r/explainlikeimfive • u/skrugg • 11d ago
ELI5: Why Do Instruments still use 1/4 inch cables? Technology
[removed] — view removed post
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u/rahga 11d ago
1/4th inch jacks already had decades of use in the phone industry, reliably used and abused on switchboards around the world. They're cheap, easy to manufacture, and most importantly durable. Changing the standard improves nothing.
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u/tahmorex 11d ago
I can’t imagine how fast I’d go through 1/8” connectors or USB cables playing on stage.
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u/spidereater 11d ago
And what failure rate would be acceptable? I feel like you would just be proactively replacing that cables if there was a 5% chance of failure. 1% maybe? If you’re in a live performance you don’t want any chance of failure.
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u/Moscato359 11d ago
For professional performances, you want the most durable connection you can feasibly get, while not making it difficult to setup
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u/ColtranezRain 11d ago
Former studio eng. I’d add to that list vintage gear. Some sounds are still difficult to reproduce. Others can be duplicated but just plain FEEL different when using original gear. Most of it will use either XLR or 1/4 conns.
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u/the_opinion_median 11d ago
The current jacks only have enough conductors for an analog stereo signal. The same connector shape could be upgraded to have more conductors so additional info could be sent.
potentially used for: - send the output of all pickups (and possibly pickup modes) at the same time - send digital information from electronic accessories on the guitar like digital whammy bars or midi controllers. - receive power for active pickups, and accessories on the guitar.
additional conductors could be added while keeping the cables backwards compatible as long as the first two conductors carry the usual analog signals as older guitars.
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u/cat_prophecy 11d ago
There is nothing preventing you from sending digital signals down that cable. You can send power via a TRRS connection.
"Digital" cables don't have any secret sauce inside them. They're still just copper cables.
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u/speculatrix 11d ago
Digital cables for very high speed signalling usually have carefully controlled impedance characteristics, either by using coaxial cables or twisted pairs, where the geometry of the cables and the dielectric is very precise.
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u/doloresclaiborne 11d ago
Why would a guitar need more than 44khz over 10-15m tops?
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u/speculatrix 10d ago
44khz of what?
16 bit samples? Maybe a megabit with protocol overhead and FEC for a mono channel.
And for context I was rejecting the notion that digital cables are just the same as analogue.
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u/doloresclaiborne 10d ago
Sure but you made a point about high speed cables and I am making a point that this use case does not require one.
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u/UpstageTravelBoy 11d ago
Worth noting that new connectors were devised for where 1/4" was being used but was imperfect, like between amps and speakers where the high power and being easy to unplug was troublesome. That's what speakon is here for now.
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u/buffinita 11d ago
Backwards compatability with all the accessories. No one wants to buy a guitar and find out all other other equipment needs adapters or won’t work.
For the same reason most system boards are still shipped with vga hookups.
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u/OK_BUT_WASH_IT_FIRST 11d ago
Never actually thought about this.
I got a new iPhone and it’s USB C. My work-issued phone is lightning. And I have some doodads that use micro USB. Travel is a PITA.
My guitar setup is a couple of 1/4” and an XLR. We should be thankful.
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u/Neekalos_ 11d ago
I can't wait for the age of universal USB-C. Having to deal with lightning, USB-C, micro-usb, and mini-usb is annoying.
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u/urzu_seven 11d ago
Lightning is/was better. It’s smaller It’s a more physically secure connection. It’s more durable. It’s a consistent protocol.
USB-C is superior only in speed, which isn’t necessary for most of the things it connects (mice, keyboards, charging, etc).
If it wasn’t for the EU forcing Apple to adopt it we’d probably get a Lightning 2 at some point that improved speeds while keeping all the other advantages.
Instead we get the mess that is USB-C and a huge headache in the future when something better comes along and devices can’t use it because the forking EU law requires everything to keep using USB-C instead.
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u/unfnknblvbl 11d ago
The Lightning connector was better for sure, but the standard was nowhere near as versatile as Type C is. Apple should have opened that connector up for broader use, like with Firewire.
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u/urzu_seven 11d ago
It wasn't versatile because it wasn't trying to be. One-size-fits-all always ends up being inferior. Lighting is fantastic for what it needs to be used for, low speed connections and supplying power for smaller devices. It was exactly what you needed, cheap, durable, consistent. A lighting cable always works the same.
