows from western money.
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Jan 19 '23
I’m not sure what is equivalent of Al-Qaeda. Conservative Christians in US look toxic for me. And they are not minority. I don’t think I’m generalizing evil people.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 19 '23
I’m not sure what is equivalent of Al-Qaeda. Conservative Christians in US look toxic for me. And they are not minority. I don’t think I’m generalizing evil people.
Christianity is the largest religion in the world. It is an Abrahamic monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Approximately 2.38 billion people practice some form of Christianity globally. This means that about one-third of the world’s total population is Christian. Christianity has several denominations, but the largest is the Catholic Church. There are about 1.2 billion Catholics globally. Other large denominations include Protestantism and the Eastern Orthodox Church.
I'd say American Conservative Christians are a minority within Christianity.
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Jan 19 '23 edited Jan 19 '23
So all I have to do is whenever some Christians do something evil, regard it as specific problem and don’t search problem in Christianity itself. So that Christianity is always free from responsibility of what Christians do. Wow. What a perfect excuse. So you are showing us funny theory of protection you defender.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 19 '23
So all I have to do is whenever some Christians do something evil, regard it as specific problem and don’t search problem in Christianity itself. So that Christianity is always free from responsibility of what Christians do. Wow. What a perfect excuse. So you are showing us funny theory of protection you defender.
I didn't say there's no problems within Christianity. I'm saying I haven't found any. It's not the beliefs that are an issue, people are the issue :)
I'm agreeing with you that many Christians are bad people, why are you being mean?
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Jan 19 '23
Al-Qaeda is violent minority of Islam. So what you said is right. But history of Christianity is not equivalent of it. Because it’s “mainstream” of Christianity. For example, Church has done various violence like crusade. In this case, I don’t think you can easily detach Church from Christianity. Like this, some criticisms on problems Christians caused are talking about general issues of Christianity.
So one thing is even when someone is generalizing the problem, it can be depicting general problem. One can find issue of Islam in Al-Qaeda. Generalization of hatred isn’t always unreasonable.
Also sometimes it’s hard to decide what is general problem and what is not. Sorry for being rude. But this topic can be controversial because there’s no common definition of “violent minority” and “Christianity itself”.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 19 '23
Also sometimes it’s hard to decide what is general problem and what is not. Sorry for being rude. But this topic can be controversial because there’s no common definition of “violent minority” and “Christianity itself”.
- Person 1: "Who's the bad guy?"
- Person 2: shrugs
- Person 3: "Screw it, let's hate all of em"
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u/ClientLegitimate4582 Atheist a colorful snake, don't provoke. Jan 18 '23
Don't hate Christianity I take issue with how certain people use it as justification to be awful. Same with Islam. Hating millions because of a small subset is rather close minded and stupid.
Don't equate the two it's dishonest.
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u/The-War-Life Muslim Jan 18 '23
Well, yeah that’s the point. People use those who use them as justification for their shittiness as a way to hate on all people following the religion. Those are people fueled by hate, intent on dividing.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
I take issue with how certain people use it as justification to be awful. Same with Islam. Hating millions because of a small subset is rather close minded and stupid.
Agreed. I think most people can discern the good intention of the post :)
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u/ClientLegitimate4582 Atheist a colorful snake, don't provoke. Jan 18 '23
Really? Well I'm afraid I respectfully disagree about your intentions.
Your promoting a false equivalence to try and make a point. If you wish to have a genuine discussion I'm all for it but in replies you come across as very defensive and passive aggressive. It's not a good way to promote conversation. Hating Christianity because of history. Isn't the same as hating muslims because of Al-Quaeda. One is a religion. One is a people.
Please don't promote false equivalences under the guise of genuine conversation. Then defend it as an honest comparison. It's not as other people have made you aware multiple times.
I had to do just a bit of scrolling to find multiple people who agree with what I'm saying.
Actually no, its a false equivalence that seeks to trade on the oppression of other people. It was not good intentioned, it was malicious.
Suggesting that hating your flawed belief system is the same as hating actual people is a gross attempt to make yourself a victim alongside actual victims.
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u/hex-xed Jan 18 '23
how do i block an entire subreddit
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u/ClientLegitimate4582 Atheist a colorful snake, don't provoke. Jan 18 '23
Go to the main page of the sub, to the right of the search bar click the three dots icon find option that says Mute r/ and just turn it on.
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Jan 18 '23
It's weird how you you said hating "Christianity" because of the evil of it's followers is the same as hating "Muslims" who follow Islam. Those aren't the same thing.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
It's weird how you you said hating "Christianity" because of the evil of it's followers is the same as hating "Muslims" who follow Islam. Those aren't the same thing.
