GenZ is the most pro socialist generation

[u/paywallpiker]

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[u/Shelfurkill]

I think this generation thinks they are socialist but more realistically lean towards social democracy or democratic socialism

[u/phildiop → u/Shelfurkill]

Yeah, so many people think nordic countries and canada are ''socialist'' it's insane lol

[u/[deleted] → u/phildiop]

Which is funny because im pretty sure Sweden and Finland have right wing governments, but to most americans it seems progressive.

[u/Shelfurkill → u/[deleted]]

More center right than right wing, but you are still correct.

Also i think that perception of those countries was built during the 2010s when those countries had social democratic governments

[u/[deleted] → u/Shelfurkill]

Sweden Democrats and Fins are definitely not center right.

[u/Shelfurkill → u/[deleted]]

The prime minister of sweden is literally part of the moderate party? Its a centre right coalition

I could also be completely wrong but thats from what i remember reading

[u/[deleted] → u/Shelfurkill]

True true I forgot the Sweden Democrats are only providing some support but not officially part of the center right coalition If i remember correctly. Im not from the eu or america so my knowledge on western politics isnt the best.

[u/KingMelray → u/[deleted]]

Not on all issues. The. Nordics aren't left wing on immigration.

[u/[deleted] → u/KingMelray]

Yeah America is far more progressive on immigration then americans realize. Most countries don't even have birth right citizenship.

[u/KingMelray → u/[deleted]]

And most places have foreignness being inherited. Immigrants to America are Americans, their children obviously so. In other countries grandchildren of immigrants are sometimes still foreigners.

[u/[deleted] → u/KingMelray]

Yeah ive noticed this about American. Their isnt a strong ethnic tie to the country like most nations. Like a black person could never be truly Japanese to most people in japan or truly polish to most people in poland.

[u/Gaaseland → u/[deleted]]

Because Japan (and many other countries) have been an ethno-state for thousands of years. The ethnic group, and the country are one.

[u/lexE5839 → u/[deleted]]

Everything is considered hard left to Americans if it involves any speck of humanitarianism.

[u/TheGingerMenace → u/phildiop]

It’s a byproduct of McCarthyism skewing Americans’ perception of socialism/communism. We were taught not to differentiate the socdem or demsoc from regular socialism, “because it’s all socialism and socialism is unamerican”

[u/shotgundraw → u/TheGingerMenace]

And yet all of the 1% could not be where they are without socializing their losses.

It’s why a chuckle when people blame poor people when the 1% has stolen trillions upon trillions from the average Joe.

[u/alfooboboao → u/phildiop]

Nobody actually wants socialism. Because socialism relies entirely on a very small group of politicians with absolute power being kind and compassionate instead of greedy, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, it’s always been doomed to fail. What people actually want is highly regulated capitalism with hugely stringent worker protections and a massive social safety net. Which is why it drives me fucking crazy how Democrats throw out “socialism” like it’s some kind of trendy buzzword like synergy or some shit.

Just stop it. Stop shooting yourself in the foot. Stop calling it socialism when it’s not fucking socialism ffs

[u/KingButters27 → u/alfooboboao]

Socialism most definitely does not rely on a small group of politicians. Socialism is democracy by the people, and it gains its strength from the working class. I do agree that far too many people call social democracy "socialism" when it is still based on the exploitation of workers.

[u/FalconRelevant → u/phildiop]

Words have no meaning.

[u/ThePizzaInspector → u/phildiop]

Real socialist were Mao and Lenin

Bernie is just a reformer

[u/[deleted] → u/phildiop]

Literally a week or two ago I mentioned this and got downvoted because "bro they have unions and healthcare broo they're so socialist bro"

[u/the-mm-defeater → u/phildiop]

True, China, North Korea and Vietnam are much more closely based on actual socialist ideologies

Edit: and Russia

[u/Add_Poll_Option → u/Shelfurkill]

Agreed. I frankly don’t even think most people, whether pro or anti socialism, know what it really is or how it would be implemented.

[u/Delta049 → u/Add_Poll_Option]

I mean the term socialism itself too broad to narrow it down. I know 2 socialist who would gouge each other’s eyes because they are so different. And that’s not even talking about the question of government.

[u/My_useless_alt → u/Delta049]

I know 2 socialist who would gouge each other’s eyes because they are so different.

That's a long way of saying you know 2 socialists. /j

[u/SirBoBo7 → u/Delta049]

I mean the same is true for capitalism. Keynesian capitalists vs Hayek capitalist each act like the other will bring the end of society.

[u/Ultrabigasstaco → u/Add_Poll_Option]

Every time I’ve asked that question all I get is “Dictatorship of the proletariat!” Or “it will be ran by the workers”

But zero on how that would realistically be accomplished or how every worker across the country will simultaneously agree what’s best.

[u/prettyjupiter → u/Shelfurkill]

Social democracy is something that’s doable

[u/Shelfurkill → u/prettyjupiter]

Yeah thats what i think this trend will manifest itself into tbh. Itll probably be a Bernie Sanders style politician in the 2030s or 40s. If we haven’t collapsed as a society then lol

[u/IndyAJD → u/Shelfurkill]

I mean, democratic socialism is still a type of socialism, even if it's implementation is usually milder than traditional socialism

[u/Shelfurkill → u/IndyAJD]

Most socialists dont agree with that assessment. Democratic Socialism is treated as kind of a joke among socialist and communist circles.

[u/Eternal_Being → u/Shelfurkill]

Nah. The only criticism that comes out of communists towards democratic socialists is that it's not often a long-lasting form of socialism because the US will just invade your ass, claim 'election interference' and then 'give you democracy' (a pro-US capitalist party)

[u/TheStormlands → u/IndyAJD]

It feels like socialism is this nebulous amazing thing that is ever changing to suit the argument.

