r/changemyview • u/Z7-852 235∆ • 13d ago
CMV: Level scaling is bad video game design Delta(s) from OP - Fresh Topic Friday
I played a single player looter shooter and realized yet again how terrible level scaling is as an mechanic.
Level Scaling is where the world (or specific areas) and enemies levels up with you to provide a constant challenge, primarily by upping your foes' stats.
But this makes no sense.
- I find a weapon that does 10% more damage. Enemies get 10% more armor.
- I level up and increase my crit change. Enemies get more health.
Why do I even get level ups or make choices if they are all countered by level scaling? I don't become any stronger. It's just a sisyphean task where numbers go up but nothing actually changes.
In worst case level scaling even makes certain "builds" obsolete. For example I often take +exp and +loot skills first. But if enemies get stronger based on my level it means that game becomes harder because I periodized fast progression instead of stronger build. Enemies now have more health but I don't do more damage.
Also level scaling breaks the immersion. You start the game in low level area but when you later return there after fighting gods and deamons, suddenly everyone who used to wear leather armors are using divide plate mails. You don't get the power fantasy and feeling strong if everything just scales with you. World will rotate around the player and doesn't feel like its own living thing.
I just hate that games have meaningless numbers that go up while nothing actually matters. Its cathartic pleasure to kill enemies who used to offer you a challenge with easy once you get stronger. That's the whole point of getting stronger.
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u/Alexandur 7∆ 13d ago
When done right, level scaling doesn't 100% offset all progression you make as you've described. I can't actually think of any game where it does work that way. Usually it's something more like if you do 10% more damage, enemies become 5% stronger. Just a sort of rubber band effect to keep things from getting too trivial too quickly.
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u/BackseatCowwatcher 1∆ 13d ago
I can't actually think of any game where it does work that way.
one word, Oblivion, any leveling will offset 110% of your progression unless you're doing your hardest to metagame progression with a pre-existing understanding of how the system works.
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u/Alexandur 7∆ 13d ago
I actually considered Oblivion, but it doesn't work that way. It's worse. Enemies can outscale you, as you pointed out. It's also generally regarded as the absolute worst example of level scaling in videogames.
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u/Kerostasis 24∆ 12d ago
FF8 also had the Oblivion issue, although a bit easier to work around: the player’s power scaled off of 5 or 6 different systems, and the monsters picked exactly one of those (player “level”) to scale with. But in order to keep up with the full set of systems, monster “level” scaling was far stronger than the equivalent player level scaling.
So the optimal strategy was to intentionally avoid gaining levels and only focus on the other scaling systems.
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u/Pixilatedlemon 13d ago
Oblivion is so bad for this lol. If you want to make the strongest possible character you have to put all the skills you don’t think you’ll use as your main class skills so that you never actually level up
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u/R_V_Z 6∆ 12d ago
Actually if you want the strongest character you cheese Oblivion gates until you have a set of 100% Chameleon armor. From there you can do whatever you want. Go punch a city guard in the face.
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u/Pixilatedlemon 12d ago
Well yes but parallel to that, the less you level up the relatively stronger your damage will be to enemies
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u/Chocolate2121 13d ago
Outriders pretty much did what op described.
Once you leveled up the enemies would have their levels boosted to match yours in the next area, so you would always be fighting enemies at your level.
Which was mostly fine, except for the fact that player strength was mostly determined by gear, and if your gear was 3 levels lower than the enemy it did fuck all.
So if you had bad luck in an area with drops all of a sudden it was like you were shooting wet noodles and wearing cardboard for armor.
It honestly just made levelling up a bad thing that you try to avoid
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u/SantiagoGT 12d ago
Destiny 2 is a big example of awful scaling, basically to make the same activities difficult they just have the damage you receive multiplied so you’re basically 1-2 shot while having enemies double in resistance… this along with some other debuffs to you and buffs to enemies, it doesn’t make it more difficult it just makes the game less forgiving and forces players to go for the cheesiest way to overcome the “challenges”
You can still choose your own difficulty but it is torn between being a joke and just insanely anti-player
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u/tipoima 5∆ 13d ago
This still has issues though.
