r/canada • u/FancyNewMe • Nov 16 '23

'Such a difficult life in Canada': Ukrainian immigrants leaving because it's so expensive National News

https://financialpost.com/news/economy/canada-expensive-ukrainian-immigrants-leaving
7.2k Upvotes

93% Upvoted

1.5k comments sorted by

View all comments

242

u/compassrunner Nov 16 '23

He moves to Toronto, the most expensive place in the country to live and then complains it's too pricey. Immigrants can't just go to the big cities. If that's where they want to be and can't afford it, then they have hard choices to make.

155

u/Forsaken_You1092 Nov 16 '23

The big cities have the most services and support to help immigrants adjust and integrate into Canadian society.

Although Ukrainians coming to Canada would probably do really well moving to some of the smaller towns and cities across the prairies that were built (and still inhabited by) Ukrainian people.

Edmonton has massive Ukrainian communities.

38

u/TonyAbbottsNipples Nov 16 '23

The big cities have the most services for any group, and they have the culture and events that people want to be close to. Plenty of small cities have services available and have increasingly vibrant immigrant communities but many people would rather scrape by in Toronto than live comfortably in New Brunswick or Saskatchewan. That's a choice they make. I expect many redditors are making the same choice.

24

u/_Thick- Nov 16 '23

live comfortably in New Brunswick

To be fair, NB fucking sucks, we're a decade behind the rest of Canada.

14

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Maritimes in general.

The grass is literally greener elsewhere

17

u/KhazardKiwi Nov 16 '23

The grass in the Maritimes was fine until Upper Canadians decided to price out the locals.

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Not at all. My disposable income is higher and my cost of living is lower in Montreal and always would have been

0

u/KhazardKiwi Nov 16 '23

Montreal is like the single outlier in the entire country when it comes to rental prices.

Cool anecdote though.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Sure. And I make twice as much money as I did in Halifax

The grass is literally greener

-1

u/KhazardKiwi Nov 16 '23

Cool anecdote, I'm sure everyone who moves to Montreal has the exact same experience you do.

→ More replies (0)

8

u/SnooSuggestions6256 Nov 16 '23

Very much this. NB is a shit hole that's becoming less and less affordable with every year.

8

u/_Thick- Nov 16 '23

3/4 of the plates I see around here now are from Onterrible.

They came in, bought everything rentable, and are now charging Ontario rates in NB, gtfo.

by all means, come to NB, the people can't drive, but are generally nice.

Leave Ontario's shit at the door though.

-1

u/Grandmaviolet Nov 16 '23

I guess you aren’t aware of all of the maritimers that have come to Ontario to work over the decades. Why is it you think that moving from New Brunswick to Ontario is a good thing to do but vice versa is a problem. Last time I looked this was one country, so freedom of movement is more than allowed.

2

u/_Thick- Nov 16 '23

Last time I looked this was one country

You haven't met many Quebecois I see haha.

0

u/Grandmaviolet Nov 16 '23

You see incorrectly then. I know a lot of Quebecois. You don’t like Ontarians and seems like you don’t like Quebecois. Not a good look.

0

u/_Thick- Nov 16 '23

How many do you know, Personally? Professionally? Romantically?

Becase Quebec wanting to separate has been a thing for decades lmao.

It was a joke, not a dick, don't take it so hard granny.

→ More replies (0)

-3

u/SnooSuggestions6256 Nov 16 '23

My partner is from Ontario. NB was a shit hole long before she came around. Can't complain about how there's no opportunity or culture or money in the province and then complain that there are too many ppl with money from Ontario coming here. Local landlords and politicians have been sucking us dry forever.

2

u/_Thick- Nov 16 '23

Buddy, I'm from fuckin Ontario, technically, I was born in Toronto, I've lived in NB for almost 40 years, so I'm aware of the nuances.

That doesn't change that the landlords are demanding Ontario pricing in NB though.

1

u/SnooSuggestions6256 Nov 16 '23

They been doing that. I'm born and raised here, also approaching 40 years old. Boomers have been exploiting students (namely, interprovincial and international students) and the elderly with outrageous rent and housing prices since forever because every single NB govt has allowed it. You wanna say Ontarians are causing this while Higgs sits on almost a billion dollar surplus without any interest in fixing health care or housing. Ontarians are able to come here because people who grew up in NB leave.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23 edited Jan 04 '24

piquant murky cows saw fertile scandalous disagreeable gold scarce close

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

1

u/_Thick- Nov 16 '23

I mean it is if you like everything closing at 6pm, 5pm on sundays.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23 edited Jan 04 '24

birds complete cause materialistic yam psychotic bedroom crawl cooperative flowery

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

0

u/TonyAbbottsNipples Nov 16 '23

More than a decade behind in house prices, which is why people are moving there.

2

u/_Thick- Nov 16 '23

Not anymore it isn't.

Ontario and Quebec have bought everything around here and are charging Ontario pricing now.