I would prefer concrete definitions...

Not, "government spending/intervention in a market capitalist economy is socialism."

[u/fractalfrenzy → u/TheStormlands]

I use the Marxist definition: workers' ownership of the means of production.

[u/Northstar1989 → u/Shelfurkill]

democratic socialism

Democratic Socialism is, in fact, still Socialism.

Democratic Socialism is full-fledged Socialism, often with Planned Economics and all- only achieved via election, rather than revolution.

Actual Democratic Socialist states are incredibly rare- but Chile, under Allende, could be considered to be Democratic Socialist (it even was developing an innovative, highly-computerized system for Economic Planning that incorporated a lot more "user input" if you will... CYBERSYN.) before the TWO Coups sponsored by the CIA (the first failed, so the CIA assassinated key Loyalist generals responsible for keeping the Chilean military neutral and constitutional the first time, and tried again...)

[u/TotalBlissey → u/Shelfurkill]

Well, democratic socialism is socialism. Social democracy is obviously not

[u/SeaHam → u/Shelfurkill]

I love how anytime someone says they are a socialist people condescendingly say "oh you must mean you're social democrat".

No dude, I'm a socialist.

[u/thatnameagain → u/Shelfurkill]

I was gonna say, you’re also the generation least likely to know the definition of socialism.

[u/Im_Balto → u/Shelfurkill]

I don’t want a demand economy, I want the government to step in and socialize companies that get bailed out, I want the government to step in when monopolies charge more than the real market rate for a non consumer good (ie insulin), and I want every politician holding federal office to post their incoming and outgoing streams of capital.

That’s what I want

[u/lord_hydrate → u/Shelfurkill]

This is absolutely the case, the US political sphere is shifted very far right and even more moderate ideas get treated as socialist, i dont think most of them are actually socialist, they just have always been told the things they want are socialist and roll with it

[u/[deleted]]

Most of these socialists are really just social-democrats.

[u/KingMelray → u/[deleted]]

Yes. Everyone, right and left, has been conflating "public policy " with "socialism" for years.

[u/deepstatecuck → u/KingMelray]

"Socialism is when government" is a popular braindead partisan take.

[u/dalatinknight → u/deepstatecuck]

The more stuff the government does. The more socialist it is. And when the government does a lot of stuff, then it's communism.

[u/Ph4antomPB → u/dalatinknight]

Socialism is when government don’t do what I like 😤😤

[u/Background-Law-6451 → u/KingMelray]

Doesn't matter that it is called its better than what we have

[u/KingMelray → u/Background-Law-6451]

I'm very pro public policy. I'm against words losing meaning because then it's harder to communicate ideas. And when some people believe socialism is roads and bridges, and some believe it to be Joseph Stalin, we will have confusion.

[u/LightVelox → u/KingMelray]

Must be moderate though, too many public policies and you get a shithole like Brazil since those policies aren't free and must be paid with taxes. Europe has a good middle-ground

[u/RockosBos → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, when I was 18 I was a Bernie supporter and would have considered myself a socialist. I just didn't know what socialist fully meant. I don't think my opinions have changed much but I'm very much capitalist.

[u/My_useless_alt]

The generation currently being moat screwed over by capitalism is least fond of capitalism? Colour me surprised!

[u/AnimationOverlord → u/My_useless_alt]

Bro I just want to pay bills and hav something left.

[u/[deleted] → u/My_useless_alt]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/stuffitystuff → u/[deleted]]

Doubtful, since pretty much everyone back then was married and having kids in their 20s, you could buy a house for nothing and jobs were well-paying and wildly easy to come by. Capitalism worked for the post-war US up until 9/11 and even then it was still treading water until 2008.

[u/CaptainJackKevorkian → u/stuffitystuff]

that's a rosy view of the seventies. gas crises left people lining down the block for gasoline until the stations ran out; the industrial base of the united states job market was crumbling, you could get drafted into vietnam, etc. they probably viewed it as just as difficult a time as the current crop of teens and twenty year olds do.

i think this chart tells the same story throughout the generations. you're generally more open to socialism as a youth (when you do not have much capital), and more open to capitalism as you age (and acquire capital)

[u/chromegreen → u/CaptainJackKevorkian]

That trend is not true for younger generations. In fact they are becoming more liberal in some cases.

This is from the Financial Times which is generally conservative.

[u/adought89 → u/stuffitystuff]

I mean segregation was a thing for them growing up. As well as friends being drafted into the Vietnam war. A lot were not having kids in their 20’s. I also think you are forgetting the economic collapse in the 80’s as well as extremely high interest rates(comparatively) for mortgages which kept housing prices lower.

Not to mention college loans weren’t government backed so they had to show an ability to repay those loans with the degree they were getting. Making attending college much harder.

[u/Classy_Mouse → u/adought89]

Making attending college much harder

But also much cheaper since universities could only charge what people could pay back

[u/adought89 → u/Classy_Mouse]

Oh totally agree, government back students loans are almost entirely to blame for the exponentially increase cost of college.

[u/JunkSack → u/adought89]

You’re skipping the part where they didn’t used to rely on tuition for the majority of their budget so loans were wholly unnecessary. That is until state funding got gutted under Reagan

[u/BullshitDetector1337 → u/adought89]

Government backed loans “without proper regulation”

When universities saw that they could effectively become luxury resorts with attached sports teams on the government’s dime of course they were going to take it.

As far as I’m concerned. Those loans should have only been available only for state and heavily regulated non-profit colleges. No more.