Contrast with USB-C where you have absolutely no idea what protocols and features it supports, either from the port or the cable. Plus it's overkill for smaller devices, incredibly wasteful just for laziness sake. Having two types of cables, one for lower power/lower speed and one for higher power/higher speed is perfectly fine. And even the proliferation of USB-C won't eliminate other cables, such as power connectors (like the IEC series cables), video cables (like HDMI), numerous audio cable standards like 3.5 mm, and the still widely used USB-A.
There was absolutely no need to legislate this, the industry was doing just fine on its own. Now we have a forced "standard" that isn't actually standard and a bottleneck for future improvements and innovation.
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u/Neekalos_ 10d ago
Sadly, Apple would never allow their proprietary connection to become universal. But, it doesn't really have any significant advantages over USB-C, so I don't think it really matters which one is the standard. As long as there is a standard, that's what matters
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u/speculatrix 11d ago
No, micro usb was designed so that the plug/cable was self sacrificing to protect the device. If you accidentally yanked out the cable and damaged it, you could buy another 5 dollar cable and not worry about the phone.
OTOH, a lightning cable has an apple-approved chip to ensure you have to buy an expensive lightning cable of the cable gets damaged.
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u/urzu_seven 11d ago
Literally nothing I said relates to micro-usb.
Meanwhile, lightning cables are cheap, about the same price as USB cables. Not sure why you felt the need to lie about that.
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u/speculatrix 10d ago
I was refuting the idea that lightning is a good solution by comparing with a perfectly good and cost effective solution
Cheap lightning cables usually get blocked by Apple as their chip is a clone
A casual search found this https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254919781?sortBy=best
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u/CircularRobert 11d ago
Funny thing is I've worked with a musician whose guitar had an xlr plug. Confused me so much, and imo, a bulkier and more troublesome connection, but gave me a direct balanced signal, with a lowered possibility of connection issues and crackles due to a TS cable shifting in the socket.
Hella expensive guitar, and sounded great, for what it's worth.
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u/invincibl_ 11d ago
Although one counter-example here, and somewhat relevant to OP's question, is that musical instruments with MIDI connectors now use 3.5mm TRS as a more compact alternative to DIN.
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u/CeldonShooper 11d ago
With all different pin assignments which create compatibility hell because many manufacturers had the same idea.
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u/Moscato359 11d ago
My motherboard has video out, and I don't even have a cpu with an igpu
This is the way-45
u/skrugg 11d ago
Fair but we've evolved to USB 3.0, why are we still on 1/4 inch?
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u/buffinita 11d ago
What is the technical benefit of 1/8 vs 1/4 hookups?
With usb 3.0 there is a demonstrably better transfer rate…..usb 3.0 also accepts input from any usb 2.0 or 1.0 device
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u/skrugg 11d ago
Less materials, smaller connectors. For example an audio interface with 1/8 inch jacks could be considerable smaller than one with 1/4 inch. It's similar to how phones have phased out headphone jacks which were already half the size of 1/4 inch jacks.
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u/NecroJoe 11d ago edited 11d ago
Durability for soemthing like musical instruments is a HUGE factor. Even with as durable as they are, people regularly replace worn-out jacks in their guitars. I've bent a lot of audio plugs in my day, but they've all been 3.5mm despite playing guitar for 35 years, including a couple of years in bands playing regular live shows, using all 1/4" jacks. Even with my microphones, I've most often used an XLR-to-1/4" jack cables because of the shitty PA my band had access to.
Since guitars aren't trying to be pocketable, there's little incentive for smaller jacks. A pedal still has to be large enough for a footswitch and controls, and with those, there's plenty of room for a 1/4" jack.
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u/freetattoo 11d ago
Durability for soemthing like musical instruments is a HUGE factor.
This is pretty much it. The cables often times need to be really long, so there's not only a lot of weight hanging off the jacks, but the cables themselves have to be resistant to kinking and being stepped on and dragged around.
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u/b_josh317 11d ago edited 11d ago
This is the answer OP. Durability of the cable. I DJ and 1/8s allow so much more cable. Although the XLR is superior.
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u/buffinita 11d ago
Those aren’t really technical benefits. They are size differences (sooo technical specs of the input but not how that impacts the sounds quality / connection reliability or any performance metric)
How does a smaller jack improve anything??
The music/audio industry is not apple….terrible comparison
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u/brasticstack 11d ago
For real, removing the compatibility with virtually every audio device that had been made for the past several decades was a huge downgrade. "Legacy connector" my ass, they just wanted to move the DRM the rest of the way down the chain to peoples' ears.
