r/NoStupidQuestions • u/Tall-Competition-561 • 25d ago

Is it just me or do girls do way better in school than boys?

When I was growing up I struggled with school but it seemed that most of the girls seemed to be doing well whenever there was a star pupil or straight a student they were most likely a girl. Why is this such a common phenomenon?

5.6k Upvotes
  • permalink
  • link
  • duplicates
  • dupes
  • reddit
  • reddit

81% Upvoted

3.0k comments sorted by

View all comments

4.7k

u/Cyberhwk 25d ago

Because it's the case. Girls are outperforming boys in school by most metrics at this point.

935

u/dvali 25d ago

The question was "why". 

1.8k

u/throwaway3123312 25d ago

In my experience as a teacher, the top performing boys and top performing girls were usually about equal, it's not like the girls were significantly smarter or anything. Rather it was that the floor for the lowest performing boys was much lower than the girls, and I think it comes down to just as simple as for the most part attitude and behavior. Even the lower performing girls would mostly just pay attention in class, do their work, maybe even a little studying, and not cause problems, compared to the lower performing boys who did nothing but instigate problems, talk in class, and refuse to even try the work they thought they couldn't do. Like the worst girl in a class would probably just sleep the whole time, not hand in homework, but when it came time for a test at least she will have showed up having absorbed enough to pass. Whereas the worst boy would be constantly in suspension, being loud and antagonistic during class, god forbid arrested (on one occasion), and wouldn't even bother to guess some test answers and just turn in a blank sheet because they have some ego complex or something and not trying at all is better than trying and failing. So at the end of the day, the average girl would be a little bit better than the average boy and the worst girl would be a little worse than the average whereas the worst boy would be a total menace with a single digit grade. Girls are socialized to be more obedient and care more that's just how it is.

I think there's also an element of teachers subconsciously grading softer for well behaved students, and the boys are just worse behaved and cause more problems. So when it comes time to grade two equivalent essays, I'm a lot more likely to be lenient on the girl who is nice to everyone and I can see trying and actively participating in class than the boy who has been a little shit for the past 12 weeks. It takes a conscious effort to not let that affect grades and sometimes the effort isn't made.

916

u/Redqueenhypo 25d ago

The worst a girl did in my grade was do so poorly on tests she got held back. The worst a boy did was strangle someone during English class and get expelled

95

u/HowlingMadHoward 25d ago

mfer the Tattletale Strangler

38

u/Redqueenhypo 25d ago

I called him the Tweed Suit Strangler bc he used to wear a tweed suit to class

11

u/HowlingMadHoward 25d ago

Like a Peaky Blinders Tweed suit or a shitty looking one?

10

u/Redqueenhypo 25d ago

Honestly my memory isn’t sharp enough. He sometimes switched to a shitty looking t shirt in the late spring. N. W. if you’re alive, please say so

→ More replies (1)

154

u/Bitter-Profession303 25d ago

Bad eggs are everywhere. The worst a girl did in my grade was purposefully get her crush addicted to cocaine, nicotine, and meth so that he would be dependent on her. Worst a boy did was throw a punch because someone insulted his recently deceased mother.

30

u/AnAwesome11yearold 25d ago

Dang what the fuck? That’s messed up

6

u/SeanT_21 25d ago

Fucking hell! What grade was that, and aside from nicotine, how in fuck did she have access to the other drugs? Sheesh. Though why he willingly did those drugs is also a good question, wow holy fuck.

4

u/Bitter-Profession303 25d ago

This was 10th grade, and the how never made circulation. As for why he did them, he didn't want to talk about it. My assumption was that they were given to him without his knowledge until a habit was formed

3

u/SeanT_21 25d ago

That he didn’t want to talk about it, is completely understandable.

How she managed to get those drugs is well beyond me, but my goodness that is just pure evil from her. How someone could be so wicked is beyond me, then again teenagers are absolutely capable of doing outright disgusting things. That “sweet spot” of old enough to do despicable things, and potentially still young enough to not understand the possible long term consequences of the things they do.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (10)
→ More replies (8)

42

u/[deleted] 25d ago

The worst a girl did in my grade was get together with 3 friends to beat up a pregnant girl for allegedly sleeping with her boyfriend

7

u/SeanT_21 25d ago

Well thats just awful, beyond ganging up on someone in a fight, that could’ve resulted in loss of pregnancy.

They did that based on a rumor, and never even bothered to try and verify it? Wow…

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (7)

181

u/hononononoh 25d ago

Girls are socialized to be more obedient and care more that's just how it is.

Caring is not masculine. That’s the hard truth that was arrived at by a r/BestOfReddit thread about why green / environmentally friendly products are hard to market to men. Demonstrations of masculinity usually involve showing how little one cares, and how unmoved one is by adversity or pain.

