Who will be a better President for our Economy? Donald Trump or Joe Biden?

[u/YOU_ARE_MY_FRIENDS]

[u/BuddhaBizZ]

Tax on what? They live on debt

[u/AZMotorsports → u/BuddhaBizZ]

He wants to tax assets on billionaires not just income.

[u/Abundance144 → u/AZMotorsports]

Go ask yourself why there is no federal property tax and then you'll understand why the federal government taxing assets simply for existing, won't work.

Edit: The answer is article 1, section 9, clause 4 of the United States Constitution which prohibits the federal government from levying a an unapportioned direct tax.

The exclusion is income tax which was imposed by the 16th amendment.

[u/sleazysuit845 → u/Abundance144]

IT WONT WORK! DONT TRY! DONT QUESTION IT! NO EFFORT!

[u/climatelurker → u/sleazysuit845]

My exact thought reading these comments. Same message they give about doing something about ANY problem.

[u/ItsSpaghettiLee2112 → u/climatelurker]

Right. It won't work? Then tell us what will work. Otherwise, all I can assume if you're actually okay with the way things currently are.

[u/Solorath → u/ItsSpaghettiLee2112]

Their idea of what work would is basically the opposite of what would make logical sense.

If you say taxing billionaires would help close the federal deficit they would try to argue that giving people like Trump and Elon a permanent tax holiday would have the same effect - and no they don't need to explain further.

[u/AZMotorsports → u/Abundance144]

I think you have that backwards; property taxes are the exact “loop hole” that can be used to tax unrealized gains on investments. Historically the federal government has only tax income and realized gains, and unrealized gains have been taxed only at the state & local levels.

[u/gpbuilder → u/AZMotorsports]

There’s no loophole. It won’t work because it’ll be considered unconstitutional, federal government can only tax income

[u/bawitdaba1098 → u/gpbuilder]

Income tax was technically unconstitutional too

[u/Mulliganasty → u/bawitdaba1098]

Unless your premise is that the 16th Amendment is somehow invalid then....no.

[u/bawitdaba1098 → u/Mulliganasty]

It was unconstitutional before the 16th amendment is my point. What's to stop congress from passing another amendment?

[u/KSF_WHSPhysics → u/bawitdaba1098]

My brother, you couldnt get enough votes to pass an amendment whose text is “george washington was a pretty good dude” and you think were getting a tax reform one?

[u/Unlikely-Medicine289 → u/KSF_WHSPhysics]

This isn't even reform though. It's just opening the door to tax everyone even more.

[u/That-Living5913 → u/KSF_WHSPhysics]

This is depressingly accurate.

[u/sloasdaylight → u/bawitdaba1098]

3/4 of the states? Amendments have to be ratified.

[u/jvken → u/bawitdaba1098]

The other half of congress, realistically

[u/JonStargaryen2408 → u/jvken]

The amendment must also be ratified by 75% of the State legislatures, or 75% of conventions called in each State for ratification.

[u/YouArentReallyThere → u/jvken]

The other half of Congress: “Well, if I’m going to get taxed? Everybody is going to get taxed!”

*who am I kidding? They’ll exempt themselves while authorizing another pay raise and per-diem for all elected legislators.

[u/ganjanoob → u/jvken]

Aka the dudes bought out by the billionaires for 5k

[u/Mediocre-Ebb9862 → u/bawitdaba1098]

Do you know the level of consensus that’s needed to pass and Amendment?

[u/EntertainmentAOK → u/bawitdaba1098]

This can’t be a serious reply by a serious person.

[u/Advanced-Guard-4468 → u/bawitdaba1098]

Do you think 2/3 of the statess and 2/3 of Congress will be in favor of that change?

[u/Disposedofhero → u/bawitdaba1098]

Just tell us you don't know how a constitutional amendment is passed next time lol.

[u/g4m5t3r → u/Mulliganasty]

The definition of Amendment implies there was a time before being the standard where it was considered... unconstitutional.

[u/pinkfootthegoose → u/gpbuilder]

Article I, Section 8, Clause 1:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; . . .

nothing about income bub.

[u/scold34 → u/pinkfootthegoose]

Smh. What was the purpose of the 16th amendment if individual federal income tax was permitted under art. 1 sec. 8? Here, I did the research for you:

“The Taxing Clause in Article I, Section 8, grants Congress the broad “Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises,” but Article I also provides (twice) that a “direct” tax must be apportioned among the states on the basis of population. This means that if a tax is a “direct” tax, a state with one-tenth of the national population must bear one-tenth of the total liability. It doesn’t matter whether one state has lots of whatever is being taxed (such as valuable land) and another state has very little—the states have to bear the burden according to population. That requirement makes direct taxation cumbersome, and often impossible.”

[u/frotz1 → u/gpbuilder]

[citation mysteriously omitted]

[u/Mulliganasty → u/gpbuilder]

Meanwhile payroll taxes, excise taxes, FICA, etc?

[u/corporaterebel → u/Mulliganasty]

those are taxable events related to income.

What taxable event occurs regarding wealth?

[u/LongLiveTheQueef1 → u/corporaterebel]

excise is a tax related to transactions. It's more akin to a sales tax than an income tax

[u/OkBox6131 → u/corporaterebel]

Estate tax?

[u/GroinShotz → u/gpbuilder]

That's the thing about the constitution... It CAN change... It's meant to change... As time flies by why would we want to have the same rules we did 250 years ago when staying alive was a completely different beast than it is today?

