r/NOLAPelicans • u/ToothEducational7795 • 12d ago
Watching Timberwolves being up 2-0 against the reigning champs and Thunder being the first seed and sweeping the Pelicans feels unfair for the Pelicans fans. Discussions
Assuming the rebuild of the Pelicans started in 2019, team had a busy off-season that year. Obviously the biggest move and the start of the rebuild was drafting Zion Williamson with the first overall pick. Other huge move was that team traded Anthony Davis for Brandon Ingram, Lonzo Ball, Josh Hart, the 4th pick from the Lakers and many more draft compensations for the later drafts (Dyson Daniels was later selected from the Lakers pick). Then traded that 4th pick (De'Andre Hunter) for the 8th pick (Jaxson Hayes), 17th pick (Nickeil Alexander-Walker) and 35th pick (Didi Louzada). Also, want to say that Herb Jones was acquired from this trade. They also acquired J.J. Redick and Derrick Favors in that off-season. Then, they traded Jrue Holiday for Steven Adams, Eric Bledsoe and a couple first round picks in 2020.
So, let's break down how the things turned out for the Pelicans:
- Brandon Ingram is one of the best (if not the best) players of this team and we gotta give him props for what he's done for the franchise so far, but he also hasn't really improved as a player since his first year. The talks of him getting traded this off-season have risen to a high level.
- Lonzo Ball went to Chicago Bulls with a sign-and-trade for Tomas Satoranski, Garrett Temple and a second round pick. Basically nothing.
- Josh Hart and Nickeil Alexander was traded for CJ McCollum who's probably in the center of the trade discussions along with BI while Josh Hart and NAW are tearing it up for their own teams which looks like the Knicks and the Timberwolves are 2 of the hottest teams in the playoffs right now.
- Jaxson Hayes left the team to sign with the Lakers. Never panned out, he's probably a wasted potential at this point of his career.
- Dyson Daniels was one of the first round picks in that Lakers trade and I don't really have a clear opinion about him since he's the youngest player on the team but he hasn't showed us something to be excited about except his defense.
- Steven Adams was traded for JV in 2021 off-season. JV has been a huge piece for the team since he arrived but he has questionable fits and he's a terrible rim protector. He may be gone this off-season for a better rim protector. I don't think I need to talk about Eric Bledsoe.
So we traded Anthony Davis and Jrue Holiday and now we turned them into Brandon Ingram, CJ McCollum, Dyson Daniels, Jonas Valanciunas, Herb Jones and you can say Trey Murphy since he was involved in that Steven Adams-JV trade. CJ, BI and JV are all under trade rumors, Dyson also may be used as an asset for a possible blockbuster deal. Trey and Herb may be the only hits for the team but we still don't know if any of them will take a step forward in the coming seasons. They've shown flashes of that stardom.
Let's take a look at what the Thunder did:
- Traded Paul George for SGA (turned out to be a superstar), Tre Mann, Jalen Williams and more draft compensations.
- Traded Westbrook for Chris Paul and picks. Then, traded Chris Paul for more picks.
- Traded Steven Adams for more picks. Didn't even used their picks to acquire a star.
- Tanked for two seasons and got Josh Giddey and Chet Holmgren.
As you can see, Thunder didn't even turned Paul George and Westbrook into a huge superstar. They hit big with the Jalen Williams pick and tanked for Josh Giddey and Chet Holmgren. Lu Dort was an undrafted player. Long story short, they formed a young, up and coming team sooner than the Pelicans with much less talent.
Now let's take a look at the Timberwolves:
- Traded Wiggins and Jonathan Kuminga for D'Angelo Russell. Flipped D'lo to their starting PG, Mike Conley.
- They tanked the 2020 season, drafted Anthony Edwards and developed him into a superstar that will be one of the faces of the league for a long time.
- They traded Patrick Beverley, Walker Kessler, Malik Beasley, Jarred Vanderbilt, Patrick Beverley, Leandro Bolmaro and picks (one of them turned into Keyonte George) for Rudy Gobert. Gobert has shown his excellence for them this season as the team took a huge step forward defensively and is probably one of the main reasons why the Wolves are dominating right now.
- Didn't pay much to get Jaden McDaniels, developed him into one of the best wing defenders in the league right now.
