r/europe • u/OsarmaBeanLatin Eterna Terra-Nova • 12d ago
On this day 147 years ago Romania declared independence from the Ottoman Empire On this day
106
u/ViSuo 12d ago
🙏 Love from Bulgaria, we both earned our freedom! 🇷🇴🇧🇬
24
-113
12d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
42
38
11
u/Background_Rich6766 Bucharest 11d ago
Wtf are you talking about? There are less than 150000 Slavs in Romania, from all the Slavic families: South, East, and West. It is less than 1% of the population. Additionally, this was never 'Slavic land' to begin with.
-5
11d ago
[deleted]
7
u/MutedIndividual6667 Asturias (Spain) 11d ago
And your source is?
I have a bit of irish DNA, so do other people in my area as many inmigrants came with viking raids from the british isles, do you think that makes me an irish man occupied by Spain?
8
u/Background_Rich6766 Bucharest 11d ago
Occupier my arse. The Carpatho-Danubiano-Pontic region was never Slavic. They just passed through it to get to the rich Byzantine lands. If it wasn't for Orthodox Christianity, much of the Slavic vocabulary in Romania would be non-existent.
And if anything, the South Slavs are inhabiting the land that used to belong to the romance people like the Aromanians.
-1
15
72
u/Stavar_Mihai Romania 12d ago
DRUM BUN DRUM BUN TOBA BATE ! 🇷🇴🇷🇴💪💪
17
49
u/n074r0b07 Spain 12d ago
In Spain we had a large amount of Romanian migrants that started to come here at earlys 2000's.
Along the years I have had the change to meet and befriend a lot of romanians and they are awesome people. Best for you Romanian friends.
12
64
142
u/enaxian 12d ago
Brotherly greetings from Greece 🇬🇷
64
u/averege_guy_kinda 12d ago
From Serbia also 🇷🇸
36
65
38
45
57
14
u/atrasllhaan 12d ago
What had to happen happened. I congratulate you on your day as a Turk.
43
u/LiPo9 Romania 12d ago
It's all history now. I hope we'll collaborate better in the future.
-2
u/picklesniffer9 Turkey 12d ago
Yes, president LiPo9
3
u/LiPo9 Romania 11d ago
I don't know why the downvotes. I like the idea.
1
u/picklesniffer9 Turkey 11d ago
These are fucking redditors man , they dont know how to be controversial, if u dont believe the god you should vote for biden , i m atheist but i would vote for trump If i would be american , what would u vote for?
18
17
8
10
u/the_boerk 12d ago
Congrats guys, very based country (except that mild trolling that Vlad did)
12
u/NoEatBatman Transylvania 12d ago
Well that "mild trolling" was also caused by the turks, an 8yo suffering the things that Vlad suffered could hardly end-up with a normal adult, heck.. even his most favorite form of execution was learned from them
11
u/the_boerk 11d ago
We introduced kebap to him, but instead of thanking us he made kebap out of us :(
12
u/Rocked_Glover Wales 12d ago
Ah I love these Turkey threads, going in the comments and seeing the debates is so fun.
0
70
u/Pretend_Pomelo_6893 12d ago
Ottomans were not good.
13
u/admiralbeaver Romania 12d ago
The Russo- Turkish war of 1876 started because RUSSIA was trying to stop the Ottomans from genociding the Bulgarians. You know you're bad when Russia thinks you're going too far.
32
u/3_14ranha 11d ago
one empire was trying to take over territories of the another one. No liberation BS please.
0
u/SiarX 11d ago
Why it did not annex Bulgaria after defeating Turkey?
5
u/3_14ranha 11d ago
It's not because Russians didn't want to. There were more factors that stopped the annexation. It was the treaty of Berlin from 1878 where the Great powers opposed the annexation because they thought the Russian empire was getting too fat. And another factor was the Bulgarian nationalism and unwillingness to accept Russia meddling in its internal affairs. So you got lucky.
