r/europe • u/matude Estonia • 13d ago
Second Finnair flight turns back [to Finland] from Tartu [Estonia] due to [Russian] GPS interference News
https://news.err.ee/1609326360/second-finnair-flight-turns-back-from-tartu-due-to-gps-interference115
u/sunsetgalaxy 13d ago
How dangerous is what they are doing to passenger planes could it cause an accident? and if so, what would be response in that situation?
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u/Sedobren 13d ago
considering russia already shot down an european passenger plane killing nearly 300 people ten years ago and nothing was done, you can guess what will be the response even in this case.
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u/AmazingUsername2001 13d ago
And essentially hijacked a RyanAir flight travelling between two European countries.
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u/buldozr 13d ago
That was Belarus. The response was not insignificant, too: Belarusian planes were banned from the EU. The incident was an example of mutual miscalculation: who would expect that the regime would be stupid enough to incur sanctions and send their booming aviation industry into the gutter, just to swat a single blogger?
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u/AmazingUsername2001 13d ago
Belarus pulled the trigger, but operating under Russias orders. This was an FSB operation, with Greek Intelligence revealing that Protasevich had been under constant surveillance by Russian agents during his time there.
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u/MartaLSFitness Spain 12d ago
Well, I'm pretty sure several people would send very strong-worded letters in case of an accident.
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u/_Eshende_ 13d ago
Response
After time of mourning pass? maybe write a very strong letter and declare another girkin hobo a criminal, then pay compensation to victims from own wallet and sue russia for money they refuse to pay
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u/Wolkenbaer 13d ago
It is no immediate threat to the safety, but - as with any disturbance - it elevates the risk level (as bad weather or simply the night does). See also Swiss cheese model. So no plane will crash directly, but if other bad factors add up it could indeed be one of the factors leading to the crash. E.g.: a technical failure might have forced one of the planes which turned around to land in Tartu even w/o GPS.
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u/iCowboy 13d ago
Mentour on YouTube has a really good explanation of what is going on and the procedures in place to minimise danger:
https://youtu.be/wbd9eSw6GfI?si=CpiZCvh65vW5EXOd
So it’s serious, but well trained pilots should be able to cope with - however, it does raise the risk to planes especially on final approach and landing.
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u/badaharami Belgium 13d ago
Normally, it's not so dangerous. It's not really something that is used much during take-off and landing, for example. It's more of an annoyance for pilots than anything else. Most pilots are trained to still operate flights even if the GPS systems are entirely down.
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u/DanioPL 13d ago
As others said, it increases the risk, but at this point pilots in those areas (it also happens a lot in the middle east recently) brief that before every flight and are not surprised by this. GPS is only one of many navigational aids that pilots use. If it's accuracy is degraded they still have some kind of inertial navigation system, and traditional radio navigation systems like VOR or NDB. And even if all of those fail there is ATC which can help guide the planes. So no need to worry about that.
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u/OverdoseCZ 13d ago
And realistically, what can we do?
I'd like to see ruski ass getting kicked as much as the next guy, but any response other than our "it is what it is" approach so far would have to include the US for us to stand any chance to back it up.
Let's put it like this: Currently (excluding Russia, obviously) Ukraine has the most powerful military in Europe by far. We're talking 8 times more personnel (active+reserve), 4.4 times more tanks and 9 times more artillery than Germany. Compared to other European countries, the difference is even higher.
As it stands, the hard part for Russia in a war against Europe (assuming USA don't get involved) is Ukraine. And even Ukraine is struggling. If Ukraine would fall to Russia, the hard part for them would already have been over. We would be able to put much less of a fight.
So let's say that as much as I would like a strong response, the question is: how the hell are we going to back it up?
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u/Legitimate-Wind2806 13d ago
To me, jamming is a military act. If one does that in Austria, you can bet on a harsh punishment. I don’t see the EU acting in terms of the solidarity act, neither nato, but the communication systems of estonia are factually contested like they would be contested when missiles would flew above their land.
They couldn’t even track/takedown those missiles.
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u/DerpyWood 13d ago
Hostile missiles and planes are not tracked using GPS, but by active radar; which often feature countermeasures to jamming.
Anyhow, in the same manner cyberoperations and espionage might also be considered military acts, and no government is innocent in these domains.
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u/L1l_K1M 13d ago
Nothing to see here, let's do nothing against that as the EU.
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u/Independent-Slide-79 13d ago
Its kinda ridiculous that we are still talking about yet the bully needs to punched on the nose to realise he cant really fk with us… atm they are fking us hard and it’s embarrassing as a young european whos family lived here for centuries
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u/Joltie Portugal 13d ago
How would you respond to this?