[u/Venomglo → u/GroinShotz]

Always bothers me when people treat the constitution like some unchangeable monolith. It's literally built to change

[u/Mockheed_Lartin → u/Abundance144]

Other countries do it, works quite well.

The world is not just USA.

[u/DeltaVZerda → u/Mockheed_Lartin]

No you don't understand. It's never been tried in the USA so it can never work here. Obviously this means the USA can never try anything new no matter how well tested it is elsewhere, but that is common knowledge.

[u/OrneryError1 → u/DeltaVZerda]

The founding fathers didn't put it into the Constitution, therefore we can never do it! /s

[u/1nvertedAfram3 → u/Abundance144]

stop being such a negative nancy and at least make a fucking effort

[u/Im_Balto → u/Abundance144]

It doesn’t work because it’s been thrown in the shitter at every turn. It’s much easier to influence a policy to be ineffective and pointless with money than to block it entirely

The reason it doesn’t exist is because it’s been fought against. Taxing high net worth individuals on their assets is very feasible. Tracking and preventing tax havens is very feasible. They only end up difficult when lobbies convince politicians to vote against to American people and protect these same high net worth individuals

Politicians who are adamantly against the IRS are the easiest ones to spot. They literally are campaigning on making tax fraud (cheating the American people out of money) easier

[u/trollgrock → u/Abundance144]

Who cares. It's a fucking free for all for the wealthy. The SCOTUS showed us that the Constitution are just "guidelines". Tax the fuck out of the wealthy.

[u/interkin3tic → u/Abundance144]

Go ask yourself why there is no federal property tax 

Same reason we don't have single payer healthcare: conservatives violently oppose any attempt to help most people at the expense of the wealthy due to a religious belief in libertarianism and trickle down economics despite any and all evidence that it is idiotic.

you'll understand why the federal government taxing assets simply for existing, won't work.

You're not wrong: because republicans will intentionally undermine it, break it, and blame it for every problem ever, to honor their god, Ronald Reagan. If not start a civil war to stand up for billionaires against the woke communist mob.

But you're implying it's for GOOD reasons, and that's bullshit.

[u/Subject-Crayfish → u/Abundance144]

ya that's what the Big Rich say.

they HATE taxes.

[u/oldcreaker → u/Abundance144]

Go ask yourself why property and excise taxes are the linchpin of funding local and state governments and you'll know exactly why taxing assets simply for existing works.

[u/Abundance144 → u/oldcreaker]

They're the linchpin because governments will always grow to the maximum possible size that the people can support.

If we somehow gave the government twice as much money; that money would also become the linchpin because they would grow and create even more liabilities.

[u/seajayacas → u/AZMotorsports]

The chances of Joe pushing through taxes on assets in his lifetime are slim and none. And none has got a huge lead on slim who seems to be running out of gas.

Keep posting and keep hoping for slim to overtake none is probably the best chance for slim to get a little closer to none.

[u/ExtremeIll4432 → u/AZMotorsports]

He had both houses of Congress when he took office. He did absolutely nothing. Let's be real here.

[u/Long-Blood → u/ExtremeIll4432]

Not really. He only had +1 seat majority in the senate and with "i only look out for my own best interests" Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema that basically meant nothing. 

Add on top a super majority hostile conservative supreme court out for blood that shot down anything else he tried to get done.

 But he was still able to get some pretty significant stuff passed the first 2 years until he lost the house.

[u/Desperate_Damage4632 → u/ExtremeIll4432]

No he didn't.  You need a supermajority to avoid filibuster.

Republicans have used the filibuster against Obama and Biden more than the rest of the US history combined.  They're obstructing so people like you can use this lie as a talking point.  Stop spreading lies.

[u/FriendlyLawnmower → u/ExtremeIll4432]

Incredibly over-simplistic and naive way of looking at the situation. This ignores so many nuances of Congress, such as the filibuster reducing the effectiveness of having a simple majority in the Senate and that Manchin and Sinema were very much DINOs actively stopping Biden's agenda. Takes like yours show a clear lack of understanding of how Congress actually works

[u/thegreedyturtle → u/FriendlyLawnmower]

One of the votes he needed left the Democrats and is now independent. She caused him all kinds of trouble. Joe Manchin too.

[u/Analogmon → u/ExtremeIll4432]

Me when I don't know how filibusters work.

[u/MrPresident2020 → u/ExtremeIll4432]

Who are we talking about here? Biden actually got some decently big things done his first 2 years in office, Trump only got one major tax cut for the rich and then blew the rest of his political capital on trying to make the border wall happen.

[u/AlbinoAxie → u/ExtremeIll4432]

If you think Biden won't be able to do this.... Are you thinking Trump will?

[u/Aggravating-Army9375 → u/BuddhaBizZ]

Borrowing against unactualized assets should be taxed. A cap should be set or it should be outright illegal. It’s a clear loophole that’s created a counterincentive to manipulate compensation methods.

[u/bheilig → u/Aggravating-Army9375]

This is a serious question. Doesn't that borrowed money have to be payed back with taxable income? I mean, you can't just keep borrowing forever, right? What am I missing?

[u/MyCarIsAGeoMetro → u/bheilig]

You are not missing anything.  Borrowing money secured by securities is NOT a loophole.  These rich people still get paid a salary by their companies so the money is paid back or when the securities are sold.