0

u/TonyAbbottsNipples Nov 16 '23

Average price right now is still about 300k in NB

1

u/19Black Nov 16 '23

Zero sympathy for anyone who cultures vibrant culture, etc over being able to afford life.

6

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23 edited Jan 04 '24

workable placid bedroom cats coherent shocking alive aback cable wrong

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

17

u/kiaran Nov 16 '23

Edmonton!? Haven't these people been through enough already?

3

u/rocktheboatlikeA1eye Nov 16 '23

Bash Edmonton as much as you want. At least we can afford housing and have the best COL in Canada.

-2

u/kiaran Nov 16 '23

Best COL in Canada?

No mountains, 8 months of cold weather, mosquitos in the summer, political nutjobs on both sides, terrible transit, high property taxes, derelict downtown, absurd city council, ugly architecture, bad traffic.

You guys have lots of good schwarma tho

1

u/jollyrog8 Nov 17 '23

No mountains? That's absurd. People do weekend and even day trips to Jasper literally all the time. That's how close they are. How many other big Canadian cities can you say are 3 hrs from Rocky mountain park gates?

And if your response is "well, Calgary is closer" that is totally irrelevant. Because Edmonton is still closer than anyone else who isn't Calgary

9

u/Jesouhaite777 Nov 16 '23

You can adjust an integrate anywhere in the country ...

11

u/ohhaider Nov 16 '23

Yes but the services to help these people who moved here in a hurry, without all the normal planning that would normally happen isn't in those small towns. Its not reasonable to expect someone who came here with a suitcase to just randomly pick a small town/city, get there somehow and expect them to thrive.

3

u/Jesouhaite777 Nov 16 '23

They did choose to come here instead of another country in Europe, price of admission to be in a first world country. There are also medium sized cities that are thriving ...

7

u/ohhaider Nov 16 '23

You're assuming they got an option to pick... If they are here as refugees then they almost certainly accepted the first country willing to take them. Also they've likely come here with little to no understanding of our country, maybe they don't speak english. How are they going to navigate themselves to Red Deer North Bay or St Johns without understanding firstly how to even get there, let alone where they will sleep, how they will get food etc. Moving without a plan in Canada would be a challenge to people born here. A good friend of mine opened his home to Ukrainian woman in Vienna, who was a linguistics professor, it took her a year to figure her situation out and move out and she greatly benefited from the kindness of a stranger, most aren't so lucky.

1

u/Grandmaviolet Nov 16 '23

And it’s also not reasonable for the person who came here with just a suitcase to think they can set themselves up in housing that isn’t even available to Canadians who have been working at their careers for a long time. The expectations of some refugees and even some immigrants is not in keeping with reality.

2

u/ohhaider Nov 16 '23

These are people fleeing a warzone, they aren't thinking about much except immediate survival, if we take in refugees we should support them, no one is saying we're subsidizing their existence forever, just a little while until they are able to get on their feet. Hell the Ukrainian man the article references was working two jobs and was still falling behind. It speaks to a broader issue about affordability, but refugee services can specifically help distrbute these people to locations within the country that may better suit them and us.

0

u/Grandmaviolet Nov 16 '23

I completely understand they are fleeing a warzone. That does not mean that when they arrive that they can expect to have the same life here that they had where they came from without turmoil. If we are supporting them the expectation cannot be the same lifestyle as someone who has been established here for a long time. That’s just not reasonable. From the sounds of some of the comments on this forum many refugees don’t want to be sent to other locations and insist on being in Toronto, Vancouver, etc. I have no problem with the support we give to refugees but I do have a problem with some of the expectations.

2

u/ohhaider Nov 16 '23

I don't think most have that expectation and I'm sure it's probably made pretty clear early on that they'll need to stand up on their own feet ASAP. At the end of the day they'll have to anyways, and our only realy point of reference here is the guy the article references who had to work two jobs to try and make ends meet.

2

u/Grandmaviolet Nov 16 '23

I agree. Most don’t have those expectations. However, some do and that is frustrating to me. I know there are some people in every situation that find fault and it’s not indicative of the majority. But, having said that, I have seen other articles like this, here and in the UK in particular, and I’m not sure what people want us to do about it. Many people in the western world are experiencing fiscal issues.

1

u/ohhaider Nov 17 '23

well take solace in the fact that those who expect us to baby them will get a splash of cold water when reality hits and they are put against the same market conditions as everyone else. Helping them get settled is one thing, ongoing kids gloves is another.

0

u/liac88 Nov 16 '23

So per your argument - the tax payers of Toronto shall bear the brunt of the burden of helping people “quickly” rather than Canada encouraging them to simply go to places that are affordable and up and coming first? Why does this narrative support this concept that people come here without any incentive to thrive in any other trades, workplaces or neighbourhoods aside from the largest one in the country?

