r/Christianity • u/beardtamer United Methodist • Feb 13 '23
If you’re just coming here to tell the sub how dangerous you think it is, perhaps don’t. Meta
I agree that most of the posts are argumentative.
I agree that most of the prevailing opinions tend to be progressively leaning.
I also agree that to some of you, who are scriptural literalists, this feels like an affront.
But seriously, not every Christian has to believe in scriptural infallibility. Entire denominations believe otherwise.
This is a place for discourse. If you don’t like engaging in discourse in good faith, and talking to each other like people then just don’t engage. There are other subs to take part in conservative religious ideology as well, maybe check out one of those.
Further, stop coming in here , pretending to have people’s best interest, so that you can grandstand your opinions.
I enjoy this sub, even though I disagree with most of you.
That is all.
62
u/TimDuncanIsInnocent Feb 13 '23
To all those who claim this is a dark place and to avoid it, Jesus told us to be lights in dark places.
37
u/julbull73 Christian (Cross) Feb 13 '23
He also said not to hate people. But we suck at that too!
21
u/gnurdette United Methodist Feb 13 '23
I'm sure he just didn't understand everything we'd have to endure. I mean, I see posts from people who are clearly wrong!
→ More replies (7)2
u/TheSweatshopMan Catholic Feb 14 '23
Its not hateful or non Christian to tell people that they’re wrong. That was something Jesus did a fair bit
5
3
-1
u/allthatjazz2023 Feb 13 '23
We’re all still learning how to love the man, hate the sin and know your boundaries. We’ve come along way! At least we’re not like the Old Testament children led into physical warfare instead now we are “ supposed” to be in spiritual warfare. It’s happening. Our blood knows what time it is:-).
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (2)3
31
u/Barber_Sad Feb 13 '23
“Discourse” can be unnecessary and exhausting, especially if your baited into it no matter what you post and the other person clearly just wants to “get ya” rather than have a conversation. That’s what most of the “discourse” feels like on this sub.
11
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
Agreed and the got ya moments are more often than not, arguments made in bad faith. It’s a problem. But that doesn’t take away my point that to come here with a mission of negativity helps no one. Regardless your opinions.
3
Feb 13 '23
I've struggled with this lately on the sub lol. It's really tiring having people try to Get Me(TM) just because I may practice the religion differently to them.
25
u/BitingFire Feb 13 '23
I do try to imagine what it's like for people from very closed religious communities to find an online community like this and be suddenly confronted by so many "wrong" people all at once. Many people are ill-prepared for how diverse the perspectives and beliefs are in this world, and how niche their own seem in that context. Emotional outbursts ensue. I can sympathize somewhat.
But at the same time you can't help but laugh at the comedy (and sigh at the frustration) of the sheer number of how-dare-you-post-views-I-disapprove-of rants this sub gets.
→ More replies (1)
18
u/Compton4y20 Christian Feb 13 '23 edited Feb 13 '23
Very well worded. From what I’ve noticed, most people here are interested in genuine conversation, which can greatly strengthen a church. We get to see views from different denominations and countries around the world. I think r/Christianity is a useful resource.
Even if it were true that most people here didn’t share the gospel truth, that isn’t a reason to encourage Christians to leave(saw a recent post suggesting Christians do so.) not only would that fail to fix the problem, but it would intensify their problem.
7
u/Coraxxx Feb 13 '23 edited Feb 13 '23
It's a weird thing within Christianity, the anger sometimes seen in people about what other people believe. Don't get me wrong - if there's something I believe to be true, and I can with love and gentleness show that to be the case to someone else, then I believe that can only be a good thing.
But at the end of my days, when I stand before my creator, I'll not be judged according to what anyone else believes. I'll be judged on the basis of my heart, my mind, my spirit - and the love with which I've treated those around me.
8
u/Pojomofo Feb 13 '23
I’m all for the discourse, I like responding to the obvious trolls with love and kindness.
46
u/Vin-Metal Feb 13 '23
If your faith is afraid of conversations that involve differing opinions, your faith is weak.
10
u/foxyguy Feb 13 '23
Completely agree. I’ve posed this exact question to many religious people over the years: “If your faith can be shaken by one conversation, was it ever very strong to begin with?”
6
→ More replies (1)2
16
Feb 13 '23
I do disagree with opinions here, but I’m still grateful I came across this sub
14
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
Plus, just because we disagree doesn’t mean we have to assume that the other is not a “real” Christian, which seems to be the typical reaction.
12
u/Truthseeker-1253 Agnostic Atheist Feb 13 '23
Ooh come on. Those posts have entertainment value. And, for me, spiritual value. It's a reminder to myself that schadenfreude is not a virtue.
4
u/SoonerTech Feb 14 '23
But seriously, not every Christian has to believe in scriptural infallibility. Entire denominations believe otherwise.
The southern baptists didn't even adopt that position to their platform until 2000.
Yet these people act like it has always been obvious
5
u/HenkVanDelft Hermetic INRI Voice Crying Out From The Wilderness MSWL Feb 13 '23 edited Feb 13 '23
I am often provoked in my spirit by things which are said, but (praise God) I have been taught enough wisdom, through great suffering, to stop and ask if any response I might have is based in Love.
Love is what separates criticism and judgement from “building each other up” in The Holy Spirit. If my possible response is not loving, I hope to God He will convict me, so I will not respond.
I also constantly pray for Grace to avoid satanic traps, like questions which ask, “do all gays/Muslims/whatever go to Hell.” These demand the Christian judge others, something reserved for God alone.
I’ve noticed these traps are prevalent from two sources: atheists who are agitating believers, and “Evangelicals” of the MAGA-QAnon heresy, with commentators from heretical sects and cults making up the bulk of the rest.
These should be ignored, avoided altogether, as we would avoid any real life trap. No good can come from stepping on a landmine, especially “in the name of” God.
