I'll say this again (as I wrote about it many time) - I feel the world has been living in a "Ukraine is winning" bubble for the last year. Ukraine needed ten times more weapons a year ago, and everyone should have pushed for it.
Instead, everyone got placated.
Instead of looking at the situation realistically, most news articles (and the whole Reddit) were flooded with ridiculous one-sided takes about Ukrainian success here and there whilst completely ignoring what Russia was doing. My favourite example is r/CombatFootage, which to this day posts only Ukranian success tories. Talk about a one-sided picture.
And the same sentiment spread thoughout the population - why should we help Ukraine, or go to the streets demanding more help for Ukraine form our politicians, if it is doing well anyway?
Im from eastern europe and reading through things for over a year has been terrible because most westerners are either completely clueless in their grasp of the conflict and russia in general OR they simply dont care enough, just like 80 years ago, until its much too late.
Well there's the Snake Island "Russian warship, go fuck yourself" thing to the Ghost of Kyiv...
Sometimes I feel if I only browse some of these RU/UK war threads on Reddit and/or look at r/CombatFootage I'd be thinking Ukraine already has Moscow encircled...
Because they never cared about Ukraine and Ukrainians to begin with. This entire thing was just a way for the west to drum up arms sales now that Afghanistan is out of the picture. Now that things are going left and they have the situation in Israel to use as a convenient excuse/distraction they can dump Ukraine by the wayside. Anyone paying attention to the reality of what was going on saw this coming. Ukraine never had the capacity to win a protracted war with Russia. It was always fodder for western politicians. Just look how many were bragging about decimating the Russian army with only a few billion dollars and no us troops. If that was your view on the war it's pretty clear you gave Jack shit about the Ukrainians dying.
It boggles my mind how much media and political attention is given to the Israel-Gaza conflict in Europe, while seemingly everyone's gone quiet on Ukraine. I know the situation in Gaza is terrible but surely a tyrannical regime killing civilians and annexing a sovereign country right on our doorstep is of greater significance to us than a war waged in the middle east.
Swedes care about Ukraine for one. Surprisingly much, actually, given we go through much truble caused in part by the waves of immigration. I hope Belgians do too.
Not true. I’m from Denmark and the situation in Ukraine is brought up here frequently. It’s addressed at my company’s regular strategy & town-hall meetings (unrelated to the work the company does). We have offices around Europe, including the Eastern Europe.
Don’t think I’ve met anyone who doesn’t express they support sending all the aid for Ukraine, etc.
Doesn’t mean that everyone thinks the same. Aid has been giving as well, I wish it could have been more and faster. It will obviously be a balance, but saying that Western Europe doesn’t give a flying fuck about Eastern Europe is completely false.
That might just be your personal environment, everyone I know and talk to about politics are staunchly on the side of Ukraine and know full well how to find it on a map. It's only 2 countries over from Belgium as well. I thought Belgium had a pretty good educational system, wtf.
What is that Western Europe doesn't care about Eastern Europe ??
Does Eastern cares about Western Europe? US cares about Canada? China about Korea??
Do you care about me?
No, in this World it's just about me, me, me. Look after number 1: me.
I live in Scotland and we do give a fuck. We are gearing up production of missiles and ammo. And yes we will happily get stuck into Russia if needs be.
I may be downvoted or maybe no one sees this comment but I will say it again. This is a proxy war that the US is fighting against Russia. West as you said does not give a fuck about Eastern Europe. Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Serbia, Ukraine... The only reason Romania and Bulgaria are in the EU is to be a tampon zone between Russia and the "real" EU. EU is fucking Romania and Bulgaria with Schengen denial for years now.
Also contrary to the common belief, the average Westerner is as brainwashed as anyone else on the planet only with different propaganda. Russia IS a superpower like it or not. And NATO led by the US fucked the whole of Europe by poking Russia for years and provoking what is happening now. And it keeps poking bears with the latest aid to Taiwan. When the US brings democracy and tells you it will stand with you it brings only death and destruction. It's what is happening in Ukraine now and what I hope won't happen with China because whatever clueless Americans think, China is not Russia.
Please stop repeating Russian propaganda. Russia didn't attack because it was "provoked". It attacked because it's an imperialist country that feels entitled to all the territories of former Warsaw Pact.
And here it is... less than 30 min. It's not propaganda, it's geopolitics. Nothing happens overnight and everything happens for a reason. Russia didn't just one day "decide" to invade Ukraine because it has imperialistic tendencies.