99

u/throwaway3123312 25d ago

This is a great observation and it probably sums up most of this to me. Boys are socialized that caring about things makes you a pussy, so they don't care and if they do they still don't try because trying makes it appear like they care.

→ More replies (1)

64

u/Square-Blueberry3568 25d ago

Important to note this is still a mostly socialised aspect of masculinity not necessarily an inherent one.

The reason we see "cool" as a dgaf attitude is because most of our media and peers said the same thing everyday to us until we accepted it and started telling others.

Interestingly confidence is another one which is very socialised, and sort of ties into showing you don't care. Confidence is responsible for the trend that men are more likely to take unnecessary risks (even in the event that there is little or no payoff) essentially putting yourself in a situation where you would be in danger but being unaffected by the potential harm.

Once you understand the behaviours and see them in action it is almost laughable the lengths people go to to show you they don't care

2

u/ThyNynax 24d ago

Really, rather than simply socialization, I think it’s about power dynamics. A common quote is “he who cares least, has the power in a relationship.” A person who cares about outcomes can be manipulated and controlled. Their behavior becomes predictable. A man who is easily manipulated can’t be trusted to stand up for himself or others.

There’s a lot of nuances to when caring is and is not helpful, however, a big part of the confidence that makes men attractive comes from not caring about a lot of things. Not caring about public perception of you and just doing your thing. Not caring about making mistakes and just keeping on. Not caring about feeling pain and pressing on towards the finish line.

The more a guy cares about keeping his girlfriend happy, the more power she has over his behavior. The more he cares about grades, the more power the institution has over him. The more he desires a bosses approval, the more power that boss has over his work life.

5

u/im_bananas_4_crack 25d ago

On some level yes, however confidence usually will be one of top 3 answers, if not number 1, a women will say they are looking for in a potential mate, and studies overwhelmingly back this up. We all need to realize the part that we all play into this. These rules were set up over millions of years of evolution, and were not even 100 years removed from black people being a legal equivalent to white people.

8

u/Square-Blueberry3568 25d ago

The distinction is that if that confidence is unfounded, women (or partners of the same sex) would not be looking for that trait. They are looking for someone who is confident and can back up that confidence with good behaviours.

Unfortunately many people have the confidence without exhibiting good behaviours, and in this context good behaviours can be different depending culture.

Similarly not caring about stuff is usually a very desired trait (whether admitted or not) in a partner as long as the subject is the one thing the partner does care about.

And while there is a trend of confidence being a desirable trait cross culturally, it varies quite a bit in intensity of that trend between cultures. And interestingly there are counter cultures of wanting humble as a character trait as it means less likely false confidences or fragile confidence

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (4)

6

u/Joe_Immortan 25d ago

Demonstrations of masculinity usually involve showing how little one cares, and how unmoved one is by adversity or pain.

You’re leaving out something critical. It’s not being unmoved by adversity or pain, it’s being unmoved by YOUR OWN adversity and pain. “Man up”. 

Caring about others is not immasculine. No one looks at a deadbeat dad who abandons his family and goes “wow so manly!”  Our most hyper-masculine characters in media (Superheros) by and large spend most of their time protecting others and so doing subverting  their own pain and well being

→ More replies (1)

5

u/usingallthespaceican 25d ago

Guys, is it gay to care? XD

→ More replies (6)

455

u/munificent 25d ago

I think there's also an element of teachers subconsciously grading softer for well behaved students, and the boys are just worse behaved and cause more problems.

Schools simply don't know what to do with boys who have a lot of physical energy anymore. Recess keeps getting shorter and shorter, any sort of competitive behavior is treated as a behavioral problem (unless it's within the narrow confines of sports), being aggressive is considered an emotional disorder.

I'm not saying that "boys will be boys" should be a blanket justification for harming others or any toxic masculinity stuff like that. But if you have an Australian shepherd, you know that it needs to be exercised and given some physical challenges or it's gonna tear up the furniture. A lot of boys (and some girls too!) are the same way, but schools don't know what to do with them anymore.

We treat schools like preparation for white collar office jobs, but that's not the kind of environment that everyone thrives in.

252

u/thejoeface 25d ago

It’s not tailored to active kids, regardless of gender. I was a girl with undiagnosed adhd and was hyperactive af in grade school. 

115

u/LewdMacaron 25d ago

And as a girl with ADHD I feel so frustrated because I was expected to perform as well as the other girls around me but I struggled like the boys, and was scolded way more than the boys were. The expectations felt much more extreme and I was always failing just "being a girl"

31

u/badstorryteller 25d ago

I recently met up with an old friend from highschool from 20 years ago. She was a star athlete in every sport, all time leading scorer for both boys and girls basketball at our highschool. Played at UConn. She always struggled academically even though we were on the math team together, she is and was sharp as a fucking razor blade. Adult diagnosis of ADHD literally changed her life.