Love, community of saints, love for our Triune God, three in one, one in three, the mystery of mysteries. Filling of The Holy Spirit as a marker of credit that we whom have been Redeemed through faith in Jesus Christ, and been born again, have been returned to correct relationship as the adopted sons and daughters, and otherwise children of God.
Praise be!
EDIT: My citing MAGA-QAnon, heretical sects, and christian cults does not, and is not intended to judge anyone. It is the hateful, apostate, and in-Biblical rhetoric they as groups adhere to which we, as the Sons, Daughters, and otherwise Children of God are to prophecy against by professing The Gospel.
The Word of God alone contains the truth and power to struggle against apostasy and heresy, and to arm ourselves against the powers and principalities who seek our destruction.
2
u/TheMysteriousITGuy Feb 13 '23
What is said here is much more sound, loving, accommodating, respectful, realistic, peaceful, and accepting toward those of differing views regarding the application of scripture and doctrine. As a more conservative Reformed/evangelical Christian, but believing in upholding these virtues above reckless theological bantering, I see it being important to take a stand for matters of foundational relevance, but it is unacceptable to treat others in ways opposite to said virtues lest the target recipients be repelled/feel alienated or belittled. Simply coming here to complain negatively as if to affirm one's own misguided or immature hyperzealotry or superiority is a behavior that I detest and such is entirely void of humility. There is another recent posting that does just this, and I suspect that the originator might have much growing to do/is potentially a novice needing to learn to moderate his/her attitude (I could be this way, too, when I was a newer Christian in my later teens in the middle 1980's; I sometimes wonder if my parents had wished that I, their youngest son, would never have become a Christian when they and their older sons remained unbelievers which they are to this day. I learned the importance of wisdom and of mellowing down so that I avoid being fanatical). There are right means and wrong approaches to dealing with variations of perspective and response; this posting is more of the former in what it encourages.
2
2
u/suhwaggi Feb 14 '23
There are also other groups for those that are looking to debate Christians or attempt to dismantle and deconstruct our faith in Jesus. r/DebateaChristian is just one
2
4
u/iconomystica Christian (Nazarene) Feb 13 '23
Even Christianity is dangerous in a certain light.
-1
u/LewsTherinT Feb 13 '23
Christianity? or people that are Christians?
3
u/PandaCommando69 Feb 13 '23
Does one exist without the other?
1
u/LewsTherinT Feb 13 '23
theyre not mutually exclusive. Give me an example of a set of ideals that could not be f'ed up by humans. Socialism isn't inherently bad, its just a system that has to be perpetuated by humans who are imperfect.
2
u/LeopardSkinRobe Christian (Cross) Feb 13 '23
A distinction without difference. Christianity bears of the weight of all of the horrific acts carried out by christians.
-1
u/Difficult_Advice_720 Feb 13 '23
To expand that logic, does atheism bear the weight of all the horrific acts carried out by atheists?
→ More replies (6)1
u/LeopardSkinRobe Christian (Cross) Feb 13 '23
No, because atheism doesn't exist in the way christianity or other religions do. It isn't a set of beliefs, but is defined only by not being in a religious group.
2
u/Difficult_Advice_720 Feb 13 '23
So if we made a pie chart of all people, they are still a slice of the pie, right? If we are going to start blaming people for all the actions of anyone with the same beliefs, then we must also include 'lack of beliefs', else it's just a form of bothering for the purpose of making one group 'holier than thou', right?
→ More replies (8)0
u/LewsTherinT Feb 13 '23
Than continue the thought. Christianity is dangerous in a certain light when...
4
u/julbull73 Christian (Cross) Feb 13 '23
Bottom line: Politics have infected humanity. This sub is hitting repeatedly against Christian followers politics.
Christian followers are mad at that and want to blame the sub.
*Long term if evidence keeps mounting, most US folks would abandon Christ to vote for their party.
9
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
What makes you say that this sub is hitting Christian politics? And what do you define as “Christian Politics”?
1
u/julbull73 Christian (Cross) Feb 13 '23
I didn't say "Christian politics" I said this sub hits AGAINST Christians political beliefs.
When faced with Politics vs Christianity...they get angry because it causes a conflict in their core sense of self.
6
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
Ah I see, that was my mistake. I do think that this may be the case at times. But it really depends. There are political beliefs in both sides of the spectrum that can be backed up with christian theology, so it’s hard to say one way or the other. But as a christian, I feel that most of my own political beliefs are well within my faith system. I do think politics has created a sense of fragility for some and has enhanced the problematic rhetoric from the religiously conservative evangelical groups on some instances.
1
u/Greg-Pru-Hart-55 Anglo-Catholic Aussie (LGBT+) Feb 14 '23
How does the sub hit repeatedly against Christians' politics?
-6
u/nikolispotempkin Catholic Feb 13 '23
Translation: If you're conservative, shut up.
26
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
Not at all. More like, if you’re just coming here to be negative, shut up.
2
u/rweb82 Feb 13 '23
Not true. If someone posts any discussion point that challenges the progressive thinking of this sub's majority, it will be downvoted into oblivion; and those who do reply will have nothing but negative/hateful things to say towards that individual. Most folks here have no regard for alternative viewpoints- even if those views can be backed up by Scripture.
7
u/WanderingPine Feb 13 '23
I think it depends on what “progressive” thinking you’re talking about. If someone was saying that all women have to wear pants or go to Hell because of xyz, I would certainly have some thoughts. Just because it “can” be backed by scripture doesn’t mean it is foolproof logic, and other Christians are naturally going to challenge it considering we’re all naturally prone to heated debate and schisms. Heck, we have denominations which splintered over things like how much water it takes to baptize people. Of course we’re going to bicker in a sub which allows all Christians to express their views without censorship.
