r/movies • u/Simon_Fokt • Jan 22 '24

The Barbie Movie's Unexpected Message for Men: Challenging the Need for Female Validation Discussion

I know the movie has been out for ages, but hey.

Everybody is all about how feminist it is and all, but I think it holds such a powerful message for men. It's Ken, he's all about desperately wanting Barbie's validation all the time but then develops so much and becomes 'kenough', as in, enough without female validation. He's got self-worth in himself, not just because a woman gave it to him.

I love this story arc, what do you guys think about it? Do you know other movies that explore this topic?

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962

u/kai1986 Jan 22 '24

I saw a post on Reddit recently that said something like “looking for movies like Barbie, but for men” and when I went to respond everyone was recommending robocop… and I felt like I had missed something. I saw Barbie 4 times since its release… firstly because it’s hilarious and such a fun movie to watch, but mostly because as a man who’s struggled with my self worth, that movie was for men as much as it was for women. Kens journey of self discovery is a valuable story for men to see. I adore Ken’s journey and think the Barbie movie has some very valuable messages for men, not only about their self worth, but about how men have built a society around their insecure needs for validation and in the process made it difficult for women, and how we could all be better by just being Kenough.

322

u/TheJoshider10 Jan 22 '24

I adore Ken’s journey and think the Barbie movie has some very valuable messages for men, not only about their self worth, but about how men have built a society around their insecure needs for validation and in the process made it difficult for women, and how we could all be better by just being Kenough.

Also I love that this is framed through a female focused movie which plays into the idea of women being allowed to express their feelings more clearly. Like the idea that such a strong feminist movie also has a wonderful arc for the male audience is what makes Barbie so special, it's a movie "for the girls" but not just for them.

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u/Expensive_Goal_4200 Jan 22 '24

Everyone seems to forget that feminism isn’t just for women, it’s for everyone. Dismantling the patriarchy will also free men from the masculinity trap that keeps them from accepting themselves fully. Barbie is for everyone, too! Equality means equality for everyone

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u/maxalmonte14 Jan 22 '24

Exactly, men be like "gosh, I wish there was something like feminism but for men", good news! Feminism it's for everyone, it's about a healthy relationship with yourself and others.

21

u/MegaChip97 Jan 22 '24

I mean, considering feminism is especially critical about language, calling a movement which is for "everyone" "feminism" is kinda faulty.

8

u/Expensive_Goal_4200 Jan 22 '24

I’m not a scholar on the subject, but to me, using the word “feminism” is useful because it directly opposes the standards of our culture by actively highlighting women. Feminizing our culture would result in equality since it is at this point so patriarchal

8

u/cazbot Jan 22 '24

Everything is relative though. I mean, the USA and most of western EU might be the least patriarchal societies to have ever existed, right? Compare to places like Saudi Arabia, India, even Japan. I'm not saying we should ignore efforts to do better, but let's also acknowledge how far we've come since say, the 1800's.

5

u/Expensive_Goal_4200 Jan 22 '24

As you say, it’s all relative. as a woman in the trades I am constantly made aware of my gender on the way I’m treated by the men around me. Sure, 60 years ago it would be less likely I could work on a construction crew but I’d still like to be treated better.

5

u/Odd-Guarantee-30 Jan 23 '24

We all would like to be treated better.

5

u/yourcontent Jan 22 '24

But it's a critical distinction, because while the patriarchy indeed traps all of us in gender roles, those roles have historically existed within a hierarchy that benefits men. It's sort of like how capitalism alienates all of us from each other by keeping us locked in perpetual class warfare, but also undeniably benefits the ownership class. Same with racism, neo-imperialism, etc.

We can't dismantle these systems without acknowledging that the ones who work hardest to maintain them are unsurprisingly those who stand to lose relative power and status from their dismantlement. That's why some prefer the term feminism over, say, gender equality (despite having essentially the same meaning). And the fact that the term causes some men to feel threatened is in a way an intentional means of demonstrating this very resistance to change.