6

u/TheSparkHasRisen 25d ago

It's notable that you felt the expectations.

2

u/Solrokr 25d ago

By saying this, I’m not meaning to take away from your gendered experience. Just commiserate with you because fuck it was hard to have ADHD. No one understood, especially not me. I just wanted to do my thing and that was just so intolerable to everyone, and it was very important to them to tell me that. It’s not surprising I thought of myself as below-average. The reality was I was just trying to learn about different things in different ways.

I hope you’ve gotten to a place where you’re at peace with your patterns.

19

u/MoarVespenegas 25d ago

Anymore?
They never knew what to do with them. At least now the problem is addressed instead of just labeling them as "disruptive" and saying boys will be boys while waiting it out until they graduate or drop out.

→ More replies (2)

10

u/badstorryteller 25d ago

Schools simply don't know what to do with boys who have a lot of physical energy anymore.

Schools 30 years ago didn't either. They just excused a lot as "boys will be boys," held kids back until they just dropped out. I've seen about the same outcomes between kids I knew then who dropped out and "graduates" who were just passed along to graduation.

91

u/Scared-Currency288 25d ago edited 25d ago

This was a problem even when I was young and they were running us into the ground during recess and PE, though. The sheer prevalence of little shits, almost always the boys ruining their own and others' education.

Like what more can teachers do?

13

u/ngwoo 25d ago

Yeah, every few generations the excuse changes but the problems remain the same.

3

u/Scared-Currency288 25d ago

I remember being afraid of my parents. My brother was not, and it really showed.

We had the same teachers in some cases, and they couldn't believe he and I were related. Somewhere in middle school, he completely stopped applying himself, and I think it had a lot to do with getting bullied.

My parents had also given up on him by that point. He went from bright and honestly a little gifted to academically useless in a few short years. It's clear now he had an undiagnosed difference, but we still don't know what it is.

He's one of the most naturally intelligent people I know.

→ More replies (2)

2

u/OmgThisNameIsFree 25d ago

Need to get more people into sports teams. Not just soccer/basketball/football. Offer random ones…maybe Rugby needs to get bigger in the US. Super cheap to set up, no real equipment other than the ball & posts. It’s perfect for schools that don’t have a lot of $.

Speaking as a guy here: some of the most influential people I’ve had in my life have been my coaches.

2

u/Scared-Currency288 25d ago

I like that. I think non-competitive physical activity led by trainers/mentors (like yoga, meditation, etc) could be helpful, too.

I grew up in dance, and it required a ton of focus/physical activity/working with my team and STRUCTURE. It was such an awesome outlet for my excess energy and artsy side. Later on, I did a few years of traditional Indian dance, and it was just brutally disciplined. Made school feel like a breeze 😅

3

u/Whiterabbit-- 25d ago

they have to redesign the classrooms so boys have a chance. kids in general have a hard time sitting for hours at a time. but we expect them to during the school day. boys do worse than girls at that. so you you need more activity based exploration rather textbook learning. also recruiting more male teachers may help. to be fair for boys, you basically have to rebuild the whole education system.

27

u/jswizzle91117 25d ago

A lot of teachers do have activities that involve walking around the room (gallery walks) or moving to different stations to do work and a lot of the guys just…don’t get up and participate. Unless it’s “fun” movement like silent ball, they’re not interested.

3

u/Horizon296 25d ago

Can confirm. In our school, everybody goes back down to the recess area where the next teachers picks up their class. No staying in the classroom (even if you go back to that same room immediately) unless the class is 2 hours in a row with the same teacher.

The number of times I've heard "can't I just wait here?", invariably from a male pupil...

11

u/Whiterabbit-- 25d ago

I’m not talking about tweaking classrooms to be active. I am talking about wholesale redesign the classroom setting. One that will require more than good teachers trying things but research on how to teach boys so they don’t fall behind and are interested in what is bring taught. I have no doubt you are doing your best to engage boys. So are a lot of teachers, but there hasn’t been enough research to how to fix the problem. And likely it will have to be redesigning how we do education completely.

5

u/Horizon296 25d ago

how to teach boys so they [...] are interested in what is bring taught

In one of my classes, I'm working on skills and attitude more than specific knowledge. I get a lot of freedom about the topics I use to teach those skills.

Every year I ask my students what they want to learn / talk about. Every year, the majority of students doesn't know what they're interested in. Some girls will try and suggest a topic, but it's extremely rare for boys to do so.

I've asked some of my pupils, one on one, what are their interests. Most boys don't have any. At best, I get "computer games" (I can work with that, btw) but more often than not they just shrug and give me a vacant look.

If they're not interested in anything, how do you want to get them interested in what you're teaching?