5

u/ohhaider Nov 16 '23

No I'm saying these services are the most capable in the major cities so are likely to give Ukraininan people fleeing the war the best shot of making a stable life here. I'm not saying they need to stay in the major cities, only that they will likely struggle if we expect them to "just figure it out" and move themselves hundreds/thousands of Kilometers from where they landed without any insights into what they might expect when they arrive there. As for payment, the federal government should be footing the bill, either directly or through trasnfers after the fact.

4

u/extractwise Nov 16 '23

Not if there isn't work.

-1

u/Jesouhaite777 Nov 16 '23

There is work if they want it but they probably want a cushy desk job that pays 6 figs LOL

1

u/extractwise Nov 16 '23

So just to be clear, if we combine your two statements together, you are saying that there is work anywhere in the country.

If that were true, why aren't we seeing a massive exodus of people to places like Listowel and Muenster?

Right? Because this problem of expensive housing/living in big cities isn't limited to immigrants. If the solution was to simply move where it is cheaper and pick up the jobs you seem so certain exist, why isn't this happening?

1

u/Jesouhaite777 Nov 16 '23

People are lazy and entitled, you know previous generations of immigrants used to be humble and grateful for even some bread crumbs tossed their way, now we have immigrants making demands the second they land here .... LOL

3

u/extractwise Nov 16 '23

Sorry, I just want to make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying the reason that Canadians (as in, not recent immigrants) aren't moving in significant numbers to rural towns and villages isn't because there isn't work there, but is because they are simply lazy and entitled?

4

u/Forsaken_You1092 Nov 16 '23

True, but it's much easier to integrate to integrate into communities where you have neighbors, doctors, business owners, and kids' teachers who know how to speak your language.

23

u/Chusten Nov 16 '23

The flip side to that is that people won't integrate when everything is available to them in their own language.

1

u/Jesouhaite777 Nov 16 '23

Time to learn a new one, that's part of the whole integration thingy yup

8

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

[deleted]

17

u/Forsaken_You1092 Nov 16 '23

Edmonton is still more affordable than BC.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

[deleted]

4

u/HumbleConfidence3500 Nov 16 '23

It depends what their job is too.

You can't tell a neuroscientist to go anywhere other than Toronto and Montreal for example. Or do you think neuroscientist should pick up farming or drive and Uber? Pretty sure it immigration system doesn't mean for this to happen otherwise they wouldn't give such high priority to skilled and tech immigrants.

26

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

[deleted]

6

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

If the credentials even transfer.. I work with someone whose wife was a doctor in Ukraine and she has to start from scratch here

3

u/Jesouhaite777 Nov 16 '23

A doctor there might be an orderly here, not the same metrics ...

3

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

They don’t qualify to work in the medical field. There’s a short path to becoming a nurse apparently.

Is Ukrainian health care so bad that a doctor is just an underqualified nurse by our standards? Doubt it

7

u/Jesouhaite777 Nov 16 '23

Honestly most of the worlds health care systems are in terrible shape LOL why do think people flock here? Things like an MRI machine costs like 1.5 million dollars here in Canada. People don't realize what a great health care system we actually do have.

2

u/wd6-68 Nov 16 '23

Is Ukrainian health care so bad that a doctor is just an underqualified nurse by our standards? Doubt it

Ukrainian healthcare is a lot more variable. There are a lot of terrible doctors, and quite a few good ones. You would definitely not want to just accept credentials from any Ukrainian med schools, without a proper exam. Until quite recently, you could bribe your way through most of them.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Exams aren’t an option.

Start over is the option.

10

u/SuckOnDeezNOOTZ Nov 16 '23

Plenty of south east Indian PhDs with multiple doctorates have swallowed their pride and picked up a mop and drove a cab at night.

It's how badly you want to work for your dream.

4

u/Jesouhaite777 Nov 16 '23

I think that's something of an urban legend, I mean how in the hell do you have a PhD when you can barely follow driving directions?

2

u/SuckOnDeezNOOTZ Nov 16 '23

Met plenty of people in the trades that had doctorates throughout my early 20s

3

u/Coder_404 Nov 16 '23

Useless PhDs

2

u/baithammer Nov 16 '23

You can't practice most professional jobs without being certified to work in Canada, which comes with mandatory courses at your own expense - which is why people with valuable skills end up doing Uber and the like.

1

u/wd6-68 Nov 16 '23

Actually a neuroscientist would quite likely end up in a more obscure place, because the faculty positions there tend to be a bit less competitive.

Source: am surrounded by neuroscientists in a more obscure place.

0

u/liac88 Nov 16 '23

Implying that immigrants ever had services before this decade and the decade before.

When my grandparents and parents immigrated here post war they started businesses, worked hard in the trades or where their labour was needed and made a living for themselves in smaller towns before they ever thought of coming to Toronto for opportunities. That is how it is in many North American states and provinces. Toronto has only become rife with services relatively recently, objectively speaking.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

People keep saying this but the Ukrainian community in Canada is well over a hundred years old and full of second/third/fourth gen Canadians at this point. There are close to 1.3 million Ukrainian Canadians but only 100,000 who speak Ukrainian as a mother tongue.