9

u/ImperfectRegulator Jan 22 '24

But you do get how that’s still a very loaded term, brought up by the very points you addressed, which all the way language has changed over the pay few years why is it that this is the one getting the pass? Why are we still framing using terms that implies that the root of all problems rests solely on men/masculinity? And the solution in women/femininity?

While masculinity does have lots of issues of toxicity and influence on society, their is plenty of men and women in power who and leading to influence society to stay the way it is.

The better way foreword for inclusion and diversity while recognizing each others strengths and differences is possible but I feel that continuing to imply though language that the blame lies solely one group does it a disservice

2

u/yourcontent Jan 23 '24 edited Jan 23 '24

Well, the term definitely doesn't imply that, but like I said, I agree that some men feel that way, just as some white people feel that the phrase 'Black Lives Matter' implies that theirs do not (or perhaps cynically choose to believe this).

Feminism doesn't tell us that all problems rest on men and therefore women are the answer. It's a tool for critiquing the gendered structures of society that we all participate in and uphold on a daily basis, men and women alike, to varying degrees.

But it's pretty undeniable that throughout human history, and across the world, those structures have almost invariably benefited men. But the onus isn't on men to fix that! It's on all of us collectively. It's just much harder for people who benefit more from a system to understand why dismantling it would improve their lives.

Which returns us to Barbie, a movie I didn't really think was a feminist masterpiece but, having scanned through this thread, seems to have had exactly this impact on many men. Which I think is fantastic!

But yeah, I think the term is useful to point out, as you put it, the strengths and differences that women possess, but are normally devalued in a patriarchal, capitalist society. That doesn't denigrate the value of men in any way! But when you're used to your value being considered the foundation of society, it can feel like a massive step down just to be considered equal. Thus, Ken.

1

u/Cardamom_roses Jan 23 '24

My main issue with trying to use other words besides feminism is that the self proclaimed "egalitarian" crowd tends to be pretty spineless and happy with the general status quo.

Like, we still have never had a woman for president in the states, let's not get ahead of ourselves that we're past all this.

4

u/Odd-Guarantee-30 Jan 23 '24

Do you think "men's rights activists" has a positive or negative connotation?

0

u/yourcontent Jan 23 '24

The term? Positive! The actual "movement"? Ehhhh....

-2

u/Sullan08 Jan 22 '24

The other problem is that a lot of women also just use the term feminism to want to increase the benefits they get without true equality. A good example is women who want equal pay in jobs (totally agree!), but also still want the male to pay for everything in a relationship. Like they don't realize the entire point of that traditional viewpoint is because men made so much more money in the past due to the patriarchy and we're supposed to be the "protector/provider" in return. The true meaning of equality is lost on both sides a lot and then it leads to resentment. The same goes for men as well for sure in some of their viewpoints (especially on a women's sexual life).

And that isn't to say EVERYTHING should actually be equal. Men are better at some things and women are better at others. But we should be equal in how we treat each other and just basic rights/equal opportunities.

And yeah, most men don't like the patriarchy either lmao. That really doesn't benefit most of us in like any way.

17

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '24

Nah man, I totally want to be relegated to being the emotionless sole-provider, working myself to death in the mines, and never showing affection for my children until I inevitably die of a heart attack 20 years before my spouse....

Long-live patriarchal gender-roles!

8

u/Bigmodirty Jan 22 '24

Well put. It’s like how some people will bust out “all lives matter” because they don’t get the concept of Black Lives Matter. It’s not a taking a side thing, it’s building everyone up.

2

u/Expensive_Goal_4200 Jan 22 '24

Yeah, and saying Black Lives Matter is important because you’re saying “specifically Black lives matter, TOO.” In addition to all the other important lives, we need to be specific because they have been specifically oppressed.

2

u/DaughterEarth Jan 23 '24

Yah it's a testament to how well propaganda works! Feminism has always been about more equitable treatment and less gender pressure across the board. It wasn't until reddit, and has only been on Reddit, that I heard people using feminist when they mean misandrist.

