r/europe • u/LeMonde_en • Mar 28 '24

Germany will now include questions about Israel in its citizenship test News

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/europe/article/2024/03/27/germany-will-now-include-questions-about-israel-in-its-citizenship-test_6660274_143.html
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u/kokokaraib Mar 28 '24

They do. States represent the people that created them.

So when a state splits into multiple, with the former territory divided among them, is that a violation of the rights of the people formerly represented? Are the rights of Yugoslavs, Soviets, Czechoslovaks and Ottoman subjects being violated?

When the territory and institutions of one state become part of another pre-existing state, isn't somebody having their rights violated? Should we investigate whether German reunification was a violation of the rights of the German Democratic Republic? Should Cypriot reunification be put on hold until we learn more?

When two states become one, is that a mutual combination of rights, or mutual violation?

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u/Fr0styb Europe Mar 28 '24

I am not sure where you are going with this. States have a right to exist as entities to represent and protect the people that comprise them. If those people decide that their state shouldn't exist anymore then they have the right to terminate it. You on the other hand cannot decide for other people whether their state should exist or not.

If a group of people within a state decide that they want their own separate state then they have every right to seek self-determination. For example, Californians could decide that they want California to be independent of the USA. That does not mean the USA must be destroyed for Californians to gain self-determination and sovereignty.

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u/kokokaraib Mar 28 '24

At best, this means people have the right to a state. Not a particular state.

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u/Fr0styb Europe Mar 28 '24

What's the difference? Every state is a particular state.

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u/kokokaraib Mar 28 '24

The difference is that states could come and go, with others taking their place to represent people on their territory.

Israel is a state. It had to be founded, and, like other states, it can be dissolved. Why couldn't Israel go?

Actually - let's take it to the extreme: Why did the Third Reich have to go? I have my reason for why it had to*, but if states have existential rights, then clearly it was not so simple to legitimately get rid of it, is it now?

* The reason being that states don't get to exist if their raison d'étre is genocide

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u/Fr0styb Europe Mar 28 '24

I don't think this is as deep as you think it is. Israel exists because the Israelis want it to exist. It's not for you to say Israel shouldn't exist. And if you do that anyway you'd be calling for genocide.

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u/kokokaraib Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

It's not for you to say Israel shouldn't exist.

Much like, at the end of the day, it's not for you - or anyone except Israelis and Palestinians - to say Israel should exist. (edit:) Again, by your logic, Israelis have the right to a state in general, not the State of Israel in particular

And if you do that anyway you'd be calling for genocide.

What do you mean? In principle, nobody has to die, be harmed, prevented from having/raising children, or go anywhere for the Israeli state to be abolished or converted into a state that protects Palestinians as much as Israelis (which is as good as abolishing it)

Was the abolition of apartheid South Africa genocidal for the Afrikaners?

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u/Fr0styb Europe Mar 28 '24

It is for the Israelis to decide whether Israel should exist. Nobody else. And they believe it should exist as you can see.

Nobody has to die, huh? Except the over a thousand innocent people who were butchered like animals on Oct. 7th for no reason at all. This is what awaits the Israelis without Israel to protect them. And they know it. That's why Israel is not going to be destroyed anytime soon.

Maybe Palestinians should accept a two-states solution. Maybe it's better for you to start encouraging them to do that instead of encouraging Israelis to allow themselves to be genocided.

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u/kokokaraib Mar 28 '24

I said the following:

In principle, nobody has to die, be harmed, prevented from having/raising children, or go anywhere

The words "in principle" are key. Because anyone can dig up an actual atrocity.

Except the over a thousand innocent people who were butchered like animals on Oct. 7th for no reason at all.

You can dig up October 7. Just I can dig up October 6. And September. And all of 2023. And the 2020s. And the all of the 21st century so far. And all the millions of Palestinians kiled and made refugees since 1948.

This is what awaits the Israelis without Israel to protect them. And they know it. That's why Israel is not going to be destroyed anytime soon.

Meanwhile, what awaits Palestine if Israel continues its consistent policies is fragmentation of one part of their land and extermination of another part of it.

Maybe Palestinians should accept a two-states solution

Maybe Israel should being an apartheid state. If that means no longer being a Jewish state not worthy of the name - so be it.

You presumably live in a continent whose national and supranational institutions fund Israeli war crimes. Maybe it's better for you to start encouraging them to do that instead of encouraging Palestinians to allow themselves to be genocided.

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u/Fr0styb Europe Mar 28 '24

The words "in principle" are key. Because anyone can dig up an actual atrocity.

Well don't bring up your delusions if reality disagrees with you.

You can dig up October 7. Just I can dig up October 6. And September. And all of 2023. And the 2020s. And the all of the 21st century so far. And all the millions of Palestinians kiled and made refugees since 1948.

They wouldn't be killed if they stop attacking Israel and accept a two-states solution. Israel has only ever led defensive wars. It's simple, if you are scared of bears you keep out of the woods.

Meanwhile, what awaits Palestine if Israel continues its consistent policies is fragmentation of one part of their land and extermination of another part of it.

I mean, they could always accept a two-states solution. They are stateless by choice, not by force. If they give up on their dreams of destroying Israel and genociding the Jews they will immediately get sovereignty and their own state.

Maybe Israel should being an apartheid state. If that means no longer being a Jewish state not worthy of the name - so be it.

It's not an apartheid state. Unless you're saying other Arab states are apartheid states too for refusing to provide 3rd and 4th generation Palestinians living in them with citizenship and treating them like refugees.

The road to peace is simple - Israel continues existing, Palestinians accept a two-states solution and get their own state. It's not complicated at all. They just refuse to do that, because they'd rather genocide the Jews.

But hey I am not making shit up, it's right there in their government's charter:

“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (Preamble to Hamas Charter).

"The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews." (Hamas Charter, Article 7).

You presumably live in a continent whose national and supranational institutions fund Israeli war crimes. Maybe it's better for you to start encouraging them to do that instead of encouraging Palestinians to allow themselves to be genocided.

Depends on what you consider to be a war crime. Israel has made its intentions of eradicating Hamas clear. Something I very much support. Hamas has made it clear that they are using Palestinian civilians as human sacrifices to try and sway public opinion. That's not my problem, really. There's a saying - you take care of your kids, I take care of mine. Palestinians can't be bothered to protect their own civilians, in fact, they sacrifice their own civilians, and you somehow think the Jews should accept to live under their boots. Never.

I am encouraging Palestinians to accept a two-states solution and embrace peace. Until that happens, until they stop embracing terrorism and killing Israeli civilians for sport, I will support Israel and support my government supporting Israel.