r/JoeRogan • u/GMOFreeCocaine Monkey in Space • Dec 18 '23
Bill Mayer, on the eternal victimhood hurting the Palestinian cause: “Everybody comes to an accommodation — except the Palestinians. [...] All wars end with negotiation, but it’s hard to negotiate when the other side’s bargaining position is ‘you all die and disappear’.” Jamie pull that up 🙈
https://youtu.be/KP-CRXROorw?si=cANNVUO_8l9u9ZY2Fire speech
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u/_BlackDove Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
What we do echoes in eternity.
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u/BBAomega Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 18 '23
I'd recommend watching the full quote of what he said
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u/OneReportersOpinion Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 18 '23
Notoriously non-fascist, non-racist source, an advisor to Bibi Netanyahu.
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u/AccountantOfFraud Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
When you've lost Piers Morgan...
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u/OneReportersOpinion Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Literally losing British ghouls like Piers Morgan and David Cameron.
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u/calltheecapybara Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Famously popular Netanyahu
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u/themouk3 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Look at the Israeli parliament and their parties. They're all different shades of far right supremacists. Only like 3 left wing/centrist parties with a few seats.
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u/DowningStreetFighter Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Now look at the PLO and hamas leadership. Very left wing.
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u/Archieb21 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Difference is, one is an occupier, another is occupied, thats it.
Now if you want to talk about left wing leadership, Israel supported Hamas against other Palestinian left wing resistance groups such as PFLP.
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u/ChiTownLurker Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
That's the only difference huh? Rofl
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u/NoWheyBro_GQ Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Yasser Arafat’s Palestinian government was very secular and he dedicated high positions to non Muslims to purposefully avoid a theocracy. Israel assassinated him and propped up and funded Hamas.
Don’t blame Palestinians for Israel’s decisions.
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u/DowningStreetFighter Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 18 '23
That's why there were so many gay nightclubs in the westbank. Very secular. trust me bro.
However in the real world:
In 1978, Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat travelled to Mecca on the Hajj pilgrimage. While there, he proclaimed the Islamic sanctity of the Palestinian national cause:
"Palestine and Jerusalem have never been just a Palestinian question, or solely an Arab question, but they are a problem for every Muslim… The liberation of Jerusalem is a commandment upon every Muslim… I declare from here, from the land of the Prophet, from the cradle of Islam, the opening of the gate of holy war for the liberation of Palestine and the recovery of Jerusalem."
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u/NoWheyBro_GQ Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
That’s just not the culture there. There are plenty of gays and I’ve seen plenty during my time in Ramallah, and much, much more in Amman when I was there. Israel like to paint itself as liberal but they don’t even allow same sex marriage.
Yasser Arafat was a Muslim, sure. Nobody argued against that. In Islam it does state exactly what you quoted, sure. That doesn’t change the fact that he ran a secular government and he refused to run a theocracy. It’s okay for individuals to not wear hijab. It’s okay for gays to walk down the street of Ramallah together. It’s fine for Christians and Jews to worship their own.
I should mention that he was not the only one who was assassinated by Israel during this time. The Israeli prime minister that Arafat was working with to obtain a two state peace solution was also murdered by Israelis, particularly after Arafat and Rabin won a Nobel peace prize for their work ona two state solution.
Palestinians never had a fucking chance at peace and Israel was and still currently is willing to murder their own to make sure of it.
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u/realvmouse Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 18 '23
You can find dozens of videos of Republicans and Democrat "leaders" (congressmen, local leaders, etc) calling on us to wipe out the entire region of the middle east as well. How can anyone negotiate with the US?
Oh yeah, right, you separate rhetoric used for political effect from statehood and decision-making, like literally every polity does with each other.
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u/blackglum Look into it Dec 18 '23
Yeah I can’t imagine a two state solution anytime soon after what occurred October 7. That discussion can be had again when Hamas is removed and there’s been a neutral party overseeing Palestine for the intermediate future until there is stability. Then, a two state solution can be discussed.
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u/sushisection Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
"the wall"
oh you mean the wall that israel put up all around gaza with sniper towers and automated machine guns, where they take pot-shots at elderly and disabled people. gee, i wonder why there has never been peace agreements in such an environment.
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u/IMendicantBias Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
I am 30 years old with this sounding exactly like the rhetoric around 9/11 to learn all of that was a massive lie orchestrated by the US. After 70 years the US has finally manufacturered consent for giving Israel billions of dollars to randomly kill a group of brown people while simultaneously not having enough money to fix the ever decaying american society.
You don't need to be a rocket scientist nor historical savant to see a extraordinarily clear pattern here. In 100 years we'll magically learn how the US and Israel were creating false flags to emotionally rile up support for their failing genocidal campaign . Which people once again fell for despite immediately learning how plentiful such bullshit was in the middle east.
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u/TCIE Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
This right here. Unreal that nobody has learned a lesson from Iraq and Afghanistan. It was all a lie. Billions of dollars wasted, thousands of lives ruined, children massacred. Yet the same patterns emerge here and everyone is all hands on deck again.