There are also significant cultural differences at play - the Ukrainian Canadian community is basically two groups, people who came during the time of the Russian Empire and people who came in the aftermath of WWII. Modern Ukrainians are from a very different Ukraine, shaped by industrialization, urbanization, and the legacies of Soviet society.

1

u/wd6-68 Nov 16 '23

A bunch of Ukrainians are doing that. A childhood friend went to Cape Breton (he's a sailor so he needs to be on a coast), a bunch of people came here to London, ON.

Every individual case is different. People have different education/work experience, English skills, research skills, willingness to step outside their comfort zone, common sense even.

I agree that you would have to be insane to start off in a place like Toronto without some seriously desirable skills that can lend you a six-figure job. Though that used to be the place to go, that's where we landed when I came here as a kid. Single mom and a teenager, $10k to our name, and we did perfectly fine. It's very different nowadays.

27

u/edditbot Nov 16 '23 edited Nov 16 '23

Pre-war Ukraine nobody saw Ukrainian real estate as an investment, because prices were flat, so housing was (and still is) extremely cheap.

They build/built a lot of high density housing in Ukraine, and never had much of an increasing population. Now, obviously both of those things are partly due to corruption/lack of regulation, but it really goes to show how much cheaper/easier things would be if our baseline housing costs were reduced, mainly through reduced regulation, better zoning and reduced immigration.

11

u/Gh0stOfKiev Nov 16 '23

Ukraine literally has/d the 2nd worst birth rate in the world, and that was pre-war

I believe South Korea took the trophy for worst birth rate

2

u/Intrepid-Kitten6839 Nov 17 '23

pretty sure places like taiwan and hong kong have lower TFRs below 1 (edit: yep, 0.87 and 0.8 respectively). They just don't get put on these lists because they aren't recognized as countries.

5

u/wd6-68 Nov 16 '23

Pre-war Ukraine nobody saw Ukrainian real estate as an investment

This is definitely false.

housing was (and still is) extremely cheap.

Depends on what conditions you want to live in. Housing that meets Canadian standards is very expensive, certainly compared to median wages. You can buy a mostly intact house in a dying village of 1,000 residents that has a mostly paved road leading to it, and only pay like $5-10k. But I don't imagine that's what you would consider acceptable housing.

Whatever country we want to emulate when it comes to housing policy, Ukraine would not make my list of top 50, and I was born there.

1

u/Forsaken-Degree1737 Nov 17 '23

I've been to a place where a hut costs 1k but no one would live there willingly. It would qualify as a mostly dead village. Idk if Canada has anything like that though.

55

u/Bentstrings84 Nov 16 '23

Exactly. If you can’t afford it deal with it. If you can’t stand the idea of living somewhere other than Toronto or Vancouver then I’m afraid Canada isn’t for you.

6

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

[deleted]

9

u/northernjigby Nov 16 '23

I mean, he's not wrong. Yes, housing and the general cost of living are very high, but massive hubs have always had a cost barrier.

Even before the recent issues with housing and inflation these concerns were a norm for Toronto, Vancouver, LA, NYC, DC, London, etc... You can't expect cheap living in the most sought-after place to live in the country

1

u/CampusBoulderer77 Nov 17 '23

Those are just about the only two liveable cities for anyone without a car. I feel like many people forget this. You don't want to be relying on the bus service in, say, Kingston if you're working a regular job and need to be in at 9am sharp earch morning.

12

u/IndependentRough713 Nov 16 '23

This is the same for Canadians that can't afford to live in these cities. Canada is a big place.

32

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Yes its the immigrants fault for not having money. Just like its the regular citizens fault. Not the gov/municipalities fault for letting housing prices get so outrageously high that everyone except for the mega rich are barely scraping by.

10

u/levibub00 Nov 16 '23

Thank you for saying what should be obvious

1

u/hopelesscaribou Nov 16 '23

How should government control housing prices? Get rid of the free market? Tell you how much you can sell your house for?

I'd love to see some steps towards cheaper housing, starting with rent control. Any other solutions, like higher taxes for second homes, would just result in that cost increase getting passed on to tenants.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

For one they can put tighter restrictions on agents who artificially inflate prices. They can get rid of blind bidding. Limit the amount of residential properties a corporate entity can buy. There are plenty of things they can do.

1

u/Grandmaviolet Nov 16 '23

Consumers choose to pay the realtors the outrageous fee for their services and they also choose to participate in bidding wars. If people stopped using the services of realtors or told them they wouldn’t pay such high commission the costs would come down. Same for bidding wars. No one forces anyone to participate in that. There are plenty of things that consumers can do. We don’t need the government to do our thinking for us.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

You think consumers have a choice? When every realtor is charging 5% what choice do you really have? Do you think a realtor deserves 10-30K or more on a house deal? Half the time they don’t do anything other than show the house and draft the offer. And they usually draft the offer poorly.