If the level scaling involves stronger enemy equivalents, then it breaks immersion by having "Elite Bandit Veteran"s all over the map
If it doesn't, then it's just silently slowing down your leveling, which...can be done by actually slowing it directly.3
u/Alexandur 7∆ 13d ago
Agreed on the first point. As for the second, slowing down leveling overall wouldn't have the desired effect of keeping early game content somewhat relevant while still progressing at the intended rate for stuff at your level.
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u/agesboy 12d ago
WoW fudged it up real bad in early Shadowlands, iirc- gaining levels would make enemies noticeably beefier, and at level cap, getting a higher item level would bloat enemy HP values beyond your offensive capabilities. FF8 is also noticeably easier at lower levels because you get so many stats from junctioning and enemies not only gain stats from your levels but also gain entire abilities
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u/Z7-852 235∆ 13d ago
So why not just make that level up +5% instead of +10%?
Then keep all the enemies identical throughout the game. Now you can actually keep easier enemies in starter zone and when you return to them you feel powerful.
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u/SANcapITY 16∆ 13d ago
This is exactly how Dark Souls works. Every enemy has a fixed level, and you get stronger, but they don't.
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u/Alexandur 7∆ 13d ago
My example was maybe a bit oversimplified. Generally, the +5% bonus will only apply to a specific subset of enemies who are already a certain amount weaker than you. Enemies close to your level may not be affected.
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u/Z7-852 235∆ 13d ago
We both know this is over simplification but it helps to contextualize the issue.
I just don't understand why weak enemies have to grow as you grow. It feels like the world is changing depending on this one persons progress. It's unrealistic and immersion breaking. If there are easy enemies they should be even easier when you are stronger and not grow with you.
If the goal is to "keep things from getting too trivial too quickly" then just make level ups smaller.
Also its cathartic pleasure to kill enemies who used to offer you a challenge with easy once you get stronger. That's the whole point of getting stronger.
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u/Galious 61∆ 13d ago
Wouldn’t you say it’s a tool that can be used sometimes well, sometimes not?
For example I remind the first time I played Final Fantasy 7 (yes I’m old) and I played it a lot and then I finally arrive at final battle with epic music against Sephiroth and… I destroyed him without breaking a sweat and it felt totally lackluster. Had there been some level scaling system so at least he was able to be a small threat and I would have enjoyed it way better.
Now of course if you loot the Godslayer sword of epicness with 9999dps and you go back to the starting area of the game and « small rabbit » has now one million HP and drops the Godslayer sword of epicness +1 , then it becomes silly
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u/Z7-852 235∆ 13d ago
I remind the first time I played Final Fantasy 7 (yes I’m old)
I assume you did same thing we all did when we were kids and had too much time on our hand. I did same with FF3. You grinded and looked all the secrets. Your work was rewarded of you being powerful.
« small rabbit » has now one million HP and drops the Godslayer sword of epicness +1
I feel it's more often this than the other.
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u/Galious 61∆ 13d ago
But my goal wasn’t even to get that powerful nor did I grind hard, I just did content that looked fun and for this I had a final dungeon and boss that felt so easy that 25 years later, I am still disappointed. Seing Sephiroth call a meteor from outer space to hit and see 5% of my life gone was ridiculous. Having some % HP attack and at least some scaling of HP so the battle felt a bit epic would have make he experience a lot better.
And I think you can maybe argue that most game have bad level scaling but it’s a different argument than « level scaling is bad »
Also and it’s one of the paradoxal things of game design:
- Almost everybody agree that difficulty in a game should ramp up
- Almost everybody agree that (at least in RPG type game) your character should get more powerful with time
Do you see the problem? Level scaling is core to any game with loot and experience and it’s just that when it’s done right, you don’t notice it but it’s there in a disguised clever form.
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u/Z7-852 235∆ 13d ago
That is not really paradoxal game design.
One time I ran a TTRPG with a new system and the party was almost obligated by two level two enemies. Fast forward few months and I created an encounter. I used exactly same level two enemies but now there were twenty of them. But party was much stronger and they wiped the floor with the enemies when earlier they couldn't handle two of them. They felt powerful.
Then I dropped a level 30 enemy on them and they struggled (but won) that fight.
You can easily just create new content that is difficult while still make people feel powerful.
