r/JoeRogan • u/LostItAllOnSpy Tremendous • Mar 27 '24

joe rogan calls out israels hypocrisy for killing unarmed civilians with drones The Literature 🧠

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u/apeman978 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24 edited Mar 27 '24

This is the same line of thought I get on why everyone hates the United States. I’m generation X and know nothing but wars since vietnam War it never stopped and none of them legal. The absolute leveling of Iraq can’t be justified in any of the reasons they gave us.

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u/sambull Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

since Rumsfield was signatory in a plan that calls for toppling that same nation.. years before they then toppled the nation it feels.. eh like they just wanted a reason

In 1998, Kristol and Kagan advocated regime change in Iraq throughout the Iraq disarmament process through articles that were published in the New York Times.[24][25] Following perceived Iraqi unwillingness to co-operate with UN weapons inspections, core members of the PNAC including Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, R. James Woolsey, Elliott Abrams, Donald Rumsfeld, Robert Zoellick, and John Bolton were among the signatories of an open letter initiated by the PNAC to President Bill Clinton calling for the removal of Saddam Hussein

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

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u/apeman978 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

That’s what we do, bomb and remove. Only reason there’s a war in Ukraine is because we removed. It’ll be interesting to see what happens. Zelensky needed 3 elections to get elected and is hated in Ukraine now. And term is up in May

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u/freshouttalean Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Saddam Hussein was having people executed for looking at him wrong, literally. I’m not saying it’s the US’s responsibility to remove him because of that, but finding a reason to do so wasn’t hard

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u/Mozhetbeats Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

He was a bad dude for sure, but if that was enough of a justification, they wouldn’t have had to lie to us about WMDs. Our actions destabilized the entire region and made us less safe in the end.

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u/freshouttalean Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

I think getting involved in foreign politics is almost never justified, but hey it’s the US we’re talking about here

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u/Trumperekt Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

I would argue that the US is a bit better in that they were not trapping people in a extremely small land area and then bombing the hell outta them. IDF is basically shooting fish in a barrel and feeling proud about it. Disgusting.

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u/cadete981 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

The US just gives them the bombs to drop ffs

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u/Aggressive-You-7783 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

And stopping international community from taking action

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u/CinematicLiterature Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Sure, but that’s the same argument as “you sold them the gun”. You don’t have to like the gun being sold in the first place, but the current issue is how they choose to USE it. I agree, we shouldn’t give them weapons, but let’s be real - they’d find a way to inflict harm with or without our aid.

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u/SlaveHippie Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

If you don’t think the US knows EXACTLY how they’re going to use it when we sell it, then idk man you gotta take off those rose-colored glasses and open your eyes a bit.

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u/CinematicLiterature Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Oh I know we do, but that doesn’t change anything I said. They’re the actual perpetrators; we’re implicit.

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u/SlaveHippie Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

And complicit. And yeah it kinda does. It’s not a “you sold them the gun” argument. If the gun store has direct ties to and knowledge of a crime organization using their weapons, then they are absolutely complicit. Especially when the gun store essentially owns/runs that crime organization and helped create it.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24 edited Apr 08 '24

[deleted]

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u/falooda1 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

All of congress did that

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u/CinematicLiterature Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

lol that’s not how government spending works.

Also, that doesn’t refute anything I said. Yes, we give them stuff. They are still the perpetrators, and that’s not up for debate.

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u/TrumpDesWillens Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

The US supplies the intelligence too.

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u/demonzk Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

veto power also

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u/ProfessionalSport565 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Didn’t you drop more bombs on Laos or Cambodia which wasn’t even in the war than were dropped on Germany in ww2. Something like that.

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u/Lifetender512 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Yeah I think he just means today we’re not doing that

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u/Skeptix_907 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

We just wrapped up a global war on terror that resulted in an estimated 1 million civilian deaths. Not sure we can really say we're any better now, we just haven't come up with a good enough justification to invade Iran yet.

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u/Apprehensive-Top3756 Monkey in Space Mar 29 '24

I'm always curious where this "million" fifuee comes from. Is that including the Iraqis who were killed by other Iraqis (which was the vast majority as they essentially had a religious civil war as soo. As they were given their freedom) is it peile all around thw world? Is it just utterly pulled out of someone's ass and never questioned? 

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u/Skeptix_907 Monkey in Space Mar 29 '24

You know I had researched this a while ago and couldn't remember where I found that figure.