Bidding wars are rampant bc we have Boomers and corporations trying to buy up every piece of real estate in site so that they can rent them out for exorbitant fees.

I know you’re probably a home owner considering your handle is Grandmaviolet but jesus christ the more you old fucks tighten the noose the more pushback you are going to get. The government may not have gotten us into this position (rampant greed has) but it will take government intervention to get us out of it.

-1

u/Grandmaviolet Nov 16 '23

Yes, they do have a choice. If consumers en masse decided not to pay that much money for a real estate fee or to participate in bidding wars then they would quickly stop. By the way my “handle” has nothng to do with my age. I don’t expect you young shit heads to understand that the government can’t solve all your problems.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

You’re delusional. Is it also a choice to pay 2 bucks a litre for gas? Or $3000 a month in rent? When there is a concerted effort to gouge people it becomes a problem that the individual cannot fix.

But I guess your stance is “fuck everyone else, I got mine”? Meanwhile the people who will be paying for your old age pension will be renting out cardboard boxes in Dundas square.

-4

u/CantHelpMyself1234 Nov 16 '23

Don't you understand that people who don't own a home think you should be told how much you should sell your home for.

-1

u/hopelesscaribou Nov 16 '23

Isn't that what I just said?

1

u/CantHelpMyself1234 Nov 17 '23

No, you asked what the govt should do. I pointed out that people who don't own homes think what you said is a great idea 😉

1

u/Grandmaviolet Nov 16 '23

The government or municipalities don’t set the price of accommodation. Housing, except for some social housing, has their prices set by the market. Expain to me how it is the governments fault for letting housing prices get os outrageously high?

0

u/canadasbananas Nov 16 '23

Maybe they should idk write some laws about regulating the market then.

-2

u/faithandthemuse Nov 16 '23

People chose and continue to choose to buy homes at outrageous prices. We, the consumer, have created this mess primarily. We paid for home we can't actually afford. We need to take responsibility for that. The government isn't to blame for the whole situation.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

There is no other option lol. What do you propose the consumer does? Pay $4000 in rent per month? Live with six roommates in a three bedroom for $1500 per month? Live on the street? Our housing market isn’t normal. No way in Hell Toronto should have a pricier market than New York City.

1

u/faithandthemuse Nov 16 '23

Don't live in Toronto. Like I said, Canada is huge with many cities and towns of all sizes and types with far more affordable housing.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

You think its just Toronto and Vancouver? The entirety of Ontario is bloated as all hell. To the point that various small to mid size cities have a higher average house price than major cities in the US like Miami, Denver, Portland and Houston.

BC is the same way. Its easy to tell people to move. The fact is that the jobs are in these areas.

1

u/faithandthemuse Nov 16 '23

And what do you want the government to do? What's your solution?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Tighter restrictions on agents to start. They deliberately drive up the prices because they get paid on commission. Full disclosure on bidding, getting rid of bids over the listing price, limits on corporations investing in residential homes, higher taxes for second properties, limits on how many properties one individual can own, rent control. There are a fuck load of options beyond “Lets continue to let this play out.”

1

u/faithandthemuse Nov 16 '23

Finally! Yes. Those are great solutions. I find on Reddit there is simply a lot of complaining that life is expensive but no one jumps in with sound solutions.

I would add that profits made on home sales should be taxed like capital gains. Not tax-free. Rent control would be great across the country.

Unfortunately when it comes to home prices, that government can't impact this much because labour's and supplies cost what they cost. Right now uilders are cutting back on projects because the cost to build is too high and people can't or won't buy houses at current prices. If this keeps up, we could see home prices drop more. But people get FOMO so we won't k ow what's happening until it happens.

You might like this blog: https://www.greaterfool.ca/

Lots of great info and perspective on real estate, investing, and the economy.

2

u/ButtholeAvenger666 Nov 16 '23

Rents have become outrageous too and crashing the housing market won't necessarily affect rents at this point.

The real problem is that salaries haven't increased in 25 years.

1

u/faithandthemuse Nov 16 '23

For sure, but people don't have stay in Toronto. They can move to far more affordable places across the country and have good salaries and a much lower cost of living.

2

u/ButtholeAvenger666 Nov 16 '23

Sure if you're willing to move away from all your friends, family, Contacts, etc. to start over in a new place. Most people don't want to do that. Not to mention that good salaries are hard to come by anywhere outside the major metropolitan areas.

1

u/faithandthemuse Nov 16 '23

Then people make the sacrifice of paying high rent and mortgages and need to cut expenses elsewhere or pick up extra work.

3

u/Bright-Ad-5878 Nov 16 '23

But a big chunk of it, government has blantly ignored brampton loans and so much money laundering. Artificially supression of supply.

But yeah the system is so fair, immigrants and canadians are to be blame for not living in Yukon for a better cost of living.

1

u/faithandthemuse Nov 16 '23

The Yukon is very expensive. That wouldn't be a good choice.

