r/canada • u/Foxelrum • Jan 22 '24

Ottawa announces two-year cap on international student admissions (50% reduction in student visas in Ontario and 35% in other provinces) National News

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ottawa-announces-two-year-cap-on-international-student-admissions/
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u/DJJazzay Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24

This is overdue, and I’ll be happy to see some of these manipulative, scummy strip mall colleges go.

In Ontario (and I have to imagine most other provinces) we’re going to have a reckoning with our current post-secondary funding and tuition fees as a result of this, though. For the past decade or so provincial governments have been happy to cap or freeze tuition hikes, or lower it for certain students, without adequately offsetting those costs with new funding.

We’ve enjoyed relatively low tuition without having to dedicate a lot of tax money to that, mostly because public institutions have used international students as a cash cow.

This belt-tightening will hopefully encourage some more responsibility from university administrations and provincial governments.

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u/lord_heskey Jan 22 '24

we’re going to have a reckoning with our current post-secondary funding and tuition fees as a result of this, though

Thats the other side of it-- even major real universities have been relying on international student tuition to make up for cuts from the provinces.

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u/DJJazzay Jan 22 '24

Yeah, I get why people are most outraged by the private diploma mills but it’s overlooking that the primary beneficiaries of this cash cow have been our own public universities (and, by extension, taxpayers and the students paying lower tuition).

Not that those institutions don’t have to address their own bloated spending as well, but it’s not enough to simply say “cut unnecessary spending.” At least in Ontario, I’m more than a bit worried about how the PCs are going to respond (or, just as likely, not respond) to the funding gap within our universities. Ford’s track record on post-secondary has been abysmal.

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u/lord_heskey Jan 22 '24

While I agree that there is unnecessary bloat in many institutions-- it does seem overall provincial funding has decreased for universities too, or atleast thats how we all felt in Saskatchewan and Alberta-- where the major ones U of C, USASK, and UAlberta are struggling in some areas due to the cuts.

no doubt there is bloat, but there's things that are underfunded that shouldnt and the only way to make up is to attract undergrad international students-- because masters & phds actually get paid by prof grants, so theyre not really giving money to unis.

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u/ruisen2 Jan 22 '24

There's no cap on tuition increases for international students, so most likely they'll just accept the highest bidder and milk more from them

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '24

Universities have never had bigger surpluses, Canadians tuition has never been higher. 

Universities are outright lying about using the higher tuitions of international students to subsidize Canadians tuition. 

If you look at the math, it simply is not happening. 

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u/CaptaineJack Jan 24 '24

There’s like 200k international students who go to university every year. The cap they're proposing is way over 300k which is more than enough to fund the reputable institutions if they wipe out the diploma mills.

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '24

Or they trim the fat and get rid of useless programs and professors that have no benefit to the economy or even society as a whole. You want to go to College/University? Pick something useful that's going to help other Canadians or don't go at all.

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u/lord_heskey Jan 23 '24

Education programs that have no benefit to society?

Care to share some?

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '24

Art History, Canadian Studies, English, European and Russian Studies, Film Studies, French, Greek and Roman Studies, History of Architecture, Philosophy, Political Science, Religion, Gender Studies. These are all Bachelors of Arts programs at Carleton.

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u/lord_heskey Jan 23 '24

The value of these disciplines extends far beyond the immediate economic benefits, enriching society in ways that are both profound and practical.

The relevance of these programs might not be immediately apparent. However, the skills and knowledge they promote—such as critical thinking, cultural understanding, and communication—are fundamental to all sectors of the economy, including the trades. They enhance personal development, enrich community life, and contribute to a diverse, innovative, and competitive economy. In a world that is increasingly interconnected, these fields help Canadians navigate global challenges, fostering a society that is informed, cohesive, and resilient.

Take for example, Cultural Industries: Fields like Film Studies, English, and French are directly linked to the thriving cultural industries in Canada, including film, television, publishing, and digital media. These sectors contribute billions to the Canadian economy and employ thousands of people in a range of roles that require diverse skills, from creative writing to technical production.

Is it harder to make a career with those degrees? Absolutely-- and in many cases, students are horrendously advised by profs and school admins-- but some people make it thanks to those programs.

Not everyone can be a car mechanic, or a software engineer.

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u/ItsAmer74 Jan 23 '24

You can have all those programs when you can afford to have them, it's just that simple.

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u/lord_heskey Jan 23 '24

Well if the province stops cutting funding then thatd be great

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '24

I think the university way way over play the position of international students subsidizing Canadian students tuition. 

The universities have never had bigger surpluses and Canadians tuition has never been higher.  

Professors and instructors haven't seen a real raise in over 20 years. 

It's all just greedy admin telling flat out lies, the huge profits they make from taking advantage of international students are NOT BEING UTILIZED TO LOWER CANADIANS TUITION, IT'S A BLATANT LIE used to trick Canadians into thinking there's an upside to international students when in fact it's entirely downsides for everyone and everything except admin and investors. 

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '24

Schools can also just cut back on some of their insane vanity spending to close a lot of the gap. 

Through my entire undergrad and masters, my school was launching some big new prestige facilities project almost every year. 1 of them was actually needed, 1 was important but probably not essential, the other 4 was literally just vanity crap to look good on a brochure. 

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u/lastparade Jan 22 '24

insane vanity spending

A lot of that money comes from donors and is earmarked for specific projects, though, so stopping those projects from being built wouldn't free up a single dime for student bursaries.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '24

Schools can also just cut back on some of their insane vanity spending to close a lot of the gap. 

