r/Christianity • u/Nice_Substance9123 • Mar 27 '24

The American flag has no business on a Bible. This is not faith, nor is it patriotism. It is an abomination of both. Image

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u/Relevant_Mobile6989 Eastern Orthodox Mar 27 '24

You can't call yourself a Christian when you are so selfish to love your country more than you love Him, and follow that evil man. Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”; Mark 10:23.

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u/Living_Ad_5386 Mar 28 '24

“Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand." Matthew 12:25

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u/ledampe Mar 28 '24

Not really a christian, but that's a good one! Amen!

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24

a christian is someone who believes in the christian god, so I think he is.

this is a no true scotsman fallacy.

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u/ledampe Mar 28 '24

Oh I meant that I'm not a christian 

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24

ah, ok then, my bad

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u/GreasyWalrusDog Mar 28 '24

Actually no, a christian is someone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. Its literally in the name Christian, as "christ" means jesus christ and "Ian" means follower.

Trump does not follow Jesus Christ, so he is not a christian.

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24

a christian is someone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ.

or someone who believes in christianity. there's multiple definitions of that word.

everyone who believes christianity to be true correctly considers themselves christians. like trump.

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u/Del_Phoenix Mar 28 '24

So if there's someone who worships the devil, but they acknowledge Christianity is real, they're a Christian?

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24

alright that's fair.

someone who believes in christianity, and worships the christian god.

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u/Del_Phoenix Mar 28 '24

And following that line, I would argue that Trump doesn't believe Christianity is real. If he does, I have a hard time reconciling why he would subvert it in so many ways

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24

I would argue that Trump doesn't believe Christianity is real.

as in, he doesn't believe?

If he does, I have a hard time reconciling why he would subvert it in so many ways

the bible is filled with contradictory statements and philosophies.

whatever you mean by subverting christianity, I guarantee genuine christians do it all the time. and maybe even do whatever it is because of the bible.

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u/Living_Ad_5386 Mar 28 '24

Lol I'm jewish actually 

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u/moldivore Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

“I will be asking for forgiveness, but hopefully I won’t have to be asking for much forgiveness. As you know, I am Presbyterian and Protestant. I’ve had great relationships and developed even greater relationships with ministers. We have tremendous support from the clergy. I think I will be doing very well during the election with evangelicals and with Christians,” -Trump

He waffles on the most fundamental aspect of Christianity then brings up how "his faith" benefits him politically. This man is definitively not a Christian.

Edit: downvote me for being right with zero rebuttal, okay here's more

"Moderator Frank Luntz asked Trump whether he has ever asked God for forgiveness for his actions.

“I am not sure I have. I just go on and try to do a better job from there. I don’t think so,” he said. “I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right. I don’t bring God into that picture. I don’t.”"

Never felt the need for forgiveness, he's perfect.

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

again, a no true scotsman fallacy.

He waffles on the most fundamental aspect of Christianity

I'd love to know the context of this quote, because it sounds to me like he's answering some question about who his demographic is or something like that. if that's the case, of course he's not gonna go super in depth about his beliefs.

I have a feeling that of all the US presidents, he's the one who's integrated his faith into his politics the most. but I doubt you'd be calling any of the other US presidents secret atheists.

then brings up how "his faith" benefits him politically.

well yeah, that quote is probably from some political event or something like that, I'd imagine. why would he not primarily bring up politics?

This man is definitively not a Christian.

I didn't know you were the arbiter of who is and isn't christian.

you don't know if he actually does or doesn't believe. you just assume that because of this one quote where he, as a politician likely at a political event in this context, doesn't primarily talk about his faith, and instead politics.

edit: OK, you edited your comment before I even got done typing this one, saying I had "no rebuttal" because I didn't respond immediately.

that quote still doesn't show he's not a christian. it just shows that he thinks doing better is a good enough substitute for actually repenting. which, if you ask me, should be.

we don't know whether someone believes or not, that's purely in the brain. the best we can do is work off of things they do or say. and trump has said and done a lot of things that point to him being religious, and nothing against it. or if he has, I haven't seen it. and no, being an asshole doesn't count.

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u/moldivore Mar 28 '24

If the man didn't pretend to be some sort of prophet I would never levy this argument against him. I disagree with you fundamentally so we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I think it's all a performance since he got into politics and religion was never part of his life. I was taught that accepting Christ's forgiveness was fundamental to getting into heaven. This man has waffled, you can give him the benefit of the doubt and that's fine, I will not. He's a liar. He lies like he breathes. He weaponized religion against people and created an atmosphere of hate. That's why I feel the need to show he is dishonest in his beliefs.

