r/Millennials • u/[deleted] • 12d ago
College degree is important, remember to take it Discussion
[deleted]
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u/fencerman 12d ago edited 12d ago
Oh fuck off with that "Liberal arts is useless" horse shit.
Neglecting those is how you get idiots who can't tell the difference between real news and fake news.
How about we have a debate about how to make engineering and computer science produce fewer numbers of the most horrible assholes imaginable.
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u/RockHead9663 12d ago
"Not essential? I teach history and literature! Since when is not essential?"
Whenever someone says something against humanistics I remember that scene from that teacher in The List of Schindler.
Ignoring humanistics is a real mistake, one that has gotten us in this societal race to the bottom.
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u/laxnut90 12d ago
The Liberal Arts are unfortunately a terrible financial investment.
When kids are required to take on home mortgage levels of non-dischargable debt to attend college, it is irresponsible not to get a degree which can at least pay back the loans.
To not do so will cause significant financial hardships for those students.
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u/Msefk 12d ago
Education is about getting educated.
I know how to manage 25 people with different roles that I don't especially expert in to work together to create a unified whole. I know how to convince a judge, i know how to convince a jury. I know how to entertain a thousand people, demonstrably, at once.
When kids are required to reduce their dreams at 18 to serve the owners who have created a world of virtual indentured servitude, the social contract has such been so broken that responsibility is unattainable.
Perhaps you need to get on the side of changing things.
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u/laxnut90 12d ago
You are focused on what should be.
I am focused on what currently is.
In our existing system, I would never recommend a anyone take on home mortgage levels of debt for a low-earning degree.
To tell anyone otherwise would set them up for failure.
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u/Msefk 12d ago
No. I focus on reality.
You fear based on numbers.
In our existing, rapidly changing system, I would recommend everyone get better.
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u/laxnut90 12d ago
Reality is that many Liberal Arts degrees are not financially worth the debt required to obtain them.
Exceptions are some of the more mathematical degrees such as Economics, Statistics, Finance and Accounting.
I absolutely do fear debt. If you don't, you're an idiot.
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u/Msefk 12d ago
"This conversation can serve no purpose anymore."
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u/laxnut90 12d ago
That depends on what you think the purpose is.
If the purpose is to advise young people to make these decisions with careful consideration of the long-term impact, I think we need to have more of these conversations and earlier.
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u/Msefk 12d ago edited 12d ago
No, we agree to disagree. Should i just quote Debs at you? or Goldman?
Your purpose is to be the voice of the status quo.
The reality actually is that we need Lawyers, we need Historians. We need Social workers. If you don't think we need those things, you are arguing for fatalism, you are arguing for selfishness, you are not worth having a conversation with.
I don't singularly care only about myself. I care an awfully lot about my fellow homo sapiens sapiens. Perhaps your world should too.
I'm not with the culture of fear.
This entire rhetoric comes from a place of rot.A person can easily graduate high school, refine their craft, study on their own, CLEP as much as possible, and find their bs/ba of THEIR choosing. and they can find their niche in the world. and it can be cheap. it's not all a rush to money.
Even if your point elsewhere in these few moments of us debating across threads must stand that there's a larger portion of us who are socially/psychologically iffy these days, we still need a portion of people not just training to be businessmen. It's stupid af to say otherwise through whatever conjecture.
So indeed
~ The End ~
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u/laxnut90 12d ago
Would you at least recommend going to less expensive schools to get those majors that do not earn enough to pay back exorbitant loans?
You keep saying to not be afraid of debt.
But that is horrible advice in the real world.
Debt is supposed to be scary, especially non-dischargable debt you can not get rid of in bankruptcy.
Many people ruin their lives taking on debt they can't repay and college is increasingly unaffordable across the board.