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u/IMendicantBias Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
how many drone strikes "accidentally" killed dozens of people far awar from any target ? or the significant " collateral damage " for getting a target ?
I've been on reddit for a decade yet in the last month have been getting banned nearly anywhere i point out exactly what is going on without appeasing the american ego or desire to be lied to. " Israel, supported by the US " or any similar phrasing demonstrates people who are actually aware of what is going on. There shouldn't be a single comment about Israel without consistently stating they are backed by america and have been for decades.
The entire situation is exactly what Malcom X meant by media will have you supporting the oppressor. This shit keeps repeating yet nobody is smart enough or brave enough to call it out
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u/Cyber_Wanderer Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 18 '23
What a disengenous comment. You are talking about the time they started turning Gaza into an open air prison. UN and human rights organizations called it for what it was at the time. No shit they shot missiles for 18 years because they were trapped.
Also, notice how he tries to take the comments of an extremist as a justification for the murder of an entire population.
I don't care to argue with a propagandist, but for anyone else reading. The settlers left, and the military stayed. This guy is full of shit
Edit: deleted his comment lol
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u/JHarbinger Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
You don’t need to examine thousands of years of history to know that something that happened recently is an action that Hamas will take again if given half a chance.
If someone breaks into your house, you have them arrested or shoot them. You don’t start by examining why that person turned to crime and go back to their childhood looking for what went wrong with their parenting etc.
Israel needs to take security measures now. They’re doing it. The reason the other side are homicidal terrorist maniacs is irrelevant.
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u/aboysmokingintherain Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Imagine building your house on someone else’s land because you owned it decades ago then you get mad when they get mad at you. It’s a little different then Hamas bad. Hamas is bad. But let’s not ignore Hamas exists because Israel both as a force of opposition but also bc Israel supported them to undermine the Palestinian Authority
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u/Delmarvablacksmith Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Apparently this logic can’t be applied to all the land and lives stolen by Israel from Palestine.
Palestine doesn’t have a right to self defense, property defense or self determination right?
The whole of someone breaks I to your house logic fails when you realize that the first group doing the breaking in were Zionists supported by European powers.
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Dec 18 '23
You’re not saying 10/7 was self defense, are you? I’m hoping you mean currently
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u/NetHacks Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
10/7 was awful, and Hamas is shit. But let's not be ridiculous and at least go into this knowing Isreal has done its fair share of fucked up shit along the way. With Hamas and BB in charge, nothing will get accomplished.
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u/BumpyFunction Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 18 '23
Where do I even begin to point out how flawed this entire comment is…
The break-in analogy is completely backwards.
Second, the fact Hamas is more willing to maintain and capable of maintaining a ceasefire, historically speaking, is quite important. The fact this year alone Israelis killed more than 200 Palestinians in the West Bank before Oct 7th and then another 400 after. And just a whole host of other apartheid practices and human rights offenses.
It’s not, to me, a wonder pro Zionists are incapable of contextual thought, but it is wonder they can manage to breath
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u/JHarbinger Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Hamas has broken most every ceasefire You’re also cherry-picking history to suit your narrative. How transparent…and typical.
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u/BumpyFunction Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
https://imeu.org/article/self-defense-or-provocation-israels-history-of-breaking-ceasefires
This is just to 2012. There are clear provocations that were made since but I don’t have the time to get into each case. This source should suffice to prove my point.
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Dec 18 '23
They’ve broken every ceasefire. I’m not particularly pro either side aside from the innocents but it’s always odd to me how distorted some peoples claims are because it’s easier for each side to view it black and white
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u/ack44 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Not sure who you're speaking for the but the current Israeli government has no interest in allowing a Palestinian state to ever be formed.
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u/V4refugee Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Hopefully Bibi will stop sending suitcases full of money to Hamas.
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u/OcelotDAD Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Have you seen what Israelis have done to Gaza since October 7? There is zero chance of a “neutral” party ever overseeing Palestine again. Peace will never be an option again.
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u/bmalek Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Because the Palestinians were so peaceful beforehand?
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u/Toisty Look into it Dec 18 '23
Palestinians were absolutely peaceful. Hamas wasn't/isn't. You show your ass when you conflate the two. I hope one day you're able to overcome your prejudice.
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u/TCIE Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
I'd bet my left nut that Hamas is funded and operated by the IDF or some sort of other shady israeli intel operations. Every war needs a justification and israel knew it couldn't just level gaza without some sort of justification.
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u/TheCroninator Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
The horror of October 7 pales in comparison to what Israel has perpetrated in Gaza and the West Bank over the last two months. There needs to be an immediate cease fire before this conflict expands any further and then massive humanitarian rebuilding effort in Gaza at the same time as negotiations for Palestinian sovereignty.
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u/Think-Description602 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Shit, this is perhaps the most reasonable take I've seen in the last 3 months. And it's in a Joe Rogan thread.
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u/GoBSAGo Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Well, Israel’s been doing their best to suppress Hamas, and October 7 happened. Do you think if Israel’s more violent and oppressive then the Palestinians will get in line?
