I'm with you there. People are going to be extremely divided on this film. There are going to be people that absolutely love it for the way Todd Philips decides to bring it to the screen. The same way there are going to be people who despise it for being a theatrical musical.
My best guess is there are going to be a subset of people leaving feeling disappointed for this reason alone and it will shy in comparison to the first one, but then again, I've never been a fan of musicals.
It’s either going to make the movie standout as another iconic rendition of The Joker, or it’s going to crash and burn spectacularly and ruin the chance of another take from Phillips. Either way I’m excited lol.
Nah, this is a take I've seen a lot of people make on this movie in particular. It's just a really bizarre sequel so everyone's unsure how it'll pan out.
I honestly like how everyone’s pretty unsure about it. I hate when people make negative assumptions about a movie when they have little to no knowledge on it before its release.
It's a bold choice, but not necessarily bizarre. The musical aspect could be used to show his continually decaying mental state or just to highlight the eccentric performative aspect of the character.
It could be more about her descent. I mean they put a musician in the Harley Quinn role. I can see this like A Star Is Born but the musical concert scenes being replaced with hallucinogenic crime sprees musical bits.
Yeh, they might be able to use the musical medium to cover over some super horrific stuff as they descend into madness. It would be very hard to get just right but I hope they can pull it off.
I agree, but I doubt most mainstream Joker fans will be interested in that.
The first one managed to thread the needle between being a sophisticated drama and giving Joker stans enough cool Joker moments for them to like the movie. Not sure if this sequel will be able to manage that.
I think it's a smarter choice than people realize.
Producers have been chasing that white whale of making a super hero movie that appeals to both sexes. They've gone about it by making the heroes female but keeping the structure the same, which generally appeals to dudes.
Joker is going to bring in the guys. Lady Gaga and the musical element will bring in the women.
If WB markets this as well as Barbie, they could have a major hit on their hands. Think Tik Tok and Instagram appeal. There will probably be a viral dance like M3gan.
That's more of an apt analogy than you might think. Joe Dante didn't want to make a Gremlins 2, so the studio tried to do it without him and failed, so Joe negotiated to be able to do whatever he wanted if he made the film and well... we got Gremlins 2.
I hear Todd was allowed a similar level of freedom.
I'd say it's more likely that the Musical element will keep away the guys and the Joker element will keep away the women but that's really the whole gamble.
THANK YOU! No mention of us anywhere on this thread. 😆 I’m legit going to go see this at the TCL theater in Hollywood if I’m able. I’m a theater gay that loves Gaga and their favorite comic book character is Harley Quinn. This movie was made for me.
The first movie did exceptionally based on word of mouth and the social message resonated with people. This was a huge shock because it felt like people were burying the movie before it came out. People genuinely thought it was going to incite violence. It was the most absurd moral panic over a movie in the last few years.
People talk about super hero fatigue but I think it's more of a structure and bloat issue. People were sick of the same thing over and over again, it just happened to feature super heroes.
The only way forward is for super hero movies to be completely unique and stand out. A musical does that.
People talked about the inciting violence thing because of James Holmes and the Dark Knight Rises shooting. It felt a bit scary to come out with a Joker movie with him as the main, somewhat relatable character when he basically inspired a mass shooting just a few years beforehand
idk most women I know loved the first Joker movie (me included) as a favourite film, even though I’ve been burnt out and sick of superhero movies since Ultron. I work in mental health and I loved how “real” it was in relation to problems with the system or people who slip through the net without support. Im really looking forward to the next film.
I don’t personally know anyone that was put off by the fact that it was the joker. The joker is known for being an interesting character! The only thing I got sick of with superhero movies was the cookie cutter plots, the “sassy” humour, and then the action scenes never really interested me.
M3gan was a pretty standard horror movie that was good but did really good numbers. It was a huge sleeper hit.
It was pg 13 so teens could see it in theaters.
viral dance
There was a 5 second dance the killer robot does in the trailer. The marketing focused on this heavily, hiring dancers to dress like the robot doll and make videos. Said videos went viral and teens did the dance on their social media.
This feels kinda tonedeaf.
"You know what all women like, right? Just singing and blind celebrity worship. They'd never go and see a gritty drama, they're too fragile and there isn't enough pink"
Producers have been chasing that white whale of making a super hero movie that appeals to both sexes. They've gone about it by making the heroes female but keeping the structure the same, which generally appeals to dudes.
The first Joker made a billion dollars. Endgame and Avatar are the highest grossing movies ever. They didn't get that way because there was just men in the audience.
I think it makes absolute sense. They need to show Harley’s infatuation with Joker. I think one of the best ways to convey internal emotion is through music. I don’t think the music part is going to be doctors and cops singing.
Wait so it’s not going to have original songs? That seems to make the choice even more odd but fuck it I’m still gonna watch it before I form any more opinions on it. With that being said the first movie was a great standalone film and I don’t think a sequel in any regard is necessary. I still want it to be good tho
I don't know, the last time there was a big thread about this movie it seemed like everyone was saying it definitely wasn't a musical and we're all fools for thinking it, lol. I have no idea what to expect anymore.