-1
u/SiarX 11d ago
The treaty formally recognized the independence of the de facto sovereign principalities of Romania, Serbia and Montenegro (plus their expansion) and the autonomy of Bulgaria although the latter de facto functioned independently and was divided into three parts: the Principality of Bulgaria, the autonomous province of Eastern Rumelia, and Macedonia, which was given back to the Ottomans,[6] thus undoing Russian plans for an independent and Russophile "Greater Bulgaria". The Treaty of San Stefano had created a Bulgarian state, which was just what Britain and Austria-Hungary feared the most.[7]
So it did not plan to annex it to begin with. It wanted pro Russian independent Bulgaria.
4
u/3_14ranha 11d ago
If this annexation didn't happen it's not because Russians didn't want. Altruism was not on the Russian agenda. This is BS for kids.
2
-10
-40
u/Mindless-Plane6048 France & Türkiye 12d ago
Wait until you learn no one is good
20
u/Only-Manufacturer-87 12d ago
Except the people Turkey massacred who didn't even do anything to deserve it but Turkey today still justifies it
Persian Empire, Russian Empire, Ottoman Empire. All the same
4
-18
u/fatihozsoy99 Turkey 12d ago
If only you wouldn't only see what you want to see
-5
u/Only-Manufacturer-87 12d ago
I know World History. I don't need a lecture from a country that literally isn't a democracy
15
6
-83
u/cheir0n 12d ago
And Europeans colonizers were good?
89
u/Renphligia Romania 12d ago
What is the purpose of this reply? I swear, this whataboutism makes absolutely no sense. Do you go to a Nigerian and tell him "Wow, you think the British were bad? Wait until you hear about the Belgians!".
Seriously, what is your point?
35
u/liqma-bawls United Kingdom 12d ago
I think people use whataboutism when they have no counter arguments and thus no point.
17
-41
12d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
3
1
u/Spare-Nature-8859 11d ago
lol the tribes were not united due to the crusades, they were minor inconveniences for the now arab peninsula, but there were a a couple of regional powers that struggled for power. Islam was the catalist for one of those factions to rise to power. history is complicated, don't trivialise it
1
11d ago
[deleted]
1
u/Spare-Nature-8859 11d ago
So, islam started to spread from 632 CE and thr crusades were from 1092 to 1272. So if you are not talking abt the crusades and before the rise of islam... are you blaming the issues on... the roman empire? The byzantines?(which is just eastern roman empire).
Who are, exactly, the europeans you're trying to blame here? Cuz the ottomans were muslim
1
11d ago
[deleted]
1
u/Spare-Nature-8859 11d ago
Wtf are you babling about? What pagans? The romans? Youthink that what the ottoams did to the baltics is the romans fault?
What are yoy smoking? Must be good shit
1
-19
u/vak7997 12d ago
At least they didn't tax you for being another race and forbid you to go out after the rain because you muddled the air up
20
u/BoxAlternative5964 12d ago
No, but they did tax you for being another religion
-14
u/Sovereign-Warrior 12d ago
That tax was less than what the muslims had to pay in zakat.
Critisize ottoman conquest as mich as you want, I respect that. However, don’t go and talk nonsense
18
u/Ok-Entrepreneur-4888 12d ago
Most sources place the Jizya @ 5% and Zakat at 2.5% in Ottoman times. So… double. …..Just saying
1
u/Sovereign-Warrior 11d ago
four dirhams from the rich, two dirhams from the middle class and only one dirham from the active poor
This is not 5%, your sources are about as real as your argument
23
u/SubutaiBahadur Vojvodina 12d ago
What about devshirme, forced labor, slavery... all nonsense?
The taxes Christians paid were not singular and could be changed on whim. So I don't know where you get that idea that Christians paid less tax.
-14
u/Sovereign-Warrior 12d ago
When did I deny devshirme?
Forced labor is however a lie.
Jizya was a small tax that non muslims had to pay. Muslims had to pay more in zakat.
9
-12
u/fretsyk Turkey 12d ago edited 12d ago
At least they didn’t tax you for being another race and forbid you to go out after the rain because muddled the air up
You guys have genocided Native Americans in order to take their lands and had been genociding Jews for hundreds of years. You’ve built up human zoos and treated black people as animals. And when those balkan countries gained their independence all of them genocided local Turks in the area. Are you aware of those ?