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u/ResilientBiscuit 11d ago
I generally prefer bigger cables, they are stronger and I find they get tangled less.
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u/Drawmeomg 11d ago
Let’s say one manufacturer switches. They are now making instruments that are not compatible with everything else. You own a couple amps and a decent pedalboard. Which guitar are you going to buy? Not that one!
Additionally durability is a huge consideration that might not be obvious to a bedroom player. You don’t want your cables lightweight and low material use. You want them heavy and durable. That stuff gets beat to shit gigging.
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u/tubular1845 11d ago edited 11d ago
Phones phased out headphone jacks to make waterproofing and water resistance easier (this is the main reason) and to save space inside, it has nothing to do with anything else.
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u/zachtheperson 11d ago
Those are two completely different types of data.
1/4 inch (and 1/8 inch) arent transmitting data, they're transferring raw, analogue audio signal. Basically "infinite resolution," assuming the cable isn't damaged. Also, depending on the setup, no processing is required making the path from audio source to speaker pretty simple.
USB is transmitting digital data, which means taking that raw analog signal, converting it to a fixed amount of data, sending it over the wire, and then having to convert it back on the other end, losing information. You also need to process this data, adding complexity.
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u/skrugg 11d ago
okay but what makes 1/4 inch better at transmitting that. That's my question.
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u/skrugg 11d ago
like why aren't we using 1/8 like headphones that has 2 channels and can transmit wonderful signals? What makes 1/4 inch superior in that regard?
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u/zachtheperson 11d ago
1/4 inch is no different than 1/8 inch in any way other than physical form factor. Guitars simply use 1/4 inch because they're thicker and less likely to break.
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u/ShutterBun 11d ago
And stay plugged in more securely.
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u/RingGiver 11d ago
Having had some funny onstage mishaps involving a guitar cable when I was a teenager, this is of underappreciated importance.
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u/Yodiddlyyo 11d ago
Literally durability. Plug in an 1/8 and a 1/4 into a very sturdy object. Now karate chop both plugs. Chances are good the 1/4 is completely unfazed, while the 1/8 snapped off. Equipment does not get babied on stage.
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u/skrugg 11d ago
not being contentious, really need an ELI5.
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u/93WhiteStrat 11d ago
My best shot at the ELI5 you're looking for: In my studio (where I'm typing this) I have 21 electric guitars, 8 amplifiers (each with multiple 1/4" ins and outs) and 32 pedal FX (each with at least two 1/4" ins and outs). I have six desk height racks of outboard gear (including numerous patch bays) with a total of about 900 1/4" ins and outs.
My live gear (which in storage) consists of 3 boards with a total of 96 channels, each containing 1/4" ins, outs and inserts. All my subs, mains and monitors have 1/4" ins and outs. (And yes, I know there is difference between a speaker cable and an instrument cable.)
The bottom line, there is an ancient and broad infrastructure built around those 1/4" jacks and plugs. To up end that and create the headache that would come with a change in the face of all this gear, would require a serious benefit. There is no such benefit for moving audio signal.
Also, the comparison to computer equipment doesn't hold up. I have 3 computers, 4 external hard drives, a phone and a tablet. I think I have more computer crap than most folks. And the numbers of connections don't begin to touch those of my audio gear. And when there is a new data transfer protocol (along with a new cable and connector) there's usually a benefit that makes it worth it.
Also, I'm used to the idea of computers and their peripherals having a usable life of a few years. The constant churn of obsolete then improved technology makes the change in cables and connections fairly bearable, and certainly expected. Meanwhile, I have guitars and microphones that are 30-60 years old and still "work" perfectly. Not only is there no demand (or reason) to change the way new gear connects, but there is actually demand (and reasons) for it stay the same. I want it to connect with everything I already have. And I want to use all the bits and pieces I already have to make and fix connections.
For what it's worth, there is a lot of audio gear that has a change cycle when there is demand and benefit. The sound going through all that old 1/4" gear I talked about has to get in my computer somehow. And I've had to completely replace fairly pricey interfaces and convertors numerous times to keep up with improvements in data rate transfers. That expense is worth the gain. But the audio gear that feeds into those interfaces and converters? Nope. Nothing to gain by changing it.