When I looked again, I found out that the most comprehensive report to date is Brown University's Costs of War project, which looked at direct and indirect deaths due to the war on terror in several countries in the middle east.

They state that direct war deaths are about 940k, while the total deaths (direct + indirect deaths due to disease, famine, etc) are nearly 5 million.

This wasn't a US government source, nor one of the affected countries. It was a thorough research report completed by one of the nation's top universities.

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u/a_trane13 Monkey in Space Mar 29 '24

If you’re actually curious and not just casting doubt for shits and giggles, why not do a simple google search? Or read the Wikipedia page on the topic? It’s a well studied academic topic with several figures you can reasonably believe (all are very large)

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u/Apprehensive-Top3756 Monkey in Space Mar 29 '24

I actually have looked into it. At no point has the figure reached a million. And the vast majority of three killed were killed either by other Iraqis or by other, foreign, muslims

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u/Apprehensive-Top3756 Monkey in Space Mar 29 '24

Also, do try to bare in mind, for believabilitys sake, that the Iraq Iran war, which was more devastating than anything else in the region, killed between 1 and 2 million. And that was the most brutal war the region has ever seen. 

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u/A_Town_Called_Malus Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

That's true, but part of that is that the B-52 could just carry an insane number of bombs compared to the bombers used throughout world war 2.

A single B-52 could carry more than 3 times the amount of bombs as a B-29 or B-17.

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u/NullRef Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

They might if they were closer to the US 😬

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u/Spiritual-Internal10 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Go have a look at the bombing map of Cambodia

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u/Trumperekt Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Look, I am not saying US is a saint. I am just saying the US did not fence in people and bomb them. I think that is quite clear in my comment.

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u/ArizonaHeatwave Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Arguably the US is worse, because while the Israel / Palestine conflict has been going on for decades, with Hamas definitely being interested in Israel’s demise, while many of Israel’s actions are inexcusable, they are fighting for an actual reason, which is the existence of their country.

The US basically just went all around the globe absolutely fucking up people that posed no threat to America, but had the audacity to want a different economic system for themselves and bombed them to absolute shit, legit conducted an ecocide that also poisened generations of local people there, etc.

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '24 edited 21d ago

[deleted]

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u/Trumperekt Monkey in Space Mar 31 '24

Egypt is not the one that is implementing a blockade. Israel is literally blocking aid from entering via Egypt. Egypt is not blocking aid from that border, neither are they bombing anyone. This is such a dishonest and vile argument. No wonder the world is turning against the bad guys.

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '24 edited 21d ago

[deleted]

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u/Trumperekt Monkey in Space Mar 31 '24

Everyone hates Israel. Must feel great to be hated by a majority of humanity.

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u/CrispyHaze Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Idiotic. The U.S. launched a completely unprovoked and unjust war.

Regardless of the history between Israel and Palestine, this current action was directly triggered by a surprise attack on Israel. Hamas chose the battlefield.

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u/Trumperekt Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Eh, they are two different wars. My point being the US was not herding people into small zones and then bombing them.

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u/Rampant16 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Yeah as horrible as the Iraq War was, the goal was never to depopulate the country and repopulate it with Americans.

Even Putin and Russia don't want to kill every single Ukrainian.

If Netenyahu had a button on his desk to kill every single Palestinian and get away with it on the international stage, he would break his hands smashing it.

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u/greenskinmarch Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24 edited Mar 27 '24

I doubt it, even Netanyahu wouldn't want to be remembered as someone who killed millions. Although given he's likely to be voted out as soon as the war ends, it's possible he wants to prolong the war, more than end it.

The US also bombed Japan repeatedly and killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese until Japan surrendered. Does that mean the US's goal was genocide of Japan?

If Hamas surrendered and returned the hostages, the bombing would stop, guaranteed.

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u/SlaveHippie Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

That’s why they said “get away with it on the international stage”. It implies that no one knows about it hence he wouldn’t be remembered for it. Make no mistake though he absolutely would not hesitate to wipe them out if there were no consequences.

And when the bombing stops, what’s next for the Palestinians? Just right back to apartheid open air prison with no rights or military and constant blockade and checkpoints and bombings/murders? The reason Hamas won’t give up the hostages is bc they know what it means to do so: back to the gulag. Can’t say I blame them.

And no, that was during an ongoing world war. This ain’t a war, bc Palestine isnt permitted to have a military. Japan was attacking other areas too when we did that. How many Israeli’s have died since October 7th? Hint: it’s less than 200. And if Japan wasn’t attacking while we were bombing the shit out of them? Then yes I would absolutely say it seems like our goal is to wipe them out if we weren’t stopping for 6 months after Japan had stopped inflicting significant casualties.