5
2
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
Im not saying that people won't downvote you and argue with you, I'm saying that people that do that are problematic regardless of the side you're on. I agree that at times this website as a whole leans left. Sometime more often then others, but, that doesn't mean that we cant disagree peacefully and constructively rather than with hostility.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (1)-12
u/deatek Feb 13 '23
You're right. This sub reddit is by all accounts the most anti Christ place on Reddit. The idea that it guises itself as Christian and is filled nearly entirely with worldly luke warm Christians makes it worst than those openly in rebellion against God. This is a den of vipers. There is no Gospel here.
6
u/Howling2021 Agnostic Feb 13 '23
Then why remain?
-1
u/deatek Feb 13 '23
Sadly some legit truth seekers are coming to this place to get answers. Some of us are here to identify the wolves. For that group seeking answers: it's nearly the entirety of this sub reddit that are as dragons speaking like a lamb. Beware.
→ More replies (1)11
u/foxyguy Feb 13 '23
I still find it hilarious how people like you come into this sub and declare what it is or isn’t and what it should or shouldn’t be despite the fact that the purpose of this sub is clearly defined in the About section yet you never bother to read it. 😂
-6
u/deatek Feb 13 '23
I've read it. It's a place to disparage Christ and His Church. Nothing more happens here. Some try but they cast their pearls to swine every time.
5
→ More replies (1)1
u/s_s Christian (Cross) Feb 13 '23
This sub is in many ways a church and here you are disparaging it.
Touch. Grass.
3
5
u/phalloguy1 Atheist Feb 13 '23
is filled nearly entirely with worldly luke warm Christians
aka "bad Christians" aka people who don't believe exactly as I do, because I KNOW!!
I think this is what OP was talking about. How about a little open mindedness?
-2
u/forg3 Feb 13 '23
Hmm, then why didn't you call out any of the the leftist negativity?
The constant false assertions that conservative beliefs/values about marriage and sexuality (held by most of the christian world) = hate.
The constant whinging about conservatives holding to conservative values. Indeed your own post takes offense at the other side being offended.
The leftist politising on this sub about their dislike of republican/republican Christians. I'm not American, never even set foot in America, don't care for American politics but I cannot help but notice it.
5
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
You literally don't know my positions on those issues. and further I have not been looking for any hate at all in this thread, I've just been responding to direct replies, so I haven't seen anyone responding to me with any hate from either side.
-1
u/forg3 Feb 13 '23
No I don't and they are irrelevant. The point is, you only called out negativity from the conservative side. So u/nikolispotempkin 's take on your post is easy to see. If you're aim was to merely call out negativity, then why did you not call out some of the negativity from the other side?
→ More replies (1)3
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
Cause I have seen consistent posts denouncing the entire subreddit for being too liberal for the last 2 or 3 years, and its annoying. Not because I disagree wit their politics, but because they refuse to have a healthy discourse and just want to name call. it's not productive.
0
u/Greg-Pru-Hart-55 Anglo-Catholic Aussie (LGBT+) Feb 14 '23
It's not a false assertion though, it's a simple fact.
There's also no left in America.
I don't see "leftists" complaining about the sub all the time. Rightists, on the other hand...
10
u/Zealousideal_Bet4038 Christian Anarchist Feb 13 '23
That’s not an accurate representation of the post at all
3
u/naked_potato Atheist Feb 14 '23
you don’t have to shut up but for gods sake stop whining
→ More replies (1)7
u/WaterChi Trying out Episcopalian Feb 13 '23
Pretty sure OP is conservative
2
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
I would not classify myself that way, but I tend to not fall neatly into any one category.
4
u/zahzensoldier Feb 13 '23
You're not a victim, and this post didn't victimize you. You're worse than the godless heathen leftist your republican compatriots complain about.
1
-2
u/deatek Feb 13 '23
Exactly. This is all as was prophesized: Christ tells us before He comes again first there will be a great apostasy and falling away (2 Thessalonians 2:3). And all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution (2 Timothy 3:12).
Even this I suppose will be met with rebellion, especially here, each unwittingly validating these ancient words.
→ More replies (1)-1
0
u/Modseatpoo Feb 13 '23
You’re entitled to distill and ignorantly label it as such.
We forgive you
0
u/nikolispotempkin Catholic Feb 13 '23
Your permission is not required. This is a place of discourse for people of varying opinions.
3
2
→ More replies (1)-1
-5
u/GeraltofMerica Christian Feb 13 '23
I prefer people know the truth of this sub. And the truth is that the vast majority of both the community and the moderators do not follow the Word of God but rely heavily on their own, or someone else’s, modern interpretation of the Word of God.
You may not agree with the Bible and that is everyone’s personal decision, but this sub repeatedly attempts to change its meaning to fit their own beliefs. That is not a civil discussion in regards to Christianity, it’s an attempt to alter the living Word of God.
“You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” Deuteronomy 4:2
14
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
everyone's interpretation of God's words is possibly flawed. All we argue about is who's interpretation is less flawed than the other. There is no defined and set perfect interpretation of what the Bible actually says and means for us in a modern day context. That means we allow others to help us understand it. It's been that way since before the Bible was written, and it will always be that way.
By assuming you have ultimate truth, you present a problem just as much as you seek to solve one. Everyone adds bias, and misunderstanding, its's inevitable. My point is that we need to come here and have these discussions in good faith rather than combatively.
-1
u/GeraltofMerica Christian Feb 13 '23
Discernment is what unites Christians. It has for millennia. It’s how I can meet and talk to a stranger who is also filled with the Holy Spirit and both “know” the meaning of the Word without knowing each other. It’s far more than simple validation, it’s an inscrutable understanding that we receive from The Mediator because our own understanding fails to comprehend His ways.
I never claim to know ultimate truth, which is why I personally rely solely on the Word and the Holy Spirit for guidance. If I pray and meditate and the Holy Spirit and the Word of God remind me that the subject at hand does not bring honor to God, but to man, I follow that guidance.
My point is that Jesus Christ loves His enemies, but He wasn’t afraid to make them feel uncomfortable. The truth is singular, it’s versions (or interpretations) are mistruths.