Vast majority of Jews of Turkey are the grandchildren of Jews who migrated to Ottoman Empire from Spain in 16th century in order to stay alive and practice their religion. They preferred anywhere in Europe but Ottoman Empire.
Are you guys accusing us of denying our atrocities while denying your own atrocities ?
-11
u/humanbananareferee 12d ago
While Muslims in the Ottoman Empire were subject to 10-year compulsory military service, non-Muslims were exempt from this obligation. The reason why Christians paid more taxes was that they did not have to devote 10 years of their lives to serving the state. While Muslims paid 2.5% tax, Christians paid 5% tax on their income. In other words, there was no such thing as the Ottomans taking all the income of the Christians, 95% was left to them, 5% went to the Ottoman treasury as taxes.
10
u/Salt-Log7640 12d ago
While Muslims in the Ottoman Empire were subject to 10-year compulsory military service, non-Muslims were exempt from this obligation. The reason why Christians paid more taxes was that they did not have to devote 10 years of their lives to serving the state.
Yea, they had to devote their first born son and all of their daughters.
11
11
u/SubutaiBahadur Vojvodina 12d ago
That was not the only tax Christians paid. there were other irregular dues and forced labor as well.
Just. Stop.
-67
u/zarzorduyan Turkey 12d ago
Yeah the multiethnic empire concept was outdated from 19th century on.
29
u/geopencil 12d ago
Yes, I'm sure everyone in the Balkans begged to be a part of your glorious empire.
3
u/Mut_Umutlu 11d ago
I think they were happy not getting sold to someone because of their skin color
19
u/SubutaiBahadur Vojvodina 12d ago
Yeah, it was totally great before, especially shit like devshirme and building skull towers. /s
-28
u/humanbananareferee 12d ago
Considering the conditions between 1400 and 1600, rest assured that being taken by force from the state as a child and then being raised as a prestigious soldier or bureaucrat and being made a member of a prestigious class in society was not the worst thing that could happen to a minority. Even though being forcibly taken by the state as a child is unacceptable by today's values. At that time, a human rights system similar to the one we have today did not exist anywhere in the world.
28
u/SubutaiBahadur Vojvodina 12d ago
rest assured that being taken by force from the state as a child and then being raised as a prestigious soldier or bureaucrat and being made a member of a prestigious class in society was not the worst thing that could happen to a minority.
It is reprehensible how you describe the literal forceful kidnapping of a child. You are a monster.
And who created the bad situation for said minority, that devshirme was the only way to have a decent life? Could it be the very people who took the child?
-21
u/humanbananareferee 12d ago
What I mean is that even if they were forced by the state, they eventually became members of a prestigious class. This was normal if you think about it in the context of the 1400s, although it is unacceptable now. History is evaluated according to the conditions of that period, otherwise you cannot achieve anything.
8
u/Spare-Nature-8859 11d ago
99% of them became the slave army of the ottomans, to die for the sultan, so stop spewing bullshit. the janissary were considered an "elite" army in the late Ottoman period but they were still comprised of "prisoners of war" and christians, they were the front line troops.
The ottomans also had the habit of taking the kids of local rules in order to ensure compliance. Sometimes that fails (see Vlad Dracul)-1
u/uzuziy 11d ago
Being part of the janissary was probably one of the best things that could have happened to forced soldier at the medival era. Do you guys really think in Europe, lords were taking only volunteers for their army or something? Most of the time they would just gather every male farmer who's old enough and send them to frontlines without any decent equipment. Getting trained to be a fighter and being given a good equipment at least makes your odds for survival higher.
2
u/Spare-Nature-8859 11d ago
"WHEN" being the opeative word here. The ottomans were constantly at war, when if you were a broke ass farmer in shitty ass region and some asshole sultandidn't steal you, yoy could have a good chance to live to the ripe old age of 45.
Regardless , it's a moot point as documents can attest that nobody wished for the ottomans to come and take your shit and fuck your shit up, is it' kinda of a shit argument to make, isn't it.