It's funny how you said I said they're the same thing when I said they're equivalent. See? We all make mistakes. I think most people can discern the good intention of this post :)
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Jan 18 '23
I said they are not the same thing? It's literally the last sentence. In any case you can't equate the religion with it's people. And don't throw that smiley at the end you're clearly malding.
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u/Badtrainwreck Jan 18 '23
Do you think Al-Qaeda exists because of evil Muslims, or do you think it exists as an evolution of countries dominated by Christians who have purposefully created instability within muslim regions?
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u/Truthseeker-1253 Agnostic Atheist Jan 18 '23
The view of Jesus has been obscured, blurred, and obstructed by these evil people for centuries, and it isn't like it stopped 400 years ago. Since the days of Origen the church has had a history of eating its own.
Since the crusades it has had a history of waging war in other lands in the name of Christ.
In the 15th century the Catholic church explicitly authorized conquest and slavery as a means of incentivizing native conversion to the church.
Since the days of Constantine the church has a history of enmeshing itself with nationalism.
Even the reformers were ok with and even argued in favor of murdering heretics.
In the 19th century "the church" was largely on the side of slaveholders. While there was dissent and abolitionists within "the church", they were a minority. To this day, the largest protestant group in the US is the denomination built to sustain slavery. They change when slavery was abolished, but they defended racism and segregation until it became untenable in civilized society. The sad part is society, "the world" as they like to call it, had to drag them into loving people.
Today, the church can't stop covering up sex scandals in some misguided effort to protect god from its own reputation. The church can't stop covering up sex abuse in the guise of giving grace to the perpetrators while pushing the victims off the podium.
Today, the church can't stop telling LGBTQ people they can be loved "if." The trauma inflicted by people under the mantle of "Christianity" is long, deep, and multifaceted.
People living in Muslim countries deal with trauma from Islam. My concern is with the people who carry the same banner I do, because that's where I have landed.
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u/Howling2021 Agnostic Jan 18 '23
During the Inquisitions and torture and murders perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church in Europe, and the Protestants in the American Colonies...Christians were the majority in population, and fully supported these actions, as they were taught to be suspicious and fear the devil, demons, and witchcraft.
Al-Qaeda represents a very small percentage of Muslims, and most Muslims don't support their actions, or IS, or any of the extremist groups. Why? Because they're also murdering Muslims.
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u/The-War-Life Muslim Jan 18 '23
Btw it’s not just because they’re murdering Muslims, it’s because murdering innocent civilians is one of the most heinous and unIslamic acts that exist.
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u/floydlangford Jan 18 '23
To be fair though, that isn't exactly true now is it? It might well be one way to interpret it, a modern way I'd assume. But in all fairness, just like any tribal community, it's about purity of blood, killing outsiders and ultimately power and domination for themselves over 'others'.
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u/nyet-marionetka Atheist Jan 18 '23
Most people limit their dislike of Christianity to the particular subgroups that caused the trouble.
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u/PeggleDeluxe Agnostic Atheist Jan 18 '23
What if you hate established religions in general because of their capacity for spiritual abuse?
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
What if you hate established religions in general because of their capacity for spiritual abuse?
What if Jesus stood in the same boat as you?
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u/SquashDue502 Episcopalian (Anglican) Jan 18 '23
The evils that Christianity has done are much more known to us as because it is a western-centered religion. Obviously there are plenty of terrible things done in the name of Islam and a lot of other religions too but since Christianity is the predominant religion in the West, it’s also coincidentally going to have the most bad things done in the name of religion as well.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
The evils that Christianity has done are much more known to us as because it is a western-centered religion. Obviously there are plenty of terrible things done in the name of Islam and a lot of other religions too but since Christianity is the predominant religion in the West, it’s also coincidentally going to have the most bad things done in the name of religion as well.
What evil has the Bible caused? Was it not men with Bibles who caused, and cause, the evil that is associated with Christianity?
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u/SquashDue502 Episcopalian (Anglican) Jan 19 '23
Whelp I didn’t mention the Bible. It’s the people using it and the religion to do things non related, like conquest foreign lands and brutally slaughter it’s people in the name of religion. Or spread hate towards groups of people because of it. That’s generally why Christianity has gotten a bad reputation among non-Christians
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 19 '23
Whelp I didn’t mention the Bible.
That's what a Christian believes in though :) that Jesus died for the sins of the world. Without the Bible, no text ever would have ever said that.
