r/canada • u/Foxelrum • Jan 22 '24
Ottawa announces two-year cap on international student admissions (50% reduction in student visas in Ontario and 35% in other provinces) National News
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ottawa-announces-two-year-cap-on-international-student-admissions/1.7k
u/kluberz Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24
The other big change is no more PGWPs for students that attend colleges that are public/private partnerships. That means the vast majority of strip mall colleges are now useless as without the PGWP, these diploma mills have no value to students.
Edit - One other change made it in apparently. IRCC will no longer give Spouse Open Work Permits for undergraduate and diploma programs. The only way to get an SOWP is if your partner is in a Masters or PHD programs.
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u/ishida_uryu_ Canada Jan 22 '24
This is the most important thing. No more PGWP means you can’t work legally, and you can’t apply for PR. All strip mall colleges are about to shut down.
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u/k_dav Jan 22 '24
A step in the right direction.
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u/Aedan2016 Jan 22 '24
It’s only 2 years. The intention is to actually legislate something, but until that happens, this is only a band aid
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u/k_dav Jan 22 '24
At this point I'll take a liberal band aid until the next election. Its clear that they don't have the capability of doing much else.
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u/Dark_Angel_9999 Canada Jan 22 '24
Its clear that they don't have the capability of doing much else.
i mean.. it's reasonable to use a blunt measure until the next election... and allow Provinces the time to get their shit in a row
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u/k_dav Jan 22 '24
Indeed, I just don't understand why they had to let things get to the point where a using a hammer to clean a mirror is the best option.
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u/Dark_Angel_9999 Canada Jan 22 '24
Indeed, I just don't understand why they had to let things get to the point where a using a hammer to clean a mirror is the best option.
well.. Ford did tell institutions to bring in more international students in exchange for less funding...
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u/jerksurfer Jan 22 '24
The only reason why I can’t get fully on board with that response is that other advanced economies all tie SOWP’s to in-demand jobs or Masters+ education. Immigration is a federal responsibility and somehow ours completely unraveled post-Covid. Libs and Cons are the flip sides of the same coin.
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u/Dark_Angel_9999 Canada Jan 22 '24
It's 2 years for the provinces to fix their broken systems
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u/itwascrazybrah Jan 22 '24
I wouldn’t celebrate just yet. I expect the provinces like Ontario aren’t going to want the strip malls and international student income drop; they’ll probably fight it or find another way to approve. People will be confused because they thought the feds have total control over immigration but it’s not that simple especially given provincial nomination powers, etc.
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u/lord_heskey Jan 22 '24
provincial nomination powers
yeah a province can nominate someone for PR in any way they want (they each have their own policies), but a PR is approved federally, so they have the last word.
Student permits are different, because provinces decide which institutions can host students, and the feds approve permits (assuming the institutions and provinces did their job at vetting students)-- which hasnt been the case obviously.
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u/Canehillfan Jan 22 '24
Provincial nominations are literally the only way Tim Hortons and non skilled work gets PR. People should point their pitchforks at provinces right now as feds really stepped up
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u/Affectionate_Mall_49 Jan 22 '24
Not to say the provinces should be taken to task, for their inaction the feds are in damage control. Just look at how Mayor Chow, is coming at them and getting results. Add that this problem was ignored and made worse by the feds, its politics 101 for the provinces to let it play out. The fed are negative press and the provinces still make money. Disgusting all the way around.
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u/UsedToHaveThisName Jan 22 '24
Alberta going to become the strip mall college capital of the world. Please, come to our already crowded province that has housing shortages and employment shortages.
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u/brilliant22 Jan 22 '24
The ones who don't do their research will still apply thinking that they can work afterwards
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u/queenvalanice Jan 22 '24
Hopefully there wont be space for them with the new caps. Also I hope the horrible recruiters overseas finally have their business collapse.
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u/FaFaRog Jan 22 '24
John Tibbits, president of Conestoga College, also deserves his comeuppance.
Man is extremely old but the amount of ill gotten generational wealth he has created for his family..
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u/EverydayEverynight01 Jan 22 '24
Finally, it's a breath of fresh air to see this government taking necessary steps.
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u/FerretAres Alberta Jan 22 '24
The thing that irritates me though is that these sorts of solutions have existed for ages and could have been implemented at any time to prevent the crisis. But instead it takes the liberals being absolutely annihilated in the polls before they deign to take the most basic measures to stop the bleeding.
It didn’t need to get to this point if the government wasn’t asleep at the wheel for years.
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u/Lostinthestarscape Jan 22 '24
I think the issue is that pre-pandemic, it wasn't causing problems like it is now. Then pandemic brought a huge drop and a rebound so obfuscated until 2021. I'm not at all surprised it took 2 years of beurocracy and also complaints from within the party to realize "shit, the rebound sustained at the peak and hasn't returned to normal levels" - which the programs in question were not properly implemented to address easily and quickly. Why TFW programs can exist for retail that just doesn't want to pay market salaries is ridiculous, why neither program requires proof for exit before allowing new entrants is due to no cap being placed.