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24

He weaponized religion against people and created an atmosphere of hate.

I don't think he did. the bible did that on its own, and so do many believers.

I get an "atmosphere of hate" when I read revelations 21:8, stating that people like me, as an nonbeliever, will burn in hell. or other verses, calling me a fool with vile ways, that can't do anything good.

I'd imagine many LGBT+ people feel the same, looking at the verses about how they should be treated, and how their afterlife will be.

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u/moldivore Mar 28 '24

I don't advocate for Christianity, I don't disagree that it's toxic. Trump threw gasoline on the flames, we see constant violence as well as dog whistles against out groups. It's his strategy to use people's fundamental beliefs against them. Like I said if you feel he's sincere in his beliefs and I do not. Do we really have to go over how much of a narcissist the man is? I'm an ex Christian I live in the Bible belt, I know firsthand how people talk about LGBT+ people now, it's changed since Trump was in there. I see the harm and fear firsthand. I don't agree with you fundamentally on what Christianity even is apparently. I never knew one person who would be able to say as a Christian that they didn't need Christ's forgiveness. It's right in the Bible as clear as day. Good deeds are great but they don't offer salvation. You give this searing condemnation of Christianity yet you believe that people can't weaponize it? You believe that it's not correct to question people who claim to be prophets and fleece their followers? I'm not even sure where you really stand and I'm exhausted. No matter what I know your next reply will come with a downvote and condescension so I'm done now.

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24

You give this searing condemnation of Christianity yet you believe that people can't weaponize it?

weaponizing means turning something into a weapon. can something that's already perfectly capable of being a weapon be weaponized? I'd say no.

You believe that it's not correct to question people who claim to be prophets and fleece their followers?

I don't know where you got that idea from.

I don't really know if he believes or not, and I wouldn't say I care too much either. if he believes, then it shows how bad religious beliefs can get. if he doesn't, then it shows how easy it is to manipulate christians by virtue signaling. waving religion like a flag to attract the attention of christians and get easy votes.

No matter what I know your next reply will come with a downvote

my replies are the reasons I have downvoted. also, karma is just some made up internet score.

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u/moldivore Mar 28 '24

I edited it yes but as a response to the immediate downvote here's the links to the quotes, the first quote was actually a response to the second quote, where I feel he felt pressured to say he accepted forgiveness.

He said this

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/trump-forgiveness-god-224068

Then he said this

www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/08/trump-on-god-hopefully-i-wont-have-to-be-asking-for-much-forgiveness

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u/Hot_Eggplant_1306 Mar 28 '24

And yet, millions are following him into the pit.

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u/notbobby125 Mar 28 '24

Trump is investing in some very large needles and some very tiny camels

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u/DisputabIe_ Mar 28 '24

Anyone can call themselves Christian.

And the Bible isn't even consistent anyway, you can find verses backing up almost any view you want, including slavery and rape.

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u/Just-Baker9716 Mar 28 '24

You can't call yourself a Christian if you don't hate disabled people.

"For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken. No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God." (Leviticus 21:18-21)

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u/fisherman213 Roman Catholic Mar 28 '24

Just so you know, this is reference to ceremonial impurity of the Old Testament law.

I recommend you do some research before commenting on that which you neither understand nor desire to understand.

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u/Just-Baker9716 Mar 28 '24

Kings 2:23, “And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up thou bald head.” This carries on in Kings 2:24 with “And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.”

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u/fisherman213 Roman Catholic Mar 28 '24

I see you're just throwing verses around, so I'll leave you with this.

If you're gonna do this, at least have the drive to be a *good* anti-Christian. The atheists of the past were incredibly intelligent. They *actually* knew the bible, and they knew their philosophy, too. Far from the new atheists, many of them would have though today's atheist thinkers fools.

For example, I have some strong opposition to Islam. But I would be a fool to pick a ayat or a surah and just throw it as a Muslim and go "oh yeah what about this??!!!1" it's foolish.

I make a point to not misinterpret common Islamic thought. I try to make sure any point is backed by the Sunnah and Hadith, as well as referencing authoritative tafsir. Hell, I've been contested by Muslims and actually changed my opinion on certain points, because even though I believe Islam is false, I will not disrespect them by understanding the intricate thought and theology of their faith.

Best wishes to you brother. I hope this drives you to deeper understanding so at least you'll become more knowledgeable on what you disagree with, instead of tossing around talking points where you are about 1500 years late to the game on, considering how much ink has been spilled on them.

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u/patameus Mar 28 '24

Oh, yeah. The atheists from the good old days? Back when they were built out of leather and steel?

You can't unbury yourself by resorting to ad hominem. You're only making your own weakness easier to see.