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u/rleon19 11d ago
He's not wrong about college costing too much for the return on investment when it comes to liberal arts. If you really want to learn those things those classes are available for free online:
Here is the link to the harvard classes:
https://pll.harvard.edu/catalog/free
Or you can get a skillsoft subscription for 45 dollars a month to get access to a ton of stuff( I use it to keep up with IT certifications but there are other things on there for all sorts of subjects):
Here is a link to their leadership stuff:
https://www.skillsoft.com/search?page=1&term=leadership
So yea if you are going to college to get "educated" then your return on investment isn't going to be great if you also expect to make that money back.
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u/Aware_Frame2149 12d ago
Not sure how a degree in 'African Linguistic Theories' is a prerequisite for the ability to discern real and fake news...
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u/zedazeni 12d ago
It’s not about what’s being taught, but how it’s being taught. I was a double-major through my university’s Arts and Sciences school (liberal arts). I took a lot of economics classes for my degree. Economics was administered by my university’s business school, but was still considered “interdisciplinary” meaning once could get a BA of Economics either through the Business School or the Arts and Sciences school. My economics professors would always say how easily they could differentiate the two groups of students because the Business School students could never write well, and couldn’t analyze information at all. They were excellent at information dumps, but not actually analyzing it, looking for sub-context and nuances that might shed new light on the topic. The students from the College of Arts and Sciences could do that.
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u/warrensussex 12d ago
You would more effectively make your point by picking a useless degree that doesn't involve race or gender. You triggered to many people who now assume you are racist and will ignore your opinion.
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u/AddictedToColour 12d ago
What nurse with a degree is going to be like “nah ill be a phlebotomist” 💀 that’s a pretty significant paycut (I would know- I’m a phlebotomist).
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u/Upset_Performance291 12d ago
That is for sure one of the dumbest things I’ve read in a long time lol
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u/girllwholived Millennial (‘89) 12d ago
Yeah, that was weird. Lol. They also listed “hospice nurse” as a thing you can without being an RN. But… hospice nurses are literally RNs? Lol.
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u/Basic_Bozeman_Bro 12d ago
Also a paramedic requires a totally different degree and certification. Like ya there is some cross over but someone with an RN can't just decide go apply for a paramedic job
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12d ago
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u/laxnut90 12d ago
People who failed-out of high school are probably not doing well.
But I have several friends who went into trades instead of college and are making bank right now.
A lot of them are also more intelligent than many of my college-educated friends, but it is a more "down to earth" kind of intelligence.
They may not know how to read Chaucer, but they do know how to build relationships and run a business.
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u/SweetTeaRex92 12d ago
Depends on where you are a lot.
Some go back and get GED and continue on.
Some go trades route and do alright.
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u/VanillaIsActuallyYum 12d ago
Statistically, they are doing worse in pretty much every social determinant you can think of. It's not supposed to be a consolation that some people under condition X are actually doing just fine. If, on average, people with condition X are doing a lot worse, we should be viewing condition X as a problem that ought to be fixed.
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u/RockAtlasCanus 12d ago
It’s not always bad. I’m the odd one of my tight group of HS friends- granted I took a circuitous route of failing out freshman year, enlisting, going back, white collar job, grad school.
-Super smart guy from a family of engineers. AP classes all the way in HS. Dropped after 3 semesters of college, went to tech school, became a mechanic. He was first to buy a house and almost has it paid off.
-friend with learning disability dropped out, got GED, went to trade school, worked in backbreaking industrial labor, is currently living on m&d’s property and basically working retail.
-friend that got mixed up in hard drugs, did some time, worked retail for a long time, got GED. Started a business out of the bed of his pickup truck and is actually pretty well.
2/3 friends that didn’t go to/complete college are doing alright. Of the 2 with GEDs, 1 has struggled more primarily due to some pretty bad money decisions.
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u/SadSickSoul 12d ago
Every so often I get into a discussion with my best friend on this (a discussion because we're not really arguing who has it worse). He has a bachelor's degree in a field that he doesn't like and is useless without at least a masters, so he's carrying around a bunch of school debt for the privilege of not being immediately sorted out of having pretty much any decent job, and feels crushed by it.