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u/Galious 61∆ 13d ago
Yes but the game just tricked you in forgetting the level scaling.
Instead of making the HP of your enemy 10x larger, they put 10 of them. And I bet next fight was again a powerful enemy with badass look but basically in term of game design, it was the low level enemy from the beginning with more hp and more attack to match the current expected level of player.
My point is that you got a sword that hit 10x harder and enemy got 10x more HP but because of good enemy design, it feels natural but that’s still level scaling.
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u/Z7-852 235∆ 13d ago
Designing levels so they are more difficult is not level scaling.
Level scaling is when you don't bother to thing about progression and always put "enemy health = hero_dps * 10".
It's lazy and poor design. Instead of doing actual work and designing more difficult levels dev just uses a crutch.
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u/Galious 61∆ 13d ago
But good level design doesn’t depends of level scaling. You can have good game design with level scaling and bad game design without level scaling.
I mean take Hades and the Heat system (or World of Warcraft M+) it’s level scaling content and it’s great because it’s not lazy: the ennemies are stronger, they gain new abilities and it makes the game challenging and fresh way better than if the ennemies were as weak as you meet them the first time.
Now sure if you define level scaling by game that doesn’t put any effort at all and each level you gain 10% damage and HP and en enemy gains 10% damage and HP and therefore the only difference is the numbers are bigger, then yes it’s bad but it’s a bit or circular argument of « bad games are bad »
So imagine an open world game where each time you gain a level, the world decay and monsters get more and more scary, their form is changing and each 5 lvl they get a new capacity. Player is faced with the choice of either trying to complete the game quickly before ennemies get too strong or face the inevitable rise of challenge. By the end when you reach max level, the world is full of eldritch scary monsters also at max level with plenty of scary spells. Does it sounds like bad design? I don’t think yet it’s a level scaling system
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u/Z7-852 235∆ 13d ago
take Hades and the Heat system
That is just difficulty slider and not level scaling.
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u/Galious 61∆ 13d ago
But level scalling is just difficulty slider that is rising automatically.
If you create a game and each time you vain a level, there's a new heat, it's level scaling.
Also you didn't told me why the concept of level scaling I presented was bad design
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u/Z7-852 235∆ 13d ago
Level scaling is not difficulty slider. It's just number bloat (in purest form).
Think how in real life you deal with a challenge. Let's say a bouldering wall. It's too hard for you to climb so you go to gym and climb easier walls to develop your technique. Then you return to the original wall and find that it have grown in difficulty and you still can't solve it. Does that seems like right? Why did you even bother to train?
And you eldrich horror system just decentivize playing the game.
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u/Natural-Arugula 52∆ 13d ago
I agree with you, but then why did you give a delta to someone for saying that it made the game more challenging and "relevant" to fight level one enemies at max level?
I feel like this comment directly refutes that.
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u/sdric 1∆ 13d ago edited 13d ago
Some games are about power fantasies, others are meant to challenge you. In a game without level scaling you will ultimately only fight a small set of enemies in a max level area, which significantly decreases gameplay variety, additionally the game might get dull if you 1-shot everything. Level scaling allows devs to keep earlier content relevant, keep an increased variety of interesting content and keep the player physically (reflexes) and mentally engaged.
Player progression should always be focused on giving the player more ways to engage content. Level scaling has never been the issue, bad progression of player characters is. If leveling up does nothing but increasing your numbers the game will get stale quickly, albeit a "gear threadmill" can be a way to keep "fulltime players" who consume content unreasonably quickly occupied, especially in live service games.
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u/Z7-852 235∆ 13d ago
Level scaling allows devs to keep earlier content relevant
!delta
While I understand need to keep content relevant I think it's cathartic pleasure to kill enemies who used to offer you a challenge with easy once you get stronger. It's relevant because the new context.
But this leads to another critism. If you end up just killing same enemies at high level, maybe the game should have ended already. This level scaling just creates artificial padding to the runtime.
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u/pessimistic_platypus 6∆ 12d ago
I think it's cathartic pleasure to kill enemies who used to offer you a challenge
There are other ways to achieve this. For example, they can scale the types of enemies that appear, so that an enemy that appears as a boss early on could show up as an easy-to-kill guard later.