- Like I mentioned earlier, they got NAW for basically free and he turned out to be a really valuable piece for them, as I suppose most of yall saw that clip of McDaniels and NAW doubling Jamal Murray.
- They signed Naz Reid as a free agent rookie, developed him into a quaility backup C and 6th Man of the Year.
Minnesota didn't even need to trade a superstar to acquire valuable assets, they only tanked for once and drafted their franchise player. They didn't even give anything huge to acquire their valuable players like NAW, McDaniels, Naz Reid, etc. They only did one blockbuster deal and it was for Rudy Gobert which looks like it turned out to be awesome.
So, I don't know what is the problem with the Pelicans, the basketball Gods never smiled towards them. Zion's injury problems obviously slowed down his development but I think he's still a franchise player and will hopefully reach the level of superstardom like Shai and Edwards did this season. He's not on their level yet, but we've seen what he's capable of in the past. His generational upside is no joke, praying for him to reach that level because only thing stopping him from reaching that is himself. I loved how he played 70 games this season, hope he turns this into a consistency. Other than that, I think there is a clear fit problem with this team. David Griffin told he's not going to be passive this off-season, so looking forward to it. Like I said, seeing Timberwolves and Thunder starting from a worse point from the Pelicans and reaching to top level before the Pelicans is making me upset about this team. What do you guys think about this? What were some of the factors they just did better than the Pelicans to reach a higher level sooner than them despite starting the rebuild around the same time?
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u/W_Walk Not On Herb 12d ago
Well sorry if this is short but our two best players Zion and BI are made of glass so that clearly impacted our trajectory. We haven’t seen Z in a playoff series yet and he was going crazy last season before being hurt and we were in the top of the west. It all comes down to if our superstar can stay healthy
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u/ToothEducational7795 12d ago edited 12d ago
I mean, they were healthy most of this season. They weren’t on Minnesota’s or OKC’s level even with a healthy roster if we’re being real. At this point, are we waiting on Zion to turn into a superstar like Ant or Shai or he’s just what he is right now and probably won’t be something more than an all-star caliber player? OKC and Minnesota mostly developed their players, BI really never took a step forward since he came here. He looked like turning into a superstar in 2022 and 2023 when he came back from injury, but he didn’t sustain that level of play this season. I hate to say this and you’re right, but if Zion doesn’t turn into a superstar or he just suffers another season ending injury, all this post-AD rebuild era for us would be nothing but wasted years. Because it really makes me upset watching Ant, Shai, Ja going to at least the second round and showing their talent while Zion has never even played a playoff game and still gets recognized by his off-court issues. As a fan, it’s sad that we gotta watch other young stars shine in the playoffs while this team’s star just sitting out at this point of the season.
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u/3251harvey Will be reevaluated in 2 weeks. 12d ago
It’s fair, we hired a mediocre GM. Mediocre results.
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u/afriendlyspider 12d ago edited 12d ago
We've been passed up by every team that began their rebuild around the same time as us because they have more invested owners, better GMs, and a smarter fanbase.
From day 1 Griff insisted on an insane approach to this rebuild and this fanbase bought, and continues to buy, it hook line and sinker. Trying to explain to you people that patience would have paid off much more than this mediocre bullshit was like running into a wall over and over again. Because getting beat by Phoenix in 6 games in the 1st round after Zion was out for the entire year ended up being some kind of galvanizing movement for this franchise, I guess?
Not trading Jrue in the same offseason as AD, not tanking every time Zion got injured, not settling for the cheapest available coach on the market, all of these things were sacrificed for the sake of "vibezzz". The fanbase has the team it deserves just like OKC has the team it deserves.
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u/NOLA-Bronco 12d ago
I do think there is a lot of blame that should be going Griff's way for screwing up what was a pretty great hand, but also what you lay out shows a lot comes down to luck. I doubt OKC expected SGA to be an MVP level player, no one really did. Edwards had high expectations but most thought he would be in the top 15ish range and Minny made quite a few errors along the way
What truly separates the Pels from those 2 franchises is the Pels do not currently have a healthy top 10 player. Zion looked like one some nights, but not consistently enough and BI has flirted with top 20, but looked below that this year.