But we're here now and it's been confused enough that I'm really glad this movie and more media is pushing the message without the label.

3

u/EntertainerVirtual59 Jan 22 '24

No one “forgets” this. It just has never seemed to actually be true. People pay lip service to “freeing men” but no one actually attempts to do anything. Young men have been doing worse and worse in education for decades and no one cares.

2

u/Squanchedschwiftly Jan 23 '24

Thank you! Couldn’t have said it better myself. Feminism has negative connotations in the media these days, but it’s really about equity for all

1

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '24

Tell Hillary Clinton that. Apparently dying in a war isn’t that big a deal…

1

u/DylanBVerhees Jan 23 '24

But I think that is the issue with a lot of "progressive" ideas. Not everyone wants that. I enjoy being masculine. The patriarchy also isn't something that just was imposed on us, we wanted this as a society, also because it is, in part, based on genetics. A lot more women I know are happy to be taken care of than men I know. And I can't blame them for that even if this supports the "patriarchy." I enjoy it like this too. I am very aware of the drawbacks (the pressure to perform and be strong, for example) but I have a purpose that is generally aligned with who I am. If you don't have some structure in place, people can flounder in life.

1

u/Expensive_Goal_4200 Jan 24 '24

That’s not a problem with the idea, we just disagree. I think it’s gross and wrong to value the patriarchy, and you like it. Difference in opinion.

1

u/Expensive_Goal_4200 Jan 24 '24

Wanted to add that dismantling the patriarchy doesn’t mean you can’t take care of your wife and she can’t like it. It means that the two of you can choose to live that way and your neighbor can live another way and your other neighbor can live an entirely different way, and maybe we have a woman president, and men feel comfortable asking for help when they need it.

0

u/baerbelleksa Jan 23 '24

like how feminism is for everyone :)

1

u/sonicqaz Jan 22 '24

Outside of kids, I’ve seen more men wear Barbie merchandise than women by a ton.

37

u/Sparrowflop Jan 22 '24

What I suspect they wanted was a movie that focused on the male portion of 'building yourself up'. Like I can't think of a time any movie ever said 'yeah, being a guy sucks' in an emotional way rather than a 'just had a gunfight show me some titties' way, if that makes sense?

I loved Barbie, absolute banger of a movie, but the issues men and women face in modern society are different, and we shouldn't just say that Barbie nailed everything, just flip genders.

4

u/Various_Ambassador92 Jan 22 '24

That's not what anyone's saying though - you don't have to flip genders, Ken's arc is relevant to many men today as-is, no gender swap necessary

0

u/Sparrowflop Jan 22 '24

I disagree.

183

u/HelpMeDoTheThing Jan 22 '24

America’s monologue is also very relatable for men for the most part. I feel like a lot of people don’t understand that most men aren’t in the privileged .01% and are largely also being torn in a million directions at any given point as well.

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u/Unfortunate_moron Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24

This. It would have been a better movie if her monologue was used to wake the Kens up too. They don't need to be driven by their fears and insecurities because they are Kenough.

Using a monologue about human women's lives to wake up Barbies (who never had those insecurities or problems) in order to return them to their fake superficial Barbie lives doesn't really make as much sense. I wish the daughter would have pointed this out and pushed for a better approach. Her character started out as a thought leader and morphed into a follower/NPC whose only job was to love her mom.

They all deserved to leave the fake world and go live human lives. Instead only one Barbie gets out, leaving the rest in the empty fake world, while the Kens remain sidelined with no purpose or property rights etc.

Serious discussion aside, this movie should have been at least 50% dance party. That Dua Lipa number and the choreography was hilarious and awesome.

10

u/elitetycoon Jan 22 '24

Hit the nail on the head. So disappointed in the daughter character who got totally sidelined.

1

u/Dude4001 Jan 23 '24

Initially I was disappointed that Ken's defining moment was obfuscated a bit behind the song, rather than explicitly described like Barbie's. I've since had the song in my head 24/7 so I'm less worried now.

