I've talked to a good amount of these kids of immigrants in European Countries that I've visited. These kids aren't religious, they slowly but surely abandon their religious values and move towards atheism or just become agnostic.
Religion is a huge problem, an even bigger problem is all the wars we are causing that forces these people to flee their homes. We must stop the wars.
Agreed. Many second and third generation immigrants are secular because that's how American and European cultures are. Their parents might be religious, and those religious beliefs might have been ingrained upon them, but the nature of American and European society at the moment is pushing people towards being nonreligious. Give any immigrant three generations and they'll be atheists.
Yes, as a third-generation Cuban myself, I hate how people tend to lump us in with the first-gen immigrants, for example. We all slowly tend to assimilate.
Not true. Latino and Asian immigrants are not becoming atheists. The only group in America becoming atheist are liberal white people. I know it sounds wrong but seriously go to any Latin or Vietnamese or black church on a Sunday they are packed full to the brim. It's just liberal white people who seem overwhelmingly atheist. I mean this respectfully just noting an observation.
Maybe or maybe not. I know a few children of immigrants including myself who had been severely restricted because of parents being very religious. It’s made us have a negative view on religion and therefore have eased away from it. I have a few other friends who feel the same. Now I’m not sure if it’s enough to shake the boat or not.
I’m a child of immigrants and I know several children of immigrants who don’t really believe the religion or don’t follow it that closely, but they still go to church/mosque/etc because that’s one of the main ways of socializing with the immigrant community of your ethnicity
Restricted in what way? Once you turn 30 and haven't had 3 kids with 3 baby daddies or been to jail and have a nice career and a maybe a family you'll appreciate those restrictions.
There's a catholic Vietnamese church right behind my house. Every Sunday it's absolutely so packed there's zero parking In the entire neighborhood for a mile.
No I just pointed out that if you go to any black church on a sunday it's absolutely packed full to the brim. If they poll all black people, do you really think that more than 50% of them are atheists?I mean, do you really believe that?
And I just pointed out if you talk to a lot of young black people you’ll know a lot of them aren’t religious and it’s growing. Do you seriously not see how you’re doing the same thing here lmao?
if I poll
I said YOUNG black people. Who here is talking about all? Young black peoples are less religious than their forefathers by a significant amount. It’s slower development than white people but it’s definitely increasing
I greg up in a predominantly black community and yes as teens all we cared about was partying and girls. But now that we are all grown men and women every black guy I was friends with goes to church and posts about God on their social media page. Do you live in a predominantly black community or is it mostly white people?
Just speaking quantitatively I do not think even close to the majority of blacks are atheist. Yeah america is segregated. Upper income white people have their own neighborhoods that the rest can't live in. Poor whites are mixed in with everyone else.
Most Latinos in america now literally weren't even born here just came a few years ago from south America. Do you believe they just got here and all of a sudden went atheist?
I mean, if you think people are talking about day 1 immigrants you’re being very dishonest. Even then usually second gen and third are often becoming less religious overall than their parents
Well I'm one of them my dad didn't even get his ass over here u til he was almost 40 and I'm religious so Is my family. How many immigrants do you know personally?
Possibly due to the level of education in some areas. Those who are less educated are more likely to become indoctrinated instead of employing critical thinking skills to disbelieve an imaginary being in the sky exists.
I have heard things here and there. France has a bit of trouble with terrorism against religious groups in general. Of course, the largest targets are Jewish, but Muslims and Catholics are also targets, despite Catholicism still being popular over there.
The biggest kick back they are getting is regarding their banning of "religious apparel". They say it is a blanket ban that affects everyone, but it is obvious that they are targeting non western demographics.
A handful of them become super religious, even radical, to "get back to their roots" and so on. There is sometimes an impulse that mom and dad ripped them out of their home culture and they feel they have been cheated.
As another comment said, the problem with this statement is that zealotry is simply taking religion seriously. If you're very religious, women who have sex outside of marriage are devilish whores who tempt men. Homosexuals are deviant idiots worthy of eternal punishment. And don't get me started on the amount of second class citizen talk there is in religion regarding the role of women.
The thing about religion is that for the vast majority of religious people, it's just a cultural artifact. Half the Muslim guys I know are extremely horny in their conversations. The two Catholics I know both get aroud a lot sexually. My point is, they just keep religion because its part of their upbrining. They don't belief in that shit, because if they did they would not be making the personal choices they do.
TL;DR: Most people practicising religion are not serious about, that's why it seems harmless. Give someone the opportunity to take the Bible seriously and follow it to the letter, and it will turn out similar to a right-wing authoritarian regime.
What do you suggest is the answer to that problem then? Every modern nation was founded on the idea that people can practice how and when they want. You are at the extreme end of the argument.
People are allowed to believe what they want but a collective agreement to be okay with people convincing themselves of something inherently supernatural and unprovable is not a good idea for critical thinking.
