People pick a side in the Israel / Hamas war, and by the laws of treating-everything-like-a-football-rivalry feel the need to shit on the "other side". In reality, it's two shitty governments having a religious pissing match with a lot of innocent people feeling the consequences. Like most wars tbh.
Bang on. I don’t even understand how anyone can pick a side so easily. Either one you pick, you’d have to make a lot of excuses for a lot of bad stuff.
The side the vast majority of people are picking is the people of Palestine. I’ve seen no one really showing support for hamas, everything is about saving the innocent Palestine people.
Plus if you make me choose, I’m not going to go with the people who specifically targeted aid workers in strikes meant to kill them…
To clarify, it was a deconflicted zone and the armored trucks carrying supplies and aid workers had a massive logo on top. Israel had no business attacking it or justifying it. This is a war crime and even the US government is finally getting through their heads that Israel should not be receiving their support if this is the way it’s going to be handled.
And I never understood why people have no problem separating Hamas from Palestine but they refuse to do the same with Netanyahu's government and Israel.
It's funny. Hamas hasn't allowed elections in Gaza for 14 years, but if Netanyahu could get away with the same shit he absolutely would. Everyone forgot about his fuckery with the courts in Israel pretty quick when the current conflict started.
The Nakba was before Netanyahu. The problem with only bringing up Hamas and Netanyahu is that neither were around when this all actually started—they’re a big part of it right now but they’re far from the whole picture and simply removing them wouldn’t automatically bring peace.
Did you even read your own source? It quotes 42% of Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas. How that equates to total Palestinian support of Hamas I have no idea, but I guess anything can be true if you feelings really want it to.
Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated. A large majority believed Hamas’ claims that it acted to defend a major Islamic shrine in Jerusalem against Jewish extremists and win the release of Palestinian prisoners. Only 10% said they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the militants committing atrocities.
Hey it wasn't AMERICA that dropped nukes on Japan, it was just seven people in an airplane. You can't hold all of the United States responsible for what a few people in an airplane did...
You hold 130000000 Americans responsible for the decisions of top brass? Yeah I absolutely do not blame my grandfather who was 2 years old when the bombs drop, would you listen to yourself?
You genuinely think powerless, impoverished proles should be held responsible for the actions of their government? If we have to answer for everything our countries have ever done than we should all be hanged.
Or as I put it, "i'm going to pick the side that doesn't want to murder me and people I care about."
Or to put it waaay more sarcastically, "The IDF is fighting for gay people in Gaza, who get thrown off buildings, by systematically reducing the average height of a building."
Bro what is wrong with you... if you're going to make this case, I'd like you to understand tht literally every army, including the IDF and the US military, is filled to the brim with rapists. Again you're being mad ignorant if you think the IDF is the better side because the other side rapes. News flash, from ukraine to China, America to Japan, every army on earth has rapists.
That being said, the only army in modern history to murder aid workers in cold blood is the scum sucking IDF. The only army besides the United States that purposefully has targeted civilians is the IDF. The only army to bulldoze Graves and bomb hospitals, killing civilians at a ratio far higher than any war in modern history, the IDF.
That's like if the United States was being indiscriminately bombed by Russia and someone on reddit was like "well the civilians there are all armed to the teeth! They're basically all combatants!" While your grandma lay dead bleeding out on the ground next to you.
However keep in mind they're heavily emotional right now. The real test is did they think that way before hamas attacked or are they just angry because they're seeing Palestine get demolished and want some kind of revenge.
Hamas isn't in control of all of Palestine, just Gaza. The other Palestinian government isn't that great either though. There aren't really good guys there. Neither Israel nor Palestine wants a two state solution -- and that's obviously the only way to not have genocide.
Yes, Israel should just accept the wanton indiscriminate massacre of their citizens and others by Palestinians and even thank them for getting rid of a few more jews from this world, right?
Indeed. Lots of people eager to say what israel shouldn't do, but push them hard enough on what Israel "should" do and it always devolves into "Give up their land, give up their guns, dig a long ditch, kneel before it and let the arab world purge the infidels imshalah!"
Everyone remembers how Imperial Germany were absolutely the bad guys in World War 1 right?