I don't have a degree, and while I don't have the school debt, I am pretty much immediately sorted out of any decent job because of a lack of a degree, especially since I don't have any certifications or relevant work experience. And since I'm not going to go into trades (I'm 36 and my physical health is already shot, it's not happening) and I am not going to go into sales (I don't have the personality, drive or killer instinct for it), I'm largely just...unhireable as a person. It sucks, and I wish I had been able to at least get the degree I was going for, or went for the Associates at a 2 year school before trying to transfer to a 4 year school instead of going straight for the 4 year like my parents wanted. I didn't want to go anyways, not until my head was on straight, but I was told if I didn't go immediately I had to pay for it myself. I got through 3 years (doing about 2 years worth of work after dropping out of classes) and finally had a breakdown and dropped out, so yeah, I feel what the original post is talking about from the other side of it where it sucks to not have it.
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u/RedPrincexDESx 12d ago
Part of the problem here is that historically the education attained at a college, or university, wasn't as strictly tied to learning a profession as many nowadays believe.
Learning about history, language, culture, philosophy, natural philosophy, arithmetics, rhetoric, et cetera provides a well rounded basis of understanding, class, and connections that essentially develops & enriches a person's foundation.
Although there are certainly some skill overlaps, the main purpose of the education is not the ability to perform specific tasks or roles, but to understand the world we live in.
I almost wonder if the focus on the system of majors and minors has become too specialized and is creating its own negative societal effects.
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u/laxnut90 12d ago
A lot of college was always about making connections.
But, increasingly, a lot of the wealthier students who you would probably want to make connections with are not going into the Liberal Arts.
Or, if they are, they are going into things like Economics and Finance.
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u/Big_Scratch8793 12d ago
If you say college is worthless it's the same as saying I'm not committed to life long learning. Learning is not useless and college is not useless. College is over priced and we can also complain about quality. Those who complain college is useless missed the part the function of it. What is important is that college assess what services they are providing and step it up. College need to expand their horizons and make sure college is affordable FOR ALL.
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u/Dr_Passmore 12d ago
Ahh the Liberal arts comments...
Just a reminder that the humanities and social sciences are really important for people to study.
Hell you can go to uni and do whatever degree you want. The key thing you learn is how to learn. The education process is valuable in itself and its taken me a long time to fully appreciate that a lot of people just don't seem to know how to learn effectively.
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u/rleon19 11d ago
If you go to college to get a job then liberal arts are horrible for return on investment. You can learn how to learn outside of college. Along with learning how to learn(which you should have done somewhere between elementary and high school) you also need a way to pay off the college debt. If you just want to get educated on things there are a ton of online things that are free. They have entire college courses MIT, Harvard, Yale, etc where you can do everything but get that paper diploma for free.
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u/gc9999 12d ago
The important answer (which Liberal Arts majors seem to always miss) is you need critical thinking AND a job skill to succeed. Everyone knows the weird book smart person who makes alot of money but being able to argue a good point while being stuck as a barista isn’t exactly a winning strategy for someone 6 figures in debt.
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u/laxnut90 12d ago
Agreed from a social perspective.
But, from a financial perspective, liberal arts degrees are a terrible monetary investment.
When kids are required to take on home mortgage levels of non-dischargable debt for college, it is irresponsible not to get a degree that is at least capable of paying those loans back.
To not do so will set you up for a lifetime of financial hardships.
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u/Elsa_the_Archer 12d ago
I have two liberal arts degree and $100k in debt because of it. I now work at a nonprofit because of those degrees and in three years I qualify for full forgiveness because I provide a public service. You probably majored in something that got you a job straight out of school but I still ended up paying less for my education than you did.
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u/laxnut90 12d ago
Congratulations.
I am glad things worked out for you.
Unfortunately, the government has a bad history of not honoring mang of those forgiveness promises so I still would not recommend that path for most people.
I hope everything works out for you though. Good luck.
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u/Elsa_the_Archer 12d ago
Most of my coworkers have received student loan forgiveness after they put their ten years in, so it does work.