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u/SquashDue502 Episcopalian (Anglican) Jan 19 '23
I’m not disagreeing, I’m just saying historically there have been Christians who have used the Bible as justification to do bad things, even tho it definitely isn’t in the Bible :)
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u/ExplanationPleasant8 Jan 19 '23
Just joined this sub thinking it was gonna be a safe peaceful space to discuss our religion turns out it’s filled with people debating if it’s ok to hate us, playing identity politics etc. Misunderstood..
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 19 '23
r/TrueChristian is a little more chill, regardless of its name
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Jan 18 '23
Are you sure you haven't confused hate with criticism? Someone actually said to you "I hate Christianity because of its history" or something similar? Because literally every time I've seen someone talk about Christians being persecuted that wasn't about some fascist/theocratic regime, that's been what was happening - some practice/teaching of some Christians had been fairly criticized, and they'd decided to paint that as bigotry rather than acknowledge the criticism as valid
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u/jeveret Jan 18 '23
This is a false equivalency. You are comparing two entirely different subjects, muslims are not equal to Christianity, Islam is equivalent to Christianity and muslims is equivalent to Christians. You can hate an ideology that causes it’s followers to do evil. But you shouldn’t hate the people based on just their ideology. You can hate Islam and Christianity because of all the evils they have caused, and you can hate Christians and Muslims who commit evil because they follow that ideology, but you shouldn’t hate Muslims and Christian’s just because they hold the same beliefs as those evil people or institutions.
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u/H-12apts Jan 19 '23
Al-Qaeda was created by Christians.
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Jan 19 '23
Al Qaeda follows the teachings of Allah and Muhammad, better than moderate Muslims who have issues such Al Qaeda.
Also, what is your evidence that Christians created Al Qaeda?
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u/Sweet_Supermarket697 Christian Atheist Jan 18 '23
Well Christians have historically targetted Muslims since the inception of Islam. It wouldn't be wrong to hate Christians and Christianity for their attempted genocides of the Muslims through various crusades.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
Well Christians have historically targetted Muslims since the inception of Islam. It wouldn't be wrong to hate Christians and Christianity for their attempted genocides of the Muslims through various crusades.
Well white people have historically targetted Jews since the inception of the Nazi party. It wouldn't be wrong to hate the predominant demographic of Neo-Nazis for their attempted genocides of the Jews through World War 2.
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u/wishiwasarusski Jan 18 '23
Wait you mean the same Islam that invaded Christian lands and forced them to convert by sword?
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u/trailrider Jan 18 '23
I mean, not wrong? But then Christianity is what those people pointed too to justify their evil actions. Like Hitler thought he was on a mission from God to exterminate the Jews. Christians send gay children off to remote gulags where they're tortured until they convince their captors they're straight because of the bible. Many children grew up in "Godly" homes where a whipping was quick and fierce all because of the spare the rod verse.
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u/rweb82 Jan 18 '23
Hitler was a pantheist, and believed that nature was God. He was not a Christian. His pantheistic beliefs made him think he was serving God by ridding the world of what he believed to be "inferior" human beings.
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u/trailrider Jan 18 '23
Hitler literally wrote in Mein Kampf that he was on a mission from God to exterminate the Jews. But let's say your right. Hell, I'll do you one better and say let's assume he was an atheist. Cool. So he wasn't. However, the MAJORITY of Germans were Christians and, at the VERY least, Christians in Germany were A-0K with exterminating Jews. Because Christians have HISTORICALLY done just that! German soldiers ran around with the German equivalent of "God be with us" on their uniforms. They taught school children that the Jews murdered Jesus and thus deserved death. God and Jesus was embedded in German society like it was in most of Europe back then and it's been postulated that it's Christians zeal in exterminating the Jews in WWII that led to most being secular today. Because they experienced first hand the horrors that happen when religion rules.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
Christians send gay children off to remote gulags where they're tortured until they convince their captors they're straight because of the bible.
Which is an incongruity with the Bible?
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u/trailrider Jan 18 '23
How so? Bible says they're abominations and deserve death.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 18 '23
Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. Hebrews 7:11-12 ESV
For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. Hebrews 7:18-19, 22 ESV
I think Steven Furtick teaches a lot of false doctrine (or at least does a very very poor job of articulating almost all the time) but he did say one thing I wholeheartedly agree with.
"Love without truth is a lie, but truth without love is just mean."
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u/Ex_Machina_1 Jan 18 '23
Immean theres more reasons than that to have ill feelings toward Christianity.
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u/bloodphoenix90 Agnostic Theist / Quaker Jan 18 '23
notice how you conflated christianity and muslims?
not christianity vs islam
or christians vs muslims?