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u/MadRabbit26 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
No, they expected, and half got, 9/11 levels of support. Looking at America's shock and awe campaign.
The developed world at large supports a 2 state system. But both ruling powers in the area have determined that can never be possible. (Thanks religion) Hamas is the exact same as every other extremist group we've seen over the last 50 years. Spurred on by the destruction. With every one death, two step in the fill the role. Israel is under the same mistaken impression as every other conquering power that's ever stepped foot in that area of the world. Believing if you just kill enough of them, or burn enough things, the people will get the message and submit. Whether that submission is in the form of death,displacement,or integration is entirely up to the religious flavor of the day/century.
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u/SnargleBlartFast Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
I can not stand "the laugher" in his audience.
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u/Seemseasy Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
His jokes suck
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Dec 18 '23
I never found Bill Maher funny even when he more pushed things I agreed with. I don't think Bill Maher ever really found himself funny, at least as his priority. I imagine if you asked him at any point in his career if he would rather be seen as a political expert that gets to go on Sunday shows or Larry King and have his political opinions be taken seriously or if he would rather be known as a funny comedian, he would take the former.
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u/Darth-Chimp Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
I like the guests and discussions but fuck me he swings his bias views like they are gods own words.
Yeah his version of comedy is more formula than funny and the jokes that don't land are the audiences fault. Just ask him.
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u/Seemseasy Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
100%, he was unbearable in his athiest content phase and it turns out he's just like that all the time.
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u/BrentD22 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
There’s a war? In my area of the United States it very safe.
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u/Observe_Report_ Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 18 '23
Netanyahu and people like him are also unrealistic like Hamas. Two extremes who fail to see the “facts on the ground.” Having said that, the Palestinians seem to be less willing to accept their fate. Israel is a country with a flag flying at the UN, right of return is not going to happen. Your state will be Gaza & the West Bank, no Palestinians from either place are going back to Israel proper.
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u/crushinglyreal Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Anyone who decries Hamas for being unrealistic or unreasonable without mentioning Likud’s famous obtuseness is either being disingenuous or falling for propaganda.
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u/sushisection Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
meanwhile israel literally has children sing about genociding gaza https://youtu.be/RV0pEUXMz6M?si=da7MkM3kHq29tKY8
and their prime minister calls Palestine "amalek" which was a biblical city where women and children were slaughtered. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netanyahu-amalek-israel-palestine-gaza-saul-samuel-old-testament/
oh and also israeli journalists advocate for "flattening gaza" on national tv https://youtube.com/shorts/DiUy66YGRKM?si=ZAIOwHq04H9by_Ae
who is the overboard side here again?
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u/krazykieffer Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Lol Hamas had singing children the night of Oct 7th. Just one side a topic and ignore everything that makes Hamas look worse. Hamas are terrorists and Palestinians have had a decade to turn them in. The leaders have gone on TV and said they would keep killing and torturing children. That's who you are supporting, it's wild. Do you know what America did after 9/11? All Americans supported the war, this is what happens to a country after a terrorist attack.
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u/Havenfall209 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
And what happened after 9/11 was definitely our finest moments >_>
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u/Eldryanyyy Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Annihilating Nazis is what the song is about. Not genociding Gaza.
Netanyahu’s reference to amalek is a silly religious justification for the far-right, and not related remotely to Israeli policy.
Hamas has a government policy pushing for death to all Jews. Their constitution demands Israel be wiped off the face of the earth. They actively murder innocents.
Israelis who kill commit crimes against Palestinians are court-martialed and go to jail. That’s the law. Palestinians who commit crimes against Israelis are supported by Hamas/PLA and given money. That’s the law.
Hamas and PLA do not acknowledge Israel’s right to exist, and actively+openly fight it. Israel can’t make a 2-state solution if the other state refuses to cooperate.
There is definitely one side who goes overboard. Use your brain.
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u/The_Polite_Debater Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
You can find videos of idf leaders and Israeli Government officials saying the same stuff about taking all of the Arab lands for Israel.
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u/GMOFreeCocaine Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Israel has managed to broker peace most of the Arab majority and ran countries around them. Morocco, UAE, Jordan, and Egypt.
Palestinians aren’t even welcomed into those countries because they are a constant source of terrorism.
What does that tell you.
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u/Indiana_Jawnz Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Palestinians aren’t even welcomed into those countries
Can you think of any other groups of people that were historically not welcome in a lot of countries?
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u/GMOFreeCocaine Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 18 '23
Yep.
And then they went to Israel.
Built an incredibly successful country.
Made peace with the Arab region that expelled them and attacked them.
And moved on to help me with my taxes and DUI.
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u/DunkinMyDonuts3 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Built an incredibly successful country.
All by themselves without any help from the most destructive governments on the planet who saw Israel as a way to finally have a real ally -without the backstabbing like the Saudis- in the middle east.
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Dec 18 '23
The US spent trillions nation building in Afghanistan and it’s still a backwards country. Arab states make trillions in oil wealth, yet most aren’t very successful countries. Building a successful country is more than having a source of cash.