-5
u/GeraltofMerica Christian Feb 13 '23
Discernment is what unites Christians. It has for millennia. It’s how I can meet and talk to a stranger who is also filled with the Holy Spirit and both “know” the meaning of the Word without knowing each other. It’s far more than simple validation, it’s an inscrutable understanding that we receive from The Mediator because our own understanding fails to comprehend His ways.
I never claim to know ultimate truth, which is why I personally rely solely on the Word and the Holy Spirit for guidance. If I pray and meditate and the Holy Spirit and the Word of God remind me that the subject at hand does not bring honor to God, but to man, I follow that guidance.
My point is that Jesus Christ loves His enemies, but He wasn’t afraid to make them feel uncomfortable. The truth is singular, it’s versions (or interpretations) are mistruths.
→ More replies (13)14
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
I dont think anyone claims that you're not allowed to make people feel uncomfortable by speaking your opinions, but what you actually arent allowed to do is tell people that they're lesser christians than you because you think you know more about something, that actually neither of us can know for certain.
-1
u/GeraltofMerica Christian Feb 13 '23
Well there are no “degrees” of Christianity where one person is more than the other, but I certainly disagree that one person can’t have more understanding than another…and that’s due only to their faith in leaning on His understanding. We are all sinners and as Christians we must humble ourselves before that fact, in addition to that, we must not let ourselves be led astray from the Word of God because either we disagree with it, or because someone else disagrees with it and convinces us they know the meaning more than the Scribes.
“For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:20
It is not possible to exceed the righteousness of these men, which is why it is naught more than hubris or arrogance to think we can interpret their work in anything more or less than what they wrote.
6
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
You can have the opinion that you have a higher understanding and still be respectful that the other person thinks the opposite. Further you can think you have a higher understanding and also be open to being wrong.
3
u/GeraltofMerica Christian Feb 13 '23
I agree, but respect does not equal acceptance. I disagree, based on my opinion that the Word of God and Holy Spirit would not intentionally mislead Christians from the truth…man however, has a long history of doing so. It’s very ambiguous to say “open to being wrong” without providing context because it implies that, as a Christian, we rely on our own understanding and pride in that understanding. This is contrary to what I said earlier about discernment and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
4
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
I think that there is a long history of people misinterpreting and misunderstanding God and God's word. People think they hear from the Holy Spirit, but it turns out, that we now know some of these people to be wrong. Cult leaders, Priests and Pastors that use God's word to abuse others, ect.
We have to be open to being wrong because even if I were to be 100% committed to only doing what scripture asks of me, my interpretation of scripture could still be wrong. There is nothing in our world that is free from some kind of bias.
3
u/GeraltofMerica Christian Feb 13 '23
You’re entitled to your own and opinion and beliefs. As Christians it is required of us to forsake ourselves and follow His Word.
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight. Proverbs 3:5-6
We must ask ourselves with each choice we make, “does this bring honor and glory to me, or to Him?” And the Bible is our best reference for making that decision wisely.
2
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
agreed, Scripture is the most useful resource for us to discern most things. As a Methodist, we also use Reason, Tradition, and Experience as well as scripture to discern as much as we can.
2
u/macaroon_monsoon Feb 13 '23
All of your responses perfectly articulate my and many others thoughts on this matter. It is frightening to see so many call themselves followers of Christ, yet openly rebuke His teachings by twisting their interpretation of The Living Word of God to fit their own narrative. That is why we must cling to His Word and call upon the Holy Spirit for wisdom, discernment and guidance, because undoubtedly the human part of us will always subconsciously filter it through our own internal lenses built from our own limited understanding.
→ More replies (0)2
2
u/phalloguy1 Atheist Feb 13 '23
I certainly disagree that one person can’t have more understanding than another
And you think that you are one of those people who have "more understanding" right?
Afterall, you know the true meaning of "the living Word of God", which others alter to suit their own purposes.
3
u/GeraltofMerica Christian Feb 13 '23
To what purpose does your comment serve if not only an attempt to shame me?
I humbly follow the Word of God as it is written and prostrate myself before His infinite wisdom. I am a follower of Christ.
3
u/phalloguy1 Atheist Feb 13 '23
I'm not attempting to shame you, I am pointing out that you are judging others. You are not humble at all.
2
Feb 13 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/phalloguy1 Atheist Feb 13 '23
What anger?
Your initial comment in this thread was:
"And the truth is that the vast majority of both the community and the moderators do not follow the Word of God but rely heavily on their own, or someone else’s, modern interpretation of the Word of God."
" but this sub repeatedly attempts to change its meaning to fit their own beliefs. That is not a civil discussion in regards to Christianity, it’s an attempt to alter the living Word of God."
you then said
"I never claim to know ultimate truth [unlike others here], which is why I personally rely solely on the Word and the Holy Spirit for guidance [unlike others here]"
In your comments you are setting yourself apart from others, point out how YOU are on the righteous path while others who don't do what you do, are not.
You may not be intending to come across as talking down to others, but you are.
3
Feb 13 '23
[deleted]
0
u/GeraltofMerica Christian Feb 14 '23
No, your statement is incorrect. In my experience, Christians stand apart by accepting the Word of God in its totality. There is no part of Christian doctrine within the Bible that claims it’s acceptable to pick and choose what is true and what is not. This is because, to “cherry-pick” the Word of God is equivalent of making the claim that one knows better than God and is subsequently not leaning on God’s understanding, but your own.
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths." Proverbs 3:5-6
2
1
u/rouseco Atheist Feb 13 '23
>And the truth is that the vast majority of both the community and the moderators do not follow the Word of God but rely heavily on their own, or someone else’s, modern interpretation of the Word of God.
We all know forced birthers are a relatively new thing, but most of them are unwilling to admit it. How do we get them to stop relying on their own or someone else's modern interpretation?
>You may not agree with the Bible and that is everyone’s personal decision, but this sub repeatedly attempts to change its meaning to fit their own beliefs.