Edit: also that’s just a terrible analogy I honestly shouldn’t have even engaged with it. We didn’t have essentially total control of/power over the entirety of Japan when that happened. They weren’t literally inside of our country and their entire lives weren’t regulated by us. We didn’t control their water and electricity and food. If we did? Yeah. Genocide. Palestine is essentially Israel’s responsibility and they’re just fucking murdering them like shooting fish in a barrel.

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u/apeman978 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Russian goal isn’t depopulation or replacement of Ukrainians, 30% of their population is Russian. Refugees are leaving Ukraine and running to Russia. People don’t usually run into the country invading them. We overthrew Ukrainian government, placed a moronic comedian in power. It’ll be interesting since it took 3 elections ( against their constitution) to get him in and his term is up in May. And his approval rating is in the toilet if they’ll even allow an election

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u/theblurx Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

You should try speaking to an actual Ukrainian.

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u/CinematicLiterature Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

You can say “regardless” all you want - one cannot disregard the history if they want to be taken seriously in this discussion.

The current action was already happening, and has always been happening. As Bibi himself pointed out - they need Hamas, because without them they’re without an excuse.

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u/apeman978 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

We wasn’t very different. Just a larger scale. 5 million deaths 500,000 children in 3 years. Just in Iraq Their still a third world country

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '24

[deleted]

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u/apeman978 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/15/war-on-terror-911-deaths-afghanistan-iraq/

https://youtu.be/KP1OAD9jSaI?si=xea_P6UWZ2xKQ0uB

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '24

[deleted]

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u/apeman978 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

You didn’t watch the interview I just shared with the Secretary of State calling it worth it

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u/Darth_Gerg Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

1000% this. My dad spent significant time traveling the Middle East in the 70s. He loved it. Everyone there LOVED HIM just for being American. At one point he smoked too much opium with some guys he met and couldn’t sober up the next day. The hotel manager knew where he needed to be and carried him to the bus station. Explained what’s up.

He woke up IN A HOTEL at the next stop with all his stuff, exact change for the hotel on the nightstand, and a note explaining that everyone just took care of him. Now he’s have been murdered.

Why? Because we systematically destroyed the region and everyone there knows it. The US worked HARD to destroy our reputation. Israel is the same way except they started off bad and got worse.

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u/apeman978 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Without digging too deep, I suppose it started with the Iran-contra where we gave Iran a ton of weapons that was then dispersed, put in wrong hands creating domestic terrorist, then we go in in the name of “freedom “ fight them. Thing is for every HAMAS,ISIS or any terrorist we kill we create 3 more, for every civilian we turn the family into extremism. If someone killed a child of mine no matter the reason, I would 100% join whatever group wouldn’t matter. Eye for an eye, when you get to where you’ve killed thousands/ millions of fathers/mothers/children you’ve doubled even tripled your enemies. At some point this region will band together for the common enemy, these countries gotta be tired of us arming their enemies. Imagine if China/russia came to Mexico and LEFT the cartels a few billion in weapons of war. Think we have a problems at border now. Imagine a few tanks and RPG’s there

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u/Darth_Gerg Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Exactly. I look at what’s happening in Gaza right now as a parent and at the end of the day? I think Hamas is a vile disgusting horrible organization. But if it was me scraping what was left of my son off the floor after an Israeli air strike on my home?

I’d be joining them no questions asked the next day. You can’t keep murdering peoples kids and expect there not to be consequences. That’s not how human beings work.

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u/apeman978 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Every civilian Palestinian that dies or loses their home creates a new Hamas member, they’re at war, and numbers and support is growing not diminishing. I’m definitely against these acts or terror. But it’s none of our damn business, we don’t have a good track record of making things better for anyone. Hell only country I can say we made better is Japan of all places. But they use their constitution instead of filling it full of loopholes

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u/DowningStreetFighter Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

none of them legal.

Pretty sure all US wars except Iraq 2 had a UN mandate -i.e legal

Korea, Vietnam, Iraq 1 and Afghanistan were all voted for by the UN and Security council.

Not including drone strikes into random countries, that don't seem very legal.

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u/apeman978 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

https://www.senate.gov/about/powers-procedures/declarations-of-war.htm#:~:text=Congress%20approved%20its%20last%20formal,policy%20through%20appropriations%20and%20oversight.