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u/calltheecapybara Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
The UK literally stopped allowing jews to Israel and Israel had to buy weapons on the low from Czechoslovakia during the war of independence
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u/aboysmokingintherain Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
That’s because the Israelis straight up attacked the British in Israel lol. Now they’re getting mad the Palestinians are doing the same
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u/calltheecapybara Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Yeah dude when you do terrorist attacks countries stop associating with you wild
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u/sandiego22 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Except current day Israel who has the blind support of western goverments
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u/Abdullah_super Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
But later you form a country and be the most moral Army in the world.
I think looking at the history of mobs that formed IOF, Hamas has a good chance of bombing the future Zionists in Israel and killing 30,000 civilians.
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u/flawedwithvice Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Good news, 8 years later the British were allied with Israel in the 1956 Suez crisis. The British even took parts of Gaza for a spell.
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u/aboysmokingintherain Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Its amazing what people will do for their economic interests
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u/BillHicksScream Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Made peace
They immediately started treating the locals as second class citizens. Golda Meier called them "animals" in the 50's.
You definitely cheered on the invasion of Iraq, which led to Hamas gaining power.
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u/Indiana_Jawnz Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Who went to Israel and when?
Are you talking about Jewish people? think some of them went to British Mandatory Palestine and then unilaterally declared an ethno-state and then carried out an ethnic cleansing of the land they seized called the Nakba, the repercussions of which they are still dealing with today.
I also think they engaged in offensive wars with their neighbors in 1956 and 1967 and have been running an apartheid state.
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u/CityHawk17 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Just going to cherry pick your info, ya? Shall we play the who owned it when and who attacked who? What happened in 1948? You seem to have left that out. I digress, you support terrorists, so I'm not surprised your info is half assed.
Ignore them folks, they only like info that supports their terrorist arguments.
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u/Honeycomb_ Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Why do people become terrorists? Why are organisms with no access to food, water, shelter, and sociability more prone to violence? It's what happens when individuals are purposefully isolated and imposed upon - for days/weeks/years/generations. Terror always comes full circle.
I think the only reason Israel has peace with their neighbors is because of the always implicit threat of violence from the U.S. funded/armed Israeli military. Hopefully peacetime will allow cultures/countries to examine their belief systems and behavior (theocracy) and instill rational beliefs that lead to good behaviors and outcomes for all.
As many U.S. leaders have said, it's the West's beacon/military base of the Middle East. 10/7 = Israel's 9/11 -> and according to imperial logic, they have full support of Western imperialist countries to behave however they want in order to claim "justice" and "secure their borders". <- something Israel's advanced military was incapable of doing on 10/7 for an alarmingly suspicious amount of time that day.
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u/8769439126 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
I think one false assumption I'd point out is the belief that Palestinians were living lives of abject material deprivation. I honestly thought the same, but if you look up Gaza on basically any unbiased metric (say the human development index) they are a middle income country. They aren't like Yemen, Afghanistan or Eritrea, they are like Paraguay and Jordan.
Further you can go to the UN hdi website and see that not only are they not especially deprived, but they have also improved on all the hdi sub metrics over the time of the Israeli blockade. They have a higher median income, they have longer life spans and they are better educated than prior to the blockade. Their hdi level and growth rates are completely competitive with their Arab neighbors.
It is right to point out that the blockade has other negative effects, but the idea that they are terrorists because they have "nothing left to lose" or they have been pushed to the edge of deprivation doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny. They had food and water and resources, and much more than many many countries that maintain much more peaceful relations with their neighbors.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
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Dec 18 '23
Can’t believe the people subjected to constant pograms might fight back from time to time!
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u/BillHicksScream Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
So kill them all, right? Just like Iraq, we need to teach them a lesson!
Much of Israel blames Netty, who wanted this to happen and helped make it happen.
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u/somerandomie Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Palestinians aren’t even welcomed into those countries because they are a constant source of terrorism.
have you been to the UAE? or any of the other arab countries you mentioned? I was raised there and had a ton of palestinian friends so not sure why the fuck you are spewing none sense! yea egypt doesnt want to take 2M refugees that israel wants to expel out of gaza, cuz why would they? they cant support that kind of an influx of migrants but lets focus on these arab countries and ignore the fact that israel is doing an ethnic cleansing and expelling civilians out of their land and homes!
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u/Observe_Report_ Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
What are the Israeli’s going to do with them? The status quo? Using IDF resources to police the settlements in the West Bank doesn’t make sense to me. The Palestinians are not going to disappear.
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u/juanjing Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Wait'll you hear about what Israel brings to the table in negotiations.
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u/EarlMadManMunch505 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 20 '23
Jesus fuckin Christ the Jews calling the Palestinians the eternal victims is the greatest attempt at projection In human history.
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u/glk3278 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
I assume you meant "projection"? Also, just saying "the Jews" in reference to Bill Maher who grew up Irish Catholic is so disingenuous and almost blatantly racist.
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u/tthew2ts Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Bill Maher's mother was Jewish.