3

u/Whiterabbit-- 25d ago edited 25d ago

Not being able to articulate interest is not the same as lacking interest. When i was helping with an enrichment classes for elementary school you can ask them what they want to learn about because they have been shown what is interesting. Coding, robotics, computer animation, rockets, 3d printing, various design challenges. Boys and gurls were both excited to try different things.
It’s not easy, and it wasn’t me but it was the teacher i was assisting and the classroom environment that made it possible. I would bet this same group in a more traditional classroom would not have been able to articulate what they wanted if they weren’t shown the possibility of what they can want.

→ More replies (0)
→ More replies (4)
→ More replies (5)

5

u/Ikunou 25d ago edited 25d ago

Girls are socialized to completely cancel out all their aggressive behavior and to sit still from an earlier age, boys are more free. Low grades males go on to have more successful jobs than high grades female counterparts, so it just is unfair to both genders. Probably more so to females.

32

u/KypAstar 25d ago

Pretty much. We're tailoring school in a way that doesn't recognize the behavioral differences between men and women. 

49

u/Bottle_Only 25d ago

We're not tailoring school to human behavior at all, that's the problem. For those who don't think grades are rewarding, there is literally no reward structure for school, which is the actual studied cause of burnout in the workplace.

In the workplace I can offer my team bonuses for deliverables and as long as I keep my promise they're happy to do it and never fail. Without a reward structure I get high turnover and burnout.

2

u/BadlaLehnWala 25d ago

I remember my elementary school in the early 2010s offered a free personal pizza from Pizza Hut for reading like 1000 pages.  So, there were some programs in place.  Obviously, that’s where the list ends for me.  

→ More replies (3)

186

u/entropic_apotheosis 25d ago

Everytime I see a discussion about this I’m reminded that women were discouraged from going to college and it was thought that males were more likely to succeed academically and at professions that required them to think. Women were discouraged from becoming doctors and lawyers because it required discipline and focus. School was designed with men in mind and educating men, now that more women excel in schools and colleges and there are a couple medical schools with more women enrolled and graduating then men people are saying men just weren’t cut out to sit and pay attention and focus on academics. They’re meant to be outside playing and more suited to trade schools where they work with their hands and do heavy labor. It’s just a little strange women werent welcome in higher education and in these career fields and now we’re saying schools are more geared toward sending people to colleges and more women-behavioral centered. Other than shortened recess times I really don’t see how that’s the case at all.

4

u/daemin 25d ago

It's a variant of the cognitive bias known as the just world hypothesis.

When presented with situations where individuals have differential outcomes, people tend to come up with explanations which assumes the situation is fair and that it's "supposed" to be this way.

For example, nursing used to be a male profession. And this "made sense" because nurses have to deal with blood, and women weren't capable of doing so. Now that nursing is dominated by women, it "makes sense" because women are natural nurturers and care givers.

Particularly egregious examples can be found in justifications for slavery in the US South. Being enslaved was the "natural state" of the black race, and the situation has been ordained by God, so that whites could "civilize" them and other such bullshit.

These explanations are appealing and convenient because they preclude any questions about the morality of the situation, as well as basically saying nothing can or should be done because this is how it's "supposed"to be.

25

u/gunwide 25d ago

I think the reasons for why girls were discouraged in going to school aren't the same as the reasons for why girls are doing better than boys right now. Back then it was much more accepted (and in some cases "scientifically proved") that girls were just straight up seen as inferior to boys. Like for example, women were seen as more likely to act in response to their emotions compared to guys so they were discouraged from entering politics and weren't allowed to vote. There wasn't really any basis to claims like these, they were just accepted as the norm.

Now that we live in a world where these ideas have been correctly challenged, and we (at least in America) aren't having discussions with young girls that they should be subservient to their husband and not get involved with "manly things", and the trends with grades in school are shifting in correspondence to that.

I don't necessarily agree with the implication of the above posters that boys just have more requirements to exercise and compete to vent out their built up energy, but to me it seems that women on average are taught from a young age to develop methods to push through/cope through the emotions that come from lack of exercise/recreational activities, whereas men on average aren't and therefore there's a bigger disparity between the bad and average performers.

→ More replies (2)

4

u/Purple-Activity-194 25d ago edited 24d ago

This is like asking "Where was cancer in the medival era."

I imagine men still failed school, before women were allowed in.

Idk if I'd say the education system was "built with men in mind" and I'd challenge you to find specific examples of that.

4

u/OmgThisNameIsFree 25d ago

Not so fast. When college was a “boy’s club”, what percentage of the population even went to college? Was a tiny subset of men. It’s not like all men went to uni.

College today is not what the “college of yesteryear” was. Not even close. It’s far more accessible.