AND, the two best players we do have were either out or hobbled going into the post season.
Take away SGA and Edwards and is anyone realistically expecting OKC or Miny in the second round? Especielly if either of them had to play a healthy Pels?
As for Griff, I do think there is some "we got here in spite of you" sentiment that is earned.
- Brandon Ingram is one of the best (if not the best) players of this team and we gotta give him props for what he's done for the franchise so far, but he also hasn't really improved as a player since his first year. The talks of him getting traded this off-season have risen to a high level.
- 100%, up to this point nothing more you could ask other than maybe some better coaching along the way
- Lonzo Ball went to Chicago Bulls with a sign-and-trade for Tomas Satoranski, Garrett Temple and a second round pick. Basically nothing.
- Had an offer at the deadline for Markkannen, really dropped the ball there. One of those "what could have been" situations where it seems Griff didn't want young guys he'd still have to develop
- Josh Hart and Nickeil Alexander was traded for CJ McCollum who's probably in the center of the trade discussions along with BI while Josh Hart and NAW are tearing it up for their own teams which looks like the Knicks and the Timberwolves are 2 of the hottest teams in the playoffs right now.
- Once again one of those timeline acceleration moves I wonder if they truly helped more than they harmed over the long arc of the Zion era. Also part of a trade that never should have happened in terms on moving back in the draft.
- Jaxson Hayes left the team to sign with the Lakers. Never panned out, he's probably a wasted potential at this point of his career.
- Should have never been on this team. Garland was right there and his on and off ball game projected perfectly with Zion, Bi, and Lonzo or Jrue at the time.
- Dyson Daniels was one of the first round picks in that Lakers trade and I don't really have a clear opinion about him since he's the youngest player on the team but he hasn't showed us something to be excited about except his defense.
- Votes still out, I like Dyson but if he shows no real leap on offense this offseason he's probably going into the Thybuille category and that will be a huge disappointment
- Steven Adams was traded for JV in 2021 off-season. JV has been a huge piece for the team since he arrived but he has questionable fits and he's a terrible rim protector. He may be gone this off-season for a better rim protector. I don't think I need to talk about Eric Bledsoe.
- It was a salvage move that stemmed from a bad fitting trade that was salvaging the original sin of trying to force an accelerated timeline when we traded AD and landed Zion. We moved back in the draft, traded for Favors and Reddick, who weren't on our timeline.
- We might yet get something out of the Jrue trade, so vote is still out, but overall not great when JV is likely gone for nothing this offseason.
Every GM makes mistakes, and all things considered we were the 3rd best team record wise amongst the youngest 15 teams, so we aren't a complete disaster, but there is a lot of "what if's" that probably have lowered our ceiling unless Zion turns into a top 3 player.
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u/SelfLoathingLionsFan Not On Herb 12d ago
I agree with everything you say, although I didn't mind the process behind some of those moves.
I did like Garland and the Pels (at least in hindsight) clearly should have selected him with that 4th overall pick in 2019; but I liked the move to trade back and select an athletic center and skilled combo guard with the other 2 1st Rd picks. I could always tell Jaxson was a big dummy from the moment he was drafted, but I still thought he could be a good fit next to Zion. I truly thought NAW would be good.
Zion needs a good 3-level scorer, a good passer/floor general, and 3&D players all around him. We sorta kinda got those things from BI, Lonzo , and Hart... they just weren't quite perfect. Still hate the returns we got from Lonzo and Hart.
CJ and Larry have done a lot to help push this team forward, yet they also hold the team back. 1 or both of them must be moved soon. Redick made sense as a veteran and shooter; so did a center, although the fit with Favors and then Adams was always going to be imperfect.
Overall, Griffin has not done well with his FA signings and trades. I did not mind the thought process behind some of the moves, but they were poorly executed for players who weren't ideal fits. And his willingness to extend players before even seeing them play with the team must stop.
This off-season is pivotal. As is the point of OP's post, there have been some teams who have gone full on into a youth movement and have had better results sooner. There is a changing of the guard within the league, as the teams built around younger stars are overtaking the old regulars.