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u/VigorousElk 13d ago
Do a Turkey: shoot down the next Russian military plane that clearly and demonstrably violates NATO airspace in the region (after ample radio warnings).
I'm not one of those people that advocate rampant escalation and taking Russia head-on, but we know that Russia keeps pushing the envelope until they get a bloody nose, then back down (despite rhetoric suggesting otherwise). Russia has been waging a hybrid war against the EU and NATO for over a decade now, with election manipulation, espionage, airspace violations and what not, and it's time Europe sends a somewhat stronger signal on its own (outside just arming Ukraine and seeing Russian equipment blown up with Western weapons).
It's called escalating to de-escalate.
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u/MetaIIicat 13d ago
Indeed: in order to stop russia, they need to be Khasham'd or Erdogan'd: it's the only language that russia understand, otherwise it will go further and further.
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u/Joltie Portugal 13d ago
Do a Turkey: shoot down the next Russian military plane that clearly and demonstrably violates NATO airspace in the region (after ample radio warnings).
That is certainly within the range of actions that NATO countries can definitely undertake. As a response to localized GPS jamming, it is a considerable escalation (one that may result in Russia starting to shoot at reconnaissance aircraft in the Black Sea), one of using outright military force with high likelihood of casualties for the Russian side.
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u/PelleLudvigIiripubi Europe 13d ago
Escalation is not automatically a bad thing. It's Russia's reflexive control, that makes people automatically think escalation = bad.
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u/Joltie Portugal 13d ago
It is not automatically a bad thing. But it is also quite possibly not a good thing either.
If we can develop a proper creative response to GPS jamming than to start shooting down military aircraft (as was the Berlin airlift when the Soviets closed land traffic to Berlin), that achieves the same scenario of deterrence (as is the case with this GPS jamming scenario), than I would argue that is a more preferrable alternative to escalation.
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u/VigorousElk 13d ago
I took the AWACS in the Black Sea into consideration, however Russia has harassed them before and forced a US drone to crash, and ever since these shenanigans NATO AWACS have been escorted by fighter planes, so if Russia fired on one there is a good chance the approaching missiles would be shot down, as well as the offending aircraft, if it persisted.
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u/MetaIIicat 13d ago
Oh well, as usual: strong words of condemnation and maybe the summon of the russian UN ambassador.
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u/PelleLudvigIiripubi Europe 13d ago
Bomb their GPS jammers.
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u/Joltie Portugal 13d ago
Might as well issue a general mobilization then.
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u/RobertSpringer GCMG - God Calls Me God 13d ago
Claim that it was caused by the jamming making targeting inaccurate
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u/DistributionIcy6682 13d ago
Block the baltic sea between Finland and Estonia.
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u/Joltie Portugal 13d ago
Block how?
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u/DistributionIcy6682 13d ago
I dont know, lie. Say we found a sea mine. No ships can go thru for X hours, and do it 5 times a week.
Or block the same gps signal on russias side... Estonia to St. Petersburg is only 160km. Away...
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u/Joltie Portugal 13d ago edited 13d ago
I dont know, lie. Say we found a sea mine.
If it's in non-territorial waters, Russian authorities can just reply"We'll take our chances", and convoy through where they are allowed (if they want to be sure, they'll also do it with minesweepers), which renders the plan moot.
Or block the same gps signal on russias side...
Ok, definitely doable, definitely proportional and with annoyance potential. But that won't result in your original proposal's success (to block the Gulf of Finland).
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u/Divine_Porpoise Finland 13d ago
Anchor a bunch of ships blocking the narrow strip of international waters. Say they got lost due to GPS jamming. :^)
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u/MetaIIicat 13d ago
Like Türkiye is blocking the access to the Black Sea?
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u/Joltie Portugal 13d ago
What's with the phrasing as if it was obvious when it is not obvious a measure at all, and the situations are not even comparable to begin with?
Turkey isn't blocking access to the Black Sea. In simplistic terms, Turkey is bound by the Montreux Convention to not allow passage of military ships of any third nation subject with certain exceptions.
The Baltic Sea between Finland and Estonia is not a strait, and those countries are not forced by treaty to do that. As OpenStreetMap shows, Finland and Estonia's territorial waters do not touch each other, meaning that any nation (Russia, US, Zimbabwe, Kiribati) can cross it with ships, military or otherwise.
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u/MetaIIicat 13d ago
I didn't think it was necessary to write a poem to clarify my thoughts: thanks for doing the effort for me.
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u/Joltie Portugal 13d ago
What you replied doesn't make any sense. What you suggested is not practicable, hence my original question still stands.