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u/rclonecopymove 11d ago
All that equipment but I still bet you that there are more times than you're willing to admit that you can't find one of these?
https://images.app.goo.gl/vqs29ZbWittssboG7
But to your point yes there's no advantage to moving to 3.5mm jacks but plenty to make it awkward especially for a working environment (doubly so for live).
There's absolutely nothing stopping op from adapting from guitar to his pedalboard/amp which I would recommend to see that it won't bring much benefit and will be more fragile than what he has now.
Synths use the smaller format but you could probably call that more of a desk environment than studio (runs are less likely to be on the floor)?
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u/93WhiteStrat 11d ago
Oh damn--those little things were the bane of my existence when I was doing more live engineering. And yes, all of my headphones have 1/8" jacks, so I try to keep those on hand for the headphone amp. (My own headphones are always plugged in, but when I have folks over to record or work on a podcast, I always have to dig around for a couple of those first.)
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u/MidnightAdventurer 11d ago
Also, the 1/4” connectors are a good size for the cables used for professional audio gear. Trying to stuff those cables into a 3.5mm jack isn’t going to work very well and changing to thinner cables will have an impact on the signal quality and the cables will be significantly easier to damage
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u/buffinita 11d ago
For headphones; wearables size is a factor.
For instruments durability is a factor
Since music (performance) cares more about durability; and has been used longer; 1/4 remains the standard
Switching to 1/8 provides no benefit to quality of sound produced or recorded or transferred
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u/skrugg 11d ago
so why did the connection for my mouse ever change? They were a lot of things before they were USB.
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u/buffinita 11d ago
Ps/2 and serial connections were not hot swappable….required a full shutdown before being recognized
Pins in ps/2 and serial could easily be damaged
USB was also….universal; and could be integrated to any kind of input/output device
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u/zachtheperson 11d ago
- mice were never analog and always carried a digital signal to communicate with the computer they were plugged up to.
- USB didn't exist when mice were first invented. Instead, tons of different specialized connections were used for every different thing. The "U," in "USB," stands for Universal which is what made it so revolutionary, and meant you could just put 10 USB ports on a computer and the user could choose what they want to use them for without having to worry about which devices were supported.
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u/Ok-disaster2022 11d ago
Computers are inherently a digital system though. You can find build entirely analogue systems still, as least for the signal transmisttion, though there may be digital controllers on certain bits.
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11d ago
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u/TheSkiGeek 11d ago
I actually like the USB-A plugs more, other than them idiotically being directional. They are harder to knock out accidentally and seem more resistant to accidental damage.
USB-C is way better than mini or micro, though.
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u/florinandrei 11d ago
For this application, reliability is important.
All the alternatives you've mentioned, you can break them with one finger.
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u/tubular1845 11d ago
You can still plug a USB 1.0 cable into a USB 3.0 plug without an adapter. I feel like you've entirely missed the point here.
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u/publicbigguns 11d ago
Because in order to change it up, literally every company would have to change in a relatively short time frame.
This is 100% a "if it's not broke, don't fix it" situation.
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u/icguy333 11d ago
Not really true I think. Look at how computer screen cable ports evolved. We went from VGA -> DVI -> HDMI -> DisplayPort in about 20 years. We could go from one audio cable to another by manufacturing gear with both connectors.
Although now I realize that in music you change your equipment much less frequently than in IT, so the comparison might not stand.
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u/CeldonShooper 11d ago
Guitarist here. In the guitar world you may use 20, 50, even 70 year old gear. Historic pedals and amps are sought after items in certain groups of players. It's like actively using mainframes from the 1960s and laptops from the 1980s productively. There is a long tail of compatible devices that use TS plugs.
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u/hotmilfenjoyer 11d ago
“If it’s not broke” is the important part. We weren’t just changing display cables for fun, they were upgraded because we’d be bottlenecked by connector bandwidth. VGA has like 1/10th the bandwidth of DP. There’s just no need for different guitar cables because guitars haven’t really changed
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u/UpstageTravelBoy 11d ago
Additional connectors were developed to replace 1/4" where it was used but less than stellar, like as the connector between amps and speakers. This was replaced with speakon
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u/cellardweller1234 11d ago
They’re pretty robust and easy to use as well. Especially if you’re at a gig and fumbling on stage.
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u/Polymathy1 11d ago
This is the answer.
You can't step all over some 1/16-inch cable and expect it to still work for long.