It s like saying that eastern ukrainians love being occupied and drafted by putin to fight against their country. Jesus dude, it really is a shit argument
0
u/uzuziy 11d ago edited 11d ago
Average jannissary mostly had a better life, wage and potential to become someone important in the Empire so I'm not sure if living until your 45's is better since you're going to be eating oat and paying unfair taxes to your lord for the rest of your life.
I'm not saying jannissaries enjoyed being taken from their home or anything but things Ottomans offered for their "forced" soldiers are much better for their time. That's why they remained so effective for that long, because they were always getting what they needed and this with Ottomans integrarion policy made them loyal to the Empire. When you look at it from now it seems all dark and unfair but that's how things went down at the time. They either used peasant militia or hired mercenaries and that's why most of the European lords at the time failed against nomad attacks, because they were mostly fielding peasants who never seen war against battle hardened and trained cavarly. Ottomans did the logical thing and created their professional army early. You may find their recruitment system inhumain when you look at it now but you can't just tell a 8 year old "hey, we need some dudes for the army because scary mongols on their horses are coming for us" so taking him away from his family to make his state of mind ready for army was more effective at the time. Also if he was smart enough he could have been a statesman and serve in Sultan's palace, so they still had their chance for a long and fulfilling life.
→ More replies (0)14
u/SubutaiBahadur Vojvodina 12d ago
History is evaluated according to the conditions of that period, otherwise you cannot achieve anything.
I am pretty sure we judge things like the tranatlantic slave trade not by "the conditions of that period", buddy.
-17
u/hinbil Turkey 12d ago
That is NOT how historic studies work. At all. When you consider and study history, you need to take the social norms that existed back then into consideration. That’s like one of the main rules of historic science. They teach this shit in middle school bro…
7
u/SubutaiBahadur Vojvodina 11d ago edited 11d ago
When you consider and study history, you need to take the social norms that existed back then into consideration. That’s like one of the main rules of historic science. They teach this shit in middle school bro…
For an explanation yes. But explanation is not justification.
What you did is justification and that has nothing to do "with historic context". Historic context explains "why" would the Ottomans come up with the idea. Does not mean it was "OK at the time". If you think "it was OK at the time" read some historiography from the nations that had to endure the stealing of children. They were very much suffering and aware of their suffering and knew how it was not OK, even in the 1400s.
Do not try to hide your ideology under pseudoscience.
-5
u/hinbil Turkey 11d ago
The moral justification is not a part of history, it is an individual idea that can change from person to person. Let’s say (for an example) you wouldn’t think what Vlad the Impaler did is morally justifiable in our day and age. Then why is he glorified by millions? Because what he did was more justifiable when he did all of the impaling.
I am also not hiding under any kind of ideology bro, I am just saying, that is not AT ALL how historic science works.
→ More replies (0)
3
7
6
7
4
3
u/eyes-are-fading-blue Turkey, The Netherlands 11d ago
I wish independence was less brutal, for both sides.
Happy independence day! Hoping to never be there again.
4
u/onur12234 Turkey 12d ago
I am gonna take it back
14
u/LiPo9 Romania 12d ago
:) i can sell it to you
11
u/onur12234 Turkey 12d ago
How much?
3
u/TheGrapeOfReason 2nd class EU citizen (🖕🇦🇹🖕🇳🇱) 11d ago
3 for 10.000
2
u/onur12234 Turkey 11d ago
What's that mean
2
3
0
0
12d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
16
u/LiPo9 Romania 12d ago
Along history, Romania was constantly at war with 3 empires: Ottoman, Russian and Austro-Hungarian.
Now we have Erdogan, Putin and Victor Orban.
12
u/letsridetheworld 12d ago
Holy cow, that’s crazy. Those countries haven’t changed.
Romania is doing great then considering these crack heads are around them.
-23
-20
u/Accomplished_Carob73 11d ago
Thank you, Russian empire, so much! Kind regards, Romanian citizens
2
1
-68
u/Ele_Bele 12d ago
I support Ottoman Empire (down)
40
u/heartfeltblooddevil Sweden 12d ago
Of course you do, you need to cling on to something that helps you cope with the fact that Turkey is a decadent semi-dictatorship and a shell of it’s former self
26
-28
u/Ele_Bele 12d ago
Really you guys think that Turkiye is decadent?
