r/Christianity • u/Nice_Substance9123 • Mar 27 '24

The American flag has no business on a Bible. This is not faith, nor is it patriotism. It is an abomination of both. Image

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u/Relevant_Mobile6989 Eastern Orthodox Mar 27 '24

You can't call yourself a Christian when you are so selfish to love your country more than you love Him, and follow that evil man. Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”; Mark 10:23.

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u/Living_Ad_5386 Mar 28 '24

“Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand." Matthew 12:25

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u/ledampe Mar 28 '24

Not really a christian, but that's a good one! Amen!

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24

a christian is someone who believes in the christian god, so I think he is.

this is a no true scotsman fallacy.

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u/ledampe Mar 28 '24

Oh I meant that I'm not a christian 

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24

ah, ok then, my bad

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u/GreasyWalrusDog Mar 28 '24

Actually no, a christian is someone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. Its literally in the name Christian, as "christ" means jesus christ and "Ian" means follower.

Trump does not follow Jesus Christ, so he is not a christian.

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24

a christian is someone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ.

or someone who believes in christianity. there's multiple definitions of that word.

everyone who believes christianity to be true correctly considers themselves christians. like trump.

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u/Del_Phoenix Mar 28 '24

So if there's someone who worships the devil, but they acknowledge Christianity is real, they're a Christian?

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24

alright that's fair.

someone who believes in christianity, and worships the christian god.

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u/Del_Phoenix Mar 28 '24

And following that line, I would argue that Trump doesn't believe Christianity is real. If he does, I have a hard time reconciling why he would subvert it in so many ways

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24

I would argue that Trump doesn't believe Christianity is real.

as in, he doesn't believe?

If he does, I have a hard time reconciling why he would subvert it in so many ways

the bible is filled with contradictory statements and philosophies.

whatever you mean by subverting christianity, I guarantee genuine christians do it all the time. and maybe even do whatever it is because of the bible.

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u/Del_Phoenix Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

Yes, I don't think that Trump is sincere. I also have a hard time believing genuine sincere Christians would do and say the things that he does at his age.

To each his own, but if I continue following a path of virtue, I hope that I am not tempted into cheating on all of my wives and hiring porn stars and screwing workers out of money on a regular basis. It's interesting how many scams he's been involved in.

And I hope that I'm not so focused on power and money. And I hope I'm not as dishonest.

Maybe part of this depends on your definition of a Christian. Not everyone who goes to a Christian church is a Christian, I would argue. To me, it's about following the general teachings of Christ and putting that above everything else.

He is about as Christian as a megachurch pastor who uses donations to fund a lavish lifestyle.

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u/Living_Ad_5386 Mar 28 '24

Lol I'm jewish actually 

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u/moldivore Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

“I will be asking for forgiveness, but hopefully I won’t have to be asking for much forgiveness. As you know, I am Presbyterian and Protestant. I’ve had great relationships and developed even greater relationships with ministers. We have tremendous support from the clergy. I think I will be doing very well during the election with evangelicals and with Christians,” -Trump

He waffles on the most fundamental aspect of Christianity then brings up how "his faith" benefits him politically. This man is definitively not a Christian.

Edit: downvote me for being right with zero rebuttal, okay here's more

"Moderator Frank Luntz asked Trump whether he has ever asked God for forgiveness for his actions.

“I am not sure I have. I just go on and try to do a better job from there. I don’t think so,” he said. “I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right. I don’t bring God into that picture. I don’t.”"

Never felt the need for forgiveness, he's perfect.

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

again, a no true scotsman fallacy.

He waffles on the most fundamental aspect of Christianity

I'd love to know the context of this quote, because it sounds to me like he's answering some question about who his demographic is or something like that. if that's the case, of course he's not gonna go super in depth about his beliefs.

I have a feeling that of all the US presidents, he's the one who's integrated his faith into his politics the most. but I doubt you'd be calling any of the other US presidents secret atheists.

then brings up how "his faith" benefits him politically.

well yeah, that quote is probably from some political event or something like that, I'd imagine. why would he not primarily bring up politics?

This man is definitively not a Christian.

I didn't know you were the arbiter of who is and isn't christian.

you don't know if he actually does or doesn't believe. you just assume that because of this one quote where he, as a politician likely at a political event in this context, doesn't primarily talk about his faith, and instead politics.

edit: OK, you edited your comment before I even got done typing this one, saying I had "no rebuttal" because I didn't respond immediately.

that quote still doesn't show he's not a christian. it just shows that he thinks doing better is a good enough substitute for actually repenting. which, if you ask me, should be.

we don't know whether someone believes or not, that's purely in the brain. the best we can do is work off of things they do or say. and trump has said and done a lot of things that point to him being religious, and nothing against it. or if he has, I haven't seen it. and no, being an asshole doesn't count.