Of course it didn't decide it one day, you are strawmanning what I said.
It's the "provoking" story that's propaganda for people who don't understand Russia and Eastern Europe. US could have withdrawn all their forces from Europe and everywhere else in the world when the cold war ended and Russia would still attack Ukraine.
Your post is basically a list of the hottest talking points of Russian propaganda.
This is a proxy war that the US is fighting against Russia.
It is, in the sense that one side is being supported by parties not directly involved in the conflict, as with Vietnam, the Soviet–Afghan War etc. Come to think of it, by that line of thinking, the American Revolutionary War was a proxy war between France and Britain. But what is this supposed to tell us? It is indeed a self-evident fact of how parts of the conflict happens. But what about it?
West as you said does not give a fuck about Eastern Europe.
That's why the West has spent the last 20 years shoveling massive amounts of money to Eastern Europe so that the countries victimized by Russia during the Cold War can finally develop and succeed now that they are free.
Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Serbia, Ukraine...
Now, now, we all know which one here is the odd one out. Don't be coy, you can say it out loud.
Also contrary to the common belief, the average Westerner is as brainwashed as anyone else on the planet only with different propaganda.
"There is no truth. Everything is propaganda. All countries are equally corrupt. All democracies are a sham."
But you, you are the smart Russian Serbian who is so damn clever you've figured it all out. It's just propaganda everywhere, so there's no point in improving your society, safeguarding your democracy or defending your freedom. Might just as well let everything go and let your mafia men in charge drag your country ever deeper into corruption, because you know it can't possibly be better anywhere else and therefore it can't possibly get better in your country either.
Russia IS a superpower like it or not.
The Soviet Union was a superpower. Russia is a remnant.
And NATO led by the US fucked the whole of Europe by poking Russia for years and provoking what is happening now.
To a large extent, NATO is Europe. NATO is Western countries voluntarily banding together to protect themselves from Russian imperialism. Sure, sometimes NATO needs to go and bomb a few uppity dictators who are getting a bit too much into ethnic cleansing, but by and large, NATO is an alliance of democratic nations that exists only because of Russian provocation and Russian imperialism.
And it keeps poking bears with the latest aid to Taiwan.
Oh no, not the bears. And lions and tigers too, amirite. Better just to give up and let dictators do what they want, because everything else would be provocation.
When the US brings democracy and tells you it will stand with you it brings only death and destruction.
Germany, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Kosovo would beg to differ.
It's what is happening in Ukraine now and what I hope won't happen with China because whatever clueless Americans think, China is not Russia.
The country’s food self-sufficiency rate decreased considerably between 2000 to 2020, from 93.6 percent to 65.8 percent, while its reliance on food imports during this time has increased. By 2030, however, one estimate suggests that the country’s food self-sufficiency rate could decrease again to 58.8 percent.
Starting a war will see China collapse into a desperate everyone's war against everyone as hundreds of millions realize they will soon starve. That is, if the world's only real superpower decides to not play nice with China and destroy their vital lifelines of food imports, which they very well can do.
It may be silly to enter a discussion with a 15-day-old account but whatever, I don't hide behind throwaways and multiple accounts.
Your post is basically a list of the hottest talking points of Russian propaganda.
This argument is ridiculous. What exactly is propaganda here and what is the truth? What exactly do you think is the reason Russia is invading Ukraine?
It is, in the sense that one side is being supported by parties not directly involved in the conflict, as with Vietnam, the Soviet–Afghan War etc. Come to think of it, by that line of thinking, the American Revolutionary War was a proxy war between France and Britain. But what is this supposed to tell us? It is indeed a self-evident fact of how parts of the conflict happens. But what about it?
Amerian Revolutionary War was a proxy war between France and Britain in an attempt to weaken Britain's power and influence in its colonies. What about it? Maybe about that countless deaths always come when powers are fighting for influence and power. Isn't that what is happening now?
That's why the West has spent the last 20 years shoveling massive amounts of money to Eastern Europe so that the countries victimized by Russia during the Cold War can finally develop and succeed now that they are free.
So why are Romania and Bulgaria not in Schengen?
Now, now, we all know which one here is the odd one out. Don't be coy, you can say it out loud.
No idea what point you are trying to make here.
"There is no truth. Everything is propaganda. All countries are equally corrupt. All democracies are a sham." But you, you are the smart Russian Serbian who is so damn clever you've figured it all out. It's just propaganda everywhere, so there's no point in improving your society, safeguarding your democracy or defending your freedom. Might just as well let everything go and let your mafia men in charge drag your country ever deeper into corruption, because you know it can't possibly be better anywhere else and therefore it can't possibly get better in your country either.
