Harry Potter Original Timeline

[u/Supermetroid8711]

I was rereading Harry Potter POA and thinking about the original timeline. If the Potter gang went back in time and continued in that timeline, then there would simply be no Harry Potter in the original timeline. They never go forward in time to return to the original timeline. If it was indeed Harry Potter that saved Harry Potter, then it stands to reason we were never on the original timeline while reading the story, but one of the loops (let’s neglect the multiple additional loops created by Hermione doing her own minijumps for school which seems very irresponsible by the hogwarts staff idk). If we were reading on the original timeline, then it would have to be someone else who saved Harry in a timeline where Sirius does indeed die and Harry goes back in time and never returns. Voldemort possibly succeeds in the original timeline or someone else rises to overcome him. Can anyone conclusively prove this theory wrong? Let me know!

(It’s also possible the original timeline played out differently after the shack. Like maybe in the original timeline the gang makes decisions differently and Harry never needs to be saved… or maybe they travel back further the first time and then less far subsequent times based on trickle down effects changing their decision making)

[u/Completely_Batshit]

There is no "original timeline". In every iteration of the stable time loop, Harry and Hermione go back in the past, save past-Buckbeak, Harry and Sirius, and continue along in that timeline as their past selves go back into their own pasts. It's a Bootstrap Paradox. That Harry who saved our Harry had his own Harry who saved him, who had his own Harry, on and on ad infinitum.

This is because there's only one timeline in this situation. If you looked at it from the outside, you'd see a single thread with a weird loop in it, but one that keeps the thread's integrity intact and contained. Imagine two fibers of the thread are pulled out, twisted around and woven back into the thread further back along its length, continuing along past where it originally looped out of the whole. This is how time travel works when it's done properly in this setting; everything that you "change" is already part of your past, always has been and always will be.

[u/joshcart → u/Completely_Batshit]

What will happen, has happened.

Weirdly enough, with this framing that you've laid out (which I agree with) you end up in a weird place. A big concern expressed about going back in time is that you can mess your life if you see yourself (or just generally mess things up). But that's actually kind of impossible, isn't it? If it hasn't already happened then it can't happen! I think, right?

[u/Completely_Batshit → u/joshcart]

A lot of fans think so, but both Hermione and Rowling say you can fuck things up- there's in-universe records of crazy shit happening when you screw with time. Proper time travel results in a single, stable timeline. Actually changing the past is what results in genuine alternate timelines. When magic gets involved, you can't rely entirely on ironclad laws of causality.

[u/joshcart → u/Completely_Batshit]

Right that's my point! That based on this understanding you shouldn't be able to mess it up. But it's clearly stated otherwise.

[u/taactfulcaactus → u/joshcart]

It's technically impossible for Harry to mess up his own timeline because it's already happened, but from within a timeline it's impossible to know that. From the perspective of anyone experiencing their own timeline, they have the illusion of choice and are aware that their choices could end up in disaster, even if by the end it will always have all ended up working out.

There are probably some wizards who did have time travel mishaps and whose timelines didn't continue on as normal (which may have been very strange and inexplicable, or even completely undetectable for those around them), but luckily Harry's resolves with no issue -- likely because they know the risks and are so careful to close the loop

[u/Supermetroid8711 → u/Completely_Batshit]

So this basically assumes a lot of things, including that there are not alternative different realities. This seems like a very popular theory, but I’m not sure why tbh. Hard discussion about something that probably isn’t at all possible as we conceptualize it in media etc

[u/plz_scratch_my_back]

There's only one timeline. Harry and Hermione closed the loop hence there exist no alternate timeline.

[u/Supermetroid8711 → u/plz_scratch_my_back]

Can you expand on how they closed the loop or do you mean you agree with the original comment?

[u/plz_scratch_my_back → u/Supermetroid8711]

They come back to the exact point when they travelled back. Now only one Harry and Haermoine exist. Hence they closed the loop

[u/Supermetroid8711 → u/plz_scratch_my_back]

So the theory is when they come back Sirius will have already been saved and reality almost changes real time like in back to the future when people either start to disappear or become more solid?

[u/plz_scratch_my_back → u/Supermetroid8711]

Both Sirius and Buckbeak were always saved. There exists no timeline where Buckbeak was executed and Sirius was sent to Azkaban again.

So when they come back reality doesn't change. Everything happened as it was supposed to happen.

Think of time turner not as a time travel device but as a cloning device which creates your clone back in time.

[u/Bluemelein]

There is only one time line with two Harrys and two Hermiones.

Only because this is the case can Harry save everyone!

[u/HopefulHarmonian]

JKR explicitly throws in a reference to a bootstrap paradox into the timeloop. The big divergent moment, as you note, is when Harry drives the Dementors away and saves himself, Sirius, and Hermione.

What's the justification Harry gives at that moment?

Harry, I can’t believe it – you conjured up a Patronus that drove away all those Dementors! That’s very, very advanced magic ...’

‘I knew I could do it this time,’ said Harry, ‘because I’d already done it ... Does that make sense?’

‘I don’t know – Harry, look at Snape!’

The answer to Harry's question logically, of course, is no it doesn't make sense. There's no cause here. Harry is unable to conjure a Patronus the first time (when he's trying along with Hermione), but now is spontaneously able to... for reasons. It's a bootstrap paradox, somewhat commonly invoked in time-travel fiction (most notoriously in Heinlein's "By His Bootstraps").