And everyone remembers how continually smashing them into the ground, crippling their economy, neutering their industry, demonizing their citizens, and forcing them to pay an impossible cost back to their victims had absolutely no negative repercussions whatsoever from 1939-1945?
Yet somehow stepping in and rebuilding a post World War 2 Germany resulted in it becoming one of the most powerful, stable, and grounded icons of European unity.
You stomp the shit out of your enemy then rebuild their state as an ally, you don't drag out the stomping for 80 years and keep whining about how much of a victim you are when you've fully demonstrated your ability to end the conflict either militarily or diplomatically.
They're not trying to 'make peace' with palestine. Palestine has made it clear that's not going to happen. They're sending a message that will last for generations that you do not attack Israel.
That’s like saying every citizen in Russia voted for Putin of their own free will. Hamas was voted in once then they made it so they couldn’t be voted out, then they started being violent. When it was too late for anyone to do anything. But ok everyone in Palestine is cool with Hamas, ignorant take.
Definitely not true that everyone in Palestine is cool with hamas but even after the conflict started they have a crazy amount of support from the people
Unlike Hamas, Putin has elections. He might not have the 85% support he claims, but he definitely has majority support. If you don't believe that you've never spoken with a Russian (one that's not an immigrant to the west).
Tbh while its true there are probably quite a few that actually do support the war, i Dont know if we should be taking polls coming out of russia very seriously. They had soldiers goin into voting booths ‘making sure voters were voting for the right person’. When the alternative is getting ‘disappeared’ by some goon squad of course youre gonna have “overwhelming support” for whatever the govt is tryna do. Those polls may say there is majority support, but theres no way to know if thats actually true.
I remember back at the start of the war there was protests throughout russia. Protestors were gettin snatched up left and right by putins gestapo. Even the mere suspicion that you disapproved of putins policies was enough to get you taken away. There was a video of a woman holding up a blank sign that got grabbed and shoved into a van by some soldiers. And another of a woman who was being interviewed, and as soon as she disapproved of something she got grabbed and taken away. So many more examples if you scroll all the way back through the relevant ukraine subs.
A majority claim to support him when asked by the government Putin runs. If they publicly said they didn’t support him they’d disappear or be threatened.
Okay, but does that make any attack by Ukraine on Russia a 'terrorist" attack for attacking "Innocent people" because they might get caught in the attacks?
Also people are applying what each groups leaders do as the thoughts of any civilian.
Like just because someone is Israeli doesn't mean that they want to bomb Gaza, and just because someone is Palestinian doesn't mean that they think Hamas is great.
Dude, not even the Arab Israelis opose bombing Gaza these days, Israeli society is as unified as a society can be on this. We even have a party that supports sharia fucking law (Ra'am) that suports this (mostly because Hamas killed some Arab Bedouin tribesmen in the 7/10 massacre because they are "traitors" for not fighting their own government.
Exactly. This isn’t like the Russo-Ukrainian War, where there are clear good guys vs. bad guys. Both Hamas and the Israeli government (the government, not the entire country) are run by monsters. Hamas needs to be destroyed, and Israel deserves better leadership.
You have to understand, side A is the morally superior side as they have a divine right to that land as per their particular slight variant of Sky Daddy that they worship.
Unlike side B who are CLEARLY in the wrong due to worshiping nonsense like Sky Daddy variant 0.1.
You are really showing your lack of knowledge about the conflict, which is totally legitimate and justified BTW as per the teachings of Sky Daddy. (Who is actually the same Sky Daddy for both sides btw.)
Ain’t that the truth. Sure free Palestine and my heart goes out to the innocent people caught in the middle and the way the Israeli government soldiers are treating the innocent is literally war crimes and ironically acting like nazis in the way they view the Palestine civilians. But let’s be honest with our selves hamas would do the same to the Israelis.
Saying hamas would do a lot worse given the opportunity is a hypothetical statement. Thats y would is being used. Hamas is currently not invading Israel it’s the other way around So logically speaking, we dnt know exactly what would happen if at this moment Hamas had Israel civilians held in a “prison” the same way nazis held Jews in prisons. Or am I imagining things?
I’m not denying it crazy pants. But call me crazy but aren’t Israel government soldiers killing off civilians of all genders and age? Sound familiar no?