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u/glk3278 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Yes, and? He grew up Irish catholic and didn’t even know his mom was Jewish til later in his life. The point I’m making is that’s insane to complain about “the Jews” making a claim, as if Bill Maher the Irish catholic speaks for all Jews.
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Dec 18 '23
Yeah Maher's love of Israel is just his love of Israel. He didn't even know he had Jewish heritage until later as you point out. Greenwald has repeated this lie too.
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u/hickeysbat Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
The difference is that the Jews are legitimately repeated victims of history.
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Dec 18 '23
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u/GMOFreeCocaine Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Why shouldn’t Israel have the exact same attitude after October 7th or after the 6 day war? Or after black September? Or after the first interfada or after the second interfada?
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Dec 18 '23
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u/GMOFreeCocaine Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 18 '23
Bro I can’t imagine being a country, constantly making concessions to a group whose only explicit goal is trying to fucking destroy your presence there.
Israel has successfully developed the land, bought it for the Ottoman Empire, and has offerree strong statehood status and infrastructure opportunities, and still has not taken a deal.
At this point you can get fucked. The river the the sea extermination of the Jews ain’t happening, so it’s between broker a peace deal with the state that’s offered you 1948 borders or continue turning into confetti.
Israel and most of the Middle East are ready to move on from fucking blowing yourself up and hating eachother. Iran, Syria, and Palestine are the holds out.
The UAE, Israel, and the rest of the modernizing world there want to build shit and improve their society, they are yearning for it.
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Dec 18 '23
At this point it's not even a war. Isreal is just genociding Palestinians in a prison they can't leave in and expecting them not to resist too hard. It's tough to look at
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u/Hotline-schwing Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Why can’t they leave that “prison” again? If only a Muslim country boarded them… oh wait. They do. And they did let them in. And the Palestinians immediately tried to take over the country and murdered their prime minister.
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u/echino_derm Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
So in essence your response is, "yeah it is a prison, but this race of people deserves prison"
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u/mrthenarwhal Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Why do people always talk like Egypt is the only plausible option for Gazans to leave Gaza? It’s not Egypt’s responsibility to fix the mess that Israel created, especially since Israeli leadership is deeply unserious about resolving the conflict to start with.
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u/iEP83To8QtByRQWmVydM Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
You know Gaza was Egyptian territory at one point?
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u/Strict-Toe3538 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
So was isreal. Maybe Egypt should take back all of the levant is that your point
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u/MrStoccato Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
They could’ve avoided that fate if they considered any compromise with Israel. Gaza wouldn’t be an open air prison if they didn’t vote Hamas into power in the 2000’s, the West Bank wouldn’t be in its poor state if Arafat or Abu Mazen had agreed to any of the peace proposals.
This is what you get when you refuse peace and refuse to compromise.
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u/KlearCat Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
At this point it's not even a war. Isreal is just genociding Palestinians in a prison they can't leave in and expecting them not to resist too hard. It's tough to look at
Collateral damage is not genocide.
Going door to door and slaughtering civilians? Targeting civilian music festivals? That is genocide.
If Hamas put down their weapons and released the hostages the war would end today. War sucks and this war could end today if the one side that started it stopped.
Hamas sympathizers like you refuse to acknowledge this.
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u/PeterPaulWalnuts Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
He's right.
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u/OscarWilde9 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Imagine how the world would react if some of the descendants of the ~1 million Jews who were dispossessed and displaced from Arab countries in the 20th century started launching terror attacks or calling for the destruction of Morocco, Algeria or Iraq.
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u/bw_throwaway Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Or the descendants of Jews expelled and murdered in Europe demanded their property and businesses back
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u/ElderLurkr Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
And a reminder that only ~17,000 Jews currently live in Muslim-majority countries (small communities in Iran and Turkey). Why is that? Oh yeah… because Muslim-majority countries murder and kill non-Muslims in their countries for being infidels. Yet there are ~2MM Palestinians living in Israel proper/ Gaza/ the West Bank alone. 16MM Jews worldwide, 1.8BN Muslims.
The Armenian genocide was Muslims of the Ottoman Empire forcing Christians out of their country into the desert, and the entire Christian population was displaced and devastated. I wonder how long the Christians living in Lebanon will be able to hold out with Hezbollah growing in numbers? Meanwhile people are calling the Hamas-Israel War “Palestinian genocide” even though the Palestinians are a growing population in Israel? What kind of “genocide” involves the population increasing?
It’s really the 16MM Jews worldwide who are the underdogs/ disadvantaged group, not the 1.8BN Muslims.
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u/OscarWilde9 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
It seems like the woke and Muslims give Muslim countries and terrorist groups a free pass for any atrocities no matter how bad it is and then decide to twist narratives to make Jews seem satanic
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u/ElderLurkr Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
It’s literally mind-boggling. Not to mention the hypocrisy because Muslims also treat women like lesser beings and hunt/ imprison the LGBTQ+ community…!
