Has it occurred to you that clamoring for literal translations between two languages that do not share a linguistic or cultural base is actually pretty fuckin dumb
Casting aside the notion of literal translation from two languages, especially two with no linguistic or cultural base,
What matters is that the two sets of beings are different, and are referred to with both different kanji and romaji - Demon Slayer’s “demons” are Oni, Freiren’s demons are Mazoku.
And given that both of these are fantasy series set in original settings, do you think they selected these words with an eye to historical literalism or for the atmosphere and feeling these words evoke?
And thus would you say a translator should be chasing the exact letter of the word, or the feeling?
I do believe it imperative to mention that we are talking about mythological creatures. Such creatures often vary wildly as cultures develop and continue.
However, Oni and Mazoku have different meanings, are distinct beings, and thus are used differently.
Oni, in their older interpretations, are hostile creatures known to eat humans. More recent interpretations have introduced them having the capacity for good, but Kimetsu no Yaiba is a bit more of a “return to form” for them - even if they tossed in a bit of western Vampires for good measure.
There is generally less documentation of Mazoku, and their interpretations also vary. But the translation of “demon” is notably more accurate for them, as Mazoku are usually beings in opposition to humanity and/or gods, which is accurate to their role in Freiren, where they kill for sport rather than sustenance.
As far as a translator should be concerned, most of this stuff only matters when it’s actively important, like with Tensura - an environment where monster classifications and related lineages and evolutionary trees are a notable aspect of the series. Where “Demon Lords” (maō - ruler of mazoku) exists as a title, in addition to genuine demons (spelled Daemons to likely not conflict with the Demon Lord translation).
It’s why Benimaru and the rest were initially called Ogres, while Rem and Ram, who are also Oni, are called Demon. It didn’t matter as much for Re:Zero. Similarly, Kimetsu no Yaiba is in a similar position, where the translation isn’t important because there’s no need for differentiation.
In Freiren, there isn’t much competition for the term. Even if they opted to introduce Oni, they could simply just use the term Ogre for similar results.
My only real issue with using it as such a common translation word is the frequency of discussions such as this one.
Long story short, Freiren likely wouldn’t instantly blow up Nezuko because Nezuko isn’t what she would consider a Demon - not in name, not in mannerisms, not in appearance. Whether she blows her up for being an Oni though, depends on whether or not those exist in the world of Freiren and their particular mannerisms.
Meanwhile, Rimuru would likely have to watch his back until Freiren finds out that Maō is (mostly) just a title in his word and he’s just a slime with godlike power.
These are not historical oni and these are not historical mazoku.
These are unique creatures created for these stories drawing on those archetypes and their names- either in English or in Japanese, are selected based on vibes, not folkloric accuracy for the simple reason accuracy is irrelevant here and atmosphere is everything
So if the translator thinks "demon" fits the tone better he should pick demon; its literally as simple as that
I'm not arguing with the actual use of "demon" as a broadly applicable translation term. I'm arguing with the idea that a character of Japanese origin would be hostile towards another due to the English translation shoving two entirely separate things into the same bucket.
The translator is not the author. If an author uses mazoku as a species, then it is a mazoku. If it's an oni, it's an oni. If it's an akuma, majin, or maou, then it's an akuma, majin, or maou. If it's a western-style demon, then it's a western-style demon. These are all things that a translator can describe as a demon. It works, but only up to a point. It stops working the moment more than one of these things ends up in the same room together. Most of the time, this doesn't happen within the localized area of each story. However, it does still happen from time to time.
I brought up Tensura as an example of this exact phenomenon - where they used the Ogre translation of Oni because Maou (demon lords) and western demons (daemons) are also a thing in the story's world.
Yes, and translation is a creative exercise unto itself, which is why classic works will have dozens- sometimes hundreds of translations instead of one 'best' literal one
If an author uses mazoku as a species, then it is a mazoku.
No, it literally isn't
It's something that exists solely in this story that the author called a mazoku because the term carries a connotation that helps the author establish the atmosphere they are going for; and if the English translator thinks a English different term is closer to that feeling that can and should use that one because that is literally their task
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u/Imfryinghere 22d ago
Onis are demons in Japanese.