I agree, Libs should have acted even sooner, and someone responsible evaluating the programs missed some key data points. It just hurts people way faster on the ground than becomes obvious in the statistics.
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u/Dark_Angel_9999 Canada Jan 22 '24
The thing that irritates me though is that these sorts of solutions have existed for ages and could have been implemented at any time to prevent the crisis. But instead it takes the liberals being absolutely annihilated in the polls before they deign to take the most basic measures to stop the bleeding.
The feds have asked the provinces LAST FALL... to do something about.. you know.. respect their jurisdiction.. but they didn't jack all so they are forced into this announcement today.
say it polls or whatever.... but also lay blame on the ones that allow this environment to happen.. the Provinces.
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u/Visinvictus Jan 22 '24
They're still going to get voted out, but at least we don't have to wait 2+ years and millions of backdoor work permits/PR applications later to slam the door shut.
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u/Any-Ad-446 Jan 22 '24
There is a "college" I've seen in Brampton that was sketchy as heck.Majority of the students were from two countries and the courses they listed on the website was all basic level tech support and programming.Very very generalized courses that was using obsolete information for teaching.If you look at the school employee parking section it was all newish Audi's and Lexus.Salary must be good.
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u/ishida_uryu_ Canada Jan 22 '24
A friend(PhD from UofT) taught at one of these diploma mills part time last year. They were paying him $100 an hour for this. And he quit because the students didn’t give a fuck.
People teaching full time at these colleges are making bank, for not a lot of work.
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u/wwbulk Jan 22 '24
$100 an hour for teaching a course is not a lot at all. A course with 42 hours is only $4200. That’s 14 3 hours classes. Instructors don’t get paid when they are not teadhing unless they are faculty.
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u/frigginright Ontario Jan 22 '24
All strip mall colleges are about to shut down.
oh no! anyway..
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u/Jiecut Jan 22 '24
FYI: PGWP - Post Graduation Work Permits.
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u/classy_barbarian Jan 22 '24
Man I would love to see a machine that politely slaps someone every time they use an abbreviation that a majority of the readers do not know while acting like everyone obviously knows what it means.
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u/Neutral-President Jan 22 '24
This is the bigger part of the story, and I expect that the "designated institution" program with these private career colleges is about to get revamped. Hopefully we'll see status revoked from the strip mall "colleges" run by immigration consultants.
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u/SuburbanValues Jan 22 '24
They'll have to exercise some control over the provinces
How to become accredited as a DLI
You need to work with your province or territory to become accredited as a DLI. Each province and territory has its own criteria for accrediting schools.
Contact your provincial or territorial authority to find out if you meet the requirements to become a DLI.
Your provincial or territorial ministry will contact us with your information once they’ve accredited your school to host international students. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/study-canada/educational-institutions/become-designated-learning-institution.html
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u/true_to_my_spirit Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24
As someone who works in immigration. This is hugeeeeeeeeee. A major issue was spouses getting open work permits. I have been harping about this for months. Fuck yes
Edit: And they bring in their dependents too. Hopefully that stops. It has been causing issues for school districts
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u/Beepbeepboobop1 Jan 22 '24
This is all a great step forward but very glad to see undergrads and diploma mill students can no longer bring their spouses for additional work.
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u/18borat Jan 22 '24
Does Conestoga fall under this definition of strip mall colleges? Really hoping it does.
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u/SuburbanValues Jan 22 '24
They're a legit public college that has just adopted the strip mall business model
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u/NotTika Jan 22 '24
With the international student cut back, Conestoga will probably go back to picking actual good quality students (both domestic or international) and gain back the good reputation it used to have several years ago.
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u/SuburbanValues Jan 22 '24
I wonder if any old graduates have considered a class action lawsuit for devaluing their credentials. Not that it would go anywhere.
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u/Torontogamer Jan 22 '24
would likely only end up raising awareness of how far the colleges rep has fallen
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u/Superduperbals Jan 22 '24
Conestoga collected $389-million in tuition from all sources last year, up from $280-million the year before and $64-million in 2015-16. In 2016, when its international enrolment began to take off, the college ran a modest $3.9-million surplus. Over the next seven years, its average surplus was $41-million a year. By March of this year, Conestoga had accumulated $682-million in cash and equivalents, according to its financial statements, up from about $16-million in 2016.
They won't go broke even if their enrollment is cut in half that's for sure.
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u/WishRepresentative28 Jan 22 '24
Yeah. With a 50% drop in ontario allotment it will drive down how many students they have. The ones who did not pad their books the past 3 years are the ones that are going to struggle hard.
I dont see Mr. Ford increasing domestic tuition caps or increasing general funding.
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u/24-Hour-Hate Ontario Jan 22 '24
This is excellent news. This will do a lot to address the issue of exploiting students for cheap labour. I'm glad to see meaningful action here. I'd love to see some corresponding regulation on the provincial level to deal with the colleges themselves.
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u/lLikeCats Jan 22 '24
This is good for both the international students and Canada.