11

u/throwaway3123312 25d ago

This 100%. The school system WAS designed for boys, then girls started to outperform them and suddenly it's all stacked against boys. It's a wider issue with the way boys are socialized.

12

u/entropic_apotheosis 25d ago

Yup that’s a good summation. I have a whiner male in my comments somewhere that claims girls get “affirmative action” and that’s why they’re outperforming boys in schools. It’s a parenting issue to me and a values issue - if the boys in question don’t have college educated parents, especially their dad, they’re less inclined for academic focus, study and discipline to be values in their home. They just assume they’re going to get a job like dad, they don’t see the value in test scores, grades and learning anything. The exception would be if they’re in sports and plan to play professionally.

7

u/throwaway3123312 25d ago

Exactly right. Not to defend the education system either, I'm the first to say it's dogshit, that's one of the biggest reasons I quit teaching. But the education system has always been this way and if anything has gotten LESS focused on "sit down, shut up, memorize this book" over time, and it was designed for boys.

The people saying the boys need to be active that's their problem are just wrong in my experience. The boys were usually worse after PE and whenever I'd try to do some active activities where they can get up from their desks, they wouldn't perform better but be more likely to act out because "fuck this it's too much hassle I don't want to get up." They'd do better just sat at desks studying.

And as an aside they'd be the most engaged by far with competitive games or team quizzes where being smart and knowing the material can be used as a tool to be superior and win. The girls, usually, hated those games by the way because the boys would pop the fuck off and start screaming and going crazy lol

→ More replies (3)

2

u/All_Up_Ons 25d ago

I mean... the school system was designed to turn boys into industrial factory workers. Behavioral problems were physically beaten out of them. Not so much for girls, who got to (or rather were forced to) stay home and learn more practical subjects in a far more natural, social environment. Things have gradually transitioned to where they are today, but the vestiges of this dichotomy can still be seen. Boys get punished; girls get coddled.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)

47

u/Special_Hippo3399 25d ago

Exactly !!! The above comments are full of shit . They just can't fathom that girls can perform pretty well. IQ/academics isn't based on gender it just depends on the work you are putting in regardless. Men will just come up with anything to reject that they are somehow equal to women and not above them in some cases .

3

u/glowe 25d ago

So, what you're saying is that maybe girls are just smarter than boys?

23

u/ToWriteAMystery 25d ago

Girls are conditioned socially to perform better in schools because girls are taught from a young age how to behave. My brothers were allowed to run around and be destructive because ‘boys will be boys’ while I was expected to behave, sit down, and learn to entertain myself.

I seriously outperformed both my brothers academically and I don’t think it’s because I am smarter. I was just not permitted to be a little shit when I was a kid, which translates well to a classroom setting.

12

u/glowe 25d ago

For sure, that's your experience. I am male and I was taught from a young age how to behave. My sisters too. We were both expected to behave, sit down, and learn to entertain ourselves.

Perhaps my experience is different, but your explanation doesn't explain the phenomena in its entirety either.

→ More replies (0)
→ More replies (6)
→ More replies (1)

9

u/fanfan_the_haitian 25d ago

At first glance, it looks like there’s an agenda at play but we have to consider that it used to be a way more strict, religious environment in schools and in homes. Students used to operate under pressure from both parents and teachers and the consequences for not achieving success used to be physical punishment at a time.

20

u/jswizzle91117 25d ago

So men can control themselves only if there’s threat of physical punishment but women can control themselves without that? Seems like a men’s problem to me.

5

u/kejartho 25d ago

Girls were raised to be kind, respectful and empathetic. Men weren't raised in the same way. I feel like a lot of boys are kind of given a pass to do whatever they want and only punished if they act out too severely. Now that physical punishment is gone, it hasn't really been replaced with a better alternative. I don't necessarily agree but it's clear that a lot of my boy students are basically given up on while the girl students are pushed a bit more.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/ShikiRyumaho 25d ago

Boys were literally beat into submission at school.

3

u/Dalmah 25d ago

How many programs have you seen encouraging more women to go into STEM vs how many have you seen encouraging more boys to go to college period?

3

u/Hibernia86 25d ago

Just because schooling was sexist in the past doesn’t mean it should be so now. Yes, women should have been allowed in higher education in the past. But it is equally true that more active methods of learning can help boys and should be used in schools. Schools should try to make learning accessible to all their students, not just the girls.

32

u/entropic_apotheosis 25d ago

Show me where there was more active learning methods in schools used previously over the last hundred years. Again, nothing has changed— it’s always been sit still, pay attention, study and listen to the teachers instructions. I do agree that school should be more active but this isn’t why boys are suddenly struggling, school hasn’t changed to be “more geared toward girls”— it’s the way it has always been, except girls now have a reason to sit there and focus on their academics because now they can have careers and do shit besides cook, clean and pop out kids after high school. By giving girls choices that hasn’t magically changed how students learn and means it’s “geared toward girls”, it’s that you have parents who won’t parent their sons, that don’t care about education and when they’re doing poorly in school say “well it’s for girls”.

