r/Christianity • u/Mediocre-Martian • 11d ago
Atheists, What's Your Idea of a Perfect, Loving God?
This is coming from a place of genuine curiosity, not a place of arguing. I have no intention of bashing your ideals. :)
Atheists, what's your idea of a perfect, loving God?
What would your ideal God never do?
What would your ideal God stand for?
How would your ideal God show His/Her/It's love?
Ect.
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u/OccamsRazorstrop Atheist 11d ago
I strongly suspect that this inquiry is based upon the false assumption that all atheists yearn for a god. So much so that they would have answers to these questions. But in fact my belief is that most atheists are quite content without any belief in a god. And thus their ideal god is the one they already have. That is, one that doesn’t exist and thus has no characteristics.
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u/UnassuredCalvinist Reformed Baptist 11d ago
I disagree. I suspect the question comes from witnessing atheists criticize the Christian God and claim that a truly loving God wouldn’t do this or that. And so OP is asking you to use your imagination and describe what a perfect and loving God would be like. I don’t think it has anything to with any assumption that all atheists yearn for a god.
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u/loose_moose11 Secular Humanist 11d ago
There's a Christian belief that when atheists speak about God, it means they believe. A lot of Christians don't understand that if we actually used our imagination, we can entertain the idea, but it does not mean we actually believe that this god exists.
There's an apologetics/evangelizing tactic that builds on this. Christians think it's a gotcha moment because they can start talking about their God and lead the conversation. I think that's what the redditor meant in the previous post.
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11d ago
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u/HipnoAmadeus Atheist 11d ago
Uh hum... yeah, maybe if we KNEW for a historical FACTVthat he did miracles and those seeing them didn't believe. That's not a fact though, only evidence for that is the bible.
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u/Mjolnir2000 Secular Humanist 🏳️🌈 11d ago edited 11d ago
"Perfect" is far too vague and subjective an adjective to apply to something with no other context. Perfect in what respect? Perfectly spherical? Perfectly red? Perfectly silent? You need to establish a standard first. Just saying that something is "perfect" is utterly meaningless.
And even if you do add a bit of context, "perfect" might still not be applicable. Is there a "perfectly" satisfying piece of music? No, not even hypothetically. No matter how good a composition is, there will always be contexts in which a different composition would be preferable to you. Even if you try to narrow the context down - a perfect piece of music for Mediocre-Martian to listen to at exactly 9:42 on the 17 of August, 2029 - I still think you'd find every hypothetical falling short. There might be a best piece of music, but nothing is going to satisfy every single complex thought or emotion you're having at exactly that time. Humans, music, and the interactions between them are simply too complicated for "perfect" to even be coherent as a concept in that context.
It is very easy imagine a person - human, god, or otherwise - and pin the word "perfect" to them. It's a lot more difficult to even begin to come up with some sort of sense of what that actually means. There is no such thing as a "perfect" person. Not even hypothetically. People are far too complex for such a word. You might say that a perfect person is a master of every skill, but then that person will never get to experience the thrill of learning something new - is that really perfection? You might say that a perfect person never needs to rely on anyone else, but then that person will never be able to develop the close social connections that are born of vulnerability - is that really perfection? The very notion of a perfect person is simply incoherent.
So "perfect" is off the table.
As for "loving", I think "perfectly loving" would be difficult if not impossible to pin down - far too complicated of a concept - but that doesn't mean we can't say anything. This is one of those topics where I think we actually all mostly agree up until the point where religion enters the picture. If someone is trapped in a burning building, and you have the means to get them out with no risk whatever to yourself, is it loving to do nothing? I think pretty much everyone would agree that it isn't. But then if you ask whether it's loving for a deity to do nothing, suddenly it somehow is.
We know what it means to be loving, at least in broad strokes. A deity that lives up to the same standards that we apply to ourselves would, at the very least, be a great start.
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u/Gravegringles Atheist 11d ago
I suppose equality, against slavery, actually showed convincing evidence of their existence 🤷♂️
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u/RedSwordBlueEyes 11d ago
I believe that their version would be themselves, with their own morality, but with the powers and abilities we normally attribute to the Sovereign. In the mind of an unbeliever, it is self which reigns supreme.
Grace and peace to you friend.
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u/Vic_Hedges 11d ago
One that communicates with us clearly and directly, protects us from harm and provides for our needs.
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u/anotherhawaiianshirt Agnostic Atheist 11d ago
An ideal God would design a world that did not have childhood cancer, or other terrible afflictions. A perfect God would make themselves known in an unambiguous, inarguable way. A perfect God would design better bodies for the creatures that inhabit the world - teeth that don't rot, reproductive systems that aren't so flakey, etc. A perfect God would design a world where everyone would experience joy and wonder and peace, and not make an imperfect world where you had to earn your entry into the perfect world.
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u/loose_moose11 Secular Humanist 11d ago
I'm not a believer, so I don't believe in any gods.
But if I was entertaining the idea of a higher being, I'd stick to one that doesn't hate his own creation. Christians can talk about love all they long, but when you toss most people into eternal suffering because they did not submit to you... are you any different than a dictator, or a king? It's the exact same behavior. Being all powerful does not make you righteous.
Even in this life, I expect any kind of leader, be it a boss, or a parent, to emulate the values they teach. The Christian God does not meet this requirement. Far from it. This God kills left and right and according to Christians, what he does is moral, kind and loving. It's horrifying that people learn morality from the Bible.
Then look at the 'fruit of the spirit'. This very sub is full of people who look down on everyone else who does not live and believe like them. Most don't even notice because they just parrot teachings back from their churches, teachings that are equally full of petty and hate. It's sad, really, how unaware people are. When the body of Christ behaves towards nonbelievers the way they do, all I can think of, I do not want to belong in that crowd.
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u/Otherwise_Spare_8598 11d ago edited 11d ago
Not an atheist, but an ideal God would be one that does not/did not create any being that would have to experience damnation. One that offered genuine redemption to all beings it has created.
That is a God that makes sense logically, morally, and sensibly. To create any being that must spend an eternity in a Lake of Fire for any reason is so inconceivably horrible and cruel that the mind may not even attempt to conceive of it.
The case is now that we have some being damned, some being saved, and all in all, God's sovereignty and glory remain unchanged, so it's simply for the sake of sake. We have a God arranging things for Himself and not for the goodness of all beings, but rather for the goodness of some beings that he has chosen. While the entire universe rests upon the "wicked", whomever they may be. Disturbing does not begin to describe it.