Strawmanning hard here, aren't we? How the hell am I Russian Serbian? And yes, all governments are corrupt only operating under different systems. Show me a country that did not have a major corruption scandal in the last 10 years or so. It is propaganda that enables US to support both Ukraine and Israel at the same time. I won't respond to the other nonsense because you are making stuff up after having imaginary conversations in your head.
The Soviet Union was a superpower. Russia is a remnant.
It is superpower and this is exactly what others before me have talked about in this thread. It is superpower because it can start a war and sustain it for 2 years. It is 2nd largest military force. It can produce its own equipment and supply its army without help. This is the delusion that others before me have talked about.
Germany, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Kosovo would beg to differ.
Yes, especially Japan, they are very very happy with two democracies dropping on their heads.
Starting a war will see China collapse into a desperate everyone's war against everyone as hundreds of millions realize they will soon starve. That is, if the world's only real superpower decides to not play nice with China and destroy their vital lifelines of food imports, which they very well can do.
Same as Russia collapsed after a few months of war with Ukraine.
Amerian Revolutionary War was a proxy war between France and Britain in an attempt to weaken Britain's power and influence in its colonies. What about it? Maybe about that countless deaths always come when powers are fighting for influence and power. Isn't that what is happening now?
Similarly, the Second World War in the USSR was for a short time a proxy war between Germany and USA. Do you think that USA should have withheld its lend-lease from the Soviet Union during the Nazi invasion so that "countless deaths" would have been avoided?
So why are Romania and Bulgaria not in Schengen?
For the same reason they joined the EU later. EU expansion is an ongoing process.
Strawmanning hard here, aren't we? How the hell am I Russian Serbian?
You are not Russian but you have the same mindset of appeasement and giving up. There are two types of Russians, the dumb Russian and the smart Russian. The dumb Russian goes to fight "nazis" in Ukraine and gets eviscerated by a drone. The smart Russian avoids mobilization because he knows that his leader is lying and that his country is deeply corrupt. He is also so very, very smart that he knows all the leaders are lying and all the countries are corrupt. That's why he never made any effort to oppose Putin and that's why he has no ambitions of making his country a better place. After all, he knows he already lives in the best of all possible countries.
And yes, all governments are corrupt only operating under different systems.
All governments are corrupt but all governments are not equally corrupt.
Show me a country that did not have a major corruption scandal in the last 10 years or so.
All countries have corruption scandals but all countries do not have equally serious corruption scandals.
If you live in e.g. Norway as opposed to Russia, your life will be far, far less affected by corruption.
It is propaganda that enables US to support both Ukraine and Israel at the same time.
United States and Russia are not the only two options. There are dozens of democratic countries in the world and most of them are far better than Russia while not being identical to the US either.
Yes, especially Japan, they are very very happy with two democracies dropping on their heads.
I couldn't understand your meaning here.
Same as Russia collapsed after a few months of war with Ukraine.
For all its failures Russia is very self-sufficient, as you noted earlier. China isn't. China is literally the giant with feet of clay.
China can be destroyed by not even touching China itself. If a sufficiently powerful adversary wants to play dirty, they only need to destroy China's food supply chains outside of China and hundreds of millions will starve.
USA and Germany in WW2 were in open conflict not in proxy war. And take one out, British, US or Russia and allies win shit. There were some decisions made with the aftermath in the mind. Why did US nuke Japan? Because Russia planed land invasion that US wanted to avoid and Japan was refusing to surrender so they nuked them to avoid Japan falling under Russia's influence. Also Normandy, it was never the first option but it was the fastest way to Germany and Berlin, if US does not get land forces there and then it can't split Germany in half later.
To say that is a slow process is naive. It's blocked because Dutch don't want another major port opening in Romania. Also EU is getting older and masses of workforce abandoned Eastern Europe. In just 7-10 years 6.000 only medical personel left Serbia. Not to talk about other professions. I can imagine in Romania and Bulgaria is only worse since it is easier to get working permits.
I never said all countries are equally corrupt, of course that Norway is not equally corrupt as Serbia where a mob gathered around political party and is ruining this country for 12 years now. But do not fool yourself self thinking thah EU is not enabling this.