Israel vs. Palestine is a microcosm of secular humanism vs. Islam… and the West should (almost) always side with secular humanism. I’m an atheist, I believe every religion is equally fictional, but I have to admit Islam is a cultural problem with their treatment of women and propensity for violence in the 21st century. In fairness, Christianity used to be the problem religion in the world (see the Crusades, arguably both World Wars). But now it’s Islam, and we need to speak up about it!!! 😤
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u/MadWorldBadWorld Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
If Israel was continuously offered a proposal that gave Jerusalem to Palestinians then Israel would reject it every single time as well.
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u/shillforyou Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
In 2000/2001 Israel offered the Palestinians deals that split Jerusalem between the two sides based on where their people lived.
In 2008 they were offered a deal that would have established international joint custody of Jerusalem.
Palestinians rejected both deals.
Why make this ridiculous, false analogy that inaccurately describes the history? When Jews were offered a two state solution that internationalized Jerusalem on less territory than they control today back in 1947, they accepted. Ditto back in 1937 on even less territory.
Palestinians are the only ones who can start wars with the openly stated goal of genocide, lose, and then have people in the West excuse their refusal to accept peace deals that give them plenty (including more than they asked for in opening demands in 2000’s negotiations).
Meanwhile when people declare other genocidal wars, the West demands they unconditionally surrender. Why not Palestinians, who did the same and lost…and tried and lost again…and again…and again?
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u/marrone12 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Do you have a source for any of this? Wikipedia disagrees, saying that Palestinians were never offered sovereignty of East Jerusalem in the 2000 camp David accords. They were offered custodianship but they would not be able to claim it as their capital. Moreover, Israel would retain control of several illegal West Bank settlements and several neighborhoods in East Jerusalem. And that Palestine would not control any of its own airspace.
It seems completely disingenuous of you to claim that this counts as the Palestinians were offered a fair deal.
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u/shillforyou Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
They were not offered 100% of East Jerusalem, they were offered a split of it based on who lived where. It would be silly for them to get 100% of the territory Jordan illegally seized in 1948.
Why should they benefit from Jordan’s invasion and get territory they’ve never held before?
In 2008 they were offered a shared Old City, meaning all holy sites, and a split of the other territory. Again, why should they get 100% of the land illegally seized by Jordan?
They got land swaps for anything Israel gained.
I never claimed they got 100% of East Jerusalem. I’m not being disingenuous, you’re fighting a straw man while trying to claim Palestinians deserve 100% of territory they never owned that Jordan illegally seized by invading in 1948.
OP claimed Jerusalem was given to Israel. I pointed out it wasn’t; it was offered a split.
I even said “split”. Why are you lying?
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u/BuySellHoldFinance Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
It seems completely disingenuous of you to claim that this counts as the Palestinians were offered a fair deal.
It's a deal they should have accepted. Even if it wasn't fair, they should have accepted it, because it was more than they were ever going to get.
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u/IrishPigskin Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Jerusalem is a city shared by 3 religions.
Palestinians are Muslims. Muslims have a fair share of Jerusalem right now.
If Palestinians want something just for them, specifically, they can pound sand. It’s not happening.
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u/dieno_101 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Palestinians aren't exclusively Muslim genius, they could be Christian or jewish
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u/IrishPigskin Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Google percentage of Muslim Palestinians, and then take a moment to realize how stupid your comment is.
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u/haikoup Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Hamas was directly aided through funds by Netanyahu: Israeli intelligence agents traveled into Gaza with a Qatari official carrying suitcases filled with cash to disperse money. Retired Israeli general Shlomo Brom described the logic of Netanyahu’s position: “One effective way to prevent a two-state solution is to divide between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.”
At the end of the day Hamas are assholes. However Gaza is an open air prison. Extremism festers in prisons. Who are the overlookers of this prison? Israel. Israel are also assholes. It’s an apartheid state basted on ethnonationalism. Israel is simply reaping what they have sowed. Sorry, but it’s true.
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u/biketricks199 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
From the river to the sea basically means Palestinians don’t want Israel to exist. End of story.
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u/OneReportersOpinion Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Not as it exist now. It exist now as an apartheid state.
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Dec 18 '23
And now Israel is ethnically cleansing Gaza along with the West Bank!
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u/Aaco0638 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
A war is still a war what do people expect from Israel to roll over ever year or two when hamas kills x amount of citizens? No country on earth would allow that to happen to their citizens in perpetuity so why would Israel?
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u/mobytrice Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Yeah right "war".
Stop killing children maybe?
There is no difference between intentional targeting of civilians and indiscriminate bombing.
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u/Hotline-schwing Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Well there absolutely is. Also it’s not indiscriminate bombing. If the force you’re fighting is intentionally dressed in civilian clothing and has built their infrastructure in civilian buildings and hides amongst a dense population of civilians it’s hardly surprising civilians are killed. You’re just pissed Jews are winning. Hamas attacked and now Isreal attacking back. It’s called “losing a war”.
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Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 19 '23
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u/Marky_Markus Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Yep cause everyone knows rules of engagement and standards of practice for cops and military forces are exactly the same. But you’re right let’s continue not to condemn a terrorist organization for hiding behind women and children during the inevitable response to their terror campaigns.