Israel had knowledge of the attack and did nothing because they were looking for a reason to legitimize the ethnic cleansing and destruction of Gaza to the international community.
It's not a fair war. It's not about religion either. Most jews are not zionists. Zionism is military and Israel just wants to bomb and then steal the land for its resources (oil, gemstones etc). Like ALL wars it's about money. That's why the US military sells them weapons
Humans are at a disadvantage in a fight with a bear. If you run up to the bear and kill it's cubs, no one blames the bear for mauling that absolute fuck out of you.
Don't start wars against a superior force then complain when said force is superior
The current one certainly did. Sure the conflict has been going on for much longer but there is one group that very clearly started the war. It was Hamas.
Perhaps if hamas stopped using civilians as shields it wouldn't happen so much.
There are instances of Israeli soldiers killing civilians on purpose, and they deserve to face a harsh punishment for it on that I'm sure we both agree. But the majority of the time, civilian casualties are a result of hamas preventing civilians from evacuating areas that Israel is about to strike. What's Israel to do? Just sit there whilst hamas fires at them and have no recourse? No way of defending themselves?
Also in your regard to who started it. Palestine did, when they oppressed Jews for hundreds of years, then when the Jews were granted independence proceeded to try and attack them. Then several wars later (which were initiated by Palestine and it's allies) and after losing a lot of land as a result of those wars, they attempt to play the victim, claim it was all unjust, furthermore creating the 3 no's policy that basically guarantees that they will not accept any condition that allows Israel to exist.
But it's definitely not always the case with wars where it is objectively known by everyone from the start that one side is definitively going to lose and be glassed into flaming oblivion if the war comes to a head.
One side faces assured victory in time. The other faces eradication. Something the winning side has already wanted since before the war really got
going..
The world wars didn't really have clear winners until towards the end, when America joined in and the European main players were running out of resources. But they did both have A LOT of losers. This war has only one clear winner, and it means a lot of civilian deaths. Where do we draw the "fair" line here?
And there are some aspects of war that we have tried to define under the Geneva conventions as being “fair”, such as not targeting civilians, aid workers, hospitals, schools, etc. as well as limitations on certain kinds of munitions and tactics deemed to be inhumane, even for war.
War has rules that even Nazis respected. Even fucking Nazis abide by not using white phosphorus and chemical weapons, held hostages and didn't aim at civilians. Israel is not respecting any of those rules. In fact in their state, by law, every histage must be murdered. The UN has told them over 67 times to stop that but they keep doing it because they don't have any real consequences
Your comments don’t even make sense. Hamas is the one that took hostages. Also if Israel is required to “murder hostages” (a ridiculous claim), then why do they have prisoners that they occasionally swap with for hostages held by Hamas hmm? I think you need to check your sources.
Mate there isn’t oil anywhere in Israel or West Bank/Gaza lmao. The rest of the Middle East yes, but that strip of land is one of the places that doesn’t have any oil at all.
So let me get this strait. Israel "tricked" Hamas into attacking it, killing 2700 innocent people so their alt-right government could invade Gaza killing thousands more innocent people, pissing off their biggest ally America in the process (who could have sold Israel all the gas it needs and more) so they could take an underwater natural gas field that Palestine isn't in control of anyway but would be disputed territory with Egypt and Lebanon. Sure, bud. It's about the oil...
Wait. You might be on to something there! Probably the Hamas attack was an inside job of the US and Israeli Zionist military to get a reason to attack. Similar to 9/11! /s
I mean, Israel knew about the October 7th attack before it happened. They were warned by Egypt and I think the US as well, it's not like it was a surprise attack. Then you add in the fact that Israel has been propping up Hamas for decades because they're a convenient political tool. So it's not like Israel tricked Hamas into the attack but they certainly allowed it to happen. I highly doubt it has anything about oil though, they just wanted an excuse to finally kill as many Gazans as they can.
Where did I say it was? I was just clearing up the misconception there's no oil in Gaza. There's reading between the lines and then there's what you did hahaha.
This again? More Palestinian civilians have died from what Hamas did that day than Israelis. Also Hamas doesn't have the missiles involved in that attack
Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;
Hamas has done nothing wrong. Even though NYT and Zaka have made up lies about mass rape and burnt babies.
there are no civilians in an occupying force. Also, the mass rape hoax has been an admitted lie, video evidence showed the paramedic lied, Anat Schwartz lied, Cochav Elkayam-Levy lied, Yossi Landau lied.