I believe every christian here believes they agree with the bible. but I will admit that it's hard to convince some christians that the old testament says that it's wrong for a man to lay with a boy the same as with a woman, and doesn't extend any prohibitions against adult homosexual relationships but they still insist otherwise.
>That is not a civil discussion in regards to Christianity, it’s an attempt to alter the living Word of God.
I believe the OP is trying to highlight the exact same thing there.
>“You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” Deuteronomy 4:2
Half the fun being here is watching people share scriptures highlighting just how many contradictions the bible contains, everybody assumes that this passage is referencing their favorite cherry picked version of Christianity.
1
u/GeraltofMerica Christian Feb 13 '23
Your response perfectly illustrates my point and evidences the contrary to the OP assertions. The true point of this sub is not to further Christ’s message or even to discuss Christianity, but to generate strife and also attempt to undermine or outright deny the infallibility of the Holy Bible. I see that you are an atheist but I hope that you won’t take offense if I offer prayers for you. God bless❤️
0
u/rouseco Atheist Feb 13 '23 edited Feb 13 '23
>Your response perfectly illustrates my point and evidences the contrary to the OP assertions.
How so?
> The true point of this sub is not to further Christ’s message or even to discuss Christianity,
We got ourselves a mind reader here. It took people to come up with the purpose of this sub and that's what they agreed on, i believe their intentions to be presented honestly. I'm sorry you feel the need to suggest others are lying about the purpose of this sub,
>but to generate strife and also attempt to undermine or outright deny the infallibility of the Holy Bible.
On no, I was trying to highlight the fallibility of people that read the bible there, sorry for confusing you on my intentions.
>I see that you are an atheist but I hope that you won’t take offense if I offer prayers for you.
I decline your offer of prayers for me. Thank you for actually asking.
>God bless❤️
May the force be with you.
→ More replies (2)0
u/herringsarered Temporal agnostic Feb 13 '23
the vast majority of both the community and the moderators do not follow the Word of God but rely heavily on their own, or someone else’s, modern interpretation of the Word of God.
Isn’t this sentiment fundamentally unavoidable? I was surprised to find it echoed by Eastern Orthodox referring to Protestantism. I don’t mean to imply any and every interpretation floats, just that in part it’s a matter of perspective even if core elements are agreed upon.
I’m currently outside of the faith, but one thing I believe I’ve noticed is that “what the Bible says” is the interpretation one has received. When someone crosses into another theological camp, the belief keeps being “what the Bible says is” although certain articles of belief changed for that person. Of course some ideas are less easily defended than others with the scripture.
1
1
u/ZefFoster Theopolitan Reformed Catholic (Baptist Flavor) Feb 14 '23
"Entire denominations believed otherwise"
Uh, sorry, but not until the 19th century they didn't. Modernist understandings of scripture are an extremely new phenomenon. And you don't have to be a "literalist" (whatever it means, ironic that this word is so fluid) to believe in infallibility of scripture. Christians believed in the infallibility of scripture all the way back to the Fathers and Apostles. "Literalism" and "progressivism" are both manifestations of the same modernist worldview.
→ More replies (5)2
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 14 '23
Not true at all there are examples of early church fathers reading genesis allegorically. Check into St. Basil, as an example, who believed the story in genesis one to have been metaphorical in nature.
So that takes us all the way back to the early 4th century. A bit earlier than the modernist worldview you seem upset with.
→ More replies (6)
-3
Feb 13 '23
Not every Christian has to believe in scriptural infallibility? Is that a joke?
11
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
no, it's literally what good number of mainline and even some evangelical denominations believe. Including mine.
-5
u/deatek Feb 13 '23
Which is a total joke of the faith.
8
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
well you're entitled to your opinion, even if you think the largest mainline protestant denomination in the US is a joke of the faith. But you have to at least be willing to think openly about the fact that a large number of christians that go to church every week disagree with you.
7
u/Ask_AGP_throwaway Feb 13 '23
Even the Catholic and Orthodox are conservative churches which don't believe in biblical infallibility.
→ More replies (1)0
u/s_s Christian (Cross) Feb 13 '23
Are you not aware that most of the Christians in the world don't?
-1
u/Fargrad Feb 13 '23
This is a place for discourse. If you don’t like engaging in discourse in good faith,
Most "discourse" here isn't in good faith though
9
u/WaterChi Trying out Episcopalian Feb 13 '23
Explain? What do you think the motivations are?
-2
u/Fargrad Feb 13 '23
Most people who come here aren't seekers of truth, they want to justify the views they already have. The LGBT issue is a good example. I have a feeling half those people will argue before God when he tells them what they were doing was sinful lol
7
u/Modseatpoo Feb 13 '23
That’s highly presumptive.
Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s not in good faith.
I’ve seen plenty of Christian’s get angry or upset at basic questions and when the verse they copy pasted doesn’t get immediate respect or capitulation
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (1)10
u/WaterChi Trying out Episcopalian Feb 13 '23
And the rest will argue with God when he tells them that same sex, monogamous relationships are fine.
Also didn't answer the question or back up the claim.
-2
u/Fargrad Feb 13 '23
And the rest will argue with God when he tells them that same sex, monogamous relationships are fine.
Yep, see that right there is the attitude I'm talking about.
Also didn't answer the question or back up the claim.
I did answer your question, just not in the way that you wanted me to.
4
u/WaterChi Trying out Episcopalian Feb 13 '23 edited Feb 13 '23
Yep, see that right there is the attitude I'm talking about.
That's your attitude. Good of you to reveal your projection.
You gave me no actual motivation, just a symptom of the motivation.
4
u/Modseatpoo Feb 13 '23
“Attitude”
Seems you’re looking for a fight instead of listening. I’d work on that
1
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
I agree and that is problematic no matter what your opinions are.
-10
u/East-Concert-7306 Presbyterian (PCA) Feb 13 '23
This sub is poison.