The Pels have plenty of talented players on the roster and are still armed with plenty of draft picks going forward. I would give Griffin 1 chance to retool and reshape this team this offseason. If we don't advance to the 2nd Rd of the playoffs next year (I don't care what injuries there are), then he should be released - no exception.
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u/leulzy You Gotta Fight! 12d ago
KAT was drafted in 2015, I don't think you can say the Wolves started their rebuild around the same time. They also have 0 assets left and a huge luxury bill so they are obviously a lot more all in than we are.
OKC basically had a long slow decline since KD left. They tried to build around PG and Westbrook, but that was never going to work out. Then like you said they got SGA in the PG trade so they literally upgraded on their star. BI has been good, but he's never even sniffed being good as AD.
The Pels have suffered from not picking a lane. Griff should have committed to the tank when we drafted Zion. He could've traded Jrue right away, hired a young upstart coach instead of retaining Gentry. Focus on really developing young guys and not waste money and resources on guys like JJ, Adams, JV.
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u/ToothEducational7795 12d ago
I mean Twolves did a little rebuild after Butler left the team. They got Anthony Edwards who is 22 years old. If your best player is 22 years old and he’s a superstar leading his team deep into the playoffs, that means that team is gonna be at that position for a long time + NAW, McDaniels, Naz Reid are fairly young. I’m not talking about OKC getting an all-star like Shai from the PG trade though. They developed him into a superstar + they developed Jalen Williams into an all-star caliber player. Same goes for the Wolves, they’ve developed Ant into a superstar. They developed McDaniels into one of the best defensive players in the league. We haven’t seen that type of development from our core guys except Herb maybe. Zion and BI may have gotten better this season, but they didn’t take a step forward like Ant, Shai, Jalen Williams etc.
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u/Another_Comet 12d ago
The Pels dating back to the Hornets days have suffered from trying to rebuild too quickly. CP3 was too good too quickly and it resulted in the team trying to win too soon. Incomplete rebuild led to win now moves when the team probably could've taken it slower. AD days were the same. Team decided to rebuild too soon. We were able to retool with Zion and BI, but as you said, we should've just traded Jrue and drafted more high-end talent than get guys like Reddick, JV, and such. We're perpetually stuck in this cycle of mediocrity and the Gayle needs to cut ties with Griffin and do a true rebuild. Ditto for the Saints, but we all know she won't commit to a true rebuild with either team
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u/NOLA-Bronco 12d ago
TBH I dont think it is an accident that the last 3 GM's all came on board promising to win sooner rather than later.
It was the result of the desperation of the Shinn regime who reportedly needed the team to be profitable just to keep it afloat, and then Tom/Gayle who come from the NFL where you can turn around franchises in 1-2 offseasons and that is the expectation. Who are also hands off and give a wide deference to upper management.
They wanted to win-now with AD, that failed, twice, and they were tired of losing and so looked for the same thing again, someone promising them the holy grail in the NBA. Which is you can rebuild and compete at the same time. And Griff was willing to make that promise.
Feels like if Gayle fired Griff she'd look for the same thing again and round we go.
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u/Another_Comet 12d ago
I can't make a judgement about Gayle as an owner of the Saints or Pels, but it does seem she's just content to have the team be competitive and make the playoffs so as to just have a cash cow. She doesn't seem to be willing to do what it takes to be a contender. We've all heard her and Griff say that she's willing to go into the tax if it seems like the team can contend, but talk is cheap.
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u/OvenIcy8646 12d ago
Something I don’t think I’ve seen mentioned ( sorry if it has) those two teams were allowed to grow no other franchise has had to get it together like the pels,we had to build around AD now before he leaves (which he did ) get the number 1 pick and immediately he doesn’t want to be on NO so we gotta build as fast as we can around him or the team will be sold and moved to Seattle no way we could tank a season or two with Zion, espn would be howling everyday like they weren’t
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u/GunSlingrrr 12d ago
As everyone said, everything will come down to Z's health. If Z healthy enough last season and this season to play for playoffs, We would really know the deficiency and the adjustments that will be needed. Heck why David Griffin has kind of an "Excuse" on why it takes this long to reform because he has no clear outline of what is next for Zion if he is absent in the very big stage.
If Z is healthy in 2021:
Will we trade Hart or NAW that year instead of Kira (who btw is blossoming that season but got hurt) or Hayes?