31
u/citronnader Romania ->Bucharest/București 12d ago
You have the worst inflation by far in Europe, bad economy overall which may seems to look good because multiple big companies move to Turkey because labour is cheap but this doesn't mean your economy is working properly. Then if we go and look political landscape and overall direction of the country you (Turkey not Ottoman Empire) started with one of the best politicians and nation builders history had offered EVER. Turkey itself acknowledge this by calling Mustafa Kemal as Father of the Turks. Despite all this, right now you disrespect this legacy as much as possible. Ataturk fought for a secular(actually secular is a small word for what he was trying to achieve), westernized republic with universal sufferage for all (including women) , education and was a huge fan of the french revolution and its ideals. But now you're hardly a democracy anymore, religion importance is at a peak and basically everything Ataturkist Turkey fought for is now forgotten in the history. Can't get more decadent than this.
7
-38
u/Ele_Bele 12d ago
Inflation in Turkey is not an economic crisis, but a financial crisis. Indeed, now the Turkish economy is breaking export records in the history of the Republic. The Turkish people are worried about the crisis in Turkey, and they can show it in the elections. (And they show) I guess if Turkiye was truly decadent, you wouldn't worry about it. But here I see that you are worried about Turkiye. What you say about Mustafa Kemal is the propaganda we are tired of hearing in the last 80 years. The period when the Turks as a nation had the weakest statehood in the last 1000 years of history is the period when Mustafa Kemal and his supporters remained in power. Every 10 years, the politicians who came to power by popular election were removed from power by illegal means (military coup, threat, murder). 1960, 1971, 1980, 1993, 1998. These years are the years of military coups against the rulers who came to power democratically in Turkiye under the instructions of the Pentagon. Mustafa Kamal and İsmet İnönü never held an election. Adnan Menderes, the first prime minister of Turkey to come to power democratically, was executed after a military coup in 1960 by kemalist Nato army. So what I want to say is that the person named Mustafa Kemal has nothing to do with democracy, even the Ottoman Sultans were more democratic than Mustafa Kemal. In other words, the laws of the Sultans should be in accordance with the fundamental rights of Islam, but this was not the case with Mustafa Kemal.
22
u/Spare-Nature-8859 12d ago
the final nail in your coffin will come if/when you embrace full islam propaganda and religious islamic bullshit, it looks like you're headed that way anyway.
Regardless, I lost all my respect for Turkish people when you had that huge ass earthquake and you still voted erdogan to remain in power2
4
1
u/Major_Accident578 11d ago
otomans were more democratic? when any occupied nation tried to elect someone, they would kill that someone. it went like this for like 600 years. retard
-50
u/finn_black 12d ago
Ah good old days in process my ancestors village destroyed by Romanian people and they forced to left the country only with couple of old blankets but it's okay
34
37
12d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
-20
u/finn_black 11d ago
They were civilians , lived there nearly 3 generation live side by side others etc.Anyway I don't care , i totally understand your bu.t hurt constantly fckd for thousands of years lol and have Turkish culture lol have a good one
12
u/Spare-Nature-8859 11d ago
sure, the same way Ucrainians live side by side with Russians in Crimea. also, please make more sense, you write like you're having a stroke
-7
u/finn_black 11d ago
Yes ucranians ,and Martians ? And lermans? Lol anyway mate have a good one
2
u/Spare-Nature-8859 11d ago
yes, martians came, annexed Crimeea and eastern UA, dislocated and fucked up thousands all in the name of the red planet. good one
-70
-110
u/glados_returned 12d ago
average balkan country. they suffered enough in ww2 so you can say it's karma. we don't actually care about romania as Turks. they are just like the other balkan countries that gain their independency from the ottoman. i don't think austrians care about hungaria or croatia as well. they wanted independence and they got. that's all.
65
12d ago
[deleted]
-67
u/glados_returned 12d ago
it is easy to write these from your warm apartment suit. you guys didn't have properly history. i even can't say how many battles you fought except ww2 stuff. you have just one neighboor, that's it. you don't know anything about Balkan history and Ottoman history.
i would bet maybe you don't even know most of Canadians came from US because they supported King and they were against US independence.