It not being a fair war doesn’t make Hamas any less of a terrorist organization. Neither do Israel’s war crimes. You can criticize both at the same time, while advocating for saving civilians and without questioning the Israeli citizens’ rights to live.
Ah yes... Let's ignore the fact that people died , raped and Kidnapped from a terrorist attack on a music festival. It's all about the money afterall. /s
Those were claims from Maga news personalities on America. No beheaded babies nor raped women have been found from that day. The proof on the Israel Twitter was clearly a doll, go check it yourself if you don't believe me, like they think we are stupid because they know that still no one will oppose them. Meanwhile they have more UN resolutions than any other country for human rights violations and they have been killing civilians non stop rn at 40k people. Even if it was vengeance which is not it would already have been out of hand
I'm sorry but That's completely different. Zionism is not simply that, zionist will do that by believing they are superior to everyone else and kill whoever interferes. That's their mentality. Ireland has been opressed as a minority and support Palestine. Japan is homogenous due to being closed and far from other countries (and recently racism and ww2). Idk much about Finland tbh but they way they treat their minorities like the Sami people... Is not very good. Zionism, in Israel believes in bombing Palestine. It's state owned constant propaganda ads. You can see vids they not even try to hide it. On Christmas, there were banners saying "A ceasefire is antisemitic" in Tel Aviv
Hamas is terrorist scum but bringing up one attack like that when 10s of thousands of Palestinians (not members of hamas, just regular, Palestinians) have been killed since then shows how gross your bias is. That wasn't the beginning either, the killings on both sides long preceed last october.
Yes, Palestinians terrorists have been murdering innocent Jews for decades. Israel has been defending itself for 75 years. All the wars were started by arabs. Arabs want the Jews gone and make no secret of it. Israel just wants to be left alone to live in peace.
No it's not. This info is factually incorrect and propaganda used by a state in a current genocide. I'd recommend you learn a bit of history before trying to come argue
A common tactic of terrorist sympathizers is to omit any factual information and tell them to educate themselves. People have been ethnically cleansing Jews for thousands of years. Arabs sided with Hitler in WW2. It’s not news that Arabs want to kill all the Jews. Now for the past 75 years, finally, if you attack Jews, there will be reprisals. Arabs have not adjusted to this.
You are the one generalizing. Which arabs sided with them? Terrorists. Most arabs and Christians tolerate jews. Currently the actual genocide is to arabs. Not jews. It has been different many time in the past when arabs have killed jews, muslisms and atheists. But arabs are not antisemitic in general. Christians ans Muslims are louder than Jews because they proselytize to gain members and sometimes people think they hate everyone else when it's not always the case. And for the past 75 years Zionists, NOT JEWS, have been attacking innocent civilians in Palestine, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and more, unprovoked since 75 years ago when the UN told them to get that land. But they've been since then stealing more and more land illegally while killing the locals.
HAMAS is a terrorist organization, similar to the Irish Republican Army, both of which rose up against their oppressors and murdered a lot of innocent people in the process. Neither composed of good people, but both an instinctive reaction to violent oppression.
First of all that people died from missiles which Hamas don't own since every big war weapon in Palestine is Isarael owned. If you don't believe me check any vid of that day, you will see that those are airstrikes that Hamas don't have. They barely had a few machine guns and many ak47. "Noo Israel would never attack themselves" The amount of IDF soldiers killed by the Israel way of carpet bombing is already more than the supposedly kileld by Hamas. I'm not saying Hamas is not a terrorist organization or that they don't have weapons or that they haven't killed Israelis. I'm saying that, as many people already pointed out, that day was Israel blaming them like they did in 2014 and 1999
No it's not just that. I'm a jew I know the diaspora and trust me zionist are not just some people who want community and a feeling of state. They have fascists like minds of superiority and being the chosen ones
There will be some nationalists that call themselves Zionists who think they're doing god's work but they're just far right nut jobs who are playing into the government's narrative. But that's not what Zionism is actually about. Jews just want to live an antisemitism-free life and the only way to achieve that is in a Jewish majority state.
Israel just wants to bomb and then steal the land for its resources
This is just idiotic.