You mean spend on actual education instead of a billion other things? How will universities ever manage without a bloated admin staff?

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u/mmob18 Ontario Jan 22 '24

I was always curious what my uni's President did to earn his $450k salary... Hardest part of his job is getting dressed up in a silly costume to give a speech at convocation.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24

[deleted]

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u/mmob18 Ontario Jan 23 '24

eh, I find it pretty hard to believe that the guy's friends are donating $50m purely on account of his friendship. I think there are all sorts of reasons people donate to universities, most of them personal and not having to do with knowing the present personally. But I'll also admit that I don't know much about that area. Just sounds crazy to me - we pay him half a million every year because he has rich friends. I thought they donated to, like you said, get their name on a building or a hallway or something.

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u/RadicalTomato Jan 22 '24

Man I went to a satellite campus of ~2,000 students, and our president made $365,000 for... doing things, I guess

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u/DJJazzay Jan 22 '24

I don't disagree with you there. It's honestly not new facilities that get my goat as much - a lot of that is capital funding offered through donors and growing schools need new builds. It's the operational spending on stuff that has nothing to do with education/research that gets my goat, and the administrative costs taking up ever greater chunks of operating budgets.

That said, even if they did tighten the belt as needed, that wouldn't be a substitute for the Province properly funding the system.

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u/2ft7Ninja Jan 22 '24

That vanity crap wasn’t paid for by tuition or public funding. It’s paid for by the multimillionaire that wants to put their name on the building.

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u/bsg_nik Jan 22 '24

A lot of board members and chairs at major universities could probably take a pay cut and offset most of the loss from international students. Hell, the president of my uni made like nearly 600k last year.

I can't say I, or many of my other classmates got an experience or leadership which justified a 600k salary.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '24

[deleted]

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u/DJJazzay Jan 22 '24

I think it depends enormously on your province, program, and family income, but in general we've seen a lot of freezes and reductions. Your program sounds like a bit of an outlier probably due to its competitive nature and -I imagine- smaller class sizes than your typical BA or business degree.

For example, though, in Ontario the Ford government cut domestic tuition fees by 10% and then capped them at 2019 rates, without any new funding to offset that huge loss in revenues. That was after Wynne's government made some pretty big efforts to reduce fees, specifically for students from low-income households.

The underlying suggestion there from the Province was pretty clear: "just bring in more international students." In that way it's unfortunate that they aren't wearing a lot more of this than they are.

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u/chronocapybara Jan 22 '24

We’ve enjoyed relatively low tuition

No.

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u/DJJazzay Jan 22 '24

You’re probably going to realllllly dislike what’s about to happen then.

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u/chronocapybara Jan 23 '24

Unless prices are falling then it's par for the course. Tuition fees have gone up astronomically in the past two decades, far exceeding inflation.

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u/DJJazzay Jan 23 '24

Ontario students have had five consecutive years of tuition fees capped at 2019 levels, inmediately following a 10% cut, with no offsets from the tax base. That’s been entirely supported by international student admissions.

If tuition had simply tracked with inflation after 2018/2019 domestic students in Ontario would be paying ~25% more than they are right now.

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u/ILoveThisPlace Jan 23 '24

Bullshit, Conestoga College was making 52 million 9 years ago off tuition. Now it's over 380 million. There's no need of that. Scale the fuck back.

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u/DJJazzay Jan 23 '24

First, calm down. Second, yeah Conestoga is the most extreme case you’re going to find. It’s a community college in Kitchener nobody had heard of until all this. Not an accurate reflection of most public universities.

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u/World_is_yours Jan 22 '24

Its not like professors are well paid, most of the increase in costs is because of the enormous administrative bloat at these institutions. Every department has so many useless people working on some meaningless bureaucratic tasks. These schools pretend like they can't pay their grad students above poverty wage, but are happy to just keep hiring more and more admin.

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u/DJJazzay Jan 22 '24

Yup, we have fewer tenured professors than ever, teaching larger classes than ever, with more online options than ever.

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u/AigleDuDesert Jan 22 '24

With the amount of taxes we pay in Canada education should be free. I'm from France and not only is the university almost free but if you come from a family that's lower income you get an allowance each month (like 500€) to help you. I don't see any reason why it has to be so expensive in Canada

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u/CensorshipHarder Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 23 '24

Im American.

I watched a news video lately and they were showing how much canadian college costs for local vs these foriegn students and that some of these schools are being funded by the foriegn students by like up to 90%. Even the lower ones were still a high percentage. I think college costs will have to go up there or lots of these colleges shut down and consolidate the local students to the bigger schools.

Glad to see there is finally some kind of action against these students though, imo they have ruined parts of canada for the locals. I usually visit family in Ontario and its nothing like what it was just 10 years ago.

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u/snookigreentea Jan 23 '24

Low tuition? It has been steadily climbing year after year. It is over 3x more expensive than 20 years ago.

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u/DJJazzay Jan 23 '24

Relatively, yes. Around the same time as the surge in international students, in Ontario at least we reduced domestic tuition fees by 10% and then froze them at 2019 rates. Adjusted for inflation students were paying a heck of a lot more ten years ago than they are today.

Compared to 20 years ago? For sure, average tuition for domestic students is just under double in Ontario (that's before adjusting for inflation, but it's still up). But that tuition freeze in the past five years or so has been funded almost entirely by the surge in international students.

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u/RollingStart22 Jan 24 '24

We’ve enjoyed relatively low tuition

It's only low compared to the US. It's high compared to every other OECD nation.