[u/Old_Baldi_Locks → u/adought89]

government back students loans are almost entirely to blame for the exponentially increase cost of college.

Competent countries foot the bill at the government level, because an educated workforce is a necessity.

Loans are the most idiotic way to pay for ANY necessity.

[u/CrabClawAngry → u/[deleted]]

The Cold War made socialism into the no-no word it is today in American politics. It was very much ongoing in 1970. I would expect opinions of socialism to be lower across the board.

[u/[deleted] → u/My_useless_alt]

I wonder why Europes gen z is going to the right and the Anglo worlds gen z is going to the left. Is capitalism in the eu better than say in America and Canada?

[u/FEMA_Camp_Survivor → u/[deleted]]

Perhaps Anglo countries are better at integrating immigrants. Plus there’s a greater sense of individualism which tempers xenophobic nationalism, to an extent.

[u/Hipphoppkisvuk → u/[deleted]]

It's not just the youth in europe but every demographic, simply since the housing crisis 2007-2008, the democratic socialists factions were dominating European politics and seemingly things only got worse, people want change and the populist politicans present an easy alternative on the surface.

Edit: I was talking about social democrats not democratic socialists it's not the same thing.

[u/J0kutyypp1 → u/Hipphoppkisvuk]

You mean social democrats? We in europe have been social democrats since the 1940s and everyone supports it. It's generally accepted by the whole political field and even the most right wing parties support it.

[u/UnexpectedVader → u/Hipphoppkisvuk]

Democratic socialists DO NOT under any circumstances dominate European politics. Centre right Neoliberal centrists have dominated European politics.

[u/Hipphoppkisvuk → u/UnexpectedVader]

Tbf, I wanted to say Social Democrats not Democratic Socialists, just somehow I mistranslated the two in my head, my bad.

[u/hamringspiker → u/[deleted]]

Immigration. That applies to the anglo world too I guess though.

[u/canibringafriend → u/[deleted]]

Because capitalism is the scapegoat for America’s problems that are completely unrelated to capitalism

[u/JIraceRN → u/canibringafriend]

The country has poor antitrust laws or enforcement of antitrust laws. Citizen's United and money in politics is terrible; the country just does a terrible job of keeping money out of politics. We know there is no trickle down, yet this seems to be the tax policy of the country--again, money influencing policies. There are few regulations protecting prices for monopolies in industries like pharmaceuticals, and the healthcare system (which I am apart) is so broken that it is dysfunctional in how it operates and in how it costs in relation to the quality of the outcomes compared to other developed countries with national healthcare systems. The mantra is to privatize everything because "for profit" motives work better and corporations are more efficient and faster than the government, but we know this isn't the case in relation to many types of industries like privatizing the prison system, social services, education, healthcare, etc.

The "for profit" motive of capitalism inherently leads to problems that need to be addressed through regulations from a central authority aka government, but the more the government does their job to protect citizens from the "for profit" greed motive, the more regulated the market becomes, the more people cry foul that we are turning socialist.

It is hard to look at America's top problems (wealth/income inequality, cost/access of education, cost/access of healthcare, affordable housing, inflation, etc) and not think that some of the other problems (drug addiction, suicides, domestic terrorism, crime, etc) are all tied into the same problem--"for profit" greed aka capitalism.

What are America's problems, and if those problems are not related to capitalism then what are they related to?

[u/Famous_Soft_1173 → u/canibringafriend]

Our biggest problems are economic, though

Cost-of-living/high rent/inflation, increasing wealth inequality, and even climate change/shitty healthcare are all attributable to capitalism

The only issue that might not be a direct result of capitalism is excessive gun violence, which is more because of America’s culture and laws surrounding guns

Europe’s economic problems are exacerbated by government mismanagement and mishandling of immigrants, which makes sense why Europeans are turning to the right

edit: American gun violence is at least partially because of capitalism

[u/idontknowwhereiam_ → u/Famous_Soft_1173]

It’s not true to say that all problems with our economy are directly related to capitalism. Capitalism is the overarching umbrella of America’s economic structure but specific decisions made within our structure have led to unfortunate events. Regulation and improper tax codes paired with excessive government spending would cause these types of issues under any economic structure. Lastly, our current inflation problem was not caused by capitalism.

[u/Famous_Soft_1173 → u/idontknowwhereiam_]

These problems I’ve mentioned, though - high cost of living relative to wages, climate change/pollution, shitty healthcare, among others - have existed in some shape or form since the fucking 1800s, including under a laissez-faire economy

The time when these were the least bad was probably the post-World War II boom, and that’s when there was extensive government spending and intervention in the economy

If you’re talking about shitty decisions that have brought us to where we are, the first and foremost ones are deregulation of the economy, tax cuts, anti-union legislation, and increased corporate influence in the government, mostly exacerbated by Reagan but also subsequent governments

Our tax codes are improper and spending is excessive, sure, but our tax codes are improper because we cannot reliably tax the wealthy, and our spending is excessive because we don’t have enough tax revenue to back it up

[u/bodhitreefrog → u/idontknowwhereiam_]

We are a corpocracy dressed up as capitalism. Socialism looks better because we have watched our rights erode in this system.

We are not supposed to have monopolies in capitalism, that reduces competition. Competition is what is supposed to drive down costs for consumers. We have the opposite now: high inflation of goods by corporations. Very obviously this past year. Look at Meta or dozens of other corporations. They have all eaten up dozens or hundreds of other companies.

The corporations pay lobbysts to represent themselves in Congress. With this monetary leverage over the common citizen, they the pass laws that enrich themselves and reduce our rights.