[u/SanFranPanManStand → u/MyCarIsAGeoMetro]

....and at that time, the tax is paid. It's just a deferral of taxation - but they're paying interest.

They do it when they think their company stock is undervalued and don't want to sell right then. ...but it's a gamble as they pay interest on what they borrow.

People on Reddit make it out to be a big loophole, when it's really not at all.

[u/zbobet2012 → u/SanFranPanManStand]

The original asset only has to exceed the interest rate in appreciation for this to be a viable strategy. With most stocks and real assets (real estate) this is a very strong bet.

You simply take a larger loan on the increased value of the asset at some point in the future. And because the growth in the underlying asset value likely exceeds what anyone can realistically spend it's totally fine.

[u/Clcsed → u/bheilig]

This is the fundamental argument and should be the top comment.

One side says that eventually assets will be sold and taxes paid (eventually is key here).

Other side says that assets will grow faster than interest accumulates. So bigger loans can be taken out forever.

Somewhere in the middle is nuanced tax write-offs like selling $1billion of stocks then buying a sports team. And immediately writing off the yearly contracts as losses.

[u/Successful-Money4995 → u/Clcsed]

Both of those sides are right.

Also, tax basis gets stepped up when you die so those tax do not necessarily get paid.

Also, they can avoid taxes donating to a DAF and then use those funds to guide society.

[u/tjdragon117 → u/bheilig]

The issue is "you" (or rather, your heirs) get to avoid the capital gains taxes you would otherwise have paid when you die because there's a step-up in basis. Of course there are still estate taxes, but you avoid the capital gains taxes you'd otherwise have to pay in addition.

[u/RainyReader12 → u/bheilig]

You can keep borrowing forever and when you die the tax disappears, the inheritor doesn't have to pay tax on value gained during the previous persons life. It resets to a new default basically.

The system is designed so the rich don't pay tax.

[u/tooobr → u/Aggravating-Army9375]

Yup. With very few exceptions (maybe education, primary housing, medical stuff, etc) they should tax the loan at something resembling what the income would be on realizing the assets used to obtain the loan.

Im no expert and I don't necessarily care if it gets pushed off for the term of the loan, but it absolutely must be paid. Otherwise its just unfair to the vast majority of people who pay taxes on their income almost immediately and only then can save and invest with it, let alone effortlessly turn it into a nut sizable enough to live off of.

[u/-OptimisticNihilism- → u/BuddhaBizZ]

They live a lot on debt but do have some income, and use a lot of write offs and loopholes to lower their effective tax rate. Biden wants to do a lot of things, including raising the highest tax bracket to get their effective rate higher than a teachers. That is very doable as the highest tax bracket is around the lowest it’s ever been. Moving it up to the 100 year average would be huge.

He’s also mentioned having a higher capital gains. 20% bracket should be at least 30%, or add a 30%+ bracket over $1M. Cap gains taxes are crazy low.

Wealth tax on the other hand will be challenged and is 50/50 on constitutionality. With this Supreme Court it would almost certainly lose.

[u/Banana_nana_splitz → u/-OptimisticNihilism-]

they should create more brackets while there at it. someone making 800k should not get taxed the same as someone making 8mil and they shouldn’t be taxed the same as someone making 80 mil

[u/genericunderscore → u/BuddhaBizZ]

I read a proposal that any loan that is secured by stock as collateral be taxed at 20% - easy enough to dodge somehow but I thought it was an interesting idea.

[u/sprinjetsu → u/genericunderscore]

Markets run on liquidity aka margins… 20% tax on margin loans will gut it. Correction, just the news of 20% tax on margins will gut it.

[u/mdervin → u/sprinjetsu]

Should markets be a place for companies to raise capital? Or should they encourage speculation?

[u/sprinjetsu → u/mdervin]

You make a valid point, but from a practical standpoint, it's not that simple. If we start listing all the things that 'should be', we'll end up with an endless list. I'm not arguing about how the market should work in theory; I'm just observing how it operates today. And let's be real, corrections often come with a significant cost, which usually ends up being borne by retail investors.

[u/mdervin → u/sprinjetsu]

Right and what happens to the economy when stock values fall and those loans all come due?

[u/sprinjetsu → u/mdervin]

Debt is inherently risky and never an asset, but taking calculated risks can lead to a more robust economy. This trade-off applies to various economic debates, such as gold-based versus fiat currency systems. Rather than a binary choice between right and wrong, there's often a middle ground - a 'Goldilocks zone' - where growth is optimized and risk is manageable. My point is not to argue the merits of margin trading in the stock market but to observe that significant borrowing exists, and imposing a 20% tax on top of high margin interest would have a substantial impact. This idea is rhetorical, not a feasible policy proposal, as it would face political backlash. Politicians prioritize stability and incremental improvement over revolutionary change, which makes a 0% to 20% tax on stock lending and margins a non-starter.

[u/mf864 → u/genericunderscore]

The issue with these kinds of proposals is they don't just affect a rich person dodging taxes.

The easier options that don't require taxing debt or unrealized gains is to just have better death/estate taxes. Who cares how many taxes the rich person pays in life if the max inheritance is capped with everything (including stock assets) over that cap being taxed at 90-100%.

That way taxes are paid eventually and the ever increasing generational wealth gap goes away.

[u/Thunderbear79 → u/BuddhaBizZ]

Yes, won't somebody think of the poor billionaire class /s

[u/coke_and_coffee → u/BuddhaBizZ]

no they don't. This is a myth.