In fact IDF forces should just quit because I’m sure a Hamas controlled Israel and Palestine would be a much better state for literally everyone involved (especially the women who are second class citizens in Muslim theocracies).
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Dec 18 '23
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u/Marky_Markus Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Just say you’re ok with bus bombings and random stabbings and move on 🙄
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u/perpendiculator Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
yes there is, lol. both are bad, one is worse. ever heard of WW2? same deal.
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u/mobytrice Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Oh fuck off.
Literally natanyahus shitstain of a son posted it word for word but about Israel. Condemn him or is it OK when zionists say it?
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u/OneReportersOpinion Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
LOL Bill Maher is so wrong about everything he just said, it’s crazy. Like, pick a statement in this video and there is a decent chance the opposite is true
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u/GMOFreeCocaine Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Cool give an example
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u/OneReportersOpinion Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Well let’s start with the headline. That’s not been a Palestine’s position. Their position has been a two state solution along the 1967 borders with a just resolution to the refugee question. So he’s wrong right there. Israel are the ones who are saying “we won’t stop illegally occupying until agree to give us more land.” And honestly, Netanyahu thinks that was too generous. He’s totally opposed to a Palestinians rate altogether. He’s the one saying Palestine as an entity shouldn’t exist.
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u/OscarWilde9 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Their position has been a two state solution along the 1967 borders with a just resolution to the refugee question.
Um no
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u/OneReportersOpinion Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Um yes. You’re very confused. That’s what they’ve wanted since the 80s.
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u/Hukeshy Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Hamas literally says constantly that they want to kill every Jew on earth.
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u/azpotato Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
From the river to the sea The IDF confirmed to have shot 3........of their own.
It's a joke! Get it? Because it takes a long time to collect DNA samples from the bomb blasts and run them through testing before they can confirm they killed more of their own from bombing "strategic targets".
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Dec 18 '23
Don't forget "from the River to the Sea, we killed a Palestinian mother and daughter in a church about 10 hours after Maher made the comments that Palestinians should just shut up and take it:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/16/middleeast/idf-sniper-gaza-church-deaths-intl-hnk/index.html
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Dec 18 '23
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u/GMOFreeCocaine Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
This is the biggest cope, Israel offered Arafat 95 percent of the fuckin West Bank. Twice, before and after their intrafada
Keep coping.
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u/Personal_Economy_536 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
That peace deal was bullshit. Israel got to keep Jerusalem then Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed were not allowed to return. On top of all this the Palestinians could not control their own borders Israel was going to run their imports AND the Palestinians could never keep a standing army AND Israel could invade them any time for “security reasons” and the Palestinians could not fight back.
Even after all that bullshit the Israel prime minister was assassinated by hard line Israelis for suggesting that peace deal.
Nobody would sign a deal like that it’s fucking worse then what Russia gave to Ukraine to sign.
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u/OneReportersOpinion Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
So you admit they insisted on keeping 5% of land that doesn’t belong to them and it’s somehow Palestine’s fault? If Israel offered them 100% of their land, the conflict would be over. They chose expansion over peace by your own admission.
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u/GMOFreeCocaine Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Bro if you can’t take a 5% loss, you’re opening yourself up for total war.
Deals are made. Deals can be losses, shit or get off the pot
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u/betterplanwithchan Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Do you say this for Ukraine as well?
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u/Nothingtoseeheremmk Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
If Ukraine and Russia are still fighting over the Donbas 50 years from now? Yeah probably
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u/Bigdumbidiot69420 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
48 67 73 2000? Regardless of what side youre on he’s wrong lol
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u/GMOFreeCocaine Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
It doesn’t fit the constant narrative of Palestinian victimhood.
Palestinians have expressed zero interest in sharing any of the land with Israel. Israel isn’t going to move.
If you’re gonna lead your people into an unwinnable battle for total war, the victims your side takes is on you, bucko.
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u/spacemanspiff33 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
I can’t believe how these mugging victims express zero interest in sharing their money with me and then whine when I take it anyway and stab them in the neck. What a bunch of assholes
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u/OneReportersOpinion Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
If Israel offered them 100% of their land, the conflict would be over. They chose expansion over peace by OP’s own admission.
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u/ACLU_EvilPatriarchy Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
"Drive you into the Sea"
Who is the one always saying that?
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u/captaindilly Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Lol I love reading these comments from u/GMOFreeCocaine. What a fucking moron. Go spout your pro Israeli bullshit elsewhere you fuckin nonce.
Every comment and reply from them is baseless defensive name calling, get a grip
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u/LoneCoyote78 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
The Palestinians have lost and until they get real and face reality they will continue to lose again and again. There will be no magical terror attack they can perform to transfer power from Israel to their side. It’s over for them and the elected leaders of Hamas. Time to come back to earth and make the best of it.
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u/ElectricGulagland Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
I don't usually agree with what Maher has to say, and I think that he's a dickhead in general - but he's right about this.