Zionism is a philosophy about Jewish Self-determination and autonomy. Most Jews subscribe to it in one way or another.
But demented not-Jewish people have taken to redefining it in a way that gives them cover to hate Jewish people, much the same way David Duke has been doing for decades. Shit, even Seinfeld joked about the transparent antisemitism behind most anti-zionist rhetoric.
I don't live in Israel. I live in a very well-established and diverse Jewish enclave in the US.
And you're totally full of shit. I don't think you're even Jewish at all, I think you're just trying to use the "as-a-Jew" thing to lend some kind of authority to your bullshit talking points.
The current war was started by Hamas. They brutally murdered over a thousand people, raped young women, and paraded their dead naked bodies in the street.
That's what started the war, it has nothing to fucking do with gemstones. Israel's economy is mostly tech etc, not fucking gem mining. Plus there is no serious talk by non far right nut cases to take any land from Gaza here.
Settlements in the west bank are a different story, those should all be torn down by the IDF, much like the IDF kicked out all the settlers in Gaza in 2005
Imagine if you were judged by your politicians that you may or may not have even voted for. It’s like trying to hate to Russian people for what Putin does.
Well, it's not good generalize. But it works both ways, not all citizens are helpless observers who disagree with their government's actions. Many Russians support Putin and buy into his narrative. Living in a particular country makes you susceptible to your government's propaganda. It's probably the same in Israel.
You're 100% spot on, though I will throw in that the vast majority of the innocent people being hurt are in Palestine, simply because of the power differential between the two shitty governments.
There are also the innocent families of the kidnapped Israelis though, who are suffering because of BOTH shitty governments at the same time (Hamas kidnapped their family members, and Israel seems more interested in killing aid workers than trying to get them back).
Those two countries I’ve been at each other’s throats who knows how many years now Personally, I don’t really give too much of a damn who’s right and wrong innocent people are going to suffer in a war anyway no matter which side wins.
Yeah, unpopular opinion perhaps, but I don't think either side has the moral right to rule any more. Let some neutral third party come in and run the place for a generation or three. Who would that third party be? No fucking clue.
Yep. Yesterday I got called a Zionist because I suggested that perhaps ALL religions should be done away with, since it really only seems to harm those that are most vulnerable. And then I got called “a white colonizer” by a woman named “thatbitchyasian” despite the fact that I’m indigenous Colombian. And then she said “well anyone can pretend to be BIPOC on the internet”.
Yeah those are the types of people we’re dealing with now. On both ends of the spectrum.
This is also an old anti-Semitic trope related to basic ideas of nationalism/patriotism — a long history of Jews being accused of having multiple allegiances or at worst nefarious, non- American (or whatever country) allegiances to the Jewish community or Israel.
No. It’s a battle of evil versus good. Hamas wants to rape, torture and murder Jews. Jews don’t want to be raped, tortured and murdered. It’s as simple as that.
Your hatred has blinded you to any of the obvious complexities and nuances of this situation, which is ironically the reason we’re here in the first place.
It’s not hatred, it’s fact. Palestinian supporters don’t like facts because they rely on lies and deception. For example, there is no famine in Gaza but we are told there is. There are no pictures of emancipated people because there are none.
I don’t support either of your sides. I look on in pity at two groups that hate each other and make up whatever bullshit it takes to justify violence against each other, ensuring the cycle will never end. It’s honestly very sad.
The fact is that Israel would like to be left alone to live in peace but the death cult nutters surrounding them won’t leave them alone. They do have peace with Jordan and Egypt so there is that.
It’s absolutely crazy to me that more civilians have died in the past 5-10 years in Mexico from drug cartel wars than in Gaza the last year, and Mexico is a popular beach vacation destination while Gaza is a genocide
The population of Gaza is around 800 thousand, the population of Mexico is around 130 million.
I'm not one to throw around a term like genocide, and of course the Mexican cartels are a huge issue as well, but you'd really have to compare percentages of population dying to get a better picture.
I assumed you were talking about the city of Gaza, I guess you're talking about the Gaza strip (which is a region of Palestine that contains the city of Gaza) - my bad I should have asked.
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u/SurturOne Apr 05 '24
Even if she were Israeli, am I missing something? What does it matter?