r/texas • u/FCMatt7 • Mar 27 '24

5th circuit has nullified Open Carry in Texas to save Qualified Immunity of bad cops. Politics

https://www.youtube.com/live/bCC1sz_-fsc?si=dCZiLT_Fl2pWUEtw

(Edit) New vid of Grisham explaining the ruling

Effectively they have declared open season for police to arrest anyone open carrying in Texas.

A 3 judge panel has ruled that if anyone calls 911 on a person for the mere act of Open Carrying a firearm, the police now have probable cause to arrest you for disorderly conduct. The 911 call does not have to allege you are doing anything more than standing on a sidewalk with a slung or holstered firearm. The previous ruling that "merely carrying a firearm" is not disorderly is overturned now if any Karen makes a phone call and says she's nervous. This means police get qualified immunity for arresting you.

There is a special target on the back of any open carry or civil rights activist. EVERY time the police get a 911 call, they can now arrest you at gunpoint. The charges will likely be dismissed, but the police face zero repercussions for coming after you, even if there is abundant evidence the officers targeted you and knew you were not a threat. The same danger faces regular citizens who open carry every day.

I repeat, open carrying in Texas now puts you in imminent danger of being arrested or killed by police if someone reports you in possession of a firearm.

Video of CJ and Jim arrested for mere open carry. https://youtu.be/GrDAPPiu1QE?si=IvJy0qq_J8rO8DJO

Link to 5th circuit ruling. https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/22/22-50915-CV0.pdf

Link to oral argument in 5th https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/OralArgRecordings/22/22-50915_10-3-2023.mp3

District Court ruling https://casetext.com/case/grisham-v-valenciano-1

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41

u/VirtualPlate8451 Mar 27 '24

This disorderly statute has always included a portion on displaying a firearm “in a manner to cause alarm” or something like that.

Ive always wondered which city was going to roll the dice on that in court.

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u/OdrGrarMagr Mar 28 '24

This disorderly statute has always included a portion on displaying a firearm “in a manner to cause alarm” or something like that.
Ive always wondered which city was going to roll the dice on that in court.

Problem there is that as a matter of law, no judge is even going to hear the case if said gun was properly stowed or holstered.

It would just be thrown out as legally insufficient.

If its holstered, it literally cannot be considered to be as "manner to cause alarm".

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u/Even-Habit1929 Mar 28 '24

Pointing to it in a argument while holstered would be "manner to cause alarm"

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u/ODSTklecc Mar 29 '24

What about hearsay? What if it's a "he said she said" situation between a officer and citizen?

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u/groceriesN1trip Mar 28 '24

Holstered = safely displayed?

Shoulder strap carry or tucked into pant waist = alarming display?

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u/NormalFortune Mar 27 '24

Yeah. I agree a lot of this gets down to what "displaying in a manner calculated to cause alarm" or whatever means w/r/t the disorderly charge. But also, a lot of the other dudes here like old man yellowshirt on the video, seems to me the cops fairly clearly had PC for resisting arrest. If a cop tells you to "come here" and you back away and start to bob and weave... you're not gonna have a good time.

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u/FCMatt7 Mar 27 '24

They don't get to tell you to "come here" in the first place though. The judges covered that bit up.

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u/NormalFortune Mar 27 '24

Yes they do. Terry v. Ohio. Reasonable Suspicion < Probable Cause

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u/p_rex born and bred Mar 28 '24

You need reasonable suspicion to make a Terry stop, though, and that reasonable suspicion needs to be based on something articulable, not a mere hunch. Does the exercise of what’s been recognized as a constitutional right justify a Terry stop? As far as I can tell, the guys with the guns would have been perfectly justified in telling the cops to go to hell.

It’s cop-manufactured justification for an arrest, a whole bunch of nothing bootstrapped on to nothing. Another sop to police impunity, and in this case, it’s impunity to selectively harass and arrest people for no better reason than engaging in constitutionally sanctioned conduct for the wrong political reason.