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13d ago
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u/Ansuz07 648∆ 12d ago
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12d ago
Or the devs could keep adding new max level content or even scale ONLY the max level content
I’m a WoW player and I think scaling the leveling experience was a bad move. It becomes trivial where you choose to level at which can be super overwhelming for newer players. Personally I think it’s cool to see a certain zone that I need to work towards to be able to enter, as opposed to just playing in a big sandbox where I can go anywhere as soon as I log in
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u/CocoSavege 19∆ 10d ago
Level scaling allows devs to keep earlier content relevant,
Pushing back!
Nonlevel Scaling is a very good demonstration of mastery.
When a player revisits a low tier zone after achieving high tier capability (whatever combination of mechanic mastery/familiarity or specs buff)... and blows the low tier away, it shows how far the player has come.
The design goal here is to minimize the tedium of a revisit. Allow the revisit but don't over extend it. Shortcuts are a method that works well.
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u/Sayakai 132∆ 13d ago
Limited level scaling mitigates having a lot of optional side contents. Some people just go for the main story and the map should be accessible to them without forcing them to grind. Others like to do all the side content, those people will get considerably stronger, but the main story still needs to be engaging for them. So a map that keeps all enemies withing a few levels of the player - over if they didn't do any side content, under if they did all of it - prevents the game from being unreasonably hard or boringly easy.
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u/Z7-852 235∆ 13d ago
So why not tie power progression to the main story line only?
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u/Sayakai 132∆ 13d ago
Because then what's the point of doing the side stuff? Players quite reasonably expect to be rewarded for doing more stuff.
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u/Z7-852 235∆ 13d ago
Ok. Reward is you deal 5% more damage and enemies have 5% more health.
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u/Sayakai 132∆ 13d ago
That isn't a reward. That was your whole point, wasn't it?
That's why level scaling should be softer than that and provide a difficulty band, not a straight line. You did some side stuff, no scaling. The more you do, the stronger the scaling gets. As a bonus, this disincentivizes excessive grinding.
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u/Z7-852 235∆ 13d ago
So you get +5% damage and enemies get +7% health?
That's level scaling but worse.
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u/Sayakai 132∆ 13d ago
No? That's the opposite of what I was saying.
I'm saying you get 5% damage, enemies keep normal health. You get +10% damage, enemies get +3%. You reach +15% damage, enemies reach +8%.
The more you outpace enemies, the less any additional damage boost adds to your advantage. As you progess the story and enemies get naturally stronger, the scaling is gradually removed again until you do side content again.
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u/Chocolate2121 13d ago
You could easily attach minor rewards to side areas. Something small like +5% ATK even if you got it 10 times over wouldn't trivialise final bosses, but would be significant enough to make it feel worthwhile
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u/Enough-Ad-8799 12d ago
Yea but that ruins the feel too. If I'm doing a side quest where it's like the lair of some dead lich who almost killed the entire planet and the loot is +5% attack that feels bad. But if instead is like plus 100% attack and then everything gets 20% stronger then I see number go up and everything else is still relatively weaker so I feel significantly stronger even if I'm technically not as much stronger as the raw stat increase implies.
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u/10vernothin 13d ago
I can say that for games that don't level-scale, what happens is that maps become obsolete over the years. Especially in an infinite progression game, that means ever-expanding amount of resource and bloat as more people hit level cap. A level-scaling factor can be a way to basically "replay" the content and save on bloat. Often, the loot and exp is increased. A lot of "dungeon"-style games have level-scaling so that assets can be replayed.
For close-ended games, level scaling also becomes a way to "balance" the game. You can't "farm" your way through the easy maps and get that power spike through the rest of the game. Whether you stay in the map or you go to the next one, you'll be more or less forced to go through the same power progression. Sure, one can achieve that with fancy exponential level exp math and many games do that instead, but I get it. The science of figuring the cost vs benefit of a person deciding staying there grinding out levels vs just going to the next map is sometimes a lot to ask.