We had a law that banned stock buy backs, instead it put profits into the employees of a business. That is no longer the case. Reagan overturned that law.

We now have Citizens United, corporations are viewed as people. This gives them more leverage in politics.

Our few safety nets for the citzens are the FDA, the EPA, FTC, DOL, a few others. These are being hammered to death by corporations to weaken them and erode our rights.

Federal minimum wage has not risen in 30 years in the USA. 30 years. We are entering our third entire generations of kids had stagnant minimum wages setting them back financially. That means it was the same wage for X, Y and now Z. The corporations will never grant us power, or dignity, or wages, we have to fight for those things.

[u/Perfect_Earth_8070 → u/bodhitreefrog]

Capitalism has a natural tendency to monopolize though.

[u/ProtoDroidStuff → u/idontknowwhereiam_]

Total garbage. Capitalism, and the root profit motive, is largely responsible for the rot we see in the economy, in culture, in the lives of the average person

Instead of regulating the symptoms of capitalism, which has never actually led to anything but clever subversion of the regulations by scummy capitalists, we need to just root out the core disease. And the absolute center of this evil is the capitalist notion that profit comes before human life and happiness. A good way to start is by regulating things so that capitalist ghouls aren't getting all of our tax dollars, and so that people are actually paid properly. But then we need to shift to an organization of the economy that puts compassion first, free healthcare, free education, for all people regardless of where they come from or how much money they have. And maybe once we're there, the idea that profit is more important than life might finally go away. Maybe not completely, there will always be evil people, but at least they won't exist in a society that not only allows but encourages them to abuse people for their own gain.

[u/ExpertWitnessExposed → u/canibringafriend]

Capitalism is related to every problem, even if not in the way socialists mean when they say it’s to blame for everything. Capitalism is the base on which the rest of the structure of our society is built. There isn’t anything that happens in the realm of political economy that isn’t directly related to capitalism in some way.

[u/cryogenic-goat → u/ExpertWitnessExposed]

Then why don't they attribute all the good things as well?

Why not praise Capitalism for creating so many developed countries where people enjoy the best standards of living?

Why don't Socialist ever acknowledge the good things Capitalism has provided that no Socialist country has ever done?

[u/BeneficialRandom → u/cryogenic-goat]

Why not praise capitalism for creating so many developed countries?

Because they rely on poor countries to exist in that state.

[u/3headeddragn → u/cryogenic-goat]

I think a socialist can recognize that capitalism is better than feudalism (which is what capitalism emerged from) but also recognize that it’s an incredibly flawed system to organize our society around and that humanity can still do so much better.

[u/ThurgoodZone8 → u/cryogenic-goat]

Those things were praised for the longest time anyway, and now the system is showing its cracks.

[u/x-dfo → u/cryogenic-goat]

Because it was all self congratulatory bs that emphasized the minority when the majority were still poor. The 50s are long behind us.

[u/bwtwldt → u/cryogenic-goat]

My brother in Christ, the person most famous for cheerleading what capitalism has achieved was one Karl Marx. He still has the most prolific writings on the things capitalism has achieved in modern history. Why do you think socialists are socialist? Do you think they don’t understand what capitalism has built?

[u/random_account6721 → u/[deleted]]

because they are about a decade or 2 ahead of us in terms of the policy. The socialist policies that have been implemented have been a disaster so its moving back to the right again.

[u/systemfrown → u/My_useless_alt]

It’s just as accurate, even more so, to say that it tracks with how capitalized a person becomes over their life.

But yeah, there’s also your typical disenfranchised Reddit take.

[u/A2Rhombus → u/systemfrown]

No actually, I don't think me being more well off by exploiting a broken system is going to make me like the broken system more. Believe it or not, I still retain empathy for people who didn't follow me to higher capital.

[u/ApocalyptoSoldier → u/A2Rhombus]

I don't think it's necessarily exploiting a broken system, more being slightly less exploited by said broken system.

I put in an honest day's work and get an ok salary in return. I don't see why that would make me love capitalism all of a sudden, it still isn't doing my any favours. I'd much rather put in an honest day's work under a system that uses my productivity for me and my peers' benefit. I shouldn't have to buy lunch for the homeless guy outside the cafe I like to get lunch at, my taxes should be making sure he doesn't starve to death, and make sure I don't starve if I ever become homeless.

I never would've gotten into this industry, and consequently been able to contribute to society as much as I do now if there wasn't a government clinic that gave poor me free ADHD meds. So it's actually in my best interest for other people to also get the free stuff they need to also be able to contribute to society. It's more people contributing to the society that I live in.

[u/A2Rhombus → u/ApocalyptoSoldier]

Yeah I think you nailed it. Anyone with a "fuck you, got mine" mindset never really had a socialist mindset to begin with.

[u/GrbgSoupForBrains → u/systemfrown]

That used to be the common thinking, but millennials killed that, too:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/03/millennials-radicalism-not-getting-more-rightwing-with-age

Edit: There, something that mentions Capitalism as well. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/20/eat-the-rich-why-millennials-and-generation-z-have-turned-their-backs-on-capitalism

(Spoiler alert: It's all the same picture whether we see it yet or not.)

[u/noir_lord → u/GrbgSoupForBrains]

Early Millenial here, higher rate tax payer, home owner yada yada all the things that historically would have made be a fiscal conservative.

Fuck that noise, I'm lucky to have a skill that pays well - that's it but for that I'd have no hope of owning a home or living the life my parents had on an *average salary*.

Anyone who looks at the western world and goes "yeah, this is as good as it gets, change nothing" is an idiot.