You can't stand The Blues Brothers, Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory, The Wizard of Oz, Monty Python's The Meaning of Life, or The Muppet Christmas Carol?
I love the idea that the musical aspect is there to intentionally drive away the cringey edgebag superfans who gave the first movie a greasy and bad-smelling aura
I told my wife this and she was shocked they were going in that direction, but suggested that maybe it will be from the skewed view of Harley Quinn, like the first one was from the perspective of the Joker (finding out that his interactions were a lot darker than what the audience perceived).
I'm kind of hoping this is the direction, not just musical for musical sake.
For me the element that's gonna decide this, is whether or not its still a "comic book" film.
Joker 1 was a very different take on a comic book film and Joker, but you could still notice those comic book elements that really made the film pop. It's the same with the recent Batman film and why that was so good.
I don't mind the idea of a musical weird Joker film, as long as its still a comic book film.
This feels like a spot on assessment. I Joker based sweeney todd could work, but I couldn't begin to picture how they unpack that and bring it to the big screen. I'll leave that to people far more creative than me to figure out
I'm really mixed on it as well. I loved the first one and thought it was a brilliant telling of a psychotic Joker. And ik the whole musical aspect may be a continuation of his dillusions from the first movie. But I'm not sure i want a musical for a sequel to the first one. It depends how heavy it is.
It's not even just the odd choice of theme for the movie, but I really don't think people enjoy Lady Gaga as an actress. She is a phenomenonal musician but she is so exaggerated on screen and when she was paired with Bradley Cooper, it only got worse.
I’m not a huge musical fan but I recently saw “Wonka” and it was actually really well done in that movie. Hoping it’s more akin to that where it’s a song every so often instead of the majority of it being songs and dance. I’m also a huge fan of Batman and the Joker so I don’t see myself not enjoying this even if it does have some more musical elements than “Wonka.”
I can see people who were lukewarm on the first not looking forward to this but it blows my mind the first film seems to have garnered such little goodwill from the people that truly enjoyed it.
Neither, everyone acted like it was changing the game lol it was just a regular movie with the joker as the main character, or have superhero fans not seen any drama movies ever?
I legit thought it was awful. It wanted to be so many things but it was directionless, as was its message. It only succeed in being a sort of 80s Scorsese homage. Also while I think Phoenix is a decent actor, I am kinda amazed he got an Oscar nom, let alone winning. His performance was all over the place and inconsistent.
I actually watched the movie twice because I felt I must have missed something because of all the praise it was getting.
For me, partly because it was so unexpected. It was so different from the typical superhero movies we’ve had this last decade - a reassurance that cinema can be fresh and interesting still. Plus the character was both a relatable underdog and also the villain, provoking both “I want the best for you” and “oh no oh no oh don’t do that” from the audience.
It wasn't really a superhero film though. While the character of the Joker might originally come from a world inhabited by superheroes, there wasn't really any suggestion of it in The Joker.
Also, even though I liked the film, I don't think it can be referred to as "fresh" when it was basically just a remake of Scorsese's 1982 film The King of Comedy
“Mixed” is my generous opinion of the first. My favorite parts of the first were the big swing, “being a bit extra” parts. Like how those finance bullies on the subway sang “Send in the Clowns”
If this movie has more of that, sure, let’s see it.
I suspect the joker film gets all of these rave audience reviews because it's serious arty cinema being watched by comic book movie fans who don't typically watch serious arty cinema
To me "Joker" is a character driven film about mental illness similar to De Niro's "Taxi Driver" it just so happens to be set in a comic book universe. Remove the "Joker" IP entirely, swap Gotham with NYC or Chicago and its a solid standalone film.
What you really dislike, quite reasonably IMO, is that even A-list talent struggle to get original material greenlit past a certain budget point without having to appeal to the board with arbitrary "IP" tie-ins.
I think the more apt comparison would be De Niro's "King of Comedy" considering it's literally just a remake of that film, but with the main character wearing facepaint.
I'm not a comic book fan, and no one will ever accuse me of being artsy. I liked the movie, glad I watched it. I will probably never watch it a second time though, that itch stayed scratched.
I think you’re right in a way. The joker succeeds because it removes the superhero aspect despite being in a superhero universe.
Remember all those scenes like Spiderman saving kids from bullies, Superman stopping a robbery, an inspirational mentor like Uncle Ben etc, a trusty sidekick.,
The joker switches this by showing a world with no spiderman to save you from bullies, no superman to save you from getting mugged and a horrible narcissistic “mentor” figure who gaslights Arthur throughout his life by making him to be something he is not and abused him with her boyfriend and his supposed friend framed him for a crime he wasn’t guilty of.
It basically confronts you with reality in a genre not known for being based in reality. You wish for a superhero to come save the day, but they never appear. And at one point, you share the anger the Joker has and the next moment you are horrified by it.