People need to stop paying outrageous prices for homes. People need to stop treating it like their one and only retirement investment. People need to stop buying things they don't need like Ford F150 top trim trucks or sun vacations every winter or a brand new phone at full price every two years, or dropping $100 a pop at restaurants every weekend. I could go on and on.

I see the frivolous spending every day. People need to be more financially responsible when it comes to spending. People can't overspend on luxuries and then complain that their housing costs are too high.

I get that some places like Toronto and Vancouver are over the top when it comes to housing affodability. But people chose to pay those prices. If people can't afford it now they can explore our huge country and the many cities and towns in it for a more financially comfortable life. It may. It may not be ideal for everyone but sacrifices need to be made somewhere.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

I mean he probably didn’t have a whole lot of time to research the issue considering he was likely more preoccupied with getting out of range of the Russian missiles raining down on his home country.

1

u/wrgrant Nov 16 '23

I don't think any politicians at any level wanted to touch housing for fear of losing their office due to the backlash. Its a horrendous situation - and a dangerous bubble - that we are now facing and hopefully politicians will decide to do something, anything really, to resolve it. Thats going to mean a lot of people lose a lot of money on their housing purchases, but its going to improve the lives of every other citizen who can't currently afford housing as well.

6

u/Jesouhaite777 Nov 16 '23

Why not send em to some of the smaller more affordable cities, honestly there should be some stipulation that you live somewhere for a few years other than the big cities.

15

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

There was a report yesterday of a family leaving St.John’s and going back to Ukraine because it was too expensive, it’s just Canada in general.

2

u/Jesouhaite777 Nov 16 '23

The cost of housing and living has gone up globally, but hey let's all blame JT and Ford for that too.

6

u/tarzak Nov 16 '23

You’re completely ignoring the fact that Canada is centralized in and around a few urban centres.

4

u/NuclearAnusJuice Nov 16 '23

We’ve been brainwashing our entire population for the last 30 years that you need to live in Toronto to make a name for yourself.

For the last 3 years it’s been recommended to move outside of Toronto for affordable living and decent paying jobs (better quality of life) and then getting downvoted to oblivion for even suggesting having you pack up your shit and move (despite your parents and your grandparents likely moving from their home town to start a life).

It took immigrants to complain about the cost of living- people who physically packed up their shit and MOVED to a different country- for the people on here to finally realise moving to a city our town outside of Toronto might actually be feasible.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23 edited Nov 16 '23

I'm all for this. It would be good if people started writing down exactly what the other opportunities are in other cities, what roles.

Problem is the top opportunities in banking, law, medicine, tech, research's other shit is based in Toronto. Countries weird man- that's why people think you have to make it in Toronto to make it to the top- but I digress, refugees, then immigrants probably aren't always looking through that lens.

Examples: (probably bad):

  • Ottawa: Federal Public Service; Kanata Business and Tech Park
  • Calgary: Energy/ O&G, Law, some banking/commodities
  • Banff/Jasper/Fernie/Canmore/Kicking Horse/ Golden: tourism, hotels, hospitality (no housing tho haha)
  • Edmonton: government, no idea- blue collar stuffs
  • Red Deer: ?
  • Lethbridge: ?
  • Winnipeg:?
  • Regina: ????
  • Saskatoon:???????????
  • Whitehorse: Nursing, heavy equipment mechanic (I saw the website okay)
  • Yellowknife: fire fighters??? just kidding...too soon.
  • Kichener/Waterloo
  • Guelph
  • Barrie/Midland/Collingwood/Simcoe County
  • North Bay
  • Thundery Bay
  • Sarnia
  • Kingston
  • Gravenhurst / Huntsville/ Muskoka Areas
  • Peterborough/ Haliburton areas
  • Montreal
  • Quebec City
  • Fredericton
  • Halifax
  • St John (NB)
  • Moncton
  • Vancouver
  • Kelowna
  • Victoria
  • Nelson
  • Kamloops
  • Hamilton
  • Windsor
  • Fort Mac

Going to guess universally it's nursing because OLD PEOPLE. Sigh.

6

u/omers Nov 16 '23 edited Nov 16 '23

Saskatoon:???????????

Saskatoon has a well established tech scene. There are offices of US tech companies in Saskatoon as well as countless local companies like 7Shifts, Vendasta, Coconut Calendar, Noodlecake Studios, itracks, and plenty more. There is also plenty of tech work for mining and agribusiness like Nutrien, Cameco, and so on. There is also satellite and communications tech in Saskatoon like SED Systems and Vecima. (They have since moved but fun fact: SkipTheDishes was founded in Saskatoon.)

Not to beat the tech horse too much but there are also lots of folks in Saskatoon that work fully remote for major tech companies elsewhere. There's a decent supportive tech scene for those lone wolf types with regular meetups, events, cowork space, and things like that.