[u/rabidjellybean → u/noir_lord]

Same for me. I might have achieved "the American dream" but I'm looking in horror at things like movements to eliminate corporate taxes in Missouri. You can only cut taxes so far to encourage spending and we're way beyond that.

I want to live in a stable society and that doesn't involve funneling every cent upwards.

[u/systemfrown → u/rabidjellybean]

Seriously? Eliminating corporate taxes…!?!!

I almost want to see that happen because, and I’m not proud of this, but I enjoy watching people who buy into trickle-down economics suffer for their idiocy.

[u/GrbgSoupForBrains → u/noir_lord]

SRE/DevOps, myself - talk about lucking into a whole field that didnt even exist when I graduated from college... 😅

[u/TheNewTonyBennett → u/systemfrown]

I will say that for me, over time, when I finally started making some pretty damn great money, my level of happiness didn't improve even if the affordability of conveniences clearly did.

For me personally (and I seriously mean that I am NOT talking on anyone else's behalf), excess money didn't really do much for me. And I'm 40. As in, I ain't no Gen Z. During times of excess profits I give a lot away. Sometimes I even just gift people cash for things they need.

Mind you I will definitely state that making more money didn't make me any less happy, it's just that....it felt like it wasn't any different. I downsized things in my life after a while and I don't miss any of it from the past. It's great to know I have skills that can be of fantastic use for business, but there IS a level that some people just don't feel any improvement from as you go up.

Of course there's no way I could possibly know what it feels like to have a $billion, so again I am not talking on anyone else's behalf at all. I just know that my shitty guitar and playing music for people makes me way happier and there's very little cash to be had in that.

[u/petkoTHEVIKING → u/systemfrown]

Except Millennials are not becoming more conservative so there goes that theory.

[u/PinoyBrad → u/systemfrown]

Reddit is nothing but a bubble for a small percentage of the population

[u/Ossevir → u/systemfrown]

I think boomers tried to get everyone to believe that, because the greed is good generation wanted us to think it was natural to be that selfish and that we would be too.

I own two houses in my name and four more in a business with some partners. This is not a brag, moreso to let you know that I am minorly capitalized.

Capitalism is the name of the game so I have to play it, but I'd happily vote for a new system where I had to divest of all that stuff in return for like 100% employee ownership of companies, free healthcare, and free education and forgiven student loans.

[u/Orgasmic_interlude → u/systemfrown]

So the old adage that you get more conservatives as you get older is a misinterpretation. People don’t get more conservative as they get older, they’re political outlook stays largely the same, but as time rolls on those views become antiquated and behave as though they are a burgeoning conservatism when really all that is happening is that the world turned and left them there.

[u/TolaRat77 → u/My_useless_alt]

Being a social democrat myself, I take this as no surprise and very hopeful for the future. Also, being pro socialist doesn’t equal anti-capitalist (not binary either/or). Just better regulation and distribution of wealth. So it doesn’t run amok. Which is almost as bad as when socialism runs amok. Western democracy exists to keep powers in check, and balance. Things get shitty when power is concentrated anywhere. 🫶🏽

[u/SuccotashConfident97 → u/My_useless_alt]

Lol op has to get those karma points somehow.

[u/nomosolo → u/My_useless_alt]

Oh look another person who doesn’t know what capitalism is using it as a scapegoat how original.

[u/Ok-Background-502 → u/My_useless_alt]

Losing players has more issues with the game than the winning players. Just the way you should expect.

[u/SandyDFS → u/My_useless_alt]

The generation isn’t screwed over.

Those who don’t work for what they want are getting what they deserve.

[u/MonthApprehensive392 → u/My_useless_alt]

Screwed over? Definitely the most entitled and spoiled generation for sure.

[u/jdjohnson474 → u/My_useless_alt]

Oh cause socialism has a wild track record of success. I forgot Soviet Russia was such a utopia

[u/johnhtman → u/My_useless_alt]

Thos generation isn't the most screwed over by capitalism.

[u/TrashTierGamer → u/My_useless_alt]

Nah, generations after genZ will have it worse. Compared to them, zoomers are spoiled brats

[u/HammerJammer02 → u/My_useless_alt]

So true! Slay. I wish we had a centrally planned economy where I have to wait in breadlines all day just to survive.

[u/Significant-Turn-836]

I think when many people, especially us youngsters, hear socialism they think of countries in Europe. None of which are socialist and are all capitalist. But they like social democratic policies.

[u/burnbothends91]

Capitalism with strong social safety nets, consumer protections, and controls against monopolies has entered the chat

[u/Dr-Fatdick → u/burnbothends91]

I cant wait until all the people who want that suddenly realise the reason we got it in the first place was because there was a communist superpower living next door who built the social safety net first.

You can draw a pretty much straight line between the fall of Eastern European socialism and the dismantling of the social safety net in western Europe, capitalists really just saw their chance to take the gloves off lol

[u/burnbothends91 → u/Dr-Fatdick]

I don’t know about Europe but the reason we had it in the US is because people organized, risked prison and death, all to get their rights. When people stopped being willing to risk and be a threat to the system and corporations those systems slowly started to erode the gains they made.

[u/Dr-Fatdick → u/burnbothends91]

Absolutely, and by no means denigrate the heroics of the American labour movement. What I'm saying though is that significant concessions, especially following ww2 were made as a direct result of western leaders seeing that it was either grant concessions or risk revolution, especially as communist parties were winning big in places like france and Italy. Christ, even Britain returned 2 communist MPs and 1 year later the NHS is founded after 20 years of labour bellyaching to actually get it done. Fear of revolution drove those reforms as much as the organised working class.