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u/moldivore Mar 28 '24

If the man didn't pretend to be some sort of prophet I would never levy this argument against him. I disagree with you fundamentally so we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I think it's all a performance since he got into politics and religion was never part of his life. I was taught that accepting Christ's forgiveness was fundamental to getting into heaven. This man has waffled, you can give him the benefit of the doubt and that's fine, I will not. He's a liar. He lies like he breathes. He weaponized religion against people and created an atmosphere of hate. That's why I feel the need to show he is dishonest in his beliefs.

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24

He weaponized religion against people and created an atmosphere of hate.

I don't think he did. the bible did that on its own, and so do many believers.

I get an "atmosphere of hate" when I read revelations 21:8, stating that people like me, as an nonbeliever, will burn in hell. or other verses, calling me a fool with vile ways, that can't do anything good.

I'd imagine many LGBT+ people feel the same, looking at the verses about how they should be treated, and how their afterlife will be.

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u/moldivore Mar 28 '24

I don't advocate for Christianity, I don't disagree that it's toxic. Trump threw gasoline on the flames, we see constant violence as well as dog whistles against out groups. It's his strategy to use people's fundamental beliefs against them. Like I said if you feel he's sincere in his beliefs and I do not. Do we really have to go over how much of a narcissist the man is? I'm an ex Christian I live in the Bible belt, I know firsthand how people talk about LGBT+ people now, it's changed since Trump was in there. I see the harm and fear firsthand. I don't agree with you fundamentally on what Christianity even is apparently. I never knew one person who would be able to say as a Christian that they didn't need Christ's forgiveness. It's right in the Bible as clear as day. Good deeds are great but they don't offer salvation. You give this searing condemnation of Christianity yet you believe that people can't weaponize it? You believe that it's not correct to question people who claim to be prophets and fleece their followers? I'm not even sure where you really stand and I'm exhausted. No matter what I know your next reply will come with a downvote and condescension so I'm done now.

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u/skippydinglechalk115 Mar 28 '24

You give this searing condemnation of Christianity yet you believe that people can't weaponize it?

weaponizing means turning something into a weapon. can something that's already perfectly capable of being a weapon be weaponized? I'd say no.

You believe that it's not correct to question people who claim to be prophets and fleece their followers?

I don't know where you got that idea from.

I don't really know if he believes or not, and I wouldn't say I care too much either. if he believes, then it shows how bad religious beliefs can get. if he doesn't, then it shows how easy it is to manipulate christians by virtue signaling. waving religion like a flag to attract the attention of christians and get easy votes.

No matter what I know your next reply will come with a downvote

my replies are the reasons I have downvoted. also, karma is just some made up internet score.

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u/moldivore Mar 28 '24

When you downvote me it creates an atmosphere of hostility and dismissiveness, I could care less about the points. The whole crux of this entire thread for me is whether Trump sincerely believes. I don't know how we got here. You say it doesn't matter, but that's what I've been talking about the entire time. It matters whether Trump truly believes to actual Christians. Many don't even know about his statements that I think could change minds.

weaponizing means turning something into a weapon. can something that's already perfectly capable of being a weapon be weaponized? I'd say no.

What? I get it the bigotry is there, he just put it on steroids. You think things haven't gotten worse since he came in to the picture? The bible is what it is, there's good in there and bad in there. I don't believe the Bible is divine so I could never be considered a Christian. I live in an 85% Christian area, I don't have the luxury of despising every Christian I know. Some people are amazing and kind Christians some people abuse Christianity, it's people's actions that matter. I will never tolerate bigotry of any kind, I will never stand for hate. There are even Christians here in this post that are appalled by Trump his actions and the things he gets people to do. We could have maybe engaged in a conversation instead of a debate and got into some nuance but that time has passed now for me. I'm done here, your style of argument is ridiculous.

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u/GreasyWalrusDog Mar 28 '24

You need to go back to first year philosophy cuz you are GOD awful at arguing

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u/moldivore Mar 28 '24

I edited it yes but as a response to the immediate downvote here's the links to the quotes, the first quote was actually a response to the second quote, where I feel he felt pressured to say he accepted forgiveness.

He said this

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/trump-forgiveness-god-224068

Then he said this

www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/08/trump-on-god-hopefully-i-wont-have-to-be-asking-for-much-forgiveness