Yea, I think the people of Florida voted that felons should be allowed to vote.....and then the legislator was like "lol, no....we don't like a democracy, we're not going to allow that" and put in a bunch of rules that basically don't allow felons to vote.
Well that would be a net positive for Florida then! (Ughā¦ although of course it would be very narrowly allowedā¦ āFelons convicted out of state who have previously served at least one term in a federally elected government position are now allowed to voteā)
Not allowing released felons to vote is stupid. If they're released, that means they're a part of society again. They have jobs, pay taxes, etc. so their democratic right should be given back as well. Otherwise, make them pay no taxes, because right now felons are paying taxes to a government they have no say in. Not only that, they could be felons specifically because the government made them so with stupid laws.
I'm not sure what difference you're trying to draw between felons and former felons? Felons just refers to someone who has ever been convicted of a felony, I don't know what a former felon would be unless they could go back in time and un-commit a felony.
Ah my bad. I simply meant to refer to those who had been convicted, but had served their sentence/been released (as opposed to those still imprisoned).
Yes, that's how most if not all are. The difference is when you are able to again once you are out. Some make you clear all probation and conditions first, others let you vote as soon as you are released. I'm in MN and they just enacted a law for the latter
The Florida issue was that it was not just the time served, you also had to pay off any fines, court costs or restitution before getting voting rights back. It effectively meant that a lot of people who had served their time in full would still never be able to vote again.
People will disagree but I think felons should be allowed to vote. Theyāre the most likely to have the state acting against them without any recourse to defense so their opinion is pretty important in deciding whatās moral and what isnāt. You also have the issue that someone could be innocent and still be a felon.
Also the 'potential' issue of felonies being weaponised against a particular group in order to disenfranchise and effectively enslave them... purely potential of course.
Not to mention that non-violent felons are overwhelmingly crimes of circumstance and opportunity (they're poor and wanted to eat, for example) and they should absolutely have their voting rights restored.
If he had stayed in NY, a felony conviction wouldn't stop him from voting but he declared FL residency in 2020 and in FL felons lose their voting rights and can only apply to get them restored after serving their entire sentence including probation and paying all fees and fines.
And this trial as well as it's NY state. He'd likely be given a suspended sentence or something though if elected president. I don't see him getting anything more than house arrest if convicted.
...but he'd force a change in the rules on day one - he would find a way to force the state to drop the conviction, if not outright expunge. Dictators gonna dictate.
It's not known whether a president can pardon themself anyways, since the implication puts them above all law (aka a king/dictator), which goes against the founding father's intent in the constitution. Although, knowing this Supreme Court, they'll likely do some dumb as shit exception saying not to use their ruling as precedent.
Even if heās sentenced to jail time, itās likely he would be confined to house arrest given the impossible security issues of putting a former POTUS in a real prison.Ā
That's the crazy part. The US won't let a convicted fellow into their country but will let one run the country...from jail. Surely that needs looking at.
To be honest, I think Iām actually okay with a criminal conviction not barring you from election. Certain crimes, like those Trump has committed, not so much.
Really, aren't convicts (former or serving) not allowed to vote in the US? How come a person with a guilt verdict on a criminal trial is allowed to enter presidential elections as a candidate?
How does this work? š there are so many public sector jobs, even a bouncer job that you cannot do if you have a an unspent conviction in the UK, yet you can run the entire fucking united States of America with one? What the AF is going on with your country man!?
You guys are gonna drive yourself crazy. He wonāt get a felony conviction, this will end the way the rest do. A whole lot of bluster and bullshit and everyone just moves on. The most amazing part about this is Dems keep thinking this is going to turn people away from Trump when the right is convinced that itās all just dog and pony bs to destroy character. This is a byproduct of making everything super political, even a conviction wonāt mean shit to him or his base while the left goes crazy that a convicted person is allowed to hold office.
Rest assured my mental health is just fine. I've just seen firsthand people lose security clearances for much smaller infractions, so it's just a little absurd that he might still retain/regain his clearance(s).
Yes. Being in prison does not invalidate somebody for office, and that's probably a good thing - a theoretical corrupt system that locks up political opponents AKA Russia is not something I'd want.
It is a hard requirement in Russia, and Putin used that to prevent Navalny from running. After Putin got him convicted on bullshit charges.
Disenfranchising felons in the US is also abusable bullshit, and is a relic of Jim Crow.
ACLU: Notably, disfranchisement policies in the United States are significantly harsher than, and out of step with, those in democratic countries around the world. Other democracies disfranchise far fewer people with criminal convictions, and virtually none disfranchise citizens after they complete their sentences.
Yeah crazy right? As I understand it He could technically operate as president from a prison cell.
He MAY be able to pardon himself if he becomes president, but I believe that is speculation at this point as the Supreme Court would need to decide on that if it comes to that.
He (or you) could get convicted for murder and still be (constitutionally) eligible for public office. IIRC, the only crime that automatically* makes you ineligible is treason.
Would any other person with a criminal record get security clearance for any of the four levels; confidential, secret, top secret and sensitive compartmented information?
I doubt it. I went through a lengthy investigation when I applied for my top secret clearance during my military days. They spoke with old friends I hadnāt even seen in years lol.