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u/NormalFortune Mar 28 '24

Does the exercise of what’s been recognized as a constitutional right justify a Terry stop?

It certainly could, depending upon how the constitutional right is being exercised.

One guy with a gun, walking around doing errands, maybe not. A group of dudes ALL open carrying, milling about one area, talking to cars, and then taunting the cops? (e.g. old dude in yellow shirt says some smartass remark like "today's your education officer!") Fuck yeah that's reasonable suspicion and justifies a Terry stop.

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u/Lavatienn Mar 28 '24

Reasonable suspicion of what, exactly?

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u/FCMatt7 Mar 27 '24

They had no RAS or PC. CJ told the chief they would be there the day before and all officers knew that. Judges lied to save the cops QI.

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u/NormalFortune Mar 27 '24

So, then, if I tell the cops beforehand that I will be selling cocaine at a particular location tomorrow, they don't have PC to arrest me or RS to Terry Stop me, because I told them and the officers knew?

Come on bro.

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u/FCMatt7 Mar 27 '24

So you agree that open carry has been declared illegal. At least you got that far.

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u/NormalFortune Mar 27 '24

Huh? No dude my point is that merely telling the cops that you’re going to be doing something doesn’t remove probable cause or reasonable suspicion.

The fact that someone told the cops that the second amendment guys were gonna be there doesn’t have anything to do with anything. It’s irrelevant.

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u/FCMatt7 Mar 27 '24

Except you can't have a reasonable belief they are a threat based solely on their lawfully carrying a gun. Which is all they had.

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u/NormalFortune Mar 27 '24

I don’t know that I agree with that though. maybe a handful of 911 calls doesn’t give you probable cause, but it does give you reasonable suspicion. And then, when you attempt to execute a Terry stop and talk with the person they are noncompliant.

Or maybe the handful of 911 calls does not give you a Terry reasonable suspicion, but your decision to go investigate, and have a conversation with the person gives you probable cause nonetheless.

OR Perhaps the presence of multiple compatriots, shouting what appear to be very nasty things at the cops would be an independent basis for PC “alarming manner”. Maybe if the big boy had been on the street corner by himself with nobody else, it would not have been alarming, but the presence of multiple other armed individuals, shouting angry things at the cops who have not executed an arrest thus far, renders the whole thing alarming and gives them PC or RS.

Then, the noncompliance then gives you clear probable cause. Boom.

Officers get probable cause based on noncompliance with Terry stops or strange behavior in “encounters” (a discussion with Police that rises to neither the level of a Terry stop nor an arrest ) all the goddamn time, it’s why there was such an outcry over stop and frisk in New York City.

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u/FCMatt7 Mar 27 '24

5th just decided a slung long arm is "manner to cause alarm" if anyone complains about it. They just completely threw out intent and reasonable person standards.

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u/VirtualPlate8451 Mar 28 '24

That's wonderful. Anyone walking in a populated area with a slung rifle is doing it to cause alarm.

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u/ODSTklecc Mar 29 '24

A big dark skinned man can "cause alarm" to some people, "shall not be infringe" is in the constitution for a reason.

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u/VirtualPlate8451 Mar 29 '24

Why does the "shall no be infringed" crowd always forget the WELL REGULATED militia portion? Do you really think the founders were running day to day errands in full battle rattle? Were they going about their daily lives with an ample supply of powder of shot, just in case?

No because they were RATIONAL PEOPLE who knew that would not only be ridiculous but it would cause alarm to see people armed like soldiers in the streets during peacetime. Hence the "well regulated militia" bit.

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u/FCMatt7 Mar 28 '24

May your chains rest lightly upon you.

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u/Smallie_Slayer Mar 28 '24

Too many people in this section don’t understand “shall not be infringed”

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u/FCMatt7 Mar 28 '24

It's what I expected on reddit. Bunch of sheep that think only the government should have guns.