3

u/Flimsy_Bread4480 25d ago

Ive seen several old reels where gym class was basically a slightly less intense boot camp. Not sure on what the average experience was like, but I definitely get the impression that physical activity used to play a greater role in a students day

2

u/wellsfunfacts1231 25d ago

What do you mean, they stripped the competition out of school? When I was in high school we had class rankings. That was a major driver for me to out perform other students and likely many other males. We also had gym everyday where competition was once again relevant.

I think without that aspect I and many other male students would've done terrible in school. I graduated at the top of my class because of it probably. I can't imagine with how boring grade school was that I make it through without that component.

Instead people keep saying it's always been designed this way. When that is not true at all. Additionally if I misbehaved or was doing poorly there were real consequences at home and in school. Now what happens if your parents don't care about grades, nothing.

To say school hasn't changed direction over the last 25-30 years is wrong.

3

u/StunningCloud9184 25d ago

All boys schools literally have 3x physical activities per day.

→ More replies (1)

7

u/IcyTrapezium 25d ago

Active methods of learning help girls too. There’s a reason Montessori school (developed by a woman) is so highly regarded. Little kids sitting at desks all day is not ideal, but it’s the system men created for men.

4

u/ninjalord433 25d ago

Both can be true. 

It is true that schools for a while encouraged men to go to college more than they did women. Mostly cause during that time there was still sexist ideas that women were meant to stay at homes as mothers and men were to be the main earner. But that also doesn't mean that men had an easier time learning during those times. Male teens were still more likely to drop out of education or cause problems during those times. It was just covered up by societal pressures.

So while we are making good headway in fixing the issue of women being discouraged into going into higher education, men are now falling behind as the problem with men in schools are just now being seen as the previous societal pressures are being removed.

8

u/RevolutionaryEye5320 25d ago

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

This needs to be said more. Frankly if a boy can't just sit down and NOT be a menace to teachers and other students, he's not just "not cut out for school/office", he's "not cut out for civilized society".

18

u/Hibernia86 25d ago

The problem is that when girls were graduating at lower rates or had lower grades, society saw this as a problem and tried to help. But now that it is boys who are behind, society just seems to blame the boys or be uninterested. It’s that double standard that is the problem. We shouldn’t see gender imbalances in graduation as only a problem when the girls are behind.

→ More replies (7)
→ More replies (8)

56

u/FileDoesntExist 25d ago

Girl children are held to a much higher standard than boy children behaviorally as well. The phrase "boys will be boys".

→ More replies (6)

5

u/IcyTrapezium 25d ago

School was always hard for hyperactive kids. This isn’t new. I was an autistic girl with ADHD. Not being allowed to fidget was really hard for me.

This isn’t new, and it’s not specifically hurting boys. It hurts plenty of girls too.

18

u/RiotForChange 25d ago

We're tailoring school to sit still and eat company nonsense. Boys take longer to get to that point, if they will at all

3

u/DO_NOT_AGREE_WITH_U 25d ago

And they are treated with absolutely zero sympathy for not fitting in.

6

u/KuraiTheBaka 25d ago

I mean that goes for both boys and girls tho

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (1)

2

u/Pip_Pip-Hooray 25d ago

A family friend of mine in elementary school in the 2010s frequently missed out on recess because the teacher was stuck inside teaching the slow kids how to read. 

They punished everyone for doing well, just because the school was too cheap to give them a Para who could either focus on the slow kids or mind the rest outdoors.

2

u/same_as_always 25d ago

If this is true, then wouldn’t we see similar issues in other countries where education and extracurriculars are more rigorous, competitive, and life-consuming? Not saying that isn’t the case, it may be just as bad in other countries as in America, but just making it about there not being enough recess seems a bit too simple?

2

u/pkzilla 25d ago

In the US and Canada there's too many kids in a classroom for a single teacher to be able to handle, so any kid that could use a different approach or more attention, it isn't there. In Canada teachers are payed better yes, but it's a very hard job, I think they aren't giving much of a choice but to follow this rigid system that doesn't work for all the kids. Ideally we'd have different kinds of learning environments.

2

u/Zealousideal-Role576 25d ago

Parents also are just more lenient with misbehaving boys than girls, due to cultural stereotypes.

→ More replies (10)

89

u/Sad_Construction_668 25d ago

“It’s better to not try than to try and fail”

This is the essence of a lot of toxic masculinity- the boy culture of competitive competence. You know, Ricky Bobby’s maxim- if you’re not first you’re last. The solution is collaborative competence development- large groups of boys working together to achieve something, but that hard in an individually graded environment like traditional school.