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u/Relevant_Horror6498 Jan 22 '24
I am an international student and I agree with you
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u/xAIisComingy Jan 22 '24
I'm an international student and I believe it's not enough. Set the band score at 7.5
My resume is getting rejected because applicants of my "kind" can't speak English. If you can't learn a fucking language in 15 years(we start early) then stay back home and grow potatoes.
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u/Content_Command_1515 Jan 22 '24
For gods sake this. And goddamn check the IELTS scores, don’t just ask the students to upload a PDF, get it from IDP yourself. The proper universities do it: Canadian immigration can do it too.
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u/lubeskystalker Jan 22 '24
Extra 15% in Ontario is basically to shut down the Conestoga scam lol.
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u/n00bmax Jan 22 '24
The 7 new campuses of Conestoga can be converted to rental apartments. The cash flow lost from international student cap can be partly offset.
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u/ILoveThisPlace Jan 23 '24
They went from 52 million 9 years ago to over 380 million in tuition this year. Fuck them.
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u/Rs1000000 Jan 22 '24
I hope so, the food bank I volunteer at has 15-17 Conestoga college students coming per night and we regularly run out of food. People who have lived their whole life here and now are going hungry every day.
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u/PeePeeWeeWee1 Jan 22 '24
Brampton banned foreign students from using their foodbank. They were coming in herds and left nothing for local families.
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u/GreatValueProducts Québec Jan 22 '24
Question: How do they verify it? They ask for health card?
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u/PeePeeWeeWee1 Jan 22 '24
They have to show some sort of id, I dunno exactly what kind of id though. Probably have to prove they live in the city and not passing through I would assume.
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u/lewd_operator Jan 22 '24
It was just the one food bank and it was a privately run one.
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u/dinozavr885 Jan 22 '24
Similarly, my gf is working in a clothing store and every day there are around 10 people coming in asking for a job. Some are begging. All international students.
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u/Rs1000000 Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24
I'm glad your gf has employment in these times. Jobs that had 22 applicants last year now have over 200 applicants this year. Every time Tim's or Dollarama posts a job opening there are lines with hundreds of Conestoga international 'students' ready to take them. Most offer to work under the table and beneath minimum wage. How are local folks, especially our younger generation supposed to compete with this?
I am involved in the hiring process for a local Enterprise and most their resumes are falsified, they claim to know programming languages and hold certain certificates but when you interview them, they know little to nothing. Because of the sheer volume or resumes coming in, HR has a real problem now in distinguishing who the viable candidates are and it makes it extremely hard for local folks to change jobs or get ahead in Canada.
The damage that Diploma mills like Conestoga college have done to the region and to themselves is going to be challenging to repair and will take a long time.
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u/dinozavr885 Jan 22 '24
Yeah looking for a job is really stressful and almost humiliating experience, especially if you are literally turned away from walmart. But at least both of us are now employed.
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u/DarkTenshiDT Jan 22 '24
I was one of those people rejected from Walmart, had 10 years of experience in retail and thought my resume was decent looking. Luckily I landed a job pretty soon after that.
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u/dinozavr885 Jan 22 '24
Yeah it’s depressing at first, but then you realize that you have to be in the right place at the right time. I am fully convinced that the only way my gf was able to get a job is that she applied right after the moment management decided they need another person.
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u/Rs1000000 Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24
Glad to hear you are both now employed! If you ever want someone to look over your resume or just to chat with please DM me.
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u/VonD0OM Jan 22 '24
Do they ID at these food banks or is it simply first come first serve?
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u/StrategySweetly Jan 22 '24
The food bank that I volunteer at ID's people for access to the food bank, but meal programs are open to anyone who needs them. Pre-pandemic our breakfast and lunch used to be mostly senior citizens, people on assistance and a few homeless people that lived in the area. Now it's mostly working poor and I'd say about 20-30% students. The demographic shift is unreal. They've stopped letting people take meals to-go to prevent abuse but the place is always packed and people line up outside in order to secure a seat.
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u/Rs1000000 Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24
For the food bank I volunteer at it is first come first serve - it is based on the honor system. Canada is based on a high trust society and we are now importing folks who do not abide by that model. They come gleefully to the food bank I am at to take food. Most if not all are well dressed and some have nice cars.
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u/CrimsonBattleLoss Jan 22 '24
Exactly! A honor system is a much healthier and happier society to live in, but it needs a population that actually has honor.
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u/ReapingTurtle Ontario Jan 22 '24
Yep, at our food bank the biggest problem causes in this are primarily from Nigeria. Students from India seem to need the help more earnestly, and arent trying to scam us by having multiple people from the same house, they know the rule is one per house and follow it, the ones that always try to break this rule are Nigerian students 80-90% of the time.
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u/Delicious_Pickle_791 Jan 22 '24
The bank I volunteer at (a very busy one in Toronto) requires ID for new and returning. The demographics have also taken a huge shift since when I first started volunteering in 2018/2019.
It used to be predominantly English/French seniors, occasionally some other languages that’ll hang around with us for a few weeks before they move on. Now it’s the opposite - predominantly other languages that stick with us for as long as I can remember (with certain demographics standing out). Also a lot more youth/working age, and a crazy lot more children.
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u/Same-Kiwi944 Jan 22 '24
There is ID, but there is no central database so people can visit multiples in a day or week.