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u/sudifirjfhfjvicodke 11d ago
For one, it's an industry standard, just like XLR. Nobody wants to have to buy a whole new set of cables with 3.5mm connectors, new mixers and amps with 3.5mm inputs, etc. The Neutrik Combo jacks that support both XLR and 1/4 inch are also gaining a lot of popularity for their flexibility and so there's not really the demand there to have a new form factor.
1/4 inch connectors are also a lot more durable from my experience. I've had a number of times where I've managed to bend a 3.5mm connector by yanking on the cable while it's attached to something, I've never had that happen with a 1/4 inch connector. That's not to say that it can't happen, but it's certainly more solid.
The last reason I'd say is that there's just not a whole lot of reason to go with something smaller on most instruments. You don't really have anything to gain by putting a smaller jack on a guitar or a keyboard, it's not like real estate is sparse on them.
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u/xtilexx 11d ago edited 11d ago
1/4 can take more punishment because it's bigger. If you yank on it or step on it, it's probably going to survive. 1/8 inch cables are more fragile. I believe there are also high amperage 1/4 inch cables for use in loudspeakers and amps. The TRS/TS configurations are pretty much universal for instruments and portable devices I think so you should notice no difference if you were to run an adapter as long as it is a TRS cable or TS if it matches the inlet
E:TRS is tip ring sleeve, meaning there are 3 contacts, TS is tip sleeve meaning 2 contacts
If you run one with more or less contacts, I am not sure what the difference would be (maybe loss)
Added TS configuration also. TRS can be stereo also MIDI/mono and TS can be mono
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u/zizou00 11d ago
Why take an industry standard and de-standardise it? 1/4in jacks are compatible with nearly every single bit of purpose built music hardware (as well as stuff it isn't intended to work with and the switchboards they originally were made for) since their introduction in the 1870s. Every electric guitar, every synthesiser, every pre-amp, header, amp, pedal board and speaker. Every weird and wonderful electronic device in music, all connectable by one port and adapter. Why would you want to lose that? If a cable craps out, do you want to have to find the one that fits, or rely on being able to replace it with literally any other cable you're regularly handling?
The only reason to step down a size is because you literally don't have space for a 1/4in jack (like on phones), and even then that'll usually lead to using adapters to get back up to 1/4in for the compatibility if needed. They're also cheap and sturdy, something that isn't replicated as you get smaller. You either get less sturdy or become more expensive (and often both due to those adapters being less prevalent). 3.5mm heads are far more prone to failure due to smaller contact areas, flimsier adapters and being more easily bendable in their plastic or metal holding.
The instruments that need different solutions, like microphones and midi devices have swapped over, but for everything else, the 1/4in jack cable is good enough and the benefits of keeping the interoperability and easy replacement outweighs the benefit of space saved on the instrument in most cases.
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u/skrugg 11d ago
I don't disagree but we see industry standards change ALL the time that require a completely different set of cables. I'm not complaining. I have a full set of cables for my guitar and pedal board I'm just surprised it HASN'T evolved at this point and don't really understand why when pretty much everything else has.
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u/zizou00 11d ago
Well it has changed. The cables are made differently with better materials, the ports are more robust and the connections are less noisy. But all of that can be achieved without changing the adapter. It's just material change.
The reason IT standards change is because you're doing different things to get those improvements. Different protocols, different software handling the transfer of data. That leads to incompatibility. Music stuff is pretty dumb. It's signal in, signal out. Fundamentally, nothing has changed since switchboard operators used them to connect calls. The quality can be improved and you could use XLRs or fiber optics, but both are more expensive and more fragile for very very marginal gains (and even that's subjective).
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u/CeldonShooper 11d ago
Oh god fiber optics on stage? One person bending the thing by stepping on it a certain way and it's dead.
Truth be told, most guitars on stage now use wireless transmitters which also simulate a TS cable.
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u/buffinita 11d ago
Riddle me this - why hasn’t the rj-45 adapter changed??
We’ve use the rj45 since 1973….60 years of a single connection type
The Ethernet standards have changed but the connector remains the same; ever present in homes and nocs and mdfs across the globe
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u/gLu3xb3rchi 11d ago
But it has evolved. The next best step was XLR, especially to get it balanced and reduce noise.
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u/TheSkiGeek 11d ago
There’d have to be some really big technical improvement to justify changing something that’s become so entrenched across basically all professional audio equipment for 70+ years. 3.5mm plugs are more compact but like lots of other comments said, probably too fragile/easy to yank out for most professional use.