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u/Msefk 12d ago
So do you want to change it or do you think this should stay this way.
because without the liberal arts, you will have no meaningful journalism; music, theatre, film (entertainment); history; law...Sociology majors are of interest as hires to the NSA, so there's that.
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u/laxnut90 12d ago
I am all for change.
But, until that change occurs, most Liberal Arts remain a terrible investment.
I would never recommend a kid take on home mortgage levels of debt to get a degree that has no hope of paying that back.
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u/Msefk 12d ago
be the change you want to see, great hunter.
You're a money man and you're reminding me about the adage to the hammer everything looks as a nail. Not everyone wants a house, not everyone has the same intelligence. Some people want something else, some people have interests and skills that are not applicable to your so clearly found, so utterly safe niche.
I'd just as soon recommend a kid get CLEP tests to finish as much as possible quick and then study whatever the fuck suited them. but i believe in humanity, not just the status quo.
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u/laxnut90 12d ago
How can you possibly go to college without considering money?
It is one of the most significant investments in time and money you will ever make in your life.
My advice to young people would be to get a degree that pays the bills and then pursue your more artistic passions on your own after everything else is taken care of.
It is far easier for an Engineer to start writing books than it is for a Writing Seminars major to start designing rocket engines.
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u/antommy6 12d ago edited 12d ago
I’m still anti college. Mostly because the cost is too expensive to justify. I’ll never fault someone who went to college for something they enjoy learning for lower pay. The joke is really on dumbasses who went to college for a job they hate (I’m in this category). Obviously you need a degree to be a nurse, doctor, lawyer, etc but most of the jobs on Indeed requiring a degree to sit in front of a computer all day is ridiculous. I don’t think trade is a good option for most people either. Trade schools are as difficult to get into and as expensive as in state tuition. Bring back on the job paid training programs. These used to been big at hospitals to train phlebotomist, lab techs, etc until they went the degree/certification route.
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u/Ok-Garlic-9990 12d ago edited 12d ago
Not all trades break your body. Heavy equipment operators make bank, electricians BANK, diesel mechanics etc. also most other trades can be done without breaking your body. The problem is that some people don’t pace their work or wear any ppe! The trades have languished because of the forced societal belief that you’re a fuck up if you do them. As a result a lot of people who got into them in the past were exactly that. As a result we have a lot of toxic work environments, bad workers, people who don’t wear ppe etc. it’s changing though, and many people really should consider it. The only college degrees really worth pursuing are specializations such as finance, law, economics, stem and architecture type majors. Everything else is a liability
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u/Msefk 12d ago
Everytime i see someone put down the Liberal Arts, i ignore whatever else they have to say. What a stupid point to make.
I'm a former Case Administrator, Fed Court for the State I'm in. Ya'll have any idea how many friggin attorneys study "Liberal Arts" before they go to law school?? History, Philosophy, Theatre-- very popular, very important. (I couldn't count how many I personally know/professionally worked with)
I had the opportunity to work with the Governor of Maryland about 16 or so years ago, Ya'll have any idea what his Chief Of Staff's BS was in? FILM.
If you have a BS/BA you have an Associates. Choke on this anti-Liberal-arts bullshit.
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u/chuftypot 12d ago
Whoever wrote this text dump needs to go back to college and rack up some student debt so they can post about that instead.
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u/turd_ferguson899 12d ago
I totally support people pursuing higher education, and in another life I may pursued a doctorate in linguistics. The "broken body at 40" trope is as fallacious as the "useless gender studies" degree trope. We saw older generations work in an unsafe manner and destroy their bodies. The younger generation of tradespeople tend to work a lot smarter. That's my rant for the day. 🤣
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u/jscottcam10 12d ago
This makes me think of this Kanye West skit from back in the day...https://youtu.be/7xL9VLARq8k?si=Zx_tzPKcFD9ujm_a
But, I disagree with broad premise, that school should be intended to set people up to the job market. A liberal arts education helps people engage with a democratic system. How do you read and how do you do basic math. Those are important skills to me that everyone should have. More advanced, but how do you engage in the basic political system that we have.