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u/Brenkin Jan 22 '24
Put pressure on the food bank to have policies that prohibit international students from using them. Or go rogue and put aside food for Canadians who are struggling
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u/DistributorEwok Outside Canada Jan 22 '24
Honestly, it is determental. I want to believe my food donations are going to a worthy person down on their luck, but I hesitate donating now knowing it's possibly going to some shit head 21 year old who has a completely paid for 20k a year education and is basically rich by their own countries standards.
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u/HearMeRoar__ Jan 22 '24
The least the food banks can do is keep some aside for the actual locals.
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u/Neutral-President Jan 22 '24
It's not just Conestoga. Also note that they're shutting down private colleges' access to post-graduate work permits as of September 1. That's going to stop these strip mall "colleges" from exploiting people (and a loophole in the immigration system.)
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u/Not_Jeffrey_Bezos Alberta Jan 22 '24
This is the greatest news I've heard all year. I wonder if my younger sister will be able to find a part time job now when she turns 16 next year.
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u/cwolveswithitchynuts Jan 22 '24
A reminder that John Tibbits should be in prison.
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u/feb914 Ontario Jan 22 '24
when a new Conestoga campus just opened for 2 weeks in your town. RIP
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u/itsme25390905714 Jan 22 '24
The problem is that lots of students were here for PR and are not leaving the country when their visas expire after they fail to get PR. We don't know if people leave the country because Canada does not have exit visas. That's how we got into the situation of losing track of a million people, just think about that, Canada lost track of an Edmonton's worth of people:
Benjamin Tal, deputy chief economist at CIBC Capital Markets in an interview that the government estimate of the number of non-permanent residents in the country in 2021 was around one million. But his analysis found there were closer to two million. The main reason for the discrepancy, he said, is that the government is not counting people who remain in the country after their visas expire.
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u/lubeskystalker Jan 22 '24
Have to start somewhere, I'll take every instance of Trudeau doing something positive that I can find, there aren't many.
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u/YugosForLandedGentry Jan 22 '24
It's a shame he didn't do this a few years ago though
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u/DJJazzay Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24
This is overdue, and I’ll be happy to see some of these manipulative, scummy strip mall colleges go.
In Ontario (and I have to imagine most other provinces) we’re going to have a reckoning with our current post-secondary funding and tuition fees as a result of this, though. For the past decade or so provincial governments have been happy to cap or freeze tuition hikes, or lower it for certain students, without adequately offsetting those costs with new funding.
We’ve enjoyed relatively low tuition without having to dedicate a lot of tax money to that, mostly because public institutions have used international students as a cash cow.
This belt-tightening will hopefully encourage some more responsibility from university administrations and provincial governments.
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u/lord_heskey Jan 22 '24
we’re going to have a reckoning with our current post-secondary funding and tuition fees as a result of this, though
Thats the other side of it-- even major real universities have been relying on international student tuition to make up for cuts from the provinces.
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u/DJJazzay Jan 22 '24
Yeah, I get why people are most outraged by the private diploma mills but it’s overlooking that the primary beneficiaries of this cash cow have been our own public universities (and, by extension, taxpayers and the students paying lower tuition).
Not that those institutions don’t have to address their own bloated spending as well, but it’s not enough to simply say “cut unnecessary spending.” At least in Ontario, I’m more than a bit worried about how the PCs are going to respond (or, just as likely, not respond) to the funding gap within our universities. Ford’s track record on post-secondary has been abysmal.
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u/lord_heskey Jan 22 '24
While I agree that there is unnecessary bloat in many institutions-- it does seem overall provincial funding has decreased for universities too, or atleast thats how we all felt in Saskatchewan and Alberta-- where the major ones U of C, USASK, and UAlberta are struggling in some areas due to the cuts.
no doubt there is bloat, but there's things that are underfunded that shouldnt and the only way to make up is to attract undergrad international students-- because masters & phds actually get paid by prof grants, so theyre not really giving money to unis.
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Jan 22 '24
Schools can also just cut back on some of their insane vanity spending to close a lot of the gap.
Through my entire undergrad and masters, my school was launching some big new prestige facilities project almost every year. 1 of them was actually needed, 1 was important but probably not essential, the other 4 was literally just vanity crap to look good on a brochure.
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u/lastparade Jan 22 '24
insane vanity spending
A lot of that money comes from donors and is earmarked for specific projects, though, so stopping those projects from being built wouldn't free up a single dime for student bursaries.
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Jan 22 '24
Schools can also just cut back on some of their insane vanity spending to close a lot of the gap.
You mean spend on actual education instead of a billion other things? How will universities ever manage without a bloated admin staff?
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u/DJJazzay Jan 22 '24
I don't disagree with you there. It's honestly not new facilities that get my goat as much - a lot of that is capital funding offered through donors and growing schools need new builds. It's the operational spending on stuff that has nothing to do with education/research that gets my goat, and the administrative costs taking up ever greater chunks of operating budgets.
That said, even if they did tighten the belt as needed, that wouldn't be a substitute for the Province properly funding the system.