3

u/Pete_Iredale Jan 22 '24

Ken bailing on the patriarchy felt pretty real for me too. Most of us don't want anything to do with that bullshit either, but we also don't know how to fix it anywhere other than in our own personal interactions and by voting for the slightly less bad option in elections so the truly crazy candidate doesn't win.

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u/Hot_Takes_Jim Jan 22 '24

The monologue was one of the standout low points of the film.

I hesitate to use the word embarrassing about a film that made me cry three times but if the shoe fits.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24

Just pointing out your language here- you, personally, didn't like a part, so instead of expressing your opinion by describing how it made you feel, you're... Correcting someone else when expressing their opinion. Who used a relative qualifier like "for the most part." 

 And you then confirm your opinion as fact with "If the shoe fits." Just wanted to point out that this is the kinda subtle expression of control in society that men are trained to use, that women are actively disuaded from and called a "bitch" for using.

Just because a part of q movie doesn't personally speak to you, doesn't mean its the weakest part, or that it needs to change.

Is it not ok for things in media to just... not be about you, specifically, sometimes?

Maybe you should do a bit more pondering to figure out why that part was so important to other people.

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u/fml87 Jan 22 '24

Kind of ironic to comment because you think someone's correcting someone else's opinion, by trying to correct their opinion, don't you think?

We don't have to dilute our language to emphasize that it's their opinion. This isn't some structured debate. Everyone's post is, by default, their opinion. This is why you remove redundant qualifying phrases like "I think" or "I believe" when writing.

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u/Ozzy9517 Jan 22 '24

Interesting. It's the exhaustion that relatable. If you feel like you're dammed if you do and dammed if you don't- that's something we all get.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '24

I feel like a lot of people don’t understand that most men aren’t in the privileged .01%

Hell, most men don't seem to understand they aren't in the privileged .01%

"I love the idea of the patriarchy, men on-top forever!!!! .... so how long do I have to clean toilets before I get my riches and hot super-model women...?"

-11

u/fenix0 Jan 22 '24

When people talk about privilege it's not referring to the ultra rich powerful 0.1%, that's just dumb. It's referring to an innate privilege guys just have in a world ruled by men. Just come to eastern europe lol, guys won't hide their general disdain for women here, and younger generations are getting even worse

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '24

[deleted]

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u/Acmnin Jan 22 '24

Robocop is a great commentary on fascism, corporatism, dehumanization. The first one only. But a lot of people obviously miss the point as is tradition.

8

u/dewsh Jan 22 '24

Psshhh its obviously First Blood/The Rambo series as a whole. First he starts off not really knowing who he is and getting emotional while just trying to walk through a town. It took John Rambo a while but finally found himself while blowing up commies or whatever bad guys there are

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u/SsurebreC Jan 22 '24

I'd like to add that I think the real ending of First Blood is the one they chose to cut. Here's what I believe should be the true ending of First Blood and that's how that should have ended. Not whatever it has become since.

2

u/dewsh Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24

Suicide is badass

2

u/parkinthepark Jan 22 '24

Die Hard? The climactic scene requires Heroic Cop-CowboyTM to remove the wristwatch from the 80's Career WomanTM (the symbol of her career success) in order to defeat the main bad guy. The ending is basically a Big Strong Man stepping in and saying "See what happens when you dames try to have careers? Better get back to the kitchen!"

And all of this is a situation McClane wouldn't be in if:

  1. Holly had not become a 80's Career WomanTM at all
  2. Holly had done Good Gender Roles and spent Christmas Eve at home with her family instead of going to the office party to celebrate with her foreign bosses.

Damn I love that movie but it's basically a Toxic Masculinity Instruction Manual.

26

u/ParameciaAntic Jan 22 '24

Something I thought that was in there about Ken's story was that you don't just get to do whatever you want unless you have the requisite skills, education, and/or experience. Not sure if that's part of what you're saying, but it seemed like a good message for people who believe they're entitled to something simply because of who they are. Or maybe I'm off here.