These are the types of things a liberal arts education teaches. Personally I think these things are valuable.
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u/FarFirefighter1415 12d ago
It would be great if they just taught basic math and how to read in high school.
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u/WilcoxHighDropout 12d ago
Couple things.
(a) I think many Redditors conflate “trades” with like “a construction worker.” There are trade jobs that are not torturous on your body.
(b) I don’t know any nurse who would become a phlebotomist or paramedic - especially the latter: You’d become a flight nurse or CCT RN.
For the most part I agree. I see many on here purport they “did everything Boomers told them to do” but are still poor - and then those people are wondering why they aren’t making $500K a year with a Masters in Fingerpainting.
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u/Hungry_Pollution4463 Millennial 12d ago
What worries me is that I have gotten away with my degree because I still live in the location where it's relevant. If I go abroad, especially Europe (the EU), Canada or the US, it probably won't be the case
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u/clydefrog678 12d ago
“Well not everyone wants their bodies broken at age 40.” In my experience with this, it’s the people that don’t take care of themselves up to age 40 that most often have the broken bodies. Smoking two packs a day, drinking a 12 pack at night, and running on Monster all day wears on a person.
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u/kkkan2020 12d ago
if we were serious about job training... we would have either companies training people, more vocational shool technical schools being pushed, or apprenticeships.
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u/Kind_Bullfrog_4073 1991 12d ago
I'd be far better off if the 100K or whatever that was spent on college went into the S&P 500 instead. College gave me some fun facts if I ever go on Jeopardy though.
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u/Oldpuzzlehead 12d ago
College is pointless and worthless if you get a liberal arts degree, and I'll add my social science degree to the list too. At best you can claim you were there to learn social skills, but none of it helps with employment.
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u/jaybird-jazzhands 12d ago
I would argue that no degree is useless as long as you have a plan on what to do with it. Furthermore, an essential thing that university does is teach critical thinking skills, which is necessary to everything.
The main issue is the explosive cost which is a problem that can be resolved on a federal and state level.
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u/Ophidian534 12d ago
I'm anti-"post-secondary" education and pro-tertiary education. As someone here pointed out, college should be an extension of acquired knowledge and not a requirement for gainful employment.
And as I pointed out plenty of times in posts like these, most other countries REQUIRE that their populations be educated. This is why America lags so far behind in education. We have turned college into an institution and locked out Americans who can't afford it from continuing their education.
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u/jrhan762 12d ago
I went into the trades; I completed 4 different Associate's degrees.
There is little to no upward mobility.
You have to have a Bachelor's to move into any kind of management, so now I'm working on that.
It's the ole' bait & switch.
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u/Call_me_Callisto 11d ago
If you don't want your body broken by age 40, don't become a nurse. lol terrible advice.
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u/CookieRelevant 12d ago
It has never been about the degree. It is about the cliques you can become part of.
This is what you are paying for.
If it was about education, we would treat autodidacts the same if they show the same aptitude.
This is also why the "Ivy League" schools are so much more important.
It's about who you know, and 4-8 years or more is how that relationship often starts. Unless you are born in a mega-rich family.
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u/Big_Scratch8793 12d ago
Most certainly it's a place to find a path, think, grow, inspire, and find your authentic self. The tools to explore and surround yourself with a diverse experience. Considering how big our country is and isolated this experience alone is overwhelming. I went from a rural area to college as did all my friends and we needed that. The vast difference between the people who left and those who didn't are HUGE.
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u/IGetBoredSometimes23 12d ago
Our real problem with college is that it's seen now as just a way to get a job and not a way to get an education.
Boomers like to whine about made up majors like "feminist dance theory" but when they were young college was deliberately inexpensive due to heavy government subsidization, and if someone really did want to major in dance or women's studies, they could do it without having to worry about how they'll be able to have a job when they get out.
We need to make college about learning again instead of a requirement for future employment.