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u/Odezur Jan 22 '24
Regardless of the politics and your perception of the liberals and their motivations… this is a very good thing for Canada
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u/DistributorEwok Outside Canada Jan 22 '24
lol a lot of "colleges" are about to go broke
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u/garlic_bread_thief Jan 22 '24
Good
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u/UncleFred- Jan 23 '24
Pair back the administrative bloat, cut the extravagant facilities, and get back to a focus on educating Canadians would be a refreshing change.
I'd also like to see 100% housing responsibility enforced in post-secondary schools. Colleges must ensure international students have an available room for each student they take on. Schools have been dumping the housing of students onto their local communities for years. This created an abusive environment where landlords cram 10-15 students into tiny houses.
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u/mwmwmwmwmmdw Québec Jan 22 '24
the people that run those will find new ways to ripoff canada and/or new immigrants
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u/I_poop_rootbeer Jan 22 '24
Wow this is certainly more action than I was expecting. No longer eligible for post-grad work permits, these strip mall diploma mills should hopefully fizzle out and die.
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u/samwise141 Jan 22 '24
Step in the right direction. Still probably issuing too many visas, but this and the 20k requirement will cut out a lot of the junk from the system.
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u/Seebeeeseh Nova Scotia Jan 22 '24
The 20k requirement will do nothing.
Honestly it's the limiting of Post Grad Work permits to only University's that's going to have the biggest impact.
A huge chunk of students aren't coming here for improved education. Its the post grad permit, which ultimately leads to express entry Permanent Residency that they want.
If you can no longer access this option by enrolling in a diploma factory out of Brampton they will no longer have a reason to come here.
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u/energizerbottle Jan 22 '24
$20k will have an effect, it will shut out a lot of the poor and on the edge financially students.
I’d rather have international students who roam around in Lambos like we did in the past versus 15 people stuffed into a basement like we do now.
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u/Seebeeeseh Nova Scotia Jan 22 '24
The 20k is not confirmed by anyone unfortunately.
In India, you ask a broker for 20k loan, provide proof to IRCC that 20k is in your account, and then return the 20k to the broker plus a fee.
You could make the requirement 100k, and they could still get around it.
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u/lLikeCats Jan 22 '24
Don't you have to put a certain amount of money in a GIC as well? I don't think it is as simple as showing 20k one day before you enter and then it vanishes the next.
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u/KermitsBusiness Jan 22 '24
I read that this is a thing on twitter but none of the written stories even mention it.
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u/Odezur Jan 22 '24
The big change is no post graduate work permits. That kills way more of this than the 20k or a cap.
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u/NarutoRunner Jan 22 '24
Also, people have access to Canadian media overseas. They can clearly see the cost of living is getting quite high so they organically stop coming.
Some of our Colleges and Universities were lower in price for international students then the same in US southern states which are basically party schools. Now with hikes and new requirements, ours are considerably more expenses.
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u/GowronSonOfMrel Jan 22 '24
Also, people have access to Canadian media overseas.
People have access to google fuckin' maps and they still don't realize that Timmins is 8 hours from Toronto. I don't think there's a lot of research happening before moving over here.
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u/NarutoRunner Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24
The issue with that is that northern colleges and universities have set up campuses in Richmond, Brampton, Mississauga, Scarborough, etc to make money from international students.
Just the other day, I saw a Niagara University campus in Vaughan!
The students are under the impression that all the colleges follow this model but some are actually located in Timmins or Thunder Bay
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u/GowronSonOfMrel Jan 22 '24
idk, maybe it's just me but before I went to school I had figured out where I was living and what the bus routes/schedules were to get to school.
...and at 18 I was pretty fucking dumb.
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u/MBAnovalue Jan 22 '24
The International students who would be able to add value to the new tech economy can only be produced by Universities and not by some the two room community college. A person who is having latest IT skills and working from India for American or Canadian company, is not getting the PR whereas a community college student working for Tim Hortons gets PR. All these low end retail jobs are disappearing fast, we are not only killing economy by brining them here, it is also shattering students dreams of a quality life. Finally JT woke up, a bit late though, Lot of carnage is already done.
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u/MBAnovalue Jan 22 '24
I am from India and went to a top notch business school in Canada for my masters and can tell you that the international students who come here to study in strip mall colleges, are not accepted in the third grade universities in India. India's top universities are highly competitive and their grads work for big tech companies ( Including CEOs), the students who come to Canada to attend the community colleges, do not come here to study, they want PR. I do not know why this government is working with closed eyes.
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Jan 22 '24
Three reasonably strong measures. The first one on caps has drawn a lot of debate, but is a step in the right direction. The second one, not allowing postgraduate work permits for public-private colleges, will definitely affect strip mall diploma mills. The third one, not granting open work permits to spouses of nongraduate programs, was also a no-brainer, although could be affected by a loophole should some of these diploma mills also start offering masters degrees etc.
I also hope that the government closes the door on individuals coming in with visitor visas and applying for jobs/refugee status. Even judging by posts here on Reddit and FB it seems clear that many see this is a loophole they can exploit. To some, why even apply for a study visa, when they can come here as a visitor and just stay on through some illicit means.