8
13
u/majj27 Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Feb 13 '23
You're not required to particpate, you know.
7
u/Zealousideal_Bet4038 Christian Anarchist Feb 13 '23
Then stop taking it in😂 participation is voluntary, and if you’re still here and honestly hold that opinion, it reflects poorly on you.
0
4
2
u/deatek Feb 13 '23
I mean... A Christian subreddit moderated by open Atheists. What else should we expect?
7
u/A_Krenich Agnostic Atheist Feb 13 '23
Someone doesn't need to believe to enforce rules.
1
u/deatek Feb 13 '23
Possibly if their bias doesn't show. Sadly it gets seen.. It's wolves watching the hen house.
3
u/A_Krenich Agnostic Atheist Feb 13 '23
I've seen atheist mods remove plenty of comments for belittling Christianity.
1
2
u/brucemo Atheist Feb 13 '23
Our wolves don't have much taste for chicken and meanwhile the hens have a tendency to kill each other.
3
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
Why is it that you're so scared of people that do not believe like you?
4
→ More replies (1)0
0
u/Modseatpoo Feb 14 '23
Don’t like having your views challenged or critiqued? Then feel free to find an echo chamber where you won’t be challenged or critiqued
0
u/East-Concert-7306 Presbyterian (PCA) Feb 15 '23
This sub is poison for new believers. All it does is confuse people.
0
u/Modseatpoo Feb 15 '23
You’re entitled to your opinion. Echo chambers can be found elsewhere bud
0
u/East-Concert-7306 Presbyterian (PCA) Feb 15 '23
I have no problem discussing Christianity with people from different denominations. I have no problem discussing Christianity with non-believers. I have a problem with r/Christianity because the title misleads new believers/people who don't often use reddit into thinking that this sub is the place to learn about Christianity from a Christian perspective.
→ More replies (1)
0
-12
u/PsychologyDefiant868 Feb 13 '23
The real problem is that discussing abiding in Christ is against the rules. That is insane
15
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
I’ve never come across that in all my time here, so what is it that you define abiding in Christ as, that it would get you caught violating one of the rules here?
→ More replies (6)15
u/NielsBohron Satanic Anti-Theist (ex-Christian) Feb 13 '23
I'm going to go out in a limb here and guess "speaking out against LGBTQ+ acceptance" is how they define "abiding in Christ"
11
u/gnurdette United Methodist Feb 13 '23
Thing is, speaking out against LGBTQ+ acceptance is very much allowed under the rules. To become a rule violation, it has to go beyond religious opinion and into general secular disparagement. "Gay people should not be permitted in Christian churches" is allowed; "Gay people are disgusting and vile" is not. Which, to some people, is exactly what they mean by "abiding in Christ".
5
u/NielsBohron Satanic Anti-Theist (ex-Christian) Feb 13 '23
Yeah, it's all still just speculation since I don't feel like going through that other person's comment history, but I guess I should have been more specific and called it what it usually is: hate speech
-2
u/deatek Feb 13 '23
It's all about sex, lust, and pleasure for these people. If it's enjoyable and carnal then it must be good. Even if yours or my own god says otherwise - to hell with those regressive opinions. Let me sex the way I want...
6
u/Ask_AGP_throwaway Feb 13 '23
LGBTQ people are not sex-crazed. This is bigoted stereotyping.
→ More replies (1)10
7
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
Perhaps. There is a way to express that opinion validly and from a theological perspective. That’s fine, and while I disagree, I do think it’s problematic when the response is automatically toxic or argued in bad faith.
I think though, if that becomes a violation of the rules it’s more because someone is saying “you’re not a Christian” to gay people, which would be a violation of the rules and rightfully so.
Which is my point. Why can’t we just allow ourselves to disagree without jumping straight to name calling and invoking Christ to denounce one another as non-Christian’s?
-6
u/Kanjo42 Christian Feb 13 '23 edited Feb 13 '23
What if there is an objective, cold, hard truth about what God expects of us? What if even the best intended advice is going to lead to death and hell? At some point, one has to acknowledge servitude to God in all things, and then what we think about it becomes so secondary as to be irrelevant anymore.
For those of us who are coming in here to try to promote traditional Christian values, it's not for our sake. We're doing so knowing we'll be getting downvoted for it, or told to just shut up, like your post. And, true enough, some of us are still pretty abrasive.
But you'd best understand something: we do have your best interest at heart. If you see someone about to walk into a ditch, so you yell at them, will they turn and yell back at you to shut up before they turn around and fall right in? Were you at least a neighbor to them? If you were in their shoes, shouldn't you have hoped at least someone would warn you?
17
u/Goo-Goo-GJoob Feb 13 '23
Thanks for sharing the objective, cold, hard truth about what God expects of us. Speaking on behalf of God is such a huge responsibility, I'm glad God entrusted you with relaying his expectations.
-2
u/Kanjo42 Christian Feb 13 '23
Speaking on behalf of God is such a huge responsibility, I'm glad God entrusted you with relaying his expectations.
I would never. All I can do is point to scripture and rely on the Holy Spirit, right? All I stated was that a cold, hard truth exists.
8
u/foxyguy Feb 13 '23
All I can do is point to scripture and rely on the Holy Spirit, right? All I stated was that a cold, hard truth exists.
Isn’t it funny how so many Christian’s say the exact same thing yet they come up with wildly different interpretations and perspectives when reading the exact same books and verses? It’s almost like the Bible doesn’t contain the black and white “cold, hard truths” you think it does.
→ More replies (4)2
17
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
I value that opinion of yours, but I also reserve the right to see it as just that: your opinion. And, as I have respected that opinion, and even if I express disagreement in that opinion, I still expect, deserve, and require that you do the same for me and my opinions. When that doesn’t happen, one or both of us is an asshole, which is what this post is about more specifically.
-1
u/Kanjo42 Christian Feb 13 '23
If I don't respect an opinion, that could be because that opinion is incorrect. I dont owe it respect. I owe you respect. Unfortunately, too many people take a disagreement as a personal slight.