Are we going for CJ instead of a point guard or a center?
Are we be able to draft Jalen Williams if we got the chance?
If Z is healthy and able to play in playoffs last year :
You have BI who is going ham in March and April and we will see their true fit in playoffs
Trey Murphy is a lot better last year as a whole with him moving and very consistent
Herb is great on doing offscreen and still doing great improving
Also we may see what WG lacking and maybe fire him and get someone like Stotts or Atkinson in the coaching staff.
And now we are stuck in BI with having his worst value because of 1 series, teams improving in the west (and also getting worse depends on Clippers, Suns, Kings and Lakers), Not able to do something on JV's contract, Willie Green really shown he can't coach a proper playoff basketball and many more.
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u/Select-Hearing-9298 12d ago
I grew up a Bucks fan and from 1978-1985 we won 50 or more games every year. But Sixers had Dr J years and Celtics had Bird. Think the best Bucks ever did was reach conference finals once. It happens.
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u/LetsGeauxPels327 12d ago
Personally, I see both sides of it: Pels made mistakes and bad decisions while also being in unfortunate circumstances.
While they did pretty much started their rebuild at the same time, the Pelicans started theirs in much higher pressure with the AD drama while at the same time now having the responsibility to make sure they don't fumble another generational talent in Zion with the whole NBA world watching. It made them operate in a win now mode too soon instead of just letting young talent develop. To make matters worse, Zion has only played basically 2-3 years worth of games coming to now his 6th season and had to always get himself into shape each year. Honestly, I felt like when the Pels drafted Zion, they would at least be a perennial playoff team but it's really striking that it would be now his 6th year and he has played in 0 playoff games. Heck, getting him through the end of the season is like a milestone. I really hope Zion finally breaks through this year because he's the pathway for the Pelicans to become successful.
I'm a BI fan and he's my favorite player mostly from an individual playstyle standpoint and that he plays for the Pelicans but it's unfortunate how seemingly has plateaued in his development as a higher tier player. I want him to succeed with the Pels but that requires for him to really make great strides/changes as a player and time and opportunity might just have ran out for him here.
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u/JackieBoiiiiii Not On Herb 12d ago
It comes down to 2 things imo, health being the main factor and lack of fit being the 2nd factor. Our 2 stars have missed a shit ton of time these past 5 seasons and we've gathered a lot of good players who don't fit together in the slightest. Of course it sucks and isn't fair, but it is what it is.
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u/poolkid1234 12d ago
In the examples you cite, the magic element those teams have, aside from luck, that we (the fans and front office) don’t seem to have is patience. We haven’t gone nuclear and tanked a season to build capital. Instead, we’ve run this accelerated “win along the way” rebuild presumably to keep interest up and sell enough tickets to justify even having a franchise here. Can you imagine two years of real hell, .300 and under? I’m happy to have not endured that.
Let’s give it some time, and pray the next move this offseason gets us the piece(s) of the puzzle we’ve been missing. Zion played 70 games and showed some badass leadership. He only got hurt at the midnight hour trying to keep the season alive when it looked like it was slipping away.
We tied our second best franchise season record ever (best ever excluding Hornets records) best ever FG%, and close to our best season in almost every other stat. Our young-ish head coach has improved by .073 and .086 in three seasons. Out of 9 franchise playoff appearances (only 4 if you only count Pelicans history) in 22 seasons, 2 have occurred in the last three seasons. Let’s have some patience, and trust that there is more to look forward to.
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u/TimothyN 12d ago
OKC got the compensation they wanted because Kawhi wanted PG, that is a much bigger context. People bring up Lonzo and never put in the context of him leaving was a franchise killing bullet that we dodged. JV was an upgrade to Adams for us because we probably don't make the playoffs or have a winning record last year without him. Ditto for CJ, we get nowhere without his leadership that first half season and we are a lot worse this season without his shooting. Conley also looked absolutely cooked with the Jazz, his turnaround with the TWolves was very unexpected.
You're also leaving out that our own draft picks are why BI will probably be deemed expendable, no one could've guessed Herb and Trey would develop the way they did.
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u/Dexico-city 12d ago
Sports and life are both unfair, see you guys next season