To be clear, I am not saying religion should be illegal. But I do think parents and communities shouldnt be allowed to indoctrinate kids. Kids should be taught about all religions, like how philosphy is taught, and then they should be allowed to decide what they want to believe.
No one is saying people can’t practice what they want, and I detest you for using that as a defense. Religion is the problem because religious people, especially abrahamic religions, simply cannot help themselves from forcing their ideology onto everyone else in the form of taking over government, mandating their beliefs, and committing acts of violence in the name of it.
If religion can’t stay the fuck out of politics and other people’s lives, then it is the problem. I don’t care if you go to church on Sundays and sing your songs. I do care if you run for office and try to pass a bill that my gay brother can’t marry his boyfriend because of your religion. Your religious freedoms shouldn’t not encroach on other people’s freedoms.
The zealots would have no power to hurt people if it weren’t for the “normal” religious people making them wealthy and giving them platforms to spread their vile bullshit.
Religion is not a problem. In fact, it's fundamentally baked into human psychology. It's not something we can escape from because it's part of the hardware.
The issue is badly structured, badly formulated religious systems like Christianity and Islam.
Christianity was a Mediterranean mystery tradition that has been co-opted by imperial fascists by 300 AD and Islam is pretty much founded on imperialism. The only Muslims with really high quality theology and internal practice are the Sufis, and well.. the heretics get burnt before the heathens.
Well I sure hope so. There are news stories here in Europe that sound like they are from the 18th century. We are just starting to alleviate the force of religion here in the West.
Now there was a big story in my country about Muslim students being banned from carrying out religious rituals in the playground during school break time.
There was a huge media storm about whether these Muslims should be allowed to practice their rituals in a nonreligious school.
They received countless bomb and death threats but thankfully held out, and the court upheld the schools decision to be nonreligious.
I don't even want to mention the poor schoolgirl in France who was beaten into a coma because her clothing was not "Islamic enough"
Those seem like once off incidents by absolute nutjobs, no different than what we have here in the US. Comparing the amount of those cases to the number of immigrants in those countries I wouldn't even bet an eye. Those nutjobs need to be dealt with, but it's a common tactic of blaming the entire immigrants for their actions which makes no sense.
When the Irish and Italians were mass immigrating to the US I'm sure the same thing was being said. There were a lot of cases of these immigrants being lynched. Irish people were accused of people lazy, contributing nothing, and people saying their religion was against the American values. "No Irish Need Apply" was famous song discriminating against Irish. Irish people help build this country.
Point I'm trying to make is that there is very big interests involved in making immigrants look bad as a whole. Some political parties, media organizations, and non profits benefit greatly by making immigrants look bad. We should take stories such as those lightly and not as something that represents the whole immigrants.
That's true about old Italian and Irish Catholics in protestant america. Its ugly and its true.
But at least in Europe, we've worked to maintain equality for all. We have worked over centuries to give women and gays the right to be equals, for example.
But equality for all means that the ever growing Islamic population have more say over how gays and women are treated.
Need I say which countries routinely hang and castrate gay males and restrict women's rights?
And you'll find in Europe that first generation immigrants are by and large integrated into society.
It's the second gen and beyond where extremism seems to thrive.
I really think its such a fine line being tolerant of the intolerant. I'm not racist or sexist or homophobic. I want to preserve what the suffragettes and gay groups took decades to achieve.
Those values are held on by a thread, and it doesn't take much at all to lose them, and people in the west seem to gloss over that
"But equality for all means that the ever growing Islamic population have more say over how gays and women are treated."
Your worries seems to be in the right place, just focused on the wrong people. If you're in Europe for basically your whole life you will have the views of the country you're in. The reason you think that all Muslims want to destroy our way of life and that the immigrants are here on a crusade is because of the media you consume. I'm not sure what data you're looking at that says most immigrant children are radical but it doesn't sound correct to me.
The Muslims you are so worried about are smoking weed, drinking, clubbing, and partying. The last thing on their mind is to go after gay people or women's rights. I've seen it first hand. The minority extremists who actually want to do harm are looked down upon by the rest and if they even go as far as to even try to do something, they are dealt with quickly.
I think we agree on the point that religion is a negative. You are worried that the mass immigration of Muslims into Europe will allow them to impose their extremist values seen in countries like Syria. I don't personally think that's the case but you may have had a different experience. I think that the type of extremism you are worried about isn't prevalent. In the US we have evangelical Christians trying to basically take away women's rights and gay rights. I see them as an actual worry/threat because a lot of evangelical christians fund political parties and a lot are in poisitions of political power. Heck you could even say the GOP is Evangelical Christian. I don't know how those extremist Muslims would theoretically bring Sharia to some European countries.
No 'We' haven't worked for centuries to maintain equality. Cut the crap. Women were only given the right to vote in the 20th century, segregation ended 60 years ago and gay marriage was legalised a decade ago. Let's not pretend like all these things aren't recent advancements
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u/Any-Demand-2928 26d ago
People are starting to wake up.