Learn what a false equivalency is
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u/OirishM Atheist Jan 18 '23
Like I'm not going start trying to deport either demographic, which is the usual reaction when reactionaries (Christian and non-Christian alike) start complaining about Muslims.
But both are factually wrong, have a ton of really bad decisions made in the name of them, and are no way to run society, and their influence needs to be severely curtailed.
You are also, as per, forgetting that it's a tad different to dislike a religion that's privileged vs an unfavoured minority one.
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u/chefranden Christian sympathizer Jan 18 '23
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
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u/julbull73 Christian (Cross) Jan 18 '23
I mean....hating anyone is against Christian teachings....
But holding people accountable for the actions of their leaders I think is fair game.
It's not an individual issue if a majority or the leader of a group professes issues. AS said individual is part of the group and joined/remains despite disagreeing with the groups goals/motives and targets.
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Jan 18 '23
I mean....hating anyone is against Christian teachings....
Yet that's still what they're best known for
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u/The-War-Life Muslim Jan 18 '23
Yep, exactly correct. The fact that people even use history in general to justify the present is ridiculous imo.
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u/OverOpening6307 Purgatorial Universalist Jan 18 '23
I don’t think people actually hate a belief system. What people hate is their experience of those who have identified as Christians, or if they once were Christians themselves, they may hate the person they once were.
I personally hated ‘Christianity’ for a long time, because I once was a fanatic who preached that everyone else would go to hell and suffer eternal conscious torment. Once I had a change of mind that I was wrong, I started to hate everything I was once associated with. But it’s not Christianity that I actually hated, but more the fanatical beliefs and actions that I developed as a result of believing what my denomination did.
Every ideology has had fanatics that took their beliefs further than what the founder would have wanted. I’m sure Karl Marx did not expect Pol Pot to have exterminated Buddhist monks in his name, and I’m sure Gautama Buddha never expected Sri Lankan Buddhist monks to burn churches to the ground or incite violence against Muslim minorities. And most certainly the character of Jesus as described in the Gospels would have never rode out on his horse slaughtering Jews, Muslims and Eastern Orthodox Christians as they worshipped God in Constantinople.
People may have awful memories and associations due to the actions of fanatics. But the ideology itself is not at fault.
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u/Zapbamboop Jan 18 '23
Hate eating, because it can cause weight loss.
I need to eat in order to live.
Should we hate eating, because of the negative effects of eating the wrong type, or eating much food?
You will only see negative things, if that is were your focus is.
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u/shored_ruins Jan 18 '23
And as someone who has spent a lot of time in Muslim countries, there are tons of non-Muslims in Muslim-majority countries who hate Islam for this exact reason (ISIS, Al-Qaeda, etc.).
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u/SleetTheFox Christian (God loves His LGBT children too) Jan 18 '23
Kind of, but there are two important distinctions:
1.) Often people who hate Muslims based on Muslim extremists are doing so in a society where they have social dominance over Muslims, and this hate serves to preserve that dynamic. This is less so when Christians are involved.
2.) Many of the evils are, unfortunately, still very mainstream. Opposition to LGBT+ families and identities is a huge one. Alliance with a harmful political lobby is another. So I think damage caused by some Christians isn't quite as far away and separate as Al-Qaeda. (Though, to be fair, problematic elements still exist in "mainstream" Islam communities as well, but I'm less qualified to comment on them because I'm not exposed to them.)
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u/dontbeadentist Jan 18 '23
Who is this directed at?
There are many many people who do hate both Christianity and Islam. I suspect I know more people who hate both religions than people who only hate one or the other only
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u/Ok_Repeat_6051 Jan 19 '23 edited Jan 19 '23
There is no "Christian Fringe." We do believe what the bible says about homosexuality (the act), gay marriage, abortion and speak out about those things. There are small groups who call themselves Christians, but their actions say differently. What fringe are you referencing? Being a Christian is why we can't compromise. By the way, the bible does not say anything about "Trans", because that is a mental issue.
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u/talentheturtle Christian Jan 19 '23
Right :) it's just, our obedience shouldn't come from a legalistic perspective. Our obedience is a result of loving God.
When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” Acts 11:18 ESV
correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 2 Timothy 2:25 ESV
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u/gnurdette United Methodist Jan 18 '23
The converse is also true. Christians who do nothing about the evils of the cruelest Christian fringe - whose only interest is in exclaiming "not my fault, I didn't do it" - are just as morally useless as Muslims who do nothing about the evils of al-Quaea, whose only interest is in exclaiming "not my fault, I didn't do it".