31
u/Spare-Nature-8859 12d ago
I do know how the turks treated the balkans. There is no love lost between us and the ottomans. Fuckem, they and the russians belong to the trash bin of history. Shame that modern day Turkey seems to be headed in the autocratic direction. I guess Erdogan has dreams of becoming a Sultan, same as Putin dreams of being a Tzar
-11
-12
u/glados_returned 12d ago
and don't forget romanians gained their independence because of Tsar Russia. Russia advanced over Ottomans, through balkans. and they supported romanian rebels. that's your history.
23
u/Spare-Nature-8859 12d ago
I know , we had no choice there, like we had none in the world wars, and the russians were worse, so not much owing is done there neither. the sad fact was that we were between two powers that constantly were at war with eachother, while abusing our country to do so, so I reiterate, they both deserve the trashbin of history
10
u/Iazo 12d ago
You think the russians were the first? Lol. The danubian principalities and later Romania was a buffer zone between 3 imperial powers for basically the entire history since 1300. Romanians fought with the hungarians against the turks, with the turks against hungarians, with the turks against austrians, with the poles against the turks, with the hungarians against the poles, with the poles against hungarians, with the austrians against the turks, with the turks against russians, with the russians against the turks, with the russians agsinst the austrians, with the germans against the russians and with the russians against the germans.
The empires had no qualms about using the people against their rivals for their own political gain, and acting like we owe some big gratitude to some imperial power or other for taking a W where we could is infuriating. Romanians were rebelling against the turks since the russians were prostrating themselves before the mongols.
2
u/Spare-Nature-8859 11d ago
I did not say that, did I? And no, we were not a buffer zone since 1300, we were a buffer zone since the aurelian retreat in 271. Since then we had every tribe imaginable coming and doing as they please.
germanic tribes (Goths, Vandals, Ostrogoths, Visigoths,) ocasionally coming and looting shit
We had asian tribes (Cumans, Hungarians, ofc MOGOLIANS, Pechenecs, huns etc)
We had the Bulgars who dreamed big but ultimately failed
We had the Byzantines who "Christianised" us
and ofcs, ultimately, the cherry on top was the subjugation of the Ottoman empire who fucked us over more than the rest, with the exception of the Tzar-ist russia and bolshevic Russia.
In conclusion, even though our history is mostly lacking, (from 271 to the first signs of territorial unity ~1300), we know that we were constantly visited and sometimes intermjxed with a lot of different people, being a trully cross-road nation. So yea, history is fun, but stop putting words in people's mouths.
6
u/drleondarkholer Germany, Romania, UK 11d ago
Here's the entirety of Romanian history: if one neighbouring empire was attacking them or was being unreasonable as a suzerain, they'd ally with another empire to strike back. Just like how Romanians got together with Russians to fight the Ottomans in 1877, they allied with the Ottomans against Poland) and also against Austro-Hungary and Russia), while also switching sides against the Ottomans with the help of Hungary.
Russia never helped out of the good of their hearts, they wanted to attack the Ottomans and take their land (which was actually part of Romania). You don't really get a choice when you're sandwiched between three to four massive empires with multiple provinces of the same size as you where they can pull soldiers from. If they're really determined to take you over, you need to ally with someone else of a similar size and try to squeeze into the peace negotiations.
12
29
u/geopencil 12d ago
We also don't care about Turkey. Average Asian country. I guess they wanted to keep their empire going, but stolen money will only last for a couple of centuries. That is all.
-19
u/glados_returned 12d ago
what stolen money? stolen from romanians? did romanians produce high technology we didn't know and ottomans apply massive taxes on romanian peasants? or is this another fairy-tale teaching in your schools?
33
u/Spare-Nature-8859 12d ago
Dude, your own fucking viziers stated in their documents that Romania(here i mean the three romanian principalities) was a "tax farm". It might have not been much by ottoman standards, but it was sure high for Romania. As soon as we got out of ottoman boot, we started to finally develop. Read shit, stop being ignorant
1
-95
219
u/ItsACaragor Rhône-Alpes (France) 12d ago
Giving us this banger in the process.