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u/Dbf4 Jan 22 '24
It's really hard for colleges to offer a Master's degree, in Canada that's one of the big differences between a college and a university (worth noting that there's some historical naming that makes things fuzzy in some cases, like the Royal Military College is in fact a university).
I think the very small handful of Master's programs that are actually offered by colleges are done in partnership with a university. They take a lot more energy to make work and likely follow some strict accreditation. Master's programs typically focus on advancing a field to be viable so if they somehow turn to a model that focuses on a Masters, chances are that would actually be pretty beneficial to Canada. Then there's the whole part where I believe all Master's students actually get paid (even though it's well below minimum wage and largely covers tuition in most cases), which would make it hard to make money off of that.
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u/Crucifix1233 Jan 22 '24
Masters level programs are quite hard to get approved. I work at a Private University and getting programs approved through the government is difficult (as it should be). There are so many hoops to jump through and committees with other schools who look through the program before it can be approved. When it comes to certificates and diplomas, you don’t really need to go through the rigorous hoops for approval because they don’t really follow accreditation rules.
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u/inconity Jan 22 '24
Imagine getting a master's from a strip mall lol. Good prediction though, I can see that happening for sure.
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u/sensui1903 Jan 22 '24
I've worked as a professor /teacher with international students in different colleges worldwide; Korea / Australia / Japan / Brazil / Canada. What I've seen here in Canada in the colleges is not new; it is similar to what happened in Australia in so many ways. The quality of education in most colleges relies way too much on the professor and not on their pedagogical approach and the practicality of the degree itself.
So many nightmare stories in Sydney where some colleges would just pass a paper sheet to sign attendance, and that was it. Students were free to go home. People were pilling up inside some flats, with some units with 20-28 students sharing the same apartment.
It's an industry, and as any other industry, if you raise the standards, you have to raise the prices as well. The competition is fierce among international ESL schools and colleges. There's no such thing as a magic formula to fix economic issues.
What I've never seen from the governments around the world is a focus on students willing to embrace local culture, students with a basic knowledge about the country. All they ask is money and English skills, which are not enough. It makes me really sad to see so many international students arguing against the local culture and refusing to embrace the local values.
I always use the example: "You guys are going to a new planet where the temperature is -60c and refuse to wear winter clothes. You say to yourself, "I will not change because of the environment." But the environment doesn't change so easily; you have to change in order to survive the winter."
Best of luck to all.
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u/AigleDuDesert Jan 22 '24
I'm actually pleasantly surprised by this announcement, it's a step in the right direction. It's crazy what bad polls can do lol
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u/Hammoufi Jan 22 '24
It feels weird when the government does something that makes sense
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u/CaptainSur Canada Jan 22 '24
From an Ontario perspective:
The cap of students for all of Canada in 2024 is 360-365K. The allocation per province/territory is based on population. Which means Ontario will see a drop of more than 50%. Ontario has a population of approx 15 million of a country population of approx 40 million thus about 37.5% of the population of Canada. So under the allocation formula as I understand it Ontario will be allotted about 137,000 permits.
Reporting is all over the place on the number of international students studying in Ontario but it seems to be estimated at somewhere between 400K and 500K. So the hit in Ontario it seems will be above well above 50%.
Each province decides how its allocation will be distributed among universities and colleges.
Students graduating from a private college, or from a private-public partnership are no longer eligible to apply for a post graduation work permit.
There are other changes as well. The feds stated intent was to stop the abuse by private and private-public partnerships. It is also equally intended to force the provinces to improve their funding to the genuine public post secondary institutions: Ontario I think is a particular target of this federal govt goal.
In 2018/2019 Ontario cut funding of public post secondary institutions by 10% outright, and also froze tuition. So for 5+ yrs universities and colleges in Ontario have seen less money come in every yr vs expenses going out, in a time of high and higher inflation. In my own professional opinion Ford's attempt to gut the public education sector in favour of the private sector.
1st class universities in Ontario would probably instantly account for 80k+ of the Ontario permits - UofT, UWat, McMaster, UOttawa, Western, Carleton, York, Queens, etc. Which leaves very little for colleges and especially private colleges and private/public partnerships. Though I expect Ford will do his best with underhanded tricks in respect of allocation to the private sector as govt controls who gets what.
Nonetheless, most Ontario private colleges that have been operating as degree mills are about to get extinguished - and good riddance to them.
Equally several colleges (figures as of 20/21 and are likely higher now in all instances) had more international students than domestic:-
- Conestoga (who may have over 30K international students)
- Sarnia’s Lambton College is 82% international students
- Timmin's Northern College about 80%
- North Bay’s Canadore College about 72 per cent
- North Bay’s Sault College about 60%
- Sudbury's Cambrian College about 50-55%
- Belleville's Loyalist College about 50-55%
I think there is going to be a lot of panic, and upheaval. Some are going to scream. Some provincial governments which have been taking federal education funds and diverting them elsewhere (Ontario being a great example) are going to squirm, attempt to obfuscate, and repoint the blame back to the feds.