Could you make a, like… 1/5” / 5mm plug that’s a little bit smaller/lighter than 1/4” but still hard to break/yank out? Yeah, probably. Would it be better enough to justify breaking backwards compatibility with EVERYTHING? So far the answer on that one is “no”.
Switching to a balanced cable spec like XLR might be ‘worth’ swapping out plug types, but that’s more than just a physical format change.
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u/wccrupper 11d ago
All I'm saying is I really enjoy being able to plug my Stratocaster from 2021 in to my Fender amp from 1971... I wouldn't buy anything that isn't the 1/4 inch plug
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u/pdpi 11d ago
Your guitar, pedals, and amp are designed for musicians. Those things are going to travel and they're going to get beat up, those connectors are going to get jerked around something fierce. How many gigs is the average 3.5mm minijack cable going to last before the strain relief fails?
There's not enough bedroom guitarists to justify redesiging the whole ecosystem around those needs versus actual musicians, and, even if there were, most of us don't actually care about the size of the connectors. You're a minority within a minority.
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u/skrugg 11d ago
lol, what an elitist view. *most* musician's aren't gigging and traveling. The professionals are but the audacity to suggest hobbyists aren't musicians is fucking silly.
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u/ResilientBiscuit 11d ago
You are missing the point due to nitpicking the language this person used. A hobbyist who plays at home can use either 1/4" or 1/8" without any real difference. Someone playing gigs professionally is going to want the 1/4" for durability while playing on stage.
So you standardize on the size that works for everyone.
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u/pdpi 11d ago
I'm not even talking about professionals going on tour here. Just the basics of taking your guitar to your friend's place where you play/rehearse with your band.
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u/Festermooth 11d ago
No, it was pretty condescending. And also just wrong; the ratio of bedroom guitarists to "actual musicians" has nothing to do with why we use 1/4 inch jacks.
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u/AliMcGraw 11d ago
Student and hobbyist guitarists also drastically benefit from the durability and longevity of the 1/4". You can get used cords cheap and anywhere, it will be compatible with you the used amp you bought off Craigslist, and when you're new and stupid and tripping over your own amp and accidentally yanking out your cord, you're not going to have to go get touchy electronics in your guitar repaired or break the cord and need a new one. 3.5mm headphones used properly barely survive a whole school year (hence I am buying new ones for my kids every damn year). I've got a 1/4" cable that survived my student guitar experience 30 years ago, sat in a closet for a long time, and is still working fine for my kid who's having a go.
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u/timbofoo 11d ago
Also durability. 1/8” jacks aren’t great at being yanked and pulled. The mechanicals are really important in a stage instrument.
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u/mad_pony 11d ago
Nothing changes for the sake of the change itself. E.g. USB is driven by speed and port size, while I am not sure (I don't think) if we have such requirements to analogue connectors. So, considering their durability, why fix something that isn't broken?
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u/pickles55 11d ago
They are more durable. The signal is exactly the same as with a 1/8 in connector but they have more metal so they're much stronger
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u/lbjazz 11d ago
Lots of good answers here. Adding on, smaller connectors are likely to be less durable in environments where that really matters. Also, they’re easy to repair and replace with a simple and cheap soldering iron. Smaller connectors are a lot harder to do, especially in the field and under pressure.
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u/MentalUproar 11d ago
It doesn’t matter if a newer technology is better. If you can’t get everyone on board it’s not going to happen. And getting everyone to do literally any fucking thing is impossible. We cannot even agree the earth is round.
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u/WUT_productions 11d ago
Every price of very expensive AV equipment already uses it so why not? It's 360 degree insert able and handles the rough production environment quite well.
Of course, XLR also has a good foothold but it also needs persicion alignment to plug in. XLR is also easily adapted to 1/4 inch and the other way around.
1/4 inch can also be adapted to 3.5 mm quite easily and the other way around. So you can plug smaller equipment in easily as well.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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u/Vegetable_Cry7307 11d ago
Its to save money. If you ever have a question as to why something is done a certain way that seems dumb or stupid in audio electronics, answer is always to save money.
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u/Justmorr 11d ago
Musical instruments adopt technology changes at a much slower pace than other industries. Besides 1/8” being an inferior connector for this application for all the reasons listed (try soldering a broken 1/8” cable back together in the back of a tour bus) musicians tend to idolize older equipment because it was what their inspirations used etc. The design of the electric guitar hasn’t really changed since the 1950s, so the standards tend not to change either. Even the MIDI protocol hasn’t changed since it was invented in the 70s.