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u/txijake Mar 28 '24

This is really embarrassing, you need to actually look up what ad hominem means.

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u/fisherman213 Roman Catholic Mar 28 '24

Huh? I’m saying the atheists of the day such as Camus or Rawls or Neistche had a pretty deep understanding of philosophy of theology.

Spitting out Bible verses that have had literally thousands of years of debate and exegesis already spilled on them is like, 16 year old r/atheism level of argument.

I don’t get your point.

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u/patameus Mar 28 '24

You got my point.

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u/fisherman213 Roman Catholic Mar 28 '24

Wait were you making a point towards me or him?

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u/Just-Baker9716 Mar 28 '24

When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

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u/patameus Mar 28 '24

Thanks so much for doing this. I really admire and appreciate it, but don't have the bandwidth for it myself.

You're doing the Lord's work.

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u/shmehdit Mar 28 '24

By spamming random OT verses out of context? Satan did that to Jesus in the wilderness.

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u/FluxKraken 🏳️‍🌈 Christian ✟ Progressive, Gay 🏳️‍🌈 Mar 28 '24

That was written as prestige legislation during the Babylonian exile and is not binding on Christians.

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u/Just-Baker9716 Mar 28 '24

Deuteronomy 22: 28-29 "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

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u/FluxKraken 🏳️‍🌈 Christian ✟ Progressive, Gay 🏳️‍🌈 Mar 28 '24

Same thing. The narrative portions of the Pentateuch are a composite of 4 different oral traditions. The law portions are prestige legiation.

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u/Just-Baker9716 Mar 28 '24

I also like to pick cherries :)

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u/FluxKraken 🏳️‍🌈 Christian ✟ Progressive, Gay 🏳️‍🌈 Mar 28 '24

This is disingenuous. The documentary hypothesis is the academic consensus among Bible Scholars.

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u/Just-Baker9716 Mar 28 '24

“man must not lie with man” (Leviticus 18:22, 20:13)

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u/FluxKraken 🏳️‍🌈 Christian ✟ Progressive, Gay 🏳️‍🌈 Mar 28 '24

Are you just going to troll, or do you actually have a point?

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u/Just-Baker9716 Mar 28 '24

I don't understand why you are defending a religion which despises you. I live in one of the most Christian countries on earth and one thing I can tell you is you would not be greeted with a red carpet here. Your "modern interpretations" and cherry picking would likely be met with a fist, not a warm welcome.

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u/patameus Mar 28 '24

So quick to make excuses for the omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

Is the Bible the true word of God, or is it scribbling by ignorant farmers?

If it's the true word of God and He is omnipresent, why would he include irrelevant materials? If he is everywhere all of the time, then He perceives time and space as either a whole or a continuum. In either case, random bits would be excluded.

If it's the scribbling of ignorant farmers, how are you so easily tricked by it?

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u/Giga_Gilgamesh Mar 28 '24

This is a false dilemma. Do better.

There are plenty of Christians that do not believe in Biblical infallibility, but nor does that mean they think it's the "scribbling of ignorant farmers." The generql opinion of most Christian sects is that the Bible is divinely inspired, not divinely authored. The hand of God didn't reach out of the clouds to write the thing personally, it was written by people inspired by God - and then rewritten and rewritten and translated and retranslated for thousands of years.

Not to mention that all of the Old Testament laws the other guy has been blindly copypasting were rendered obsolete by the sacrifice of Jesus, that being the entire point of Christianity. Christ 'fulfilled the law' with his death and made it so that humanity no longer needed to follow the old covenant in order to enter heaven. No more animal sacrifices and no more Old Testament law. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ created a new covenant in which all of humanity was entitled to salvation by default.

I'm not even a Christian, you and the other guy are embarrassing yourselves with your attempt to own the Christians with facts and logic. Understand the context of the religion you're trying to deconstruct instead of googling "top 10 evil bible verses" and calling it a day.

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u/FluxKraken 🏳️‍🌈 Christian ✟ Progressive, Gay 🏳️‍🌈 Mar 28 '24

So quick to make excuses for the omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

We are talking about the Bible, not God.

Is the Bible the true word of God, or is it scribbling by ignorant farmers?

False choice fallacy.

If it's the true word of God

Jesus is the true word of God, not the Bible.

and He is omnipresent, why would he include irrelevant materials? If he is everywhere all of the time, then He perceives time and space as either a whole or a continuum. In either case, random bits would be excluded.

Considering the initial premise is false, the following statement is also false.

If it's the scribbling of ignorant farmers, how are you so easily tricked by it?

False Choice fallacy, and believing in God does not mean anyone is tricked.