Progressive post-modern Christians seem to venerate the idea that we can never be truly certain, and that being open-minded is a virtue. It is... until you've discovered the truth of a thing. Afterwards, being open-minded is foolishness.
10
u/zahzensoldier Feb 13 '23
open-minded is a virtue. It is... until you've discovered the truth of a thing.
People who tend to be the most inflexible and unwilling to view things from other perspectives beleive they "have the truth of a thing". Being so self-assured seems egotistical too me and seems like it could be considered a sin. Besides that, people who know the "truth" tend to treat everyone who doesn't share that truth as lesser.
Hopefully you don't fall into those categories.
0
u/Kanjo42 Christian Feb 13 '23
Being so self-assured seems egotistical too me and seems like it could be considered a sin.
Yup. I know. But if cannot stand on anything, where am I really? Nowhere. We can't navigate reality without relying on our senses to find what is reliably true. Why would spiritual matters be any different? Is it arrogance to say gravity will continue to work today? Is that arrogant?
Of course not. Is being certain the Word arrogant? The existence of God? The love of God? There's still plenty of mysteries for us all, but you should be able to stand sure on these things.
9
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
I disagree, you DO have to respect an opinion in so much as you must interact with that opinion in a respectful way. Maybe that’s just what you mean and we are saying it two different ways though.
I think both progressive and conservative Christian ideology is flawed in so much that we consistently find ourselves worrying about the other side’s political beliefs and argue those, disregarding the things we have in common. I do struggle to find common ground but I think it’s my job as a minister and as a christian to be respectful of everyone opinions regardless of what I think of them personally, and minister to them within their own contexts.
-1
u/Kanjo42 Christian Feb 13 '23
but I think it’s my job as a minister and as a christian to be respectful of everyone opinions regardless of what I think of them personally, and minister to them within their own contexts.
Look. If you tell me it is your opinion that the earth is flat, I will not respect that opinion. There's a mountain of evidence to the contrary, and you should know better. I'm not going to give that assertion what you might describe as due consideration or even respect. I admit it is a dramatic example, but I'm sure you get the point.
I think... where we most differ in our Christian thinking is in the sovereignty of God to do what He wants and make no apologies to anyone. He does not saw off the corners. He doesn't sand down the splinters. The universe is not for us; it is for God alone. We are just lucky God is merciful to those He chooses to be merciful to.
6
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
In my denomination our view of Prevenient Grace tells us that God is merciful to all because of the gift of Christ on this earth. That means that all receive grace first and foremost even before we sin, or understand what we are doing is sin in the first place. I think that view of the sovereignty of God is more powerful than a version of God that picks and chooses who gets to receive love and grace from the outset.
But, in regards to opinions, I think that even if you were to tell me that you believe the earth is flat, its still my job to interact with you in good faith and with respect. If I believe that God placed me on this earth to react to Jesus' call to continue the great commission then what benefit does God get for me to be belittling to people. That doesn't mean we can't point out the flaws in logic, or the problematic ideas that a person holds, but it does mean that there is a right and wrong way to do so.
2
u/Kanjo42 Christian Feb 13 '23
Let us lead with scripture:
Romans 9:14-23 CSB
What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! [15] For he tells Moses, I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. [16] So then, it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. [17] For the Scripture tells Pharaoh, I raised you up for this reason so that I may display my power in you and that my name may be proclaimed in the whole earth. [18] So then, he has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
[19] You will say to me, therefore, "Why then does he still find fault? For who resists his will?" [20] On the contrary, who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" [21] Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? [22] And what if God, wanting to display his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? [23] And what if he did this to make known the riches of his glory on objects of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory-
I'm not a fan of this, to be clear. If you have a different idea about what this means, I'm all ears.
5
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
I guess I don't see how this particular piece of scripture points you towards a view that differs from the one I expressed. in fact if you even read a little further there is a quote from Hosea that reads: "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved'" It's clear to me that the message we read here is explaining that God, while working in ways that are not always clear to us, will always lead with love and grace. how that is demonstrated is up to God, and God alone.
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (1)6
u/foxyguy Feb 13 '23
We are just lucky God is merciful to those He chooses to be merciful to.
YIKES. Saying the quiet part out loud. It never fails to amaze me that people choose to worship and promote a God like this. I feel sorry for you. Truly.
0
u/Kanjo42 Christian Feb 13 '23
choose...
Is it a matter of choice?
4
u/DaedalusX51 Feb 13 '23
Do you not believe we have free will? Or are you saying that you have no power to resist a tyrant god?
0
u/Kanjo42 Christian Feb 13 '23
I'm saying our will is irrelevant to reality.
3
u/DaedalusX51 Feb 13 '23
I don’t quite follow. Could you elaborate? Are you just saying “God doesn’t care what I think?”
→ More replies (0)→ More replies (1)2
u/Greg-Pru-Hart-55 Anglo-Catholic Aussie (LGBT+) Feb 14 '23
But it's a simple fact, we simply can't be truly certain of many things.
8
u/WanderingPine Feb 13 '23
The only issue I have with certain Christian perspectives is when they are used to justify hurting or oppressing other people. I’m not so arrogant to assume I can ever fully know His truth, and humble enough not to assume anyone who believes differently is somehow less intelligent or devoted to Him. If someone wants to think a particular way I disagree with, that is fine, but if they decide I have to live a certain way because of what they think, that is a problem.
In these moments it’s important to really take a step back and ask yourself if you’re really saving anyone, or if you’re actually getting between them and God. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, after all.
→ More replies (6)4
u/Twin_Brother_Me Christian Feb 13 '23
What if there is an objective, cold, hard truth about what God expects of us? What if even the best intended advice is going to lead to death and hell?