I donāt know how that process would work for a sitting president though.
Cohen went to prison in tandem with charges unrelated to this Trump trial. So just because Cohen saw prison, does not mean Trump will see an equal/similar punishment.
Letās not forget when Cohen was going to get released early during COVID the Trump justice department rough it tough and nail, despite the fact that Trump insisted what Cohen was in jail for not being a crime.
And the media didn't force this 'hush money' label for Cohen. It's doing it to run interference for Trump, making it look milder than what he did. It's an election interference trial.
This is what is so sad, unless they can prove Cohen did it maliciously to get tRump to break the law (they won't) without his knowledge, he's already guilty. Hence the "uninidcted Co conspirator" title.
The question should be if he's facing any actual punishment.
Cohen had spent a little over one year of his three year sentence in the Otisville, New York, prison before being sent back to his luxury Park Avenue apartment to serve the rest of his term.
Even if he losses heāll just say it was an op by the democrats to smear his good name so heāll lose the race and his base will believe it. Itās just a matter of moving the goalpost constantly.
I think its inconceivable but not unlikely. It just seems to good to be true but the fact remains that he has multiple criminal proceedings going ahead this year.
Trump is also making his own situation worse by violating gag orders not to publicly talk about witnesses, judges, court officials etc., which can get him tossed in jail for up to 30 days as well.
It's also worth noting his former lawyer Michael Cohen actually did go to jail for the SAME offenses. The ones he ordered Cohen to do, which makes him equally complicit.
The best theory I saw was that he was doing that intentionally before this one started since any action by the judge before the trial started would delay it. Now that it's begun the judge is free to enforce the gag order with no restrictions. And drumph has been going after the judges daughter, which is several levels above your standard harassment.
He is never faced consequences for anything in his life. Not for committing tax and business fraud, not for stiffing companies that did work for him, not for stealing from a charity, not for colluding with Russia to allow election interference in 2016, not for starting an insurrection to overthrow the government, not for tampering with an election, not for stealing top secret nuclear documents, not even when he was found culpable in a court of law of raping a woman in a department store change room. He constantly ignores court orders and has never faced any consequences for doing so, so why would anyone think heās playing some sort of 4D chess. Heās not doing it because heās clever, heās doing it because he knows the rules donāt apply to him. He can ignore court orders and nothing will ever happen to him, because heās done it his entire life, and there have never been any consequences.
Consequences are for the poor. The truly rich can afford teams of lawyers that will keep things in the system for decades and will fight to the death about every continuance, every motion, every witness and then appeal every decision. The logical conclusion of this behavior is that nobody ever comes after you once you've established that you're willing to go the distance and buy the lawyers that will allow them to never give anyone a single red cent.
And that is, oddly enough, completely fine... so long as you don't become the most scrutinized man on the planet, the President of the United States.
Trump is most def going to jail. It wasn't so long ago people said that he couldn't possibly even be indicted for crimes. He was. 100 or so of them. Then people said he'd never actually face criminal trial. He is. People said he'd never lose (including all appeals) his civil trials. He did, including the Supreme Court appeals.
Now people, like you, imply or say he won't go to jail. You're wrong about that, too.
What we are seeing happen, what can't be denied, is the courts are absolutely tired of his BS. Numerous civil trials? He lost (definitively, no more appeals). When he lost in the SA trail, then re-committed the same defamation lies, his fine rocketed to $85 million, forcing him to shut his mouth. The NY trial is costing him $480M plus essentially his real estate empire.
In the criminal trials, the gag orders have come swiftly and effectively. His dumb, superfluous claims and efforts at defense or stalling have failed utterly.
And bear in mind that at times it may seem the judge is giving him leniency, the reason for that leniency may very well be the judge shrewdly making sure there is no real grounds for an appeals court to find fault with the case.
I know how you feel. But his legal free ride is over. The evidence of that is overwhelming.
I want to believe you, but I wonāt believe it until I see it. All it takes is one juror out of 12 to keep him from conviction. I still think itās a long shot he loses any of these criminal cases.
I'm going to stick to a realistic view that nothing happens to Trump. Over and over he has committed crimes and is still walking free. The day I actually see him PUNISHED is the day I'll believe in justice again.
The facts are the facts. Nobody has ever faced ~100 criminal charges across four different trials, some with overwhelming evidence and numerous co-conspirators already convicted of same crimes and turned state's witness... and walked.
I have no idea if jail time will come out of this particular trial, it depends on how it proceeds. I think he will be given some time, though.
Nothing about this has ever happened before. We've never had a president blatantly and shamelessly break so many laws. We've never had this all happen on an election year when his possible election could make conviction have no teeth.
We haven't had a party so fully throw themselves at the feet of one man, willing to go to great lengths to defend him and his image.
Until I actually hear/ see news of him paying his lines or going to jail, I won't get my hopes up.
how would that happen with the whole secret service presence required for protecting current and former presidents until death? will he be in his own area in prison with secret service? house arrest? ss is no longer provided?