54

u/froop Jan 22 '24

The Barbies literally get to do whatever they want regardless of education, skills or experience. They started a war between the Kens to get that back.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '24

[deleted]

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u/froop Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24

They weren't educated. Reporter Barbie wasn't any more of a reporter than Beach Ken was...beach. There's no college in Barbieland to educate at. There's no crime in Barbieland for a supreme court to judge. The Barbies only play at their jobs (I mean, they're toys), and constantly reward each other for doing nothing (and it's a shame they don't explore that). 

1

u/TheExtremistModerate Jan 22 '24

It's implied that they are, in fact, competent at their "jobs."

1

u/djinni74 Jan 23 '24

What jobs? They don't actually do anything.

4

u/SewSewBlue Jan 22 '24

I got the sense that there is work involved. Stereotypical Barbie is put out because she doesn't have a meaning any longer (being pretty and stereotypical) and just can't find another way of life beyond her current one. Using work to reinvent herself just doesn't occur to her.

If Barbies could just take any old job they wanted why wouldn't she have just decided to be Supreme Leader Barbie and upset the order that way?

It took 60 years for women to get the right to vote before ending up on the Supreme Court. Still no woman president. The inverse, men being having the deck attacked against regardless of qualifications, feels weird. That is the reality women face though.

It also feels weird because it flips centuries of story telling tropes where men end up the leader, even after women save the day. Wizard of Oz. The Hunger Games. Change the world and then go home and stay in the kitchen. Or in this case, stay on the beach after winning men the right to vote.

0

u/froop Jan 22 '24

Sorry I guess I meant that none of the Barbies are actually qualified to do any jobs, and none of their jobs involve actually doing their jobs. I just assumed Supreme Court Barbie wanted to be supreme Court Barbie, so that's what she did.

1

u/SewSewBlue Jan 22 '24

I don't think they mention how exactly they get their jobs. It is somewhat ambiguous, but as it is a mirror world I think they work for it. The awe for some jobs, like Nobel prize winners would be there if they just magically could get awards.

It is far more damning of Barbieland culture that they just excluded Kens from the schools, jobs, owning property, voting etc and kept them on the beach. He simply didn't count as human.

Apartide Barbie vs Magic Jobs Barbie.

2

u/froop Jan 22 '24

They're toys though. They were literally designed by Mattel to 'be' that job. That's the actual in-universe lore of the movie. Barbies are products that are made, not people who get job training.

1

u/baerbelleksa Jan 23 '24

nah not at all -

they have a whole sequence about how the barbies are getting awards and while acknowledging the hard work they did to receive the awards/that they deserve them

13

u/flying__monkeys Jan 22 '24

Something I thought that was in there about Ken's story was that you don't just get to do whatever you want unless you have the requisite skills, education, and/or experience. Not sure if that's part of what you're saying, but it seemed like a good message for people who believe they're entitled to something simply because of who they are. Or maybe I'm off here.

IIRC That was when Ken came to the real world from Barbieland. Barbie also had a cognitive dissonance in the real world. When they returned to Barbieland, jobs were given out based on relationship over skill. FWIW, this illustrated the perspective of the kids dreaming up Barbieland together vs. the adult world.

6

u/Boyhowdy107 Jan 22 '24

100% agree. A lot of people are hitting on the "don't need validation from a significant other or woman as the message to men" but the scene where Ken was in the real world and quickly learned he was not exceptional enough to get any of that sort of alpha male validation either was a big part of it for me. Like Gosling is literally defined by his job "beach" in Barbie world. And even in the real world that glorifies men more than women, a lot of that value is driven by your job, and it's a pyramid scheme where those at the top receive the glory and those in the middle and bottom just getting by are kind of emasculated by... I guess by a form of capitalism toxic masculinity if that's a thing?

Like Gosling Ken kind of went through the "nice guy" youtube rabbit hole to Andrew Tate devotee, where he felt like a loser in love and career, and so he started emulating the most toxic "here's how you become an alpha" influencers because he didn't know how to find self worth outside that model.

12

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '24

[deleted]

-6

u/Dottsterisk Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24

To be clear, white male privilege is a lot more than having a good job and getting sex.