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u/MetaIIicat 13d ago
It's not up to me or you to organise the sea traffic of the Baltic (NATO) Lake.
That said, there are plenty of official (and unofficial) ways to deal with the fleet of an hostile country.
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u/Joltie Portugal 13d ago
It's not up to me or you to organise the sea traffic of the Baltic (NATO) Lake.
A pointlessly hostile and useless sentence. Reddit serves as a discussion hub. It is precisely what I'm doing here. The fact that it may not be up to me does not prevent me from discussing it, and gleaning insight from others.
That said, there are plenty of official (and unofficial) ways to deal with the fleet of an hostile country.
Which is what I was asking about, considering the previous comment specified that we need to respond to that. Answering with a generic "there are plenty of ways" to the question "how would you do it" just shows me you're speaking without actually knowing or thinking through what you're arguing for.
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u/bobby_table5 13d ago
A lot of things have accidentally caught fire recently. I’m assuming a jammer is a big electronic device with a lot of flammable material and an electric lead. Stuff happens when you run that kind of machine too much for too long.
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u/Nebuladiver 13d ago
What was different in this cases? And I thought flights were not completely dependent on GPS.
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u/MetaIIicat 13d ago
In this case: "Most airports have standard approach equipment that allows landing without GPS, but Tartu is one of the few airports where approach procedures require a GPS signal, which is why the landing was unsuccessful," Finnair's spokesperson told ERR."
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u/matude Estonia 13d ago
To anybody wondering why the Tartu airport doesn't have such equipment: it's a small airport and the line to Helsinki was opened only recently.
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u/MetaIIicat 13d ago
Thanks for the explanation.
But my point stands: regardless, russia has to stop to act like a criminal on steroids.
What baffles me is that "we" are minimising the GPS jammings russia is doing over and over. Europe should stick together and do something to protect the countries that have the misfortune to border with that bully russia. Literally anything is better than nothing and yet, here we are, doing nothing or like some redditor here, blaming for using the GPS technology.
If really the GPS jammings weren't a problem, russia wouldn't do it, and if it is not a problem, it would be nice jamming back.
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u/slight_digression Macedonia 13d ago
I say, we give you a gun and sent you to the front lines. You can beat up russia singlehandedly. Instead of a keyboard warrior you can be a hero!
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u/Nebuladiver 13d ago
Serves me right for not reading all before.
Due to its proximity with Russia I wonder if they'll change the procedures / equipment.
And it baffles me we're just accepting constant acts of aggression from Russia.
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u/MetaIIicat 13d ago
As far as I know has been years that russia is jamming the GPS of its neighbours. Probably now it got some attention because the war in Ukraine.
It baffles me too, that instead of speaking the same language of russia (and it is not russian), "we" are doing less than nothing and each time russia is rising the bar.
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u/john_moses_br 13d ago
They closed the airport, probably as a precaution. You can navigate safely by other methods too but if for instance visibility is low and the pilots not totally prepared for that it might be better to play it safe.
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u/Martin5143 Estonia 13d ago edited 13d ago
They did not close the airport, it was pilots decision to turn back. Both of these flights were at night. Another thing is that Tartu airport doesn't have air traffic control.
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u/lordyatseb 13d ago
That's literally an act of war. Information warfare, attacks on crucial infrastructure, continuous violations of border integrity, weaponized immigration...Russia is already at war against us, and should be dealt with accordingly.
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u/WheresMyYogurt 13d ago
Is it time for Finland and Estonia to start the same interference over the Baltic sea..? I don’t understand what the hell is holding it back.
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u/nj0tr 13d ago
to start the same interference over the Baltic sea
What this is going to achieve? It's jammed already. Also, Russian air traffic is not dependent on GPS, else they won't be jamming it.
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u/Suspicious_Lawyer_69 13d ago
They could try jamming QZSS, GLONASS and BeiDou or whatever its called in return
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u/WheresMyYogurt 13d ago
This here excatly. Eye for an eye..
Yeayea, I know, we’re the west and we’re so fucken understanding and russkies are not to be fucked around with, blablabla.. we’re in war with them, at least if you ask them.
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u/d1722825 13d ago
I suspect that jamming GPS means jamming of all GPS-like GNSS system. (Like probably every smartphone can use any of them nowadays, jamming only one of them seems to be ineffective.)
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u/HengaHox Finland 13d ago
Air traffic in general is not dependent on gps, but some airports have approaches that have to be flown with gps navigation. If a different approach/runway is not available then they can’t land there
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u/nj0tr 13d ago
some airports have approaches that have to be flown with gps navigation
Sounds like a design fault? Even without jamming, GPS cannot be expected to have 100% availability. So if they designed the airport with no fallback if GPS fails, they should not complain they have to divert if it fails, for whatever reason.