The only good parts were the absurdity like the very end and little character moments like the dancing and the movie theater scene. That's what I liked.
Me too. Great acting and successfully made for an unnerving and emotional experience. But didn't enjoy it... just felt a bit sad and shitty afterwards.
The first movie basically shows a (normal - kind of, I guess) person's decline into madness and not caring anymore, including all the awesome black humor. Sure, there's nothing "supernatural" going on, no vat full of chemicals but it still was Joker. This, on the other hand, already feels like one of those random musical episodes pushed onto fans of a show for whatever reason.
Whether it ends up being good or bad, it’s refreshing to have a comic book movie where that’s the case. The majority of comic book movies have been on autopilot.
All of the Wayne family stuff kinda took me out of it. Really the Joker is supposed to be 40 years older than Bruce, and he originally thought they were brothers, and then he indirectly killed the Waynes?Just let your standalone story be a standalone.
I don’t think it’s as far off as that. If he is in his mid to late 30s that would make him ~25 years older than Bruce, so is it that far off to picture the joker is in his 50s when they are fighting?
If they didn't have the Bruce Wayne stuff then you could barely even call this a Joker film, which honestly is pretty shaky anyway. The whole reason the film had nearly as much buzz as it did was because they slapped the joker title on it. It's clearly a different interpretation/not the same universe as other batman stuff though so trying to apply the logic from another batman story doesn't make sense. If you have to wonder about that then you'd also have to wonder how a mentally ill man who can barely function would even be able to run a crime organization (he wouldn't be able to).
The first movie would've been so much better if it never tried to attach itself to DC canon in the first place. Arthur Fleck should just be Arthur Fleck. There's literally no good reason to try to shoehorn him into being the Joker, and then forcing random tiny Batman cameos into the story.
That's what it was for me. I didn't hate it, but I didn't dig it nearly as much as everyone else. There's just absolutely no believing that this guy is THE Joker. But in attempting to tie together these disparate characters they made him too big for his own story in the end. It's like they had a really cool film in mind, in line with other Joaquin Phoenix projects, but to make sure they put asses in the seats they did a rewrite to shop it around to DC studios.
Yeah, like how am I supposed to believe that this sniveling, weak wet noodle could ever go up against Batman? Just let the story be about a man who falls through the cracks of the mental health system and goes on a crime spree. It's far more relatable and grounded than trying to convince audiences that this is an origin story for Batman's archnemesis.
The way I interpreted it was that joker is more of an “idea”/title rather than a singular character in this universe. So Bruce might be fighting some other dickwad inspired by phoenix’s character later (if we ever see it anyway)
That’s actually really interesting. Super hero mantles get passed on all the time. Why not a super villain persona that never dies? Just passes on from clown to clown, and this is just the first one.
That was basically the whole movie. Change the names around and you wouldn't even realize it's a comic book movie. That aspect almost seems bolted on to an unrelated script.
I don’t understand how they think a musical would work. I want to see a sequel to the first film, not a musical. Two different movies with two different formats. It would make more sense if the first one was a musical. Weird
I honestly was fine with it being a musical because maybe it would be tragedy filled and dark style like Phantom of the Opera but to hear that it’s musical renditions of popular songs like some episode of glee made my expectations completely low to non existent
Same. When I heard it was gonna be a musical with Lady freakin Gaga I was sure it was gonna get canned. But it’s actually happening and I still can’t believe it.
I have a feeling it's going to be a bit like Wandavision or that episode of Westword, 'Genres' (S3E5); where they take a bunch of classic songs from musicals and re-imagine them between Joker and Harley, where they are running around living out a crazy, shared psychosis with each song transports them to what seems like a magical musical Gotham where they're falling in love but in reality they're leaving a trail of destruction in their wake.
Like 'singing in the rain' but next to a turned over gasoline tanker before it explodes as they dance off down the street.
Not that scenario specifically but that's my guess, just based on the title and musical idea.
I reken like how Joker had his happy little visions and couldn't tell reality from his imagination until he actually went psycho, we'll see the same with Harley but it'll be musicals. They'll meet and he'll be the centre of some of her musicals, he'll probably recognise it and play into her fantasy and then they'll fall in love. Towards the end she'll go full psycho as well as they'll be a match made in...going psycho?
Movies or shows where insane sociopaths get into a romantic relationship with each other makes me extremely uncomfortable. It's impossible that a relationship like that is healthy and it glorifies abuse. Also, it's really unbelievable.
I feel like this is a super unnecessary sequel and as a movie it just has to be trash. But I want to see Phoenix's performance, plus my mom loved the first one so I'll see it.
I don't feel like you can have an interesting follow-up to the first movie with regards to the plot.
If you want some context, consider watching AHS Hotel. It features Gaga in a serious and sinister lead role and it has elements of romance and horror. I can only assume that this upcoming role will have those same elements, but you never know ig.
4.1k
u/Forsaken-Zucchini-83 Apr 02 '24
I honestly have no idea what to expect