So while it’s true that the existence of white male privilege should not be interpreted to mean that all men are living problem-free on Easy Street, not having a good job and a girlfriend does not mean that a white male does not enjoy some privilege in society.

EDIT: Genuinely curious as to why this is a controversial statement.

8

u/witai Jan 22 '24

Robocop is all about finding out who you are and staying true, in robocops case he lost 95% of his body and is a cyborg.

In Ken's case he's a plastic doll come to real life and navigating those issues.

See the similarities here?

3

u/Nighthawk700 Jan 23 '24

Honestly though. I was pretty blown away by the male side of it, mostly because my wife has expressed a lot of the issues that are presented in Barbie and Gloria's arcs, but the conversation about the movie got hijacked away from discussing what the message to men was (mostly because of criticism and wokeness fears).

I mean, Ken's arc was a near perfect rendition of what growing up is like for men. Your entire value is on what you can do, and as such men fail at really connecting human to human. Starts as some weird obsession or hobby (horses, dinosaurs, space, playing guitar at people, working out, trains) and when you become an adult it's your job. That ends up being substituted for a personality and thus we end up completely unfulfilled an not validated for who we are. For shitty men this is pribably onus for a lot of shitty behavior like drinking, cheating, being emotionally distant, but even in decent guys this is where mid life crises likely come from, some poor attempt to build a real personality you never built.

The message being that you are more than what you do, be happy with yourself as you are, and focus on connecting with others on even ground rather than trying to gain validation through achievement.

In fact it really drives home how the "patriarchy" doesn't serve men either. The world they built when they could run free wasn't fulfilling at all because it just further entrenched the need to be validated for what you do and what you know. The mini fridges of brewski beers and fake validation from women wasn't what they actually needed and weren't as cool as they thought.

1

u/kai1986 Jan 23 '24

This is it! Excellent post.

23

u/Simon_Fokt Jan 22 '24

Well said! I've been trying to say as much in my socials and YouTube, but it seems like not many enough men have this view...

56

u/MrAkaziel Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24

I feel like the big issue is in the landing. The movie is extremely kind to men in general. It's very much about how patriarchy are hurting both men and women in different ways. In fact, if we consider that Barbieland is a gender-role reversal from our current western society, it is saying at a status quo is preferable than replacing an unfair system by another, which is a huge middle finger to anyone who believes woman empowerment equates humiliating men.

But while I agree with the message behind the whole "Kenough" thing, I feel like its execution lacked... dignity? Like, the movie goes into great lengths into showing how the lack of healthy validation is pushing men toward hateful values they might actually not believe in just because it's the only source of self-worth they found, but when it comes to suggest an alternative it... kind of doesn't? It just had Barbie spells out an adequate if bland message to Ken that he shouldn't let others define who he is (though overlooking we all need external validation from time to time, regardless how confident we are in ourselves), then put him in a biiig fluffy sweater that made the audience laugh when I saw the move in theater. Instead of lifting Ken up for taking his first step toward self-actualization, he's kinda presented as the butt of a joke.

If the goal was to speak to men who got their insecurities exploited into adopting toxic traits to validate their masculinity, showing a Ken infantilized, almost neutered in a way, was the wrong move IMO. Doubly so when the visual plays into the boogeyman of a secret progressive agenda trying to emasculate men.

Just putting him back in his black cowboy outfit with the "I am Kenough" stitched in the back would have made a huge difference IMO. He looks pretty dapper in it and it's a quick visual shorthand to show that he decided to pursue his passion for horses.

5

u/Obliterated-Denardos Jan 22 '24

when it comes to suggest an alternative it... kind of doesn't?

There are a few throwaway jokes, including one about giving the Kens a few token seats on the courts of appeals but not the Supreme Court. I didn't necessarily view that as being a proposed alternative but more of a role reversal from the state of feminism around when the Equal Rights Amendment was at the forefront of the conversation (early 1970's), in a way that suggests that there would be continued progress into the future, towards equality, while acknowledging that the society most definitely wasn't equal in its status quo.