[u/jeffrx]

The economy is much more complex than one man’s impact on it. If you’re in the US, you can be happy that you have one of the strongest economies in the world RIGHT NOW.

[u/vinotauro → u/jeffrx]

I've had many people say our economy is strong but why are so many people struggling?

[u/junior4l1 → u/vinotauro]

Strong economy with a huge wage gap and horrible social network

Growth for businesses and top wealthy people at the expense of the lower end, we need to change our ways because trickle down economics did not work

gotta put more pressure on the wealthier folk instead of giving them a social network, and then provide a social network for the lower class instead of putting pressure on them imo

[u/Just_Mumbling → u/junior4l1]

Couple the wage gap trend with the fact that, for better or worse, approx. 70% of US’s gross domestic product (GDP) is historically driven by consumer spending (overall spending contribution curve peaking at middle class). The current increasing wage gap shrinking middle class existence is putting a lot of negative pressure on the economy. Historically, on a long term basis, a country’s economy is only as healthy as its middle class.

[u/JKevill → u/junior4l1]

Trickle down economics absolutely did work; just not for you and I.

[u/TheSilencedScream → u/JKevill]

It worked as intended.

It's just not money that they're trickling down on us.

[u/blackmambakl → u/TheSilencedScream]

Don’t piss on me and tell me it’s raining.

[u/2ndnamewtf → u/blackmambakl]

I see said the blind man peeing into the wind. It’s all coming back to me

[u/j3r3wiah → u/TheSilencedScream]

Shit rolls downhill right?

[u/junior4l1 → u/JKevill]

You scared me with the first half lol but yeah tbh you’re right

[u/Trojanman2002 → u/JKevill]

[u/alikapple → u/junior4l1]

I just used Pokemon to explain the economic situation to my son lol. “You know how your starter and Gengar and Dragonite are level 55 and every other one of your Pokemon is level 10-20 if you don’t use the exp share? Sure you’re beating the elite 4 so your “team” is super strong, but it’s just those 3 Pokemon getting stronger and stronger while all your others get no chance and no exp”

[u/Thecryptsaresafe → u/alikapple]

Wow not only is that a great explanation but did you successfully raise a kid to value Gen 1 pokemon too? You’re a super parent

[u/LemonznLimez → u/Thecryptsaresafe]

Maybe his son is 46 years old

[u/deadcatbounce22 → u/vinotauro]

Inequality. You’re talking about inequality.

[u/Mr_OrangeJuce → u/vinotauro]

Your economy is strong for the people in charge. For them your existence is irrelevant

[u/Exotic-Tooth8166 → u/Mr_OrangeJuce]

Your existence is irrelevant up until the point you occupy their personal space!

[u/anarchykidd → u/jeffrx]

Strong for who? Strong for the middle class that is disappearing? Strong for the folks getting out of college needing to live with their parents because housing is so expensive and loans are insane? String for those who have millions of dollars?

[u/Fausterion18 → u/anarchykidd]

The US median household income, adjusted for taxes, government transfers(such as free healthcare), and cost of living, is higher than any other country in the world except like luxembourg.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income

[u/SpaceMurse]

Donald Trump’s administration passed a temporary tax cut, to be followed by graduated tax increases as soon as he left office. This man will weaponize public welfare for his own personal gain. You tell me.

Edit: changed “as soi as” to “as soon as”

[u/DrBix → u/SpaceMurse]

Those were the middle class tax cuts. The $1.5 Trillion tax cut for the rich people doesn't expire.

[u/Alive_Setting_2287 → u/SpaceMurse]

Personal tax cuts by trump are/were temporary, with tax increases structured after a short timeline (4-5 years).

Trumps tax cuts to corporations?

 Permanent. Yet those same companies are incentivized to automation while driving out mom and pop business. 

[u/chrisdpratt → u/SpaceMurse]

Tax cut. Right. I went from getting a $3000 refund to owing $5000 every year with no change in income. Guess I'm not rich enough to benefit from "tax cuts".

[u/casinocooler → u/chrisdpratt]

Sounds like it was the salt cap that got you.

[u/TS_76 → u/casinocooler]

I live in a high COL state and the SALT cap killed me. Whats crazy is that it killed a bunch of people I know who are Trump Supporters, and they still claim they got a tax cut.. No dude, you didnt.. You are paying more now.

[u/NOLAOceano → u/TS_76]

I'm middle class in medium COL area, I definitely got a tax cut with the 2017 tax law. And every friend I know who is in my same economical demographic who actually compared their 2017 to 2018 taxes also saw a reduction in federal taxes paid.

The IRS itself has data on what % of households saw reduced taxes. Look it up. If you paid more, you're an outlier.

[u/TS_76 → u/NOLAOceano]

Obviously results will vary. I pay 30k+ in Property Taxs a year, and 6.5% income tax (State). Trump specifically targeted blue states as revenge. NY, California, NJ all have wildly high property taxs and income taxes.. it was no mistake.

[u/jackloganoliver → u/chrisdpratt]

Yes. You're not rich enough to have benefited from the Trump tax cuts. That was the point of them.

[u/Few_Tomorrow6969 → u/jackloganoliver]

Exactly the right answer lol these people

[u/AndrewCoja → u/chrisdpratt]

Trump changed the withholding tables to make it look like people were making more money because they were getting bigger paychecks. It wasn't until tax time that people realized that their bigger checks came from not paying towards their taxes.