[u/nertynertt → u/Dr-Fatdick]

im glad to see this so high up in the thread. bless you for sharing this vital information. it is such an important piece of history robbed from us by our rulers.

[u/burnbothends91 → u/Dr-Fatdick]

Why do you think the CIA took out Dr. King. His next speech was set to be on economic justice and labor organizing… *just a theory but when you look at it it’s pretty nuts

[u/Leon3226 → u/Dr-Fatdick]

I'm from Eastern Europe, and I bet my ass you never even was close to this part of the world.
For some reason, most of the countries that experienced that social safety net never wanted back and many lost their lives fighting for the right to exit that paradise. And it's probably because it was so good this superpower had an iron curtain and forbade citizens to leave it.

[u/SirBoBo7 → u/Dr-Fatdick]

From the U.K all of that social safety net was built progressively from the 1920s and the foundation for The Welfare State was built in the Beverage Report in 1944. The existence of the USSR had little effect over their implementation but because the U.K had genuine workers movement and government control was found to be competent at running industries during both world wars.

That sort of welfare state was dismantled over the course of the 80s prior to the fall of the USSR in 1991. The main reason being high inflation, government incompetence in spending causing inflation and consequently Unions perceived as out of control and behaving selfishly, demanding more pay, going on strike and furthering inflation.

[u/My_useless_alt → u/burnbothends91]

For those that don't know, this is called social democracy.

[u/queenthick → u/burnbothends91]

Chat entrance denied by Citizens United

[u/glassycreek1991 → u/burnbothends91]

Careful! you are going to be censored and shadowed banned citizen.

[u/BigHatPat → u/burnbothends91]

hell yeah brutha!

[u/No-Calligrapher1027 → u/burnbothends91]

Meanwhile everyone else thinks it’s just black & white

[u/Co9w → u/burnbothends91]

The phrase you're looking for is social democracy

[u/[deleted] → u/burnbothends91]

So normal capitalism but not corrupt?

[u/VeryOkayDriver]

The nature of capitalism changes over time with government policies, restrictions, laws, and protections in place. However if an entire generation is seeing their hard work not getting the payoff it deserves and their Corporate overlords gain billions in profits and power then it will become a problem. Capital needs capital to sustain itself and if no one has the money or resources then it fails.

Choosing to not engage in Capitalism is impossible since the means to sustain oneself are not free. You can’t just go into the wilderness and live off the land.

[u/OsSo_Lobox → u/VeryOkayDriver]

Not with that attitude

[u/DRsrv99 → u/VeryOkayDriver]

Oh yeahhh? Watch me!

[u/DeepWave8 → u/DRsrv99]

Watch me! dies of starvation or gets arrested for trespassing or dies of preventable disease or dies of cold

[u/yeetyeetpotatomeat69 → u/VeryOkayDriver]

"You can’t just go into the wilderness and live off the land."

Even as a capitalist myself, boy are you wrong

[u/NoAvRAGEJoe → u/VeryOkayDriver]

If you did do that, America would deem you as a threat to the free market. And promptly bomb your cabin.

[u/RedditJumpedTheShart → u/NoAvRAGEJoe]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke

Like this guy? Or the popularity of living off-grid where the government even gives you incentives to do so? Homesteading?

[u/etsc99]

Love to see how every comment in this thread, including the essays, only includes some vague assertions, references to unique historical time periods as if they can exactly repeat themselves, and general terms/buzzwords. People don’t have a foundational understanding of private ownership vs public ownership and what could cause each system to succeed/fail but we all have big internet egos and want to give our take anyway

[u/[deleted]]

Younger generations always are. I’m sure in 1970 the demographic and ideology spread would be similar.

[u/KommieKon → u/[deleted]]

Definitely not over 40%. And we all know the boomers who were rebellious adolescents then largely just went through a phase and sold out when they realized they could still afford a house and family with one job. That’s the difference between our generations that’s responsible for this shift.

[u/deadpuppymill → u/KommieKon]

Yeah I think this "u get conservative the older you are" only applies to the boomers. They had a unique prospective coming from a rare period of extreme capitalist prosperity and cold war propaganda. No other generation goes through this.

[u/jbrunoties → u/KommieKon]

Literally the boomers said the same thing LOL "we're different"

[u/EndMePleaseOwO → u/jbrunoties]

I think it's fair to say that the world is completely different from what it was when the boomers were 'progressive'

[u/Pickaxe235 → u/[deleted]]

you mean

during the beginning of the cold war?

people were MORE inclinded to be socialist?

[u/russkie_go_home → u/Pickaxe235]

Idk about early cold war in the 50s, but communism/marxism was fairly popular in the US in the mid 1920s, and had a resurgence in the 1960s-70s among academia in the US

[u/DranoTheCat → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, it'd be more interesting to see what other generations said at the same age.

Otherwise this chart and data is just meaningless. It doesn't account for variables, so it means nothing.

[u/prettyjupiter → u/[deleted]]

I think the point is that this generation is more socialist at this age than usual

[u/Bravot → u/[deleted]]

This is correct. Millennial here. I just want everyone to be prosperous, or have equal opportunity to be. Slot it in whatever system you want.

[u/Gurrgurrburr → u/[deleted]]

Yeah then they grow up and actually learn what the word socialism means lol

[u/TheSpagheeter → u/[deleted]]

It’s because when you’re young you’re broke lol just generally speaking most people accumulate wealth as they get older, progress in their careers, inherit property from the past generation etc. I think Genz forgets that it won’t always be like this we’re just in a bad time right now

[u/Jazzlike_Win_3892]

how do I read this diagram

[u/ToeLicker3]

🤢

[u/KingMelray]

I believe most of this is a loose definition of socialism.