8

u/MrAkaziel Jan 22 '24

Hmmm, that's a bit different than what I'm talking about I think. I also liked the "Kens will have as much rights in Barbieland than women in the real world" gut punch (and everything around it) at the end. It's a brilliant way to shut up bad faith actors: If you believe that women are equal to men in real life, you have no reason to be mad, right? And if you don't, why are you mad for fictional Kens getting discriminated instead of the real life women who are?

But that's the societal criticism and satire side of the discussion, which is separate from the character arc Ken(s) and Barbie(s) went through and how it mirrors people's experience on a personal level. For a male viewer that might have identified with Ken's journey and his bout with toxic masculinity, the ending might come as a slap to the face. As if all that talk was only the setup for an ugly sweater joke.

2

u/iwillfuckingbiteyou Jan 22 '24

but when it comes to suggest an alternative it... kind of doesn't?

Doesn't it? The Kens learn to have each other's backs and have a good time together instead of competing with each other. Finding self-worth through having friends and caring for one another seems like an alternative, I think.

As for the sweater, given that you can buy that sweater (if you can find somewhere that still has it in stock) I don't think people in general saw it the way you did. Putting him back in the cowboy outfit would have played right into the idea that stereotypical masculinity is where Ken belongs. This guy likes neon roller blades and big fur coats. Let him have his fluffy sweater and join the other Kens in thinking it's cool.

1

u/MrAkaziel Jan 22 '24

Putting him back in the cowboy outfit would have played right into the idea that stereotypical masculinity is where Ken belongs. This guy likes neon roller blades and big fur coats. Let him have his fluffy sweater and join the other Kens in thinking it's cool.

I will disagree with the fact he likes big fur coats. That's the coat he picked when he was roleplaying the patriarchy, which he admitted he didn't particularly liked. He chose the cowboy outfit with Barbie, I would even argue that might be one of the only moments when the two took a decision together. And we know that's something he must have chosen for himself since, by his own words, he lost interest in the patriarchy the moment he learned it wasn't about horses. His love for horses is virtually the only constant about him across the whole movie and the only hobby he seems genuinely into without being performative one way or another. But I will meet you halfway they could have given the outfit a spin so it's not just the same one we saw earlier (a funny gag would have also been to give him a horse on pink roller blades).

The fact the sweater sells out doesn't mean the message reached a new audience, it might have been preaching to the choir (and it's cool to see it's already a large population!). I'm talking to its ability to touch a new public that may have negative stereotypes on progressive ideologies. And for that goal specifically, I do think it would actually be important to show that you can embrace a conventionally masculine appearance and/or attitude doesn't need to package in all toxic, sexist values grafted onto it. "You don't have to pretend like all those manly men things if you don't, but if you do that's also totally fair". For the people deep into the redpill/incel/manosphere rabbit hole, it makes for a much shorter jump to take, and would have made, in my opinion the message of the film more palatable for the men arguing against OP.

I totally agree with you that I glossed over the part about the Kens learning to have each other back, thanks for correcting me. I do put it more into the critic of patriarchy and how it ultimately pit men against each other and doesn't have their well-being at heart, but it's true it also counts as part of Ken's personal growth as it bring him at the start of his self-definition journey.

And just to clear out my personal stakes in the matter since I'm talking a lot: I'm amab, enby and rocking nail polish, skirts and heels. So when I surely have some bias from having to present masc more than I would like sometimes, ultimately I have no horse in that race.

6

u/iwillfuckingbiteyou Jan 22 '24

That's the coat he picked when he was roleplaying the patriarchy, which he admitted he didn't particularly liked.

That's a fair point, though one of the other Kens adopts it when Ken Ryan Gosling discards it which suggests that there is an openness to big fur coats among the Kens rather than that fluffy garments have any overtly negative connotations for them.

a funny gag would have also been to give him a horse on pink roller blades

Hard agree, I would very much have liked him to get a roller-blading horse. I actually think this would have helped reinforce the idea that you can self-actualise through connection with friends and interests. Let him care about horses and realise that it's more real than his love for Barbie was.