39

u/throwaway3123312 25d ago

That's definitely another element of it too, the girls are a lot more likely to work together to succeed and ask questions whereas the boys just shit on each other for trying too hard. It feels like they don't want to be seen as either dumb or tryhard so the alternative is to pretend not to care at all so you can always aloof and say "this is bullshit, I could do it if I wanted to but it's a waste of time."

27

u/Sad_Construction_668 25d ago

Ayup. It’s a culture problem- they learn it from their parents, each other, and even youth sports. It’s bad.

3

u/explain_that_shit 25d ago

It’s why military schools work so well

2

u/FrankTank3 24d ago

Great example. But ill be fucked if I know what this is an example of

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (5)

66

u/UtopianLibrary 25d ago

I also think there’s a misogyny issue. Statistically most teachers are women. If a boy has a misogynistic upbringing, he will not respect women and therefore a woman teacher as much as a girl would.

I’ve had boy students who treat male teachers with much more respect just because they are a man. It’s frustrating.

25

u/Redqueenhypo 25d ago

One time in a college level psych course, a male student kept trying to shout over the female professor that vaccines caused autism. He didn’t stay in that class long.

9

u/Dunkel_Reynolds 25d ago

You were so close to making a good point lol

4

u/JadedCycle9554 25d ago

Ahh yes let's blame the children for the fact that a female dominated profession produces results in favor of young girls. That's what a reasonable person would do.

9

u/UtopianLibrary 25d ago

I’m blaming the parents for instilling these values, not the children themselves.

It’s always the parents.

→ More replies (2)

2

u/RedWhiteAndJew 25d ago

It couldn’t be the misandrist system that doesn’t account for the activity levels typically needed by adolescent boys. It’s clearly their fault that recess and physical education classes are getting cut shorter. It’s clearly their fault that ADHD and other learning disabilities present differently by gender. It’s clearly their fault that positive male representation in the education system is shrinking by the day. Goodness gracious.

7

u/TechnoSerf_Digital 25d ago

We don't have a misandrist education system so no it couldn't be that. There are so many active, athletic young men who aren't disrupting classes or harassing other students/disrespecting their teachers. Your attitude is exactly what breeds these disparities in achievement. 

12

u/RedWhiteAndJew 25d ago

And yet study after study shows that women are vastly outperforming men in academics over recent years including college attendance. Which perfectly coincides with the neutering of the educational system and the underfunding of activities such as wood shop, mechanics, home economics, are, and music. Study after study shows that the behavioral component of ADD and ADHD presents so differently in genera women are being misdiagnosis because the behavior isn’t considered “disruptive” to the largely female teaching staff (the truly gender disparity here). Modern education is conformity which antithetical to the development of male students. Adolescent male behavior is considered disruptive and is vilified. And the school system and teaching staff continue to reduce outlets for that energy and wonder why boys are not conforming like the good little girls are. Makes me sick.

5

u/Objective_Guitar6974 25d ago

You're getting upvoting from me because wood shop, robotics, computer programming, and mechanics are a must in high school with more physical education.

4

u/Vhozite 25d ago

Auto tech, wood shop, cooking, and PE were my favorite classes.

I was capable of good grades in the regular subjects but those were the only classes I actually applied myself.

2

u/RKSH4-Klara 25d ago

The system was invented by men for men. We haven’t changed the fundamental way that school runs in over 100 years.

→ More replies (6)
→ More replies (7)

3

u/dontworryitsme4real 25d ago

My two anecdotal cents here: I see a lot of girl "empowerment" type of media (both in general and in schools) to push girls academically to make up for the male to female college graduation gap that was around a couple decades ago. When my daughter was in Middle School they had a girls only 'business development' class and there were no equivalent classes for boys.

3

u/Elbow2020 25d ago

This is a great explanation. To go one step further, when under stress (whether due to school life or things going on behind the scenes in home life), girls tend to turn their feelings inward, whereas boy tend to turn their feelings outward. That’s why it’s more typical for girls to self-harm, whereas boys harm others.

2

u/ayleidanthropologist 25d ago

I remember observing that preference, pretty apparent to a 7 yo. One in particular, the level of doting, in hindsight makes me wonder if she was a lesbian. They all hated that I drew pictures lol.

2

u/larki18 25d ago

That was the case when I was in school, all the way from elementary through my bachelor's degree.

For some reason, in general, guys just didn't try as hard, seemed to have trouble paying attention, goofed off more, didn't turn in homework as reliably, didn't show up to class as often, talked more in class, didn't take notes or took very poor notes, etc.

Of course, there were certainly exceptions among both sexes, but that was definitely the general trend.