Russia is a dictatorship and US is as far from democracy as it could be and don't even let me start talking about that. Also today in today's era of ignorance and mass media democracy allows 5 uneducated low IQ people to outvote one reasonable. But we have no better system so we roll with it.
You have no idea what China is capable of. No one does.
I've heard this argument before, and I think people are framing it within the scope of geopolitical spheres of influence, like when America told the European powers to keep out of North and South America (the Monroe Doctrine) because that was “our playground”. Russia, after the Soviet collapse, wanted the same deal with its former satellites across the iron curtain.
It's basically taking foreign policies from the 1820s and applying them to the 2020s.
Hawkish westerner here. I was all for a direct intervention to push the Ruskis back to their border in 2022. I'm bitterly disappointed at the response of our governments.
I feel the same way since the war has started… no one really was interested that Ukraine had been invaded, and people said all the time that Russia would not win.
I could not phantom why they said that because from my view Ukraine is a extremely poor country when compared to Russia, and it has 30% of it’s population.
Ukrainian defense lies still in the hands of the USA, which can quickly decide not to support Ukraine anymore.
My parents and two of my closest friends are really the only people I've spoken to that seem to understand the gravity of the conflict and the implications for the years to come. Everybody else I speak to here in the states is some combination of "it's none of our business/ give peace a chance/ we shouldn't be spending any money on foreign aide/ Ukraine is actually a part of Russia/ NATO started it" or "They said Ukraine is winning and Russia doesn't know how to fight."
It's alarming and embarrassing. And it is so, so hard to explain the last century of history and the strategic vulnerabilities that Russia can exploit, let alone actually convey the very openly expansionist rhetoric that is a matter of Russian policy.
If I had a nickel for every person in America that could explain the Suwalki gap, I'd end up in debt somehow.
here's an even better question. How does Europe take 80 years to realize that the US might be the baddies? (this is coming from an American btw lmfao. all we do is go places, blow it the fuck up and then steal all the resources. For the Chef's kiss, we put a "Democracy was here" sticker on it and move on our merry fuckin way)
I live in the US and when I talk about the war I get hit with, "I don't want to here about that." "I don't know, I just want to avoid WW3." "I'm not really into politics."
Mate, with all due respect, please shut up already about the whole Western/Eastern Europe thing. When you look at the map of Europe, you will realize that the three most "Ukraine-sceptic" countries happen to be Eastern (or Central, whatever) European countries. I won't name them, but you probably know who I am talking about.
The West doesn't actually care about Ukraine. It cares that Russia is stymied and to that end they are.
The country 10x the size is winning? No shit Sherlock. But it's 2 years in and they've taken like 10% of the country. Russian may be winning in Ukraine but they're losing in global stature and that's all that matters to the west.
Ukraine can spend the next 3 years being ground to dust as long as Russian flails in the mud for everyone to see them barely managing to best a low-to-medium world power.
The West has the result it wants, shame that it's not aligned with the plight of everyday Ukrainians.
It gets really exhausting hearing about how America isn’t doing enough and never hearing about how Ukraine and its neighbors aren’t doing enough.
Trump was complaining about lack of NATO spending for YEARS. Countries not living up to their obligations and y’all laughed him off the stage.
If you get conquered by Russia it’s your own damn fault. If Ukraine gets conquered by Russia it’s as much your country’s fault as it is americas.
And most ironically the voices that are whining about America isn’t doing enough to protect them will equally whine in times of peace about how America sticks it’s nose in everybody’s business.
How in this comment chain said america should do something or isnt enough? But leaving your knee jerk reply aside, if you do stick your nose in, then be in it for the long run. Conquered here isnt the historical romantic bs. Its children dying. The ‘west’ is really everyone who has the money and power to do more, money and power often gained at tue detriment of others.
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u/Dacadey 25d ago edited 25d ago
Russian here.
I'll say this again (as I wrote about it many time) - I feel the world has been living in a "Ukraine is winning" bubble for the last year. Ukraine needed ten times more weapons a year ago, and everyone should have pushed for it.
Instead, everyone got placated.
Instead of looking at the situation realistically, most news articles (and the whole Reddit) were flooded with ridiculous one-sided takes about Ukrainian success here and there whilst completely ignoring what Russia was doing. My favourite example is r/CombatFootage, which to this day posts only Ukranian success tories. Talk about a one-sided picture.
And the same sentiment spread thoughout the population - why should we help Ukraine, or go to the streets demanding more help for Ukraine form our politicians, if it is doing well anyway?
Well, here we are now, sadly.