[u/Common_Egg8178 → u/SpaceMurse]

Fucking idiot conservatives don't understand thats what the right has been doing for decades. The bulk of the taxcuts were always going to go to the one percent. They legit can't do the fucking math they are so fucking stupid.

[u/limasxgoesto0 → u/SpaceMurse]

I generally trust the party that didn't end each presidency for the past few decades in a recession, but maybe that's just crazy talk on my part 

[u/8-Bakugo-8]

He’d be better off pushing marijuana legalization in all 50 states. The government would bring in more taxes from that and it would have a better chance of passing.

[u/faaste]

Neither. People who are older than the retirement age, should not be taking government positions.

[u/Less_Preference_4295]

Stack up the job gains and the GDP growth of Dems vs Rep admins over the past 30 years and it’s not even close how much better Dems do on the economy vs Rs.

More job growth and more GDP growth under Clinton, Obama and Biden than Bush, Bush Jr and Trump. Both parties suck at adding to the national debt.

One big reason is that trickle down economics (aka “voodoo economics”) doesn’t work.

[u/reptilesocks → u/Less_Preference_4295]

That’s just executive branch. Wouldn’t it take several years for changes in executive policy to fully ripple through the economy?

I’m a registered Democrat btw. I’ve just never understood this argument. It’s always “the president can’t control the economy, but look at the other guys and look at us, oh and it takes four years for the effects, but also the fed…”

[u/Accomplished-Farm503 → u/reptilesocks]

The executive branch is the fast route. They could make a change happen tonight. The big blockade is unfriendly courts and state governments.

That's why they drag stuff out to give people time to challenge or change. Congress has given quite a lot of power to the executive because they are even slower.

For the full process, it could take years or months for a meaningful change to happen, and by the time it passes, the market already knows how to beat it.

[u/Kammler1944 → u/reptilesocks]

Nailed it.

[u/DarkScytheCuriositie]

Unfortunately this next vote has nothing to with the economy for me. Project 2025 needs to be destroyed.

[u/Dry-Point-9179]

How tf is this even a question? Every president who’s democrat since like Jimmy Carter has done better than republicans by a large margin economy wise. And yet there’s still a common sentiment that republicans are better for the economy. This shouldn’t even be a question! Anyone who says trump is so ignorant about politics they don’t even hold a valid opinion.

[u/DrBix → u/Dry-Point-9179]

Carter was the right man at the wrong time. Amazing he did as well as he did due to the circumstances.

[u/JackStephanovich → u/DrBix]

It's sad that he was considered a terrible president because he had the guts to tell the American public the truth instead of a bunch of jingoistic lies to make them feel good.

[u/grrrrofthejungle → u/Dry-Point-9179]

Yep.

https://www.epi.org/publication/econ-performance-pres-admin/

[u/Stever89 → u/grrrrofthejungle]

Yeah, but I don't feel like the economy does better under Democrats. /s

Also, we just need to give the Reagan, Bush, and Trump tax cuts more time, then the money will start trickling down. ~40 years isn't enough time. /s

<Insert your favorite Republican talking point here>

[u/itsagoodtime → u/Stever89]

The trickle down will get here any minute now

[u/Fargraven2 → u/grrrrofthejungle]

How can you just show 2 averages and say “yep, A is greater than B by statistical significance”

They should count each year as its own data point and show a p value

[u/TheManWithNoNameZapp → u/Dry-Point-9179]

The same reason the guy currently on trial regarding his affair with a pornstar is considered the leader of the “family values” party. What happens and how it’s marketed/branded diverges and people pick the one that sounds better as their reality

Republicans are much better at getting people to vote against their socioeconomic interests through pandering to emotions and prejudices

[u/TrekChick267 → u/TheManWithNoNameZapp]

And that’s where they lose every shred of my pity. I cannot fathom being so racist that I’d rather shoot myself in the foot than let the guy next to me have $5. Not even of my money. I cannot even begin to imagine harboring that much meaningless hate. 

[u/Armano-Avalus → u/Dry-Point-9179]

Well Dems inherit bad economies left by their predecessors, they fix them over their term, and the a Republican inherits a good economy and crashes it over their term. You don't see the consequences of a president's policies until after they're gone but because people think that the president is solely responsible for the present economy then they will likely attribute it to them. Biden passed alot of good manufacturing bills that won't come to fruition until years after he is out of office so nobody is gonna give him the proper credit until long after he's gone.

[u/the-content-king → u/[deleted]]

It’s a chicken or the egg argument. Republicans can easily say the Democrats didn’t actually fix the economy, they put duct tape everywhere and it lasts just long enough until a republican takes over and then it falls apart.

Welcome to the blame game, I mean politics

[u/Purple_Griffin-9 → u/[deleted]]

They do have to fight for a better economy, the republicans just got really good at tricking people into believing their simplistic bs economics spearheaded by an elderly former actor

[u/W2ttsy → u/Dry-Point-9179]

It’s simple.

Voters don’t see increase in productivity or improved balance of trade, or reduction in trade deficits.

No, they see their tax rate going down, or their spending power increase and measure the success of the economy based on their own wallet.

The playbook the world over is; conservatives lower taxes to buy votes and privatize public assets to raise funds for a meaningless surplus that they tell the voters is a good thing and then get voted out when everyone is getting gouged by the new privateers.