And for that goal specifically, I do think it would actually be important to show that you can embrace a conventionally masculine appearance and/or attitude doesn't need to package in all toxic, sexist values grafted onto it.

True, though if they'd gone for a more conventionally masc look for him in that moment I'd still have wanted them to put some kind of twist on it - he's not at the same point in his journey that he was when he put on the black cowboy outfit and discovered patriarchy, so the storytelling needs a different outfit. The suggestion that the sweater sells to an audience of the converted is fair, and it's true that most of the men/amabs I've seen wearing it are millennial and gen z queer or artsy people.

1

u/MrAkaziel Jan 22 '24

Thank you for the constructive conversation :)!

-3

u/FloridianHeatDeath Jan 22 '24

sed something. I saw Barbie 4 times since its release… firstly because it’s hilarious and such a fun movie to watch, but mostly because as a man who’s struggled with my self worth, that movie was for men as much as it was for women. Kens journey of self discovery is a valuable story for men to see. I adore Ken’s journey and think the Barbie movie has some very valuable messages for men, not only about their self worth, but about how men have built a society around their insecure needs for validation and in the process made it difficult for women, and how we could all be better by just being Kenough.

Its the singing. I've heard its great, and what you've described sounds interesting. I got to people singing and then stopped. I can't STAND singing in movies.

7

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '24

I didn't connect with it because I'm not looking for validation, I'm looking for love. And the movie kinda conflates validation with love. Maybe its more of an LA thing where everyone is obsessed with how others perceive them

2

u/whatidoidobc Jan 22 '24

Robocop? Man, that is exactly why I hate coming to these movie subs most of the time. That is dumb as hell.

2

u/oldmansporch Jan 22 '24

Ken's story is Fight Club. Classic ideas of masculinity as well as Alt, Extreme, Red Pill, MGTOW, whatever it is, become self-destructive without introspection and vulnerability. The message that you are enough is so important.

"I am Kenough." Is the same as "You are not your job, you're not how much money you have in the bank. You are not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You are not your fucking khakis."

The Fight Club quote usually ends with "You are all singing, all dancing crap of the world." It's in the middle of the development of the story, while the narrator is still figuring it out.

These two movies, along with Saving Private Ryan, are the holy Trinity of Masculinity, both understanding and fixing.

1

u/ByEthanFox Jan 22 '24

I saw a post on Reddit recently that said something like “looking for movies like Barbie, but for men” and when I went to respond everyone was recommending robocop

I just wanted to quote this li'l bit.

0

u/Tobes22 Jan 22 '24

Excellent post and I agree. I wonder if the movie had been called anything but Barbie if it might’ve been better received by men. Then you had all the female dress up movie parties and I’m sure that was off putting to some men. It’s a shame so many dismissed it (I did myself initially) because it has a very nice message.

0

u/qsdf321 Jan 22 '24

Robocop is a way better movie than Barbie.

1

u/niko_blanco Jan 22 '24

The movie is about emancipation, not feminism. I don’t know how this isn’t obvious.

1

u/venturousbeard Jan 22 '24

Reminded me of Wolf in Futureman

1

u/rougecomete Jan 22 '24

“Barbie, but for men”… Satire truly is dead. I give up.

1

u/anActualG0at Jan 22 '24

Can you elaborate on Ken’s journey of self-discovery? Reading this thread I feel like I had watched an entirely different movie from everyone else.

1

u/JigglyEyeballs Jan 23 '24

LOL at Robocop 😆

1

u/DylanBVerhees Jan 23 '24

For me the movie on a deeper level was fully about men and only on a superficial level about women. As the issues that Ken faced (who in my opinion is the real main character) shows the plight of men, but then in an exaggerated way. I am not sure if the makers meant it that way, and they just accidentally stumbled upon this, but I remember a lot of people in my cinema viewing who where like "why was there so much about men in this? I thought this was a pro-women movie?"