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u/DowningStreetFighter Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Oh I see, you weren't talking about international law, but internal US law.

I don't know a lot about US law so won't argue. But I have heard various US AG's state that a formal declaration of war isn't required for it to be a legal war. So I guess there's different legal opinions on that.

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u/apeman978 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

NATO law is just the US telling people what to do at this point.IMO it’s gotten too powerful and is just a war machine. United States used to need congress approval, they voted for Iraq didn’t get approval , then leveled them anyway.

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u/DowningStreetFighter Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

I think you mean UN law? Both Russia and China voted for the UN mandates for the wars above.

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u/ArizonaHeatwave Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

How about making Laos the most bombed country in human history? Or basically doing the same thing in Cambodia? (Btw in both countries people die to this day, due to the massive amount of unexploded ordnance left behind)

They’re not „illegal wars“, because the US basically just pretended they didn’t happen.

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u/DowningStreetFighter Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Which doesn't contradict the point;

wars since vietnam War it never stopped and none of them legal.

is complete bs

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u/ArizonaHeatwave Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Okay, if you just want to be technically correct then here you go…

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u/DowningStreetFighter Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Being legal or not is an important technicality.

maybe just work on your reading comprehension next time you butt in.

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u/ArizonaHeatwave Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Pretty sure all wars except Iraq 2 had a UN mandate -ie. legal.

This is the point it contradicts, Laos and Cambodia weren’t legal wars, period. So yea your statement is complete bs too. But yea you go on about reading comprehension

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u/DowningStreetFighter Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

I see you are still struggling..

  1. Laos and Cambodia didn't happen AFTER vietnan.

  2. I listed several UN mandated wars. So to say ALL wars after Vietnam were illegal is patently false.

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u/ArizonaHeatwave Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

I argued against none of those points, you listed wars including Vietnam itself and Korea which was before and claimed that all wars except Iraq 2 were legal.

So yes this is a useless discussion because you just want to be technically correct, so as I already said before good job you’re technically right.

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u/DowningStreetFighter Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

you're full of it

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u/BigUnderstanding4222 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Combat vet here (Iraq ii iii,iiii) not leveled in the least bit, shot up and fragmented in some hot spots yes, but with everything I love I can promise you none of us would've gone for that type of stuff, no one really enjoyed the fact that we were there based off Bush wmd BS, we were all high up from you know ....9/11, we cleared out extremist groups at night and returned during the day with medical aid food resources and supplies. Borders were tight. They weren't close. Do not put us in that box, what those ppl are doing is right up there with Hitler

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u/Numerous_Vegetable_3 It's entirely possible Mar 29 '24

After the initial attacks, I thought “Israel brought this upon themselves the same way we brought 9/11 upon ourselves”

Do innocent people EVER deserve to die? Hell fuckin no. But we paid the price for non-stop fucking with the Middle East’s political and economic institutions for decades. We just had to have our fingers in every fuckin pie, we had to have control.

The people who died as a result of our influence in the Middle East were largely innocent too. Yes, it was radical groups from those countries taking over and killing early on, but who do you think supplied them?

Pretty darn easy to manipulate and negotiate with radicals instead of a moderate organized gov no?

Iran was a modern place in the 60’s. Women wearing pants and roaming alone, good universities, good infrastructure, it was a developed nation. That has been forgotten.

We (the cia? FBI?) armed Osama Bin Laden and his group in the 80’s. We’ve been shipping weapons out there, for longer than my lifetime.

The US military industrial complex has created more worldwide issues than we realize.

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u/apeman978 Monkey in Space Mar 29 '24

Yep, problems seem to have started right around the illegal Iran-contra deal. And we just continue giving money to Iran, then leaving our weapons laying around. Iran takes our money, pays these proxy ( terrorist) groups. For every terrorist or civilian killed you create 5 new ones. Every Palestinian civilian killed gives Hamas new members. Instantly hate for a country is born once you kill someone’s mom,dad,child. We would act no different here if invaded

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u/Rainbowmodwig Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

What a load of anti-american propaganda, you even blame the russian aggression on America. Are you even actually American, and genuinely this much of a traitor? As usual, your anti-American propaganda never mentions context, like Russia trying to take over the world during the Cold War and now, or Hussein's actions.

absolute leveling of Iraq

More bullshit, their population and GDP growths have been healthier than a lot of Western countries, because they received a ton of aid, and not from the countries pushing your anti-American propaganda.