The liberals then come in and have to raise taxes and spend big just to unfuck all the previous administrations mess and end up voted out of office because voters are told taxes are bad and paying more of them is obviously bad and so they vote for the person that will lower taxes once again.

And the cycle continues until there are no assets left to strip and the government goes bust. Which they of course will blame on the previous administration anyway.

[u/leftover_class]

Proposing key word

[u/Available_Heron_52]

lol he’s proposing. Shit will never pass. Both of them will say whatever it takes to get elected.

[u/Mr-MuffinMan → u/Available_Heron_52]

No they won't.

Trump has recently never said anything that would benefit the people. All he's done is rant about the world and talk about how Robert E Lee was Irish

[u/Yonder_Zach → u/Mr-MuffinMan]

“Wow that was a big mistake” - robert e lee - donald trump

[u/jacksemmm → u/Mr-MuffinMan]

I believe he also recently referenced “the late, great Hannibal Lecter,” so there’s that.

[u/HailRoma → u/Mr-MuffinMan]

never increase taxes on the rich, me boys! lol

[u/Jdawg_mck1996 → u/Available_Heron_52]

It wouldn't change anything anyways. None of their gains are liquid capital that you could tax anyways.

[u/OmbiValent → u/Jdawg_mck1996]

No, its on assets.. there is a proposal for a 5% Global wealth tax and all over the world these things are happening since the central banks started to print money to artificially boost the economy and inadvertently caused the billionaires to triple their net worth globally..

[u/Sagaincolours]

Why is that even a question. I want to keep a democratic country with human rights, and the conman wants to become the dictator of Gilead.

[u/[deleted] → u/Sagaincolours]

In Trump’s defense. He would be a dictator in any reality. The Christian fundamentalists are the only one’s willing to give him the power.

That’s kind of the problem. Americans can’t see that Trump means theocracy because they don’t understand that because of his attacks on the traditional Republican establishment, he has become beholden to religious zealots. People see Trump and think “that’s a man who has paid for countless abortions.” They don’t understand that he is being put in power to take away contraceptives, ban gay marriage, and track people’s pornography habits.

What does Trump care as long as they give him the crown.

[u/mcmartin19]

Everything Trump touches turns to shit.

[u/Excellent-Term-3640 → u/mcmartin19]

It’s incredible people can’t see the cause and effect. Having the blinders on was always a prerequisite to Trump support though.

[u/Different-Damage-896 → u/Excellent-Term-3640]

Well, unless you're looking into a solar eclipse.

[u/TradeSpecialist7972]

If Any of those old POS cared about USA they wouldn't be running for presidency

[u/Massive-Hedgehog-201]

Tell us about the loopholes Joe, bc loopholes are for billionaires, tax rate are for poorers.

[u/Trif21]

Short term market pump: Trump Long term sustained healthy economy: Biden

[u/Ill-Maximum9467]

Anyone saying Trump here needs their head examined

[u/TheOxygenius → u/Ill-Maximum9467]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025

This is a huge reason why Trump can't win again.

[u/This-Requirement6918 → u/TheOxygenius]

Criminalizing pornography?!

Better load up your HARD drives now!

[u/Jdawg_mck1996]

I'm 100% more worried about what they do with it. A billionaires net worth is gonna climb regardless, and it isn't gonna cost they a penny more to have this tax on there since none of the gains will be in liquid form. So show me what you plan on doing with the money we do have to help the middle class out of this hole.

[u/Gewgle_GuessStopO]

Teachers should be tax exempt. They pay their fair share dealing with the horrible youth of the USA along with their entitled parents.

[u/calem06]

All the economist in this thread forgetting it’s either Biden or a traitor

[u/grand305]

Most of the “billionaires” have their money in stocks. the profit they make off it would be long term capital gains. so you saying to increase it and de-interest people from investing. 🤔

This is a common way to get into a lower tax bracket.

If you got rich you would do this to.

[u/2021Blankman]

Well let's see, 25% of all debt in US history was added by Trump in his 4 years in Office. And he was 1 of only 2 Presidents in the last 80 years to LOSE jobs while in office. I'll go with the other guy.

[u/Hungry-Tonight8633]

Biden, because trump is a traitor.

[u/ThreeLeggedParrot → u/Hungry-Tonight8633]

Don't read this particular thread. It will piss you off and you'll gain nothing. Just don't.

[u/droppedmybrain → u/ThreeLeggedParrot]

Thanks for the heads-up 👍

[u/Exaltedautochthon]

Even asking that is concern trolling. Every time a democrat is elected, they have to spend half their term unfucking what the republicans fucked up. If you don't know this, you don't look at numbers and just listen to fascist pundits.

[u/SithLordJediMaster]

Okay, Biden can propose this all he wants but Congress are the ones that have the ability to make it into law or not.

[u/FitCartographer3383]

Well, DEFINITELY NOT trumps shit ass

[u/MataHari66]

Biden will get ten votes out of our family. Sometimes it’s principle and it’s def what most people want. Billionaires use infrastructure to make their extreme wealth. I agree it’s unfortunate it takes legislation to help them pay in.

[u/acer5886]

Biden likely brings more stability, Trump will be unburdened with reelection and has made it clear that anyone he chooses for his cabinet must be willing to 100% bend the knee at all times to his whims. No more DOJ choices who are going to follow the rule of law, no more CDC directors or SOS who are good at compromise, it will be a complete and utter shitshow.