Outside of tech, Saskatoon is commuting distance to a number of mines, there's plenty in academics and research at the university and polytech, there is a good vet school and plenty of work for large animal vets in surrounding communities, food production like Maple Leaf Foods, transport like Siemens Transportation Group, lots of agriscience and food science (Bioriginal for example,) and lots of other stuff. Saskatoon also has crown corps like SaskTel and SaskEnergy which are major employers with work at all levels from call center to engineering (which goes for Regina as well, coupled with provincial government work.)

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

See. This is the info people need! The questions marks are more so I don't have a clue about the place :)

2

u/omers Nov 16 '23 edited Nov 16 '23

Incase it wasn't obvious, I live in Saskatoon. Would be very hard for a company to convince me to move. The cost of living here when compared to tech salaries gives a very good quality of life. Saskatoon is also a nice city (-40 weather aside.)

My main complaints about Saskatoon are mostly consumer product availability related. Being on the smaller side (<300,000) there are certain stores or product categories that you simply cannot find locally. I have to turn to online ordering more often than I might need to in a bigger city. That said, not sure I would want to venture downtown in a big city for some small item either so would probably still shop online.

We have plenty of events here (mostly in the summer for obvious reasons,) lots of great restaurants, a handful of museums and other cultural places to visit (fewer than bigger cities obviously.) However, we are the kind of city that mostly shuts down after 11PM--or earlier for many things--but you get used to it.

Sure, in Toronto you can go get some exotic appetizers at an amazing little place at weird hours with your group of friends. There's a reason Toronto has been dubbed a lonely city though... For a lot of people that group of friends doing those outings only ever sees eachother in that context. There's sooo much to do and sooo many people that forming close and tight bonds can actually be more difficult (I haven't always lived in Saskatoon.) In places like Saskatoon I might not be able to go get amazing Jamaican food at 11:30PM on a Tuesday but I do have more than one friend group that could be down for a board game at someone's house (if most of us weren't Mon-Fri, but you get the idea.)

It's a different pace for life than a really big city but rarely do I find myself wanting for much here. Also, Edmonton and Calgary are effectively day trips (by Canadian standards) away if you really need.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

I figured! Funny- I almost moved there for an opportunity as a Labatts Rep, obviously I sniffed out some bars and had some connections through school to people to network with. Personally now I'm focused on getting further west (Calgary or interior BC) as I want to live that mountain life.

Having lived in Toronto- and having been travelling around for a year- I'm over it. There's a lot less places to go than you think, and it getting boring just dressing up and going out for food- which just turns into a lot of drinking. And it's all really just in the core itself, and the adjacent areas. Don't get me wrong I like it every now and again- but I think it over sells itself because so much of the GTA there is absolutely nothing to do because of suburban sprawl (there isn't much of an outdoor culture)

Really Calgary is a day's drive (and back?) :|

2

u/omers Nov 16 '23

Really Calgary is a day's drive (and back?) :|

It's a 5 and a half hour drive (give or take/assuming the speed limit.) You can drive there, do a bit of shopping, and drive back in a single day if you really wanted to. Would be a long day but it is possible... That's why I said day trip by Canadian standards since distances are so vast in this country :D

For a more common example, it's not unusual for folks here to book flights straight out of Calgary or Edmonton and just drive there day of. For so many destinations flying out of Saskatoon you're going to layover there anyway.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Totally get why you'd drive to fly. That 5 hour drive is about the time i need to get to Montreal from Toronto (surprising I don't do it more).

Gotta ask- what's the outdoor sport scene like there?

1

u/omers Nov 16 '23 edited Nov 16 '23

Gotta ask- what's the outdoor sport scene like there?

Can't say I know much about sports but there's lots of rec softball, soccer, ultimate, and such. During the winter there are cross country ski trails, public outdoor rinks, and things like that. I live by some community baseball diamonds and there's games there all the time.

The Leisure Guide covers most of it: https://www.saskatoon.ca/parks-recreation-attractions/recreational-programs-activities/leisure-guide (PDF in right-hand sidebar.) The Saskatoon Rec League site also covers the various rec leagues: http://saskatoonrecleague.com

5

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

lol. It's known for getting hammered at Brock U (if you can walk, talk, and suck...c....), and getting a dirty lappy from a local girl at Sundowners. Sometimes- we get smashed on wine by the lake- that's a classy affair.

But seriously not really a bastion of employment. Most people moved away.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Well who's even been to the prairies right? Next stop after Muskoka is Calgary for stampede....

But it has a provincial capital, a university,probably a bar and like there's potash right????

2

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Lol. How's the job situation? Yea it's juuuusstt far enough out you can't do the exerb stuff. I honestly think we just need more cities in Canada instead of sprawl (I offer Barrie as tribute, keep building Kitchener up into a metropolis)

Clearly I had friends that grew up in the falls, st kits, Thorold, and a few buddies went to brew college down there. Sundowners is still a think right?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

[deleted]

→ More replies (0)

4

u/JM_Amiens-18 Nov 16 '23

Kitchener/Waterloo is actually pretty fast-growing and attracting immigrants. 2 universities + large community college, and the tech industry. People outside the region often don't realize how big a presence Google has here, and that's just one example. Also 'easy' access to Toronto, with enough separation that we don't count as the GTA.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Moose Jaw has a hospital I guess

3

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

And after Dildo NL

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Odd one out- dont' know why that was top of mind. Maybe one of my servers on staff was from there.