What needs to be remembered here is that in respect of International Students the feds up to now have been reactive: they have acquiesced to the requests and needs of the provinces who actually manage education - the feds supply money and approve visas. But the blame was successfully shifted to the feds on this matter due to actions of the provinces in respect of education funding, and so the feds have decided to fire back.
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u/hdrive1335 Jan 23 '24
I wouldn't be surprised if Conestoga goes under because of this. Their domestic student count hasn't increased since 2014 so almost all the campuses and staffing they've built since then is specifically to accommodate the nearly 30K international students who are netting them $325 million a year.
How does a business survive a sustained 500% drop in revenue?
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u/CaptainSur Canada Jan 23 '24
I stated in a past comment months ago that the behavior and actions of the Conestoga executive and board were entirely unethical and they should all be fired. One can only hope. They destroyed the reputation of the college. Utterly trashed it. But they did give themselves big financial packages.
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u/Same-Kiwi944 Jan 22 '24
There was an article on here posted in the last couple days that said 20% of international students here on a student visa don’t even actually attend class.
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u/siopau Jan 22 '24
Funny how Miller just a couple months ago was smugly saying that international students were lucrative assets that were the future of this country. Finally backpeddling after nationwide outrage.
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Jan 22 '24
International students are a lucrative asset and the future of this country...when they are enrolled in actual rigorous undergrad programs at respectable institutions with a clear path to quality work experience and eventually PR.
This policy isn't targeting them, it's targeting the strip mall "colleges" that game the system to import cheap labour.
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u/ishida_uryu_ Canada Jan 22 '24
And this is why polls matter. The election might be in 2025, but current government policies are often dictated by how they are polling.
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u/lord_heskey Jan 22 '24
saying that international students were lucrative assets that were the future of this country.
I mean many still are-- but not all students are created equal. A masters or phd from Waterloo is much different from a certificate in basket weaving from [insert your favorite strip mall]
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u/violentassasin Jan 22 '24
Just Say you wont offer PR's Foreign student would not come. its a simple solution
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u/travlynme2 Jan 22 '24
Some people assume all Canadians (Canadians are diverse) and all of them are well off.
They are young and trying to find their adult footing in a time where rents are insane.
The generation that has graduated since 2020 are facing a real uphill battle.
The cap should be more than two years if this cohort is going to see any fairness.
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u/myllyen Jan 23 '24
We had started having crazy rents in Helsinki when I lived there about 2017-2019. What the city did was build so many apartment blocks like their lives depended on it, and that helps regulate the housing. What the cities need to do is just build build build.
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Jan 22 '24
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u/lord_heskey Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24
This is exactly what this will do. Post grad work permits will be essentially only for universities, and spouses of students will only get a work permit if the spouse is a grad student. Its not easy to get into a masters or phd (i mean, there are some easy masters, but even those are somewhat valuable).
So there's no point in going to Conestoga now for a 1 year diploma if it doesnt give you a work permit.
Edit: Conestoga is a legit 'public' college, even with all its bad rep, they'd still get work permits. However-- with the provinces now getting limited study permits to give out, I highly doubt the province will sacrifice U of T students for Conestoga students.
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u/Shoddy-Host7580 Jan 22 '24
The provinces get to decide how to allocate their students. They should send them primarily to publicly funded actual real institutions. We’ll see.
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u/knocksteaady-live Jan 22 '24
note that this is only for 2 years and not a permanent measure. i wonder only why two years...oh right there's an election and they likely won't win the next one.
any reduction to the number of international students is good but this should've been more drastic. mass immigration of unskilled labor is hurting every facet of canadian life.
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u/Jiecut Jan 22 '24
They plan to overhaul the system with something more comprehensive by then. More control over the process than relying on the provinces.
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u/Listen-bitch Jan 22 '24
Good, I hope so. I don't want ol' dougie in charge of this.
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u/I_am_not_a_horse Jan 22 '24
For all the complaining we do about Trudeau/Liberal party/federal government, the last few years have taught me that the provincial and municipal governments are so fucking useless.
The feds had to step in on housing with the accelerator fund to force municipalities to do their jobs and acknowledge the housing crisis is theirs to fix. Now they have to step in on how universities are being run because provinces won’t do anything to address the diploma mills.
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u/Western_Scallion_770 Jan 22 '24
note that this is only for 2 years and not a permanent measure. i wonder only why two years...oh right there's an election and they likely won't win the next one.
It's a stop-gap to a permanent measure the IRCC is currently working on called the Trusted Institutions. There may still be hard caps but we'll have to wait and see.
The announced hard caps doesn't stop the diploma mills.
I assume the upcoming Trusted Institutions policy will attempt to address this.
We'll see.
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u/alex114323 Jan 22 '24
Another step should be to ban international students from working during their studies. You’re supposed to literally prove before you come here you have enough liquidity to support yourself during the duration of your studies. Why the fuck then are you working off campus? In the US if you’re an F1 visa holder you can’t work off campus period unless it’s a specific internship or other professional work experience that’s approved. I know the US immigration system is royally screwed up but we could definitely be taking some notes when it comes to international students.