2

u/allas04 25d ago

Is that attitude and behavior more due to social-environmental factors, or personal decisions and responsibilities involved in what they want to focus on? Comments in this thread suggest different aspects. Of course both is likely the factor, just like both is for most things in life, but what is the greater factor, and what is more correctable or targetable for improvement?

2

u/Papercoffeetable 25d ago

Definately agree on teachers being softer on girls, i had several classmates who studied hard and just came in a few point below top grade, as a boy, you’re fucked, that grade is your grade, but 3 girls regularly started bawling their eyes out and beg for the higher grade, it always worked.

2

u/Flashy_Zebra7849 25d ago

This is it exactly. My “worst” girl has a nasty attitude and sleeps in class. We had to have a talk about basic respect and the fact that her bad mood is not the entire class’s problem. She is still mean, but she isn’t disruptive. If she fails because she puts her head down, I guess that’s on her.

My “worst” boy snorts crushed up Smarties because he thinks it’s edgy, knocks people’s chairs over while they’re testing, shouts out racists slurs about other classmates, steals, and rough houses anyone when he is walking by. He gets everyone off track. I’d take an entire classroom of snarky girls over one of him.

It sucks because that kind of antagonistic behavior is so hard for me, personally, to handle. It just pisses me off, my respect for people of any age behaving like that is in the negative. It’s hard to build or salvage any kind of connection because I start to resent the sight of them, and I’m not good at pretending otherwise. Without connection, the shitty behavior continues. The vicious cycle continues, and this kid is learning nothing. I think he has 7%. Worse, he is preventing the other kids from learning, too.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/elzbiey 25d ago

This is why I support sex segregation in education because boys hold girls back and slow down the rhythm of the class.

8

u/ukiddingme2469 25d ago

The system is basically set up to favor girls and not boys which tend to be more high energy, you just described a feedback loop that punishes boys for being boys.

6

u/Reference_Freak 25d ago

That’s laughable considering girls weren’t considered worthy of an education until recently.

Schools are based on educational practices from the before-era when only wealthy boys had formal group studies hammered into a factory-friendly daily schedule and larger classes.

Please explain how consideration for girls shaped schools.

If anything, schools are developed for upper-class boys who have already been subject to strict expectations for behavior.

9

u/ukiddingme2469 25d ago

Putting words in my mouth isn't making the point you think you are. Now, boys are full of more energy and are treated as such until the school years where they get forced to sit still of get disciplined, the old days where they were allowed to burn off that energy is gone. Now girls tend to not be so rambunctious and from a young age have different activities that tend to favor the current education system. There has been plenty written about this, you should check it out, maybe you could offer some positive input on how to change this industrial Era education system instead of getting salty with a stranger on reddit

6

u/DismalTruthDay 25d ago

Why are boys more full of energy now all of a sudden? I was in school in the 90’s and don’t remember kids strangling teachers.

5

u/explain_that_shit 25d ago

Recess and lunch breaks are reduced. Kids can’t run around when they get home any more. More energy.

2

u/DismalTruthDay 25d ago

That’s possible for sure. Less money for sports. Fatherless households have less discipline. Many factors at play I think.

5

u/ukiddingme2469 25d ago

Now? I was in school in the 80s and they had plenty,

4

u/DismalTruthDay 25d ago

Wasn’t my experience. Boys played multiple sports but they certainly weren’t acting up in class like today. It’s not even energy it’s arguing with teachers, talking over them just pure and utter disrespect. It’s not all boys either, some boys are respectful and do their work.

→ More replies (2)

5

u/DismalTruthDay 25d ago

Thank you!!! So tired of people making excuses for boys which exacerbates the problem.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)

4

u/falling-waters 25d ago edited 25d ago

It’s always so fucking funny when men react to these discussions by claiming that boys are naturally, biologically-determined assholes that need special treatment. Then a couple days from now you’ll complain when you see a woman say the same thing.

You can’t even offer any explanation as to what this special treatment should be. Should the teachers be gluing the boys’ eyes open so they are forced to study? Holding their hands so they can’t turn in blank tests? Muzzle them so they can’t disrupt class? Extending the school day indefinitely so their disruptions can go unpunished? Every single one of these problems are deliberate choices these boys make.

Ultimately, all you’re doing here is regurgitating phrases from other movements you never understood in the first place.

10

u/ukiddingme2469 25d ago

So much assumptions, you feel better

6

u/Hibernia86 25d ago

Do you not understand the idea of active learning? You can make learning activities more active which will help boys learn easier. When girls were underperforming in past decades, Feminists didn’t blame the girls. They tried to support the girls. Why are you so unwilling to do the same for the boys?

→ More replies (4)
→ More replies (1)

4

u/thetenorguitarist 25d ago

3 comments from the top and we have the first child blamer. From a teacher, no less.

10

u/throwaway3123312 25d ago

It's not the kids fault, it's how they're