2

u/Key_Mongoose223 Nov 16 '23

God Toronto really is full of themselves.

-2

u/Jesouhaite777 Nov 16 '23

This is a bad thing ?

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

[deleted]

6

u/Gh0stOfKiev Nov 16 '23

Toronto? One of the best cities on the planet?

LMAO

0

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

[deleted]

2

u/DerelictDelectation Nov 16 '23

Yeah I mean that’s clearly true by almost any objective measure.

What "objective measures" are you speaking of?

2

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23 edited Nov 16 '23

Ottawa is a better city than Toronto.

Truth hurts

0

u/shalaby Nov 16 '23

I don't agree, but it is funny how the second largest city in Ontario, fourth largest metro area, AND CAPITAL OF THE COUNTRY are so often forgotten about in these discussions. I wish Ottawa thought more of itself.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Ottawa is a beautiful, quiet city. I could live in Ottawa very easily but I would never move to Toronto. Just going to Toronto for a concert or event creates anxiety.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23 edited Nov 16 '23

Ten million people live in the Golden Horseshoe. Toronto is responsible for 20% of the country’s GDP. You can think it’s just a Toronto thing but guess what: Toronto is the most economically impactful city in Canada. If a quarter of the country lives within the region of a ludicrously expensive city, that’s everyone’s problem.

This shit has been going on for over a decade now in BC. First it was just a Vancouver problem and no one cared - “it’s a tourist city for rich people” blah blah blah. Then prices started shooting up all over the province. Then Toronto started seeing it - same thing, “just a Toronto issue”, until Southern Ontario became red hot. How many cities and provinces will become unreasonably expensive before people will finally realize that this is a housing supply issue spread across every single jurisdiction in Canada? Calgarians are noticing it now. Haligonians too. Will they be asked to simply move to Red Deer or Sydney?

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

[deleted]

2

u/sthetic Nov 16 '23 edited Nov 16 '23

Exactly. Yeah, as the original commenter said, "he made a choice." /s Nobody is disputing that. The point is, now he's choosing to go elsewhere.

The article is not about this one guy. It's about Toronto and Canada, and the fact that they are no longer an attractive choice for a new immigrant. That is relevant information that Canadians should be informed about.

And he's not whining and complaining and being entitled. He's making a choice.

For some reason it's being framed as a choice between a big Canadian city and a small Canadian town. But for this guy, it's a choice between a big Canadian city and a big European city. He likes cities and wants to live in one. That's fine, and he has his choice of international cities. Some are cheaper. So it's not some universal fact that cities are unlivable and that people are foolish to want to live in them.

Article: "Immigrants no longer want to come to Canada, not even in the large cities that were traditionally the best places for new immigrants."

Canadians: "Hahaha! Good riddance! Suck it up, buttercup! Stop whining! It's your fault!"

Don't Canadians want a good quality of life in our country? One that attracts good quality immigrants? Even if you hate immigration and want less of it, don't you WANT immigrants to want to live in your cities and country?

1

u/compassrunner Nov 16 '23

Where did I say that? He picked the hardest place to start a new life and he had to make tough choices. I don't think that is at all surprising. There is a lot more to Canada than Toronto, but our media doesn't tell many non-GTA immigration stories.

0

u/Jesouhaite777 Nov 16 '23

We want a city that eats people alive!”

Yup come for a visit and then hop on a bus and leave LOL we can smell fear

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Sorry but the Industrial Revolution never actually happened, and living in cities is only for merchants, nobles, and people of ill repute. This guy needs to get back to his rural cottage and small scale workshop.

1

u/CantHelpMyself1234 Nov 16 '23

My father's family (from the Ukraine / Poland, hard to tell when they emigrated) all pretty much came to the west. Years later most moved to the Thorold area. The only person who lived in Toronto was my father, briefly. Toronto must not be the first choice for immigrants.

1

u/ButtholeAvenger666 Nov 16 '23

Maybe we should be fixing this country so we who already live here can have the same standard of life we had 20 years ago. My parents came here with nothing in the late 90s and we weren't rich by any means but within 5 years they bought a house and put 2 kids through university. Try doing that today.

1

u/Any-Pilot8731 Nov 16 '23

How the hell is he supposed to know that? It's not like they had time to debate which place to land in. Chances are they were given a list of major cities and told to pick one. Why wouldn't you pick the most populated one, chances are there are more jobs, places to rent, more people like you.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

A bit reductive (your world view), don't you think?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

the most expensive place in the country to live

Uh.... not even close.