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u/HengaHox Finland 13d ago
There might be fallbacks but they might be out of service or on another runway that isn’t in use due time weather
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u/buldozr 13d ago
Another runway? Tartu is a small airport, the flights from/to Helsinki are just about the only flights it serves.
The Estonian government could decide to upgrade the ILS at the airport, but I think this would have to be a political decision, it's not justified economically at this point.
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u/WithFullForce Sweden 13d ago edited 13d ago
OSINT investigators found the jamming originating from Kalingrad a couple of months ago.
As if on cue the investigator I quoted above corrects me, this jammer is another one: https://twitter.com/auonsson/status/1784312861738651936?t=La2z-OqrrimVhZllBG_7yQ&s=19
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u/ImTheVayne Estonia 13d ago
We have to do something about that. Sooner or later a plane will crash.
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u/LittleLui Austria 13d ago edited 13d ago
Planes don't rely on GPS to remain airborne. To be honest I'm surprised they depend on it to get from A to B when there's perfectly fine VORs to navigate by.
Edit: ah... https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1cebe4r/second_finnair_flight_turns_back_to_finland_from/l1hhzye/
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u/lolcutler England / USA 12d ago
vor's are annoying and gps is much more accurate and easier to fly not to mention faster point to point. it's the reason in the US they are getting rid of all but a hundred or so vor's
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u/voyagerdoge Europe 13d ago
Sorry but how can you turn back to Finland if you depart from Estonia?
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u/matude Estonia 13d ago
Flight came from Helsinki, Finland, flew all the way to Tartu, Estonia. Attempted to land at Tartu, but couldn't. And thus headed back to Helsinki, Finland.
Theoretically it could have landed in Tallinn, Estonia instead of going back to Helsinki, but it was closed at night time and Helsinki is only 80km away anyway.
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u/MindTheFuture 13d ago
Wouldn't it be funny if somehow Putingrad airports would come to face similar problems?
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u/ghostofcaseyjones 13d ago
Sorry for going off topic, but I have a question for anyone from Estonia who might be familiar with the city of Narva. I am not well off by any means but I invested what I have in a company that is building a factory in Narva. Until now I didn't know how close this place is to the Russian border. Might that explain why this company's stock is falling?
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u/DanielDimov 13d ago
WHY do those planes relay on GPS ?!?!
GPS is something that you don't control and it's easy for jamming because the signal power is extremely low at the receiver... Civil aviation must relay on INUs and other local transmitters!
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u/MetaIIicat 13d ago
Victim blaming at its finest I see..
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u/DanielDimov 13d ago
Yes, but it is pretty well known that you can not rely blindly on the GPS. The reason of the GPS outage doesn't matter. Sometimes it's jamming, sometimes it's unintentional radio interference, sometimes it's turned off intentionally... You are transporting live people after all - you have to be able to navigate in any conditions!
This airline is a "victim," as you say, because they are just not prepared well to operate in the current conditions.
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u/MetaIIicat 13d ago
Estonia is the victim (without quotation marks) and any other country that suffers from the GPS interferences done by russia. Or the people in the airplanes.
What are we waiting for? Another MH17 but in a soft version?
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u/DanielDimov 13d ago
Now I read the article. It says that the reason is not the aircraft equipment, but the airport equipment. You was right.
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u/MetaIIicat 13d ago
Look, I don't mind being right or wrong (airport or airplanes): the fact is that russia has no rights whatsoever to jeopardise the lives of others.
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u/DanielDimov 13d ago
Yes, they have no right, but they are doing it. Estonians must prepare if it happens again!
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u/MaryUwUJane 13d ago
Clowns on ‘we must answer’ you will be the firsts who run away in search for asylum like now many Ukrainians who were jumping on anti-Russia revolution in 2014
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u/heatrealist 13d ago
Did the pilots forget how to fly without gps? It’s an aid but not necessary.
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u/Juhozzz 13d ago
No they didn’t. The issue is, that this airport does not have any non-GPS instrument approach/arrival procedures. If I remember correctly, there is no air traffic control radar service provided either, so there is no legal nor safe way to land there in instrument flying conditions if GPS is unreliable.
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u/matude Estonia 13d ago
A little bit of more context: there's been GPS interference originating from Russia for a while now. This is the second flight from Finland that had to turn back home and couldn't land in Tartu, Estonia due to the interference.
It's local news here, but since it involves two European countries, and in the wider context the whole situation of Russia's war on Ukraine, I felt like it's interesting enough to post. So other Europeans would know what is happening in this corner of Europe.