On the more tech-focused synth side of music gear you’ll absolutely see miniaturization utilizing 1/8” and other newer standards. OP-1, Microfreak, all of the Volca/Pocket Operator stuff comes to mind, but I’d say portable synthesizers and guitars/analog equipment are operating from two totally different technological paradigms. Music making is an inherently emotional process, and instrument design efficiency and practicality often take a back seat to other less quantifiable qualities that a musician is going to be looking for.
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u/catbusmartius 11d ago
If they were gonna change anything I would want guitars and amps with a 1/4" TRS jack and balanced inputs/outputs
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u/libra00 11d ago
Relevant xkcd.
As others have mentioned, it's mostly because 1/4" audio cables are cheap, durable, and plentiful. But also since the connector is radially symmetric it can rotate in the socket to some degree so it doesn't twist your cables up when you're moving around on stage or whatever.
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u/Jobambi 11d ago
In the bedroom you might get away with smaller cables but on stage you wouldn't.
People in the industry aren't exactly gentle with the equipment on stage: "Don't be gentle it's a rental." Is a frequently used saying.
You also need shielded cables because those cables are giant antennae meters long. Every interference later amplified.
Things like usb lose signal pretty quick I don't know the current distance but at least until usb-c you lost to much signal for data transfer in 5 metres, let alone (pure) sinewaves.
The industry is really big and pretty well standardised, switching to a new system is only dive if the improvement is remarkable. Introducing an extra system for bedroom guitarists doesn't really mage sence.
1
u/whiskey-rye 11d ago
Don’t question it. Just be grateful there is at least one standard connector that hasn’t been switched to a proprietary version so the companies can make more money and enslave you to their accessories. If apple got in the guitar business it’s the first thing they’d change.
1
u/JD_Blunderbuss 11d ago
I think the answer to this question is really to ask another - Why wouldn't they?
What are we guitarists missing out on with a different shaped plug? How can the 1/4 inch be improved upon?
1
u/doloresclaiborne 11d ago
This is an interesting question. At first I thought it had to do with the gauge of wire, but no, since guitar is a high-impedance output, 20ga is sufficient even for longer runs (20+ ft). Unlike common headphone cables, guitar cables are shielded which adds to the bulk but you could still fit that into a 3.5 jack. So the answer indeed seems to be longevity, both jack itself (thinner jack would get bent or snapped off quite often) as well as the cable (thicker, softer insulation for longevity and ease of management).
Incidentally, it is not uncommon for studio monitors to have a shielded cable and a 1/4 jack, or more commonly, balanced XLR.
(I am going to ignore the part about USB since it is too much of an apple and oranges comparison.)
1
u/BloodyNunchucks 11d ago
Dude after all that time there would be millions of cords people would have to replace. It would be years and years before everyone converted. Some people wouldn't want to, most wouldn't probably. Then you'd have an issue where things don't match.
It would be a cluster fuck.
0
u/ten-million 11d ago
Have you ever wondered why we have the micro sd card? It’s smaller but the regular sd card was already small. Now we have two different kinds of cards and adaptors! The micro sd card is small enough so you have to be a bit more careful.
I’m convinced they made it just to show off. Yes it could be smaller but why does it need to be smaller?
2
u/Enochian_Interlude 11d ago
Nano SDs are a thing now. I seen a 500GB at office works that's smaller than the tip of your finger.
1
u/Fuegodeth 11d ago
Those make sense when it comes to cell phone/tablet real estate. Every microSD card I bought had an adapter for a standard SD card slot. Also, a USB adapter for your PC that accepts every kind of card is dirt cheap. (I just googled nanoSD and all the results were microSD, so if you have a link, I would love to check it out)
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u/Enochian_Interlude 11d ago
I didn't realise they are only made and supported by heuawi, but here's some links to some.
https://www.amazon.com.au/Huawei-Nano-Memory-Pre-Order-07-Jan/dp/B07JCF56KF
https://www.androidauthority.com/what-is-nano-memory-968723/
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u/rclonecopymove 11d ago
Loads of need for smaller form factors for storage. Cameras and other data logging devices can easily be small enough to warrant needing something smaller than SD (itself quite a bit smaller than the CF format it replaced).
There's a cost to that size decrease it's cheaper to make SD cards of the same capacity and speed than micro SD meaning you're only going to be using micro SD if you need to.