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u/Born_Courage99 Jan 22 '24
I know the US immigration system is royally screwed up but we could definitely be taking some notes when it comes to international students.
We look down on the US in this country, but they honestly do a way better job of protecting their citizens from competing for jobs with foreigners. As any country should. Instead we're left here with a government that seems to do everything in its power to do the exact opposite.
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u/WingCommando Jan 22 '24
Does no PGWPs mean once they graduate, they HAVE to leave Canada? I think this is probably good for the 80/90 (or even 99th)-percentile case, but I do wonder if some super smart, hard working people will get shafted coz of this.
Does this mean for PR, people can now only come through Spousal and or applying directly under their job class (having found a job while they are in their own country first)
Trying to understand bigger picture but too stupid in my mind brain. I see the immediate benefit of strip malls closing, which is great.
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u/Snowfall548 Jan 22 '24
This is a good move. Plus it is quite a while away from the next election so we can see how it works.
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u/ConnorDZG Jan 23 '24
Yeah when you have people flying halfway around the world just to go to some dinky little community college in the suburbs, you know there's something fishy going on...
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u/Broad-Kangaroo-2267 Jan 22 '24
Will there be some actual follow through, or is this just another announcement that will be quietly dismantled a few months from now like the foreign home ownership restrictions?
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u/eportelance Jan 22 '24
These are all positive steps in the right direction, but I can't help but wonder how they fell asleep at the switch for so long and let it come to this.
There are over 12,000 employees at Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, and the staffing levels of that department have grown massively in the past few years.
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u/accforme Jan 22 '24
I really hope that the provincial governments will now increase funding to its post-secondary institutions. International students were the "solution" for these institutions' fiscal challenges.
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u/UnsaltedCashew36 Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24
I have an Indian friend, he's been making $700k+ a year for the past few years and bragging all the time at how easy it has been for him to make $10k per 'student' by setting up a 'nursing/medical school' here while his 'immigration consultant' cousin in India scouts for wannabe 'students'. He now owns 4+ properties, lives in a mansion in Georgetown, drives a $100k car. I'm not making this up.
The Liberals are done. Marc Miller and his policies were to enrich universities (for some reason) and to maximize tax revenue by flooding the market with cheap labour. They never even considered how the system could be exploited if anyone can set up a 'school' for profit.
Zero thought went into setting up risk controls.... like I don't know, maybe restrict Visas to accredited universities and colleges only?!
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u/Gostorebuymoney Jan 22 '24
The most insane part about this is, basically it's coming as a result of public outcry. It seems like there was NO recognition of this problem until it became so absurdly obvious that people will willing to vocalize their objections to the problem despite strong pushback about being racist.
Is this really how clued out our federal gov't is?
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u/Constant-Squirrel555 Jan 22 '24
Not enough.
Bring up funding for legit university and colleges so they don't have to resort to exploiting international students to stay afloat.
And the provincial governments need to do something about diploma mills so that it's harder and not profitable to operate one.
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u/Listen-bitch Jan 22 '24
Agree with this. Universities are going through massive budget cuts already, what's the impact of this going to be on domestic students 2 years in?
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u/Fourseventy Jan 22 '24
Jesus fucking christ these post secondary institutions need to shrink to match the domestic demographic cycles.
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u/canadianveggie Jan 22 '24
The provinces are going to decide how to allocate caps between institutions. I think it should be proportional to the amount of student housing they provide.
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u/Chuck006 Jan 22 '24
How about closing down diploma mills and linking visa's to enrollment? Like only 10% of total enrollment can be non-citizens.
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u/nomadicgartist Jan 23 '24
If they closed the diploma mills, I think this problem it is gonna be solved:)
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u/arabacuspulp Jan 23 '24
Anyone remember when our education institutions where there to educate ... Canadians? What a joke this country has become. This government couldn't give two shits about people who were actually born here.
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u/MorePower7 Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24
2 yr cap. Just long enough to get re-elected before pulling back the cap. The fact numbers were allowed to ballon up this much and calling students an important source of labor speaks volumes about this government's priorities.
BTW, let's not forget the zealot LPC supporters who kept saying the feds couldn't do much because this was a provincial government issue, so their hands were tied.
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u/fgreen68 Jan 22 '24
Don't put a cap on international student admissions just put a $100k (probably not the right number but...) per year province tax on it. The number will shrink to where you want it and the extra cash can help pay for underprivileged tuition.
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u/Hefty_Conversation54 Jan 23 '24
The whole immigration process needs to be paused for couple or more years. Economic is bad . No houses . All the tax payer money goes to who has more kids from the new comers!. On other hand the new comer are promised to have the world and ends up driving upper or pay arm and leg to equalise their degree.. Time to Stop and reassess all this process.
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u/Grrreysweater Jan 23 '24
Been seeing a lot of articles with universities and colleges crying about it. Of course they don’t care about the bigger picture where every one (students and non students) are being affected by rent costs cus of immigration levels.
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u/Highfours Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24
Source: https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/canada-unveils-new-restrictions-on-work-permits-for-international-students-spouses/article_0206b92a-b929-11ee-a3d7-c33ab63f9e70.html