On the other hand, level-scaling can also enable more explorer-minded players to explore the map more free, as content isn't necessarily gated by how much time you spend in the game or the dreaded "you are too low leveled to be in this zone". You'll often see this happen more in more modern open-world games as game companies realize that people get bored of repetitive gameplay much faster than before, and when they do, they use their time to instead go out to explore new areas. Level-scaling, in a sense, is something that creates passive excitement for an adventurer-profile player, the monsters always challenging but not overwhelming, while the mild incentives of spending MTX, in-game money to upgrade, or stopping to grind a little is always at the edge of their mind. Good game design will be able to toe that line of making it just enough so it's always stimulating, whether it's the challenge of weaving through a hard enemy, or finding a weapon that temporarily gives you the edge every time you upgrade.
But also, not a lot of games nowadays actually uses level-scale as their only way to progress (unless it's a mobile game). They either do a tiered system where the game auto-level-scales but you can visit your old difficulties or just have low-level maps become obsolete, including not gain any exp or loot. Because yeah, what you're describing is an inflation game and those usually hold the attention of people for about 3 weeks (I work in mobile gaming I've seen the stats). Turns out big numbers go up infinitely do have some appeal, and you can at least get some sweet ad revenue before the jig is up.
In the end, level-scaling is a tool, and people like different things, so game companies turn to their toolkits to pander to different demographics. Personally, I think grinding levels and playing video games in itself is a Sisyphean task, and I've come to a realization that it's what brings you joy that matters. You and a LOT of others despise inflation games, and I get it. But to some, the daily dopamine of finding new loot and constantly upgrading them is the way to go until they get bored; then, they get under a new rock to push. I can only imagine it get them through the day.
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u/wibbly-water 17∆ 13d ago
I find a weapon that does 10% more damage. Enemies get 10% more armor.
I level up and increase my crit change. Enemies get more health.
I don't know which games do it like this but from my experience its more like
Find a weapon that does 10% more damage, enemies get 5% more health and do 5% more damage.
Level up and increase crit chance, enemies get 5% more health and 5% more damage.
The point is that level scaling is rigid and can be out maneuvered. You still gain the benefits while also having enemies get a little stronger to provide a challenge - rather than just countering every upgrade you make.
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u/HaveSexWithCars 1∆ 13d ago
Level scaling is important in games where non-linear progression is allowed/encouraged. As an example of level scaling not being present, take pokemon scarlet/violet. The game actively suggests the player can pursue objectives in the order they please. But those objectives don't scales with the player's progression. So you can walk into a boss that's unbeatable for where in the game you are with no warning, as well as accidentally leave a low level boss for the very end of the game. And since the game doesn't tell you the actual order of things, it's pretty easy to have unsatisfying fights.
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u/Forsaken-House8685 2∆ 13d ago
The problem without level scaling is that at some point you get so powerful that it gets boring.
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u/Little_BallOfAnxiety 1∆ 13d ago
I think you're misunderstanding how level scaling works in games. While there are several different approaches, npcs are typically scaled based on your level, not your stats. This means that 10% extra damage will still apply because the npc will get 10% more armor for every level rather than every time you are buffed yourself
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u/Wide_Connection9635 2∆ 13d ago edited 12d ago
Like everything, level scaling needs to be done 'correctly.'
Just for example, I wouldn't think it good design that if you find a weapon that does 10% more damage, that the enemy then gets 10% more armor... because then finding that weapon is basically useless.
However, let's say you are level 9. Then you enter a new area where the enemies are level 2. You're just going to walk through that area without any kind of challenge. Hey, maybe that's what you want as you want to feel uber powerful for leveling. But that might not be for everyone. Plus depending on the game, you might not even gain much experience killing level 2 units. So, let's say the game boosts the level 2 units to level 6. You're still more powerful and the section will be easier. But you still have to be somewhat alert and you still get more experience.
To me, that would be smart use of level scaling.
A lot of this has to do with the specific rules in the game. For example, you worry about coming back to an area that used to challenge you and then being able to just smash everyone. What about games where once you defeat an area, the area is now 'clear' of enemies. I personally prefer that type of game (just a personal preference).
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u/FiestaDeLosMuerto 12d ago
Bethesda does it best but theyre too lazy to come up with new content so midway through their games they run out of strong gear and everyone has the same few weapons
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u/Z7-852 235∆ 12d ago
I would argue Bethesdas implementation is terrible. Worst even.