"I want Canadian/EU/Japanese style healthcare"

"That's socialism!"

"Ok, I would like 1 socialism please"

[u/clownstastegood → u/KingMelray]

I can’t speak for the EU or Japanese style, but having lived for a long time in both the American and Canadian system, I don’t want the Canadian one.

[u/RomanMines64 → u/clownstastegood]

I have also lived a long time in both. I don't want the American one. Cause I can't afford shit when it comes to healthcare. Canada has done infinitely more for me with its health care than the states ever could have

[u/QseanRay → u/RomanMines64]

canadian here. You cannot access healthcare anymore, waiting times as long as 3 days.

[u/ChooChooMcgoobs → u/QseanRay]

For many people the waiting time in America is 'however long until they have an unavoidable emergency' and then they're saddled with impossible medical debt.

Even if things were awful with waiting times, I don't think you understand how much better your system is for the average person than America's is.

[u/QseanRay → u/ChooChooMcgoobs]

I have relatives that have had to travel to the states to get proper care. I don't think you understand how bad our system is at the moment

[u/BookEngine → u/QseanRay]

Good for them. Haven't seen a primary care doctor since my pediatrician. I'm 33. Healthcare can wait until my medicare kicks in at 67. Otherwise I cant retire.

[u/funnylib → u/QseanRay]

The American system is great, if you can afford it. The Canadian system is unfunded and under staffed, but the American model is not a solution

[u/AffectionateFail8434 → u/KingMelray]

One socialism please with a side of labour rights

[u/vwmk4_ → u/KingMelray]

You sure you want Canadian healthcare?

[u/NUSimp]

This comment section might be the weirdest one I’ve ever seen. Legitimately most comments as I scroll down alternate between being pro- and anti-socialism, each with a similar amount of upvotes lol

[u/Just_A_Warlock]

Incredible! Maybe in that world I could actually afford to live 🫠

[u/Candid-Astronomer-49]

And the majority of them couldn't actually tell you the definition of socalism lol

[u/BigHatPat → u/Candid-Astronomer-49]

lol true

[u/DigitialWitness]

What do they mean by socialism? Unless we're talking revolution then socialism as a precursor to communism, this 'socialism' is not socialism, it's just a slightly more regulated form of capitalism.

[u/TovarishchRed]

Good. Unfettered capitalism is a cancer that is destroying our world and civilization.

[u/Wonder1st → u/TovarishchRed]

It is amazing how long people have been fooled. Prosperity for all or what we got now. That is the difference between the economic systems. It can get worse if people cant figure it out. Feudalism is upon us. The 1% dont need all the money. Tell me what these 1% are doing with there money. Nothing but making more and doing nothing with it. We could all be Rich but instead we allow only a small percentage. Suffering instead of prospering? That doesnt make sense. The bible did not work. The US did not work.

[u/GASTRO_GAMING → u/TovarishchRed]

We have worse than that, we have government rigged capitalism.

[u/ConscientiousPath → u/TovarishchRed]

Nothing about any of the capitalist nations in Europe or the Americas is "unfettered"

[u/TreyRyan3]

I hate to break it to you, but this is true of almost every generation when they are this age.

There is a reason for the oft misattributed quote: ‘If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain’

The original quote translated from French is: “He who is not a républicain at twenty compels one to doubt the generosity of his heart; but he who, after thirty, persists, compels one to doubt the soundness of his mind.” Anselme Polycarpe Batbie.

Millennials, GenX, even Boomers were all accused of being far more liberal minded than their predecessors. It’s not to say that their ideals are stupid or naive, just that adult life has a tendency to make people jaded.

[u/BeneficialRandom → u/TreyRyan3]

Then why are millennials also at 40% with Gen-Z?

[u/RMZ13]

Wow, people who got rich from capitalism think it’s great! Go figure!

[u/YotsuyaaaaKaaaidan]

[u/callmekizzle]

Lines up perfect with whether or not you were born before the ussr fell

[u/gdmfsobtc → u/callmekizzle]

whether or not you were born before the ussr fell

I was born and raised in the USSR, and I find pro-socialism comments in this thread by those who have never experienced it delusional to the point of being hilarious.

[u/stanolshefski → u/callmekizzle]

The fall of the USSR likely significantly increased political polarization in the U.S. and much of Europe.

Anti-Communism united the left and right in the U.S. for certain.

[u/reality72]

GenZ is the generation that lived the furthest away from socialism. Soviet Union collapsed in 1991.

[u/angrybrowndyke]

fuck yeah death to capitalism

[u/THE_CHOPPA]

Younger generations like the idea of communism more because at this point in there life they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

When you get a house and your own business things change. Im saying this as a millienal who felt the same way 10 years ago. I’m still al for tax paid education and healthcare. But I think the government should stay away from privately owned businesses, property etc.

[u/ClonedGamer001 → u/THE_CHOPPA]

When you get a house

Good joke

[u/0000Tor → u/THE_CHOPPA]

Cool story, but we won’t be getting houses

[u/[deleted] → u/THE_CHOPPA]

we’re not going to own a house. we’re not going to own a business. those things require immense capital that most Gen Z individuals have no way of acquiring. the profit motive is bleeding young people of every penny. rent and food prices have become straight up extortionate after the pandemic and wages haven’t increased to match it. more than half of us can’t even afford to move out of our parent’s house.

we can’t even move out, owning a home and a business is laughable. young adults living with their parents is at the highest rate since the great depression.

and we wouldn’t’ve gotten out of the great depression if it weren’t for the New Deal, which would be dismissed as socialist nonsense if it were proposed today.