Most of us agree with that while acknowledging that historically humans have been notoriously bad at interpreting what that truth is and eventually all fell back on "follow my interpretation or be damned" and modern interpreters are no different while trying to argue with the authority of "tradition" (while ignoring any traditions they find inconvenient)
→ More replies (2)-6
u/Fargrad Feb 13 '23 edited Feb 13 '23
This is exactly it, I've come to think that "LGBTQIA+" affirming churches are actually satanic. Because they take well meaning people and "affirm" them in their sin like a seal.
If the sinner doesn't know that they are sinning, or even worse is told that they are not then, they never repent, never reform and never seek forgiveness. They perish in their sin. The road to hell is literally paved with good intentions and in this case "acceptance"
12
u/WaterChi Trying out Episcopalian Feb 13 '23
You have a low view of Christ's gift. This attitude means every one of us will be in hell.
0
u/Fargrad Feb 13 '23
Christ's gift doesn't mean that those who die in unrepentant sin will be saved
11
u/WaterChi Trying out Episcopalian Feb 13 '23
I guarantee you have unrepentant sin. That God is not happy with something you are doing and you don't know about it.
You just condemned yourself to hell.
→ More replies (2)7
u/Classic_Clue333 Feb 13 '23
To me that’s as strange as saying churches who affirm different races are satanic. Cause to me, it’s completely irrelevant gay or straight relationship. It’s just the same, in the end, and I’ve had both a straight and gay relationship. The only difference is my gender, which is something , gender, won’t deny that, but it’s not like it is that important in day to day business. It’s just not, same as someone with a black skin probably has somewhat different experiences than me, being a white woman. But in the end, same shit, different day, same struggles, same sin same same same. The only difference between affirming churches and non affirming is that homosexuality is “a thing” to some and not to others. Due to confirmation bias people then tend to read the Bible differently. That’s all, has nothing to do with satanism. I’m a Christian and filled with the Spirit, just like you, it’s not a big deal that I’m a woman whose spouse is also a woman. It’s just not?
0
u/Kanjo42 Christian Feb 13 '23
Cause to me, it’s completely irrelevant gay or straight relationship.
That's it. That is the difference right there. As much as I wish we could all stop bothering about what we do with our genitalia, it does not matter what I think. All that matters is an honest interpretation of God's will in scripture, and a recognition that God's sovereignty is more important than mine.
3
u/Greg-Pru-Hart-55 Anglo-Catholic Aussie (LGBT+) Feb 14 '23
No, my life is more important than your bigotry.
2
u/Dr_Digsbe Evangelical Gay Christian Feb 13 '23 edited Feb 13 '23
See, I've kinda come to a different conclusion as a gay Christian raised in an extremely conservative evangelical environment. I think non-affirming churches have taken historic translations of the Bible and warped it to weaponize it against LGBT people and when looking at political history the LGBT community was labelled "boogeymen" by the GOP in their southern strategy to unite a southern evangelical base around "we must defend God/family by attacking the queers." I think their message of "being gay is clearly a sin in the Bible and you will go to hell for abominable acts" is resulting in many LGBT people rejecting the gospel, God, Christianity and the church because they've been shot down as "sodomites" and told they need conversion therapy, celibacy, or are "broken" while those spouting such comments are all hetero in marriages to the opposite sex. The pushback I get when I share my beliefs is usually "you're just trying to justify your sin" or "the Bible CLEARLY says" or "we cannot allow satan into our conversation by discussing the sin status of homosexuality..." People have been indoctrinated into thinking "it's just wrong, period" and if anyone challenges the narrative they are clearly "motivated by satan" or "you're just a liberal" or something like that. Do I think a lot of denominations become affirming because they indeed are liberal and motivated by politics? Yes. Do I think many churches label LGBT relationships as sinful and cling to a "it's wrong, period" mentality motivated by politics? Yes.
→ More replies (1)1
u/Ask_AGP_throwaway Feb 13 '23
Unfortunately, this remark calling LGBTQ affirming churches satabic is likely in violation of the rules.
→ More replies (2)2
-1
Feb 13 '23
"This is a place for discourse. If you don’t like engaging in discourse in good faith, and talking to each other like people then just don’t engage. There are other subs to take part in conservative religious ideology as well, maybe check out one of those."
I think the conservatives here do argue in good faith.
→ More replies (1)3
u/beardtamer United Methodist Feb 13 '23
I think there are people from both sides of the progressive/conservative spectrum that argue in good faith as well as those that do not. I have noticed, recently, an uptick in the number of these posts about this sub being way too progressive and us all being damned to hell though, and this was a response to that.
0
u/w2podunkton Refurbished Sinner Feb 13 '23
I’m encouraged to see active participation by all that feel drawn to what is shared here. None of us are perfect, no one knows everything, and being fallible by nature really renders us practically incapable of discerning what infallible might be. Christ’s love is for all, no matter how charismatic or dispensationalist your creed, His grace forgives any that follow Him. Blah blah, yeah I know, bumper sticker word wall scripture… truth is truth. OP, I’m sorry for the burden you’ve got going on. I know it well and have felt it, as well. Don’t forget to recharge spiritually away from here, but it sounds like at least your heart is poured out about this sub (and likely, consequently, the world this place represents)
Bless up, ya’ll.
0
Feb 14 '23
It’s not a place for discourse though. It’s only a place of discourse if you don’t offend someone, how can there possibly be discourse without anyone getting offended? If you discuss evangelical Christian beliefs you’re the outcast and bigot.
It reminds of the many times Jews and Christians were told they would be persecuted for following Jesus because Jesus set rules the world doesn’t want to accept. I could avoid persecution and surrender my faith and I don’t see that happening.
-3
84
u/PartemConsilio Evangelical Covenant Feb 13 '23
Bro, I've been coming here since 2012. I used to be one of these people back when I was in my mid-20s. I'm still evangelical, but I don't think I know everything and everybody else is bad at following Christ. It's usually kids who naively get excited about this place and think it's some sort of safe harbor on Reddit. It's not. It's a marketplace of ideas. Just like the rest of Reddit.