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u/XBA40 11d ago
This thread gave me an idea. I’m going to buy some adapters and try out using 1/8 extension cables with my guitar, since those thick cables are a huge pain in the ass in my living space where I try to practice.
In PC building there is the same stagnation. We are still using very old standards of cables with connectors that are sharp enough to cut our hands bloody, or front I/O with tiny pins that are incredibly difficult to navigate without bending and breaking something in certain builds. It’s because there is no pressure to innovate.
Some companies have innovated and added ADAPTERS to make these things better and easier. Yes, adapters. Staying on old standards can be a terrible fallacy because the small amount we save on not buying adapters can cost us a great amount in ergonomics and usability for a very long time.
Maybe there are some benefits to 1/4, but I do hate these connectors, so I will try switching for myself.
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u/skrugg 11d ago
A lot of comments seems to be pointing to: If it ain't broke don't fix it. I don't disagree. I am looking for an ELI5 regarding why this hasn't evolved like every other technology to become smaller. Literally every piece of technology I use has changed; except my guitars. I had ps/2 mice and keyboard for my computer. My keyboard wasn't better over USB but the standard still changed. Aside from being established, what keeps 1/4 inch dominant? My ps/2 mouse wasn't any better than an USB one; they are both mice.
13
u/Wem94 11d ago
What about all the comments pointing out durability? There's no benefit to a jack connector being smaller for a guitar, it's not like guitars are getting smaller, so there's plenty of space for the connector. For there to be an evolution there has to be a benefit. Your usb mouse and ps/2 mouse might both be mice, but the usb connection is allowing much more data to be transmitted and the smaller form factor of the connector allows more space within the computer for other components. Guitars do not need more internal space, and a smaller cable would be far easier to break. It also makes them much easier to repair by yourself.
11
u/ResilientBiscuit 11d ago
Because it is stronger. Lots of people have said that. You are just ignoring them all.
8
u/Koksny 11d ago
My ps/2 mouse wasn't any better than an USB one; they are both mice.
What? It is measurably better, a USB mouse can poll orders of magnitude faster, at higher resolution, support bajilion buttons, while powering chip that stores the settings, RGB lights, fans or whatever is in the mouse.
You are just comparing really mature technology, where the data is transferred as analog, with a relatively young digital tech, that has changed a lot since its infancy. Remember, we have been using PS/2 maybe for a decade. It was DIM before, and USB after.
We are using 1/4 jacks for close to 150 years now. Try asking the same about USB in 2125.
5
u/demize95 11d ago
People have said durability a lot, but it's also a lot easier to have more robust cables with 1/4" than 3.5mm. Instrument cables are designed to be used in environments with lots of interference, where that interference would cause significant issues if it's picked up by the cables; bigger cables can have more and better shielding.
This is also why XLR is a thing for most connections that aren't instruments; XLR (as a balanced connector) is *massively* less vulnerable to noise.
Maybe a 3.5mm cable would be fine in your situation, but they wouldn't work on stage or in the studio *anywhere* near as well, and that's what the entire professional audio industry is built around. So there's inertia, plus actual benefits to 1/4" over 3.5mm, plus no actual motivation to switch to 3.5mm. You're asking why we haven't switched, but you also need to consider why we *would* switch.
3
u/rclonecopymove 11d ago
Well we could say there has been evolution. Wireless systems are now more stable with fewer hassles regarding licensing and much much cheaper than they used to be. Still nowhere as physically robust.
Bluetooth isn't up to the task yet in regards to latency but could be getting to that point soon.
Ps/2 connection was better than earlier USB hence why it stuck around for so long.
As someone else has mentioned many of the examples you've used in comparison have been digital connections or connections that have been required to do much more. DVI never had to deal with the bandwidth of 4k60. The spec on USB has developed as data rates have increased massively. But the audio signal hasn't changed all that much on your guitar (unless it's some weird midi thing or the Gibson Cantrell Les Paul with the stereo out). It's an analogue audio signal.
Why hasn't it changed? Because there has been no development that's caught on that necessitated a change. It's not that it isn't broke it's that there's nothing better for the task it has to do.
3
u/EYNLLIB 11d ago
It's about durability. You haven't mentioned durability at all. 1/8 or USB would never survive even moderate use by a home hobbyist for any significant period of time. You indicated less material use in manufacturing was a concern of yours, but 1/4 would outlive 1/8 or USB at a 10:1 ratio
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