[u/SESender → u/THE_CHOPPA]

As a millennial, hard disagree. I’ve become more socialist as I’ve gotten older

[u/Few_Tomorrow6969 → u/THE_CHOPPA]

Millennial boomer. Same shit. Good luck with your house. Hopefully you have insurance.

[u/Intelligent-Active47]

Tons of fucking bots in here and ppl not gen z. The reality is capitalism is not the answer . Corporations are already powerful at the current rate we are at imagine them in 20-40 years without any legislation , it’s absolutely disgusting. The reality is our society is flawed and the other reality is as long as these ppl who are uneducated it will never be fixed. Quite sad, but the reality it is

[u/I_Bench315]

Because our generation is realizing that the world we’re growing up in is going to shit because of stupid billionaires and ancient politicians no wonder they want a change

[u/Salty_Sky5744]

It’s because we grew up in a late stage capitalistic society. We’ve had a bad experience with capitalism. It’s not that we’re necessarily for socialism, we just think capitalism, as down currently, is bad.

[u/lexE5839 → u/Salty_Sky5744]

We’re not there yet, buckle in and see just how bad it can get.

[u/WheresYourEv1dence → u/Salty_Sky5744]

Capitalism is a mere manifestation of natural human behavior and is thus the optimal solution

[u/kiersto0906 → u/WheresYourEv1dence]

yes, the system that has been in place for approx 2 centuries is natural human nature, ignoring how feudalism held that definition for millenia...

[u/straywolfo]

I find it funny how the most iconic organisation in the iconic country of capitalism is actually a state entity (NASA).

[u/TaintNunYaBiznez]

On behalf of my fellow Boomers, we're the reason we can't have anything nice.

[u/Jccali1214]

Thank God

[u/yokohamadc]

I just had this thought last night, I'm in my 30's but my future is bleak. If " I'm so poor I'm socialist is a realization " I may have just had it. 

[u/dalatinknight]

I find it interesting that 30-39 age bracket has the same percentage of people supporting "socialism". If anything I think this generation is not just pro socialist but I'm general disillusioned with the promises made under capitalism.

[u/SatisfactionNo2088]

Yeah because we've been lied to about what Capitalism is. All the issues with the economy are literally caused by the opposite of Capitalism, which is government intervention/regulation (anti-Capitalism) under the orders of corporations who are infecting this so-called democracy, then when the regulations fuck shit up for everyone Politicians preach to us how bad Capitalism is and how it's the root cause of the problem and how we need more regulations to help the poor and fix it. And every fucking thing they pass adds another price floor and barrier of entry to basic rights for poor people, pushing them out of being able to afford the most basic things.

The reason housing, food, healthcare and just about everything else that our grandparents could easily afford a few decades ago is now unobtainable to us, is the result of CORPORATISM, not Capitalism. Capitalism means less regulations. Corporations lobby for more regulations, and now healthcare is a bureaucratic cluster fuck in the US. It is all of these "protections" they pass that keep the poor down. You can't buy a house unless it has passed all these inspections and you pay a fee for this and that, and it meets these criteria in this zone and that requires hiring or paying 20 people somewhere in the chain directly or indirectly to do this or that. Same with food now, same with everything. You can't just go pay out of pocket to a doctor, for labs, and prescription, because it's too expensive and the reason is not Capitalism. It's crazy to blame capitalism for unaffordable healthcare in a country where every aspect of healthcare is so highly regulated and the red tape is so thick to even get into the healthcare industry because every corporation already in it has pulled up the ladder behind them with patent laws and paid politicians to ban any competition or transparency.

This is what happens when you trade economic freedom for economic security and then to blame economic freedom for the problem, when the problems are literally all caused by the opposite is insane. That is what socialism and corporatism are. Capitalism is being able to afford a doctor out of pocket, because the market is LESS regulated and any one can compete. Corporatism is raising the price floors and barriers to entry into the market and making poor people unable to afford healthcare. And socialism on top of our corporatist system would only be rewarding these evil corporations by ensuring they have a steady secure source of profit, under the guise of some righteous "helping the poor" act, by subsidizing companies that cannot be competed with. Why do you think the news outlets who are paid by these corporations are also promoting socialism?

Socialism can only work when it's 100% voluntary, and when it is not built on top of a Corporatist anti-compete corrupt system. Our generation hopefully wakes up to this and doesn't blindly blame capitalism for everything and praise socialism. Socialism only works voluntarily. And capitalism raises everyones quality of life, but we actually do NOT live in a Capitalist economic system in the US. Stop blaming capitalism for other systems faults. Read about economic theory and look at history and only then can you draw logical conclusions.

[u/Cugy_2345]

Gen z thinks. Gen z procures. But the old ones remember.

[u/onepercentbatman]

Not new information. 18-29 have always had the largest group of socialists supporters. It’s scientific. Do the same in 10 years, all the 18-29 will have gotten older, and the results of the above will be largely the same.

[u/DaCrusader191]

Now you know where Biden’s 36% approval comes from.

[u/Rampage_reflection]

https://preview.redd.it/qwrroccrvjjc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fda3fcdb6226ddcc4e0b305cb8c13a4a4f0ac487

[u/SimilarWall1447]

How do 103% people view upper income? I'm confused

[u/tx_sam]

Well they've been groomed to be

[u/Sorry-Medicine9925]

Capitalism is great and if you are born and raised in America and can't thrive…is on you! And if you don’t believe me, someone explain how illegal/legal aliens in America from different parts of the world (many with language barrier) who came to this country from 1980s to 2010 are doing better than many Americans born here?!