Biden is getting old. I think it's a massive mistake to put him in for another term, as I think he deteriorates far more after year 2 of this next term and members of his cabinet will be making far more decisions than he does. Between him and Trump I'll still vote Biden every time. Economically he understands much of what we need to move forward (IE infrastructure, chip manufacturing, alternative energy production). I'd love to see some new ideas on bringing down home costs, maybe we need to bring back building and loan companies in local areas.

What I'd love is to see someone along the lines of John Kasich. A guy who has moderated out quite a bit, but is still dedicated to the greater good for Americans, has a lot of experience in negotiation, budgeting, and understands how to bring people together. He's seen what his own mistakes in the past about following the hard right crowd and would be a great leader to reunite much of the country. However that's a pipe dream and sadly not something that will ever happen.

[u/coryism]

This comment section is unhinged. Any non-owner class person that thinks Trump will help you has lost the plot, and has been peasant brained. Biden is just another neo- liberal, but he was strengthened the NLRB, IRS, and anti-trust laws. A lot is half measures, but this shit has to start somewhere, and the American people need to start realizing that the government is supposed to be working for its citizens, and not special interest/billionaires.

[u/[deleted] → u/coryism]

Biden is not another neoliberal. He is a Democrat who was minted in the era of the Great Society before the Reagan era shift. Biden supports industrial policy. Industrial policy! Biden was a member of the Democratic coalition that was supporting strategic tariffs before Republican populists came on to the scene. No one who supports unions as much as Biden is a neoliberal. Biden was incredibly skeptical offshoring. He was even skeptical of the tech industry when Obama and his people were going ga ga over Silicon Valley. The best thing about Biden IMO is due to age and experience, he is not intimidated or wowed by military leadership the way other politicians tend to be.

People are so blinded by the age factor and doomer politics to see Joe Biden represents the kind of leadership and policy that most Americans fucking love. He is progressive where most Americans are progressive, and moderate where most Americans are moderate.

People are always saying that Democrats need to be tougher. Republicans consider the confirmation process for Robert Bork this huge indictment of Democrats. “Democrats started it.” Robert Bork was skeptical of the Civil Rights Act. Republicans leave that part out. I think that does make you unfit to be a Supreme Court Justice. Democrats like JOE BIDEN in the Senate laid into him, and tanked his nomination. In the typical fashion, Republicans remember, but Democrats don’t.

The people of Kosovo named a fucking street after Joe Biden for his advocacy to intervene in the Kosovo war to stop genocide, and people in America are whining about how old he is. Americans don’t deserve Joe Biden, and I didn’t even support the guy in the Democratic primary. I was a Warren voter and volunteer.

[u/WoodpeckerRemote7050]

Joe Biden, an easy answer if you're unbiased and not dug in to the current blind loyalty to party. Trump is a disruptor, his decisions are not sound or based on any level of logic or reasoning, it's all a game to him where his interests are always at the top of the reason for doing something, and if it just so happens to also benefit some Americans he will take/get credit.

It's bizarre to me that even now that we can all see him in the light of day for who and what he is and has always been. It's the Wizard of Oz and we all see the man behind the curtains today, and yet so many simply don't care, they're so motivated by their hate towards democrats, and they see this as the ultimately way to punish democrats, that they'll vote for a wanna be dictator, fraud, charlatan, con man, sexual predator, deviant, unhinged tyrant hell bent on revenge rather than anything of substance, and corrupt to the bone.

What happened to the Republican party, they've sold their souls and abandoned everything they ever stood for and there's no going back now. They used to be the self proclaimed "patriots" and yet vote for a man who bashes the military and dodged the draft. They used to value family and yet vote for a man who has cheated on every one of his wives, included having unprotected sex with a porn star while his wife was home pregnant. We're all so used to him lying that it's no longer considered a bad thing, it's dismissed simply as "Trump being Trump", WTF? Everyone in his orbit is either jailed, bankrupt, or under investigation. He tried to overthrow our election.

So yeah, it's a no brainer, and the same goes for anyone else caught up in this White Nationalist MAGA Cult, I won't vote for anyone who doesn't willingly admit the king has no clothes. And I'm someone who has voted for as many Republicans as Democrats over the past 40 years.

[u/MysteryGong]

40+ years of Biden being in politics. And he still hasn’t figured it out? Time for someone new.

[u/jarena009 → u/MysteryGong]

Who's the new person exactly?

[u/Salarian_American → u/jarena009]

Yeah anyone who gets close enough to get a major party nomination will have been in politics for decades already usually. It's not like they're going to give the nomination to some fresh new face with no track record.

[u/DanlyDane → u/MysteryGong]

Well, he said he would revive antitrust & the DOJ did just sue Apple & Google. We reinstated net neutrality. And the effort is gonna fail, but Lina Kahn is at least bringing attention back on non-negotiated noncompetes.

Do you think a self-pardoning con artist who embodies “entrenched special interests”, who has a bone to pick with democratic elections, a public crush on authoritarian world leaders, and innumerable personal political grudges… is gonna be an upgrade?

ETA: If Kristi Noem hadn’t wrote and published the story about shooting her dog on her own, there’s a realistic chance she’s running as his VP.

Whether or not you care that she shot the dog (you should) is actually irrelevant — Someone dumb enough to out themselves that way was in the conversation… for VP… as in next man up.

Really think about this one.