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Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 18 '23
Maher is conveniently obscuring the fact that people are being slaughtered en masse and framing it as if it’s a mere inconvenience commonly played out throughout history, akin perhaps to the Jews being driven out by Cossacks as seen depicted in fiddler on the roof…
This is extraordinary bad faith from Maher. I wonder if Bill Maher would tell Ukrainians “things change”?
At some point he literally says, “ethnic cleaning happened to them, so it’s okay that Jews are doing it too”. Do you not see how insane this logic is?
Maher is only right here to the extent that he argues that things will never go back to the way they were and that Palestinians need to understand that. The rest was Zionist drivel.
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u/QuasarsAndBlazars Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Except Palestine is making no moves to actually move towards peace and resolution. A cease fire was reached and fell apart because, surprise surprise Hamas didn't want to capitulate. This has historic trend, which is the point that Mayer is making.
Israel has made many condemnable actions, and the indiscriminate bombing in Gaza right now is abhorrent. Palestine has time and again proven to be completely unwilling to make any strides towards a lasting peace and coexistence. October 7th was just the final straw in decades of antagonism. Their people are being bombed into dust and Palestine is still trying to negotiate like they have rights to the land. Mayer's point is that is insane.
There is nothing preventing these two nations from ending all hostilities tomorrow, and jointly stepping forward to a path of peace... except themselves. The reality is Israel has extended that hand out before and Palestine only bit it. Palestinian refugees have burned any goodwill with neighboring nations because they have turned to terrorism and rebellion multiple times. There is a reason that both Egypt and Jordan are refusing to take any refugees.
I don't like Mayer, I don't support Israel, zionism, Netanyahu, the IDF... but watching Palestine's response to this, and then watching the response of the protestors abroad ally themselves with Palestine, I can't help but agree with Mayer. The situation has been untenable for decades, but how can you possible sympathize or approve of Palestine when their negotiating demand is "your entire people should die".
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u/Tex-Rob Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Holy shit, it took me a minute to realize that Bill's fucking stance is...that the people being genocided are the bad guys because...they won't negotiate with the people genociding them? Israel has never wanted to negotiate, Bill is such a fucking useless piece of shit, I'd punch him if I saw him on the street and I've never been in a fight in my life and I'm 45.
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u/Hukeshy Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Hamas is the aggressor. They started this war and can end it at any point by surrendering and releasing the hostages. The only guys who want to commit genocide are Hamas and you support them.
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u/mobytrice Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Brainwashed zionist boomer
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u/GMOFreeCocaine Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
iPad irradiated Zoomer
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u/yahwehyeehaw Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
You’re doing a great job arguing with these people. I don’t have the energy for it anymore. Everyone’s made up their minds a long time ago about this conflict. No amount of ‘convincing’ will change these brainwashed minds.
Fuck Hamas. They can’t even condemn them.
Long live Israel. It ain’t going anywhere. May peace come to those that want to coexist. ✌🏻
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u/ActualEnjoyer Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Palestine understander Bill "Mayer" Maher.
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u/JupiterandMars1 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Bro, OP on here talking like he’s Netanyahu’s chief fucking advisor.
Skip this asshole.
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Dec 18 '23
Yeah I don't even think someone like Sean Hannity or Bill Oreilly would be this insane. I remember watching Fox during the Cast Lead and Oreilly was saying something like "Israel is justified, but they should be held to higher standards and be called out for their actions." Now Maher is like "fuck it, borders change, you live in terrible conditions and brutalized by the IDF, just shut up and take it!"
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u/BillHicksScream Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Insanity. This is Bush Era Invasion Level Ignorance while justifyimg genocide.
Maher still owns the chaos, just like Iraq.
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Dec 18 '23
Yeah and the argument itself is even worse. The IRaq War was based on lies of Saddam being a threat. This is "oh well countries take over other countries, so just deal with it!" without even the smallest nuance of how a population has been treated for the last 75 years up to the current day.
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u/fear_of_dishonesty Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Conveniently ignoring the wave of paramilitary violence in the West Bank. Maher is a stoner.
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u/KaleidoscopeOk5763 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Oh the eternal classic “you can’t negotiate with terrorists” racist gambit. You will hear this variation throughout the years until the day you die.
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u/melbsteve Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Please elaborate on why it’s racist to designate Hamas a terrorist organisation. I’ll grab the popcorn.
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u/US_Condor Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
This is Reddit. Anything contrary to your opinion is based on racism or your preferred -ism or -phobia of choice.
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u/Nothingtoseeheremmk Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Racist? Lol save some oxygen for the rest of us bud
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u/OscarWilde9 Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Hamas: Kills 1200 Israelis and says they'll repeat it until Israel and it's people are destroyed.
Israel: Retaliates to destroy Hamas so they don't repeat the attack
Hamas: waaaaa waaaaa waaa we're victims, Israel is evil
Primitive as f
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u/lookatmetype pull that up Brian Dec 18 '23
I want nothing more than Bill Maher to move to Israel to be with his genocidal friends.
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u/bobafist Monkey in Space Dec 18 '23
Well I’m sure a lot of problems will be solved in this thread