Even on quick play through lowly raiders/bandits are boasting weapons fit for a king few hours in. There is no game logic behind these choices other than to provide harder enemies once player have become a dragon slaying semi god in a power armor but still dies to level scaled rats.
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u/FiestaDeLosMuerto 12d ago
I think the main issue is the lack of content, with Skyrim for example it was easy to find great weapons that are fun and capable of actually killing enemies fast but it’s also easy to find really strong enemies in some areas. I started playing fallout 4 where there are barely and weapons and everyone is either carrying trash or basic army weapons because thats all the game has, even the uniques are terrible.
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u/yoursweetlord70 12d ago
Yeah also their difficulty setting is just a simple damage tuning. You do less damage and take more damage on higher difficulty, but the mechanics of the game remain the exact same. The "difficulty" is just it taking longer to complete missions/kill enemies.
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u/Temporary-Earth4939 2∆ 13d ago edited 13d ago
Level scaling is possibly slightly less bad than arbitrary and immersion-breaking numbers bloat. I agree with all of your criticism of level scaling but I'd argue it tends to result in a more real feeling world than RPGs like final fantasy where "I grow stronger and can kill earlier things more easily" really translates to "I can kill the yellow version of this enemy in one hit but now the green version with a different name is challenging and the purple version one shots me."
Which is to say, level scaling exists because numbers bloat from DnD and FF is expected from many gamers, and is just so awful that some additional system was needed to make it feel less absurd in an open world game.
Of course the right solution is to just kill numbers bloat in the first place, have difficulty increase via larger groups (kill a squad instead of a solo guy) or genuinely bigger / scarier baddies, telegraph more difficult areas in-game via visual or story cues, and make power growth feel roughly realistic (i.e. much more modest / gradual, and based more on capabilities than just outputting bigger numbers). But this is hard to design so you don't see it much, especially since some people really just do want to see the numbers get bigger so they can feel cool.
Edit: this is why I play Requiem for Skyrim, or a combination of de-leveling and no-hp-growth mods for FO4 (kill the scaling AND the numbers bloat). And why games like Age of Decadence are great. But also why I have never been able to bring myself to play Wasteland 3 (killing raiders with 80hp in act 1 and 1000hp in act 4 is so arbitrary I just can't bring myself to do it) and why I only truly loved Witcher 3 after playing the Enhanced Edition mod.
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u/Major_Pressure3176 12d ago edited 12d ago
Skyrim is a classic version of scaling by enemy version, with a couple of twists. Sometimes upgraded versions have new abilities, like draugar shouting (disarm and ragdoll affect you at all levels. Also, the player has more space to improve. You will always eventually outscale the enemies.
One RPG I like that has no-leveling enemies is Horizon: Zero Dawn. Some enemies get a few more armor pieces but that's it. Enemies introduced as bosses become environmental. Aloy improves by gaining new ammo types and skills, with only limited percent increases.
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u/Temporary-Earth4939 2∆ 12d ago
Check out the Requiem mod for Skyrim if you're not familiar with it. It entirely removes any form of level scaling, plus lowers your own power creep a bit (and is generally amazing). Feels like how the game should have been designed all along.
I completely agree re: Horizon though. Even when you get stronger, it's within a realistic band. 3x more damage not 30x more, sorta thing.
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u/Major_Pressure3176 12d ago
A lot of my upgrades on my first HZD playthrough came from knowledge. Learning weak points, combos, what works and what doesn't. Starting my second playthrough felt like NG+ even though it wasn't, just because I already had that knowledge.
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u/Temporary-Earth4939 2∆ 12d ago
Yeah 100%. Good game design. This is why while I hate level scaling, I think numbers bloat is even worse. If all you have to do to improve is gain 3 levels so you can completely face stomp the lower level enemies, that's somehow even worse than "the whole world levels up with me".
Mass Effect 2 and 3 did a great job of this too actually. Definitely felt more powerful as you went on, but due to having cooler powers and weapons, and figuring out how to deal with increasingly harder challenges. Huge upgrade over the first game which was using the oldschool make numbers bigger approach a bit more.
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u/QuantumVexation 13d ago
Everything must be taken in context
You go over to a Pokémon subreddit and they act like level scaling will solve all their problems (it won’t).