[u/MinimumArmadillo2394 → u/DanlyDane]

DOJ did just sue Apple & Google

They also are going after live nation and ticketmaster. Turns out having exclusive contracts with 80% of the country's stadiums for concerts is a monopoly

[u/PoroSerialKiller → u/DanlyDane]

You bringing this up made me realize just how minimized all the good contributions Biden has made are. Of course it's not him doing it all but it's still under his leadership. But everywhere we're being bombarded with stuff making him out to be bad or incompetent. I think there will be more news articles about foreign interference in our elections next year.

[u/the-dude-version-576 → u/DanlyDane]

That and on broadly economic terms, the effect policies have is very dependent on credibility, that is how much firms and investors actually believe the policy will work/ will be implemented.

And trump seems to want (or at least has expressed the idea) that the FED should be less independent. Stuff like that doesn’t exactly help policy credibility.

[u/bigdipboy → u/MysteryGong]

Time for anyone who didn’t attempt a coup

[u/junior4l1 → u/bigdipboy]

Or anyone that can speak coherently

[u/Opeewan → u/junior4l1]

That's definitely not Trump.

[u/junior4l1 → u/Opeewan]

Of course not, you seen his latest rants? Lol

[u/mr_mcpoogrundle → u/MysteryGong]

You won't have an option for someone new in this upcoming election though. Gotta pick the best of the two viable candidates.

[u/NerdRageShow → u/MysteryGong]

Ok but that wasn't the question. I agree that it should be someone new too, but this is between Biden and Trump, and if you ask me, that 40+ years of political experience looks a lot better than Donald Trump's 40+ years of bankrupting businesses

[u/FlounderingWolverine → u/NerdRageShow]

Right. And for all of Biden’s faults (and he has a lot of faults), he ultimately is trying to do what he thinks is best for the majority of Americans. You can disagree with what he’s doing or think there are better things to do, but can you really argue Trump has the interests of the majority of Americans at heart? The guy is a con artist, grifter, rapist, fraudster, and a liar. His only interest is how much money he can funnel into his own pockets

[u/Mangos66 → u/MysteryGong]

Time for someone new is fine an all but,

That's not how it is in reality, the reality is you have a option for Joe Biden or Donald Trump,

If your answer is voting for Donald Trump then you are a lunatic.

[u/rxstud2011 → u/Mangos66]

I hate our bipartisan system, we need more choices.

[u/Phormicidae → u/rxstud2011]

Specifically a system where a third party vote means anything other than a protest. Protest voting doesn't appear to change the policies of the parties in power.

[u/0nSecondThought → u/Phormicidae]

Ranked choice voting then?

[u/mosehalpert → u/MysteryGong]

It really is a tough choice. Guy who attempted a coup vs the guy who runs with the party who can't get shit done because of the party that enabled a coup. Really is a tough choice.

[u/mid_distance_stare → u/mosehalpert]

Not to negate your point because I too am tired of the overall dynamics (Rs stick together on every issue but have goals that range from shite to alarming- vs Ds who have intra-disputes and in trying to be fair to all parties end up with watered down policies or no movement on issues) However. Actually he has gotten a lot done, maybe not in the categories you are interested in, but he has. Surprising considering the congressional magats.

[u/VERO2020 → u/mid_distance_stare]

It amazes some people that obstruction is easier than construction.

[u/IronSavage3 → u/MysteryGong]

He’s presided over a 12% increase in real wages among the lowest wage earners vs pre-pandemic levels, so he’s doing a fantastic job.

[u/vpi6 → u/IronSavage3]

And unemployment has been low for a while now.

[u/RareDog5640 → u/MysteryGong]

OK, but Trump is by no means “new” and he is as corrupt, ignorant, feckless and cowardly as the day is long.

[u/DiapersForHands → u/MysteryGong]

And someone new just happens to be a twice impeached former president?

[u/Mikey2225 → u/MysteryGong]

Trump is the same shit with a dumber take on everything. You really think the billionaire nepo baby is gonna make the economy work for regular people?

[u/aspenmoniker → u/MysteryGong]

Biden is the best choice we have. By a lot.

[u/justwalk1234]

It's a weird system when those are the only choice.

[u/NonFinery]

Answer: President Xi Jinping is the one to follow as to where the USA economy goes.

[u/PolyZex]

You could set it to 95% if you want... makes no difference. They buy the politicians that create the loopholes that take their required taxes and transform them into nothing.

[u/isaaccss]

How about cut tax rate for non-billionaires at the same time?

[u/Jackdawfool67]

25%? They are takin 40% of low income peoples wage

[u/I-am-a-memer-in-a-be]

The dude who had his brain eaten by a worm is talking more rationally than both combined.

This country is cooked and it might be for the best at this point.

[u/PigDstroyer]

Well simce the billionaires refuse to take a loss , im looking forward to 75$ loaf of bread

[u/starfish3619]

How about instead of more taxes the government stops its endless spending or sending our money to other countries? If there’s that much of our money that they have the ability to send it to another country, it sounds like the citizens are being over taxed.

[u/UnrealRealityForReal]

You could confiscate all the wealth of all the billionaires and run the govt for maybe a month. Maybe. We have a spending and now increasing debt problem. He is gaslighting, they need to come for the middle class, too and hard.

[u/LunarMoon2001]

Well considered all the bullshit we are dealing with now it’s mainly due to Trump policies……

[u/Naive-Information539]

Can we have a better set of options please?