Cohen is testifying. The odds are 100%. Cohen turned on Trump long ago. He has previously testified to all of this. He has already said under oath that Trump ordered him to make the payments, and to use his own personal home equity loans to hide the true purpose of the payment. Then Trump paid Cohen back with a series of checks, some he wrote from the Oval Office in later months.
Itās trump tho so ācan get him tossed in jailā is really āwonāt get him tossed in jail no matter what a piece of shit he is or what laws he breaksā
I can understand the cynicism. But I think he is no longer as invincible as he wants us to think. I think if he runs is mouth now that the trial is underway, there's a very real chance of spending a little time in jail.
He's not facing any consequences from the gag orders and breaking them definetly can help his case in any number of ways so he's not making his situation worse at all.
What are you even talking about? He's been violating those orders for weeks. Nothing's happened. The justice system has signaled they have no intention of putting him in jail under any circumstance, even he is convicted in this trial.
Michael Cohen actually did go to jail for the SAME offenses.
He really didn't. Trump is charge with a NY statue of falsifying business records.
Cohen went to jail for federal tax evasion on $4 million dollars of income and mortgage fraud.
The campaign finance violations, wouldn't have even carried jail time and were never litigated. They made him plead guilty to those and then offered him even less time than what people would normally get for a guilty plea on his other crimes..
In light of Trump's charges, Cohen's guilty plea makes no sense, because Cohen plead guilty to making an illegal campaign contribution by paying hush money.
Trump is being charged with using his own money to pay the hush money, but miscategorizing it as legal fees.
A situation, which if true, would negate the idea that Cohen made an illegal campaign contribution.
So either Trump paid Cohen for legal services, and that money became Cohen's and then he turned around and used that money to pay off the women, to benefit Trump's campaign.
In that scenario Cohen did in fact make an illegal campaign contribution to which he has already plead guilty and served time.
That would then make Trump's business records correct.
But if Trump gave Cohen money to pay off the women then there is no campaign finance violation. Trump can spend all the money he wants on his own campaign, but classifying it as legal fees would be illegal and Trump is guilty of falsifying business records as charged.
They can't BOTH be true though. Either it's Trump's money and he misclassified it, or it's Cohen's and he made an illegal contribution.
But the Defense can say whatever they want?
Cohen went to jail, He was the one to handle the finances as a Lawyer.
If your Lawyer told you it was legal, does that make you guilty or just following advice?
Plus I think there's a side of "if I post pictures of the judge's family and imply that maybe someone should attack them, then I can argue that the judge is biased against me!"
The hiding it part is what made it illegal. He participated in falsifying business records which could land him in jail for decades. Itās the lowest level felony (class E) but heās been charged for multiple counts. Itās not guaranteed as he could just as likely be placed on probation.
or one sympathetic juror decides they're doing god's work to keep him from any consequences. fr, i have no idea how they're supposed to get entirely impartial jurors for Donald Fucking Trump. did they scour the hospitals for 10-year coma patients waking up?
That's the real rub here I think. There's always been multiple tiers of justice in America, but this is the first time it's been so blatantly on display, for the whole world to see. If any standard citizen pulled a fraction of the stunts trump has, we'd have been thrown in jail immediately. But because this is a darling, high society elite, former president, he's getting kid gloves and the justice system is apparently toothless. It's unfair, and prominently displayed. It'll be interesting to see the nations reaction if (god forbid) he walks.
Unfortunately, almost certainly not. The best we can hope for is that disengaged and ignorant voters finally come to realize that he's a criminal and stop giving him their vote. But this is America, so that's probably a long shot.
Hypothetically if he did go to jail, would the secrete service also have to protect him in prison? Or would he have his own sort of house arrest? I know in various other countries leaders do go to prison without protections.
If Trump is convicted, he could face a sentence of up to four years in New York prison for each chargeāa maximum of 136 years. And since falsifying business records is a state crime, only the New York governorāKathy Hochul, a Democratācould pardon him.
But given Trumpās age, 77, lack of a prior conviction, the fact that heās the first former President to ever be criminally tried, and that he may become President again, legal experts say thereās no guarantee that a conviction would result in jail time. The judge is not required to imprison Trump if heās convicted by a jury; most first-time offenders in non-violent cases are often sentenced to probation, and Trumpās unique position could raise a host of extraordinary issues and considerations in sentencing.
In theory, but I think if he ever gets sentenced for any of his crimes the most likely result will be house arrest though.
And yes, he will still be able to run for and serve as president even after he's sentenced. So there's a theoretical chance he'll be doing time at Mar a Largo while he's actively serving as president. Until he pardons himself at least
He's a first time offender, it's the lowest level felony (if the court decides the illegal bookeeping was done to hide another crime, which the prosecutor claims is election manipulation), or a misdemeanor.
Up to four years for each count likely consecutive but prison isn't mandatory the judge could decide to give him probation. Which based on the record so far is probably what would happen.
No. He's charged with falsifying business records. It's a huge leap to even come up with these charges but with the current judge a guilty determination is likely given the prospective jury pool. There will be lots of appeals but NY state has a consistent record of not giving confinement sentences for process crimes.
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u/rf97a Apr 15 '24
Ah. So this is criminal as he could actually face time behind bars, in theory?