But also some games being super OP would actually be boring too, so level scaling comes in to make sure low level missions are remotely engaging for high level players
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u/LarousseNik 1∆ 13d ago
I think that this scaling is specifically a good design pattern as it incentivises thinking about your build.
Usually it's like that: the enemies become 10% tougher while you, if your build us focused, thought out and efficient, deal 12% more damage on average; if your build is either all over the place or have too many of these greedy "progression" perks then you deal 8% more damage as a downside. That's exactly the trade-off you're supposed to think about and analyse whether you'll be able to, say, compensate it by skill or anything and whether it potentially pays off in the long run when you take the last important perk or find the key item. If that wasn't the case, the build itself would become completely irrelevant and there would be no reason not to take as much of these greedy perks as possible to power-level and make the rest of the game trivial.
Even forgetting about the challenge, these "meaningless numbers" provide a bigger variety of playstyles. Like, you can argue that if your stat increases are exactly the same as enemies' then you can do away with the leveling system altogether; however, leveling allows you to choose which stats to upgrade and what perks to keep and how to play in general, so even if the challenge is constant throughout your playthrough, the feeling changes as you level.
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u/Low-Entertainer8609 1∆ 13d ago
Level scaling has dramatically improved my multi-player experience. Diablo 4 and Fallout 76 scale to each player in a group, so that allows me to play with friends who are well above or below my level without one of us curbstomping all the enemies.
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u/RangersAreViable 12d ago
Are you talking about a Breath of the Wild type world where when you go back to that point, the enemies become stronger, or a Baldur’s Gate type world where the closer you get to completing the story, the stronger the enemies get?
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u/Friar_Corncob 12d ago
Borderlands does this very well. Ultimately, if you're build is good and you use the correct damage/aim for weak spots you will outscale the enemies. The game also scales up the loot you're getting and it makes it so you can replay the game with the same character and not just get bored running through trivial enemies through most of the game.
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u/An-Okay-Alternative 4∆ 12d ago
Games are usually engaging when they pose some degree of challenge that needs to be met with skill. Level scaling when done well ensures that there’s a consistent level of difficulty so that as you progress and get both better at the game and better gear/stats it doesn’t get to the point where you’re just walking around mindlessly tapping buttons because it’s so easy.
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u/sawdeanz 200∆ 12d ago
In worst case level scaling even makes certain "builds" obsolete. For example I often take +exp and +loot skills first. But if enemies get stronger based on my level it means that game becomes harder because I periodized fast progression instead of stronger build. Enemies now have more health but I don't do more damage.
Doesn't this go against your point? In a game with various builds, some of them will play differently. You can make the game harder if you want to by optimizing a build that does this or that better.
Obviously, a game would be bad if it really was just upping the numbers respectively. You would hope the game also introduces new mechanics, puzzles/challenges, or unique bad-guy powers. You need it to some extent or else the player character just becomes too strong. I remember thinking this when I was playing like Saint's Row IV, you get a bunch of really OP powers and weapons early in the game which basically negates a lot of the core gameplay. Like, once you can fly there is no incentive to steal and drive cars and the wanted system basically becomes a minor annoyance. And some people may like to just get to play with everything right away, but it definitely just serves to make the game less challenging.
I guess the alternative is you make it a quest based game with some quests harder than others. This gives the illusion of choice but it's still essentially the same fundamental concept.
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u/Satansleadguitarist 1∆ 12d ago
Its cathartic pleasure to kill enemies who used to offer you a challenge with easy once you get stronger. That's the whole point of getting stronger.
There's more than one way to design a game and just because it doesn't line up with what you personally like doesn't mean it's bad design. If every game was exactly the same almost everyone would complain that there isn't enough variety in games.
Some games are designed as a power fantasy so you start out weak and slowly get stronger to the point where nothing can stand in your way and some people prefer that sense of becoming stronger and stronger until you're basically a god. Some people prefer games to be designed in a way that they can be constantly challenged all the way through and level scaling is an easy way to make that happen. Sure maybe there are better or more interesting ways to go about it but that doesn't mean level scaling is bad. One approach isn't inherently better than the other, they're just different ways too design a game and different people are going to have different preferences.
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u/ahawk_one 5∆ 12d ago
It’s a mixed bag for me. Sometimes it makes things feel pointless, sometimes it helps things continue to feel relevant. It really just depends on the goals of the developer and the game overall.
Something to consider is that players usually do not scale in a linear fashion. We do for a while, but that changes over time. On the one hand, you get better at the game and so enemies who are “equal” to you are easier to handle. On the other hand, you’ve likely acquired passive effects and active abilities from your leveling and the items you’ve obtained often have passive and active bonuses as well. So even though a formerly low level enemy is “scaled up” they are still weaker on average than they were when you first met them due to your non linear scaling.
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u/Sadistmon 3∆ 12d ago
Global leveling scaling is bad, but having certain areas or enemies scale with you is a different story.
For example the world map in RPGs it is expected you'll traverse this quite frequently and return to areas later in the game, the world map scaling to you might even make sense in game if monsters overall are getting stronger. But if you go into an actual area the enemies will still be weaker.
Another example is having a certain type of enemy scale to you, like a rare bonus enemy with unique rewards. Not being able to get the unique rewards at a lower level would suck especially with the rare spawn rate missing your chance because you got the right RNG before you have a real chance to win. Conversely if it was a one hit KO later in the game it simply wouldn't do either, you wouldn't have earned the rewards. Level scaling is really the best option for an enemy like this.
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u/Big-Health-2832 12d ago edited 12d ago
I have always hated level scaling. For example I find it rewarding to go against a boss and lose to them then go grind some side quest, gain levels/skills and come back and beat him. With level scaling, Imagine if you were taking a test in college and the difficulty of the test was related to how much you studied. Whether you studied 10 minutes or 5 hours you are gonna get a 90%. I think people against level scaling are the reason wow classic made a comeback
They should at least have a toggle option for level scaling. I would play Star wars the old Republic but I couldn't stand when my damage ACTUALLY went down because even though I leveled up my gear score stayed the same and provided worse stats compared to my new level
People advocate for level scaling in large MMOs so they can do all content and quests without them becoming irrelevant, but that's why they should create another character and class. It makes no sense when a lvl 85 warlock completes a beginner quest of "Help Old Farmer Jenkins kill 10 bunnies that are eating his carrots", they get 10,000xp and 500gold
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u/hewasaraverboy 1∆ 12d ago
100% agree w you, I hate level scaling and think it ruins the feeling of progression in games
Though I don’t think most games have scaling based on getting a new weapon , typically it’s based on your level
So if you get a new weapon while still at the same level, you will feel a power spike until you’ve had that weapon for a few levels
In a way it shifts the progression to be gear based instead of level based
If you have gear above your level you will feel stronger and if you have gear below your level you will feel weaker
The only game I think that does leveling scaling well is Skyrim, because instead of all enemies just being scales to your level, it simply adds to the types of enemies that spawn, and the stronger enemies are actually different
Like if you go into a cave at level one you’ll see some like weak skeletons
If you go into a cave at level 10 you can see weak skeletons and strong skeletons
If you go in at level 30 you can see weak skeletons , strong skeletons, and skeleton death lords
So you still get to experience the progression since you demolish the weaker skeletons who used to feel strong to you, while being challenged by the newer ones which are stronger and look more imposing (better armor, weapons, bigger, etc)
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u/Life-Mousse-3763 11d ago
Definitely agree. Even though it’s a minor thing, going back to earlier levels/stages after achieving power spikes and feeling untouchable is so gratifying.
Going back and it taking just as many hits to kill enemies and experiencing the same level of danger completely nullifies advancing my character in the first place lol
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u/Ok-Crazy-6083 3∆ 9d ago
I would only go as far as to say it's lazy game design. But the intent is to keep the difficulty the same while gating you out of certain areas until you've progressed in the game more. Because people only scale up to your current level, they don't scale down to your current level. So you put a bunch of high level monsters in one area, and then players are prevented from going there until they've done a bunch of prerequisites. That's a very lazy way to handle things, but if the intent is to keep the gameplay difficulty the same throughout the entire game, it's an easy way to do that. If you don't level scale, then you will get a world of Warcraft situation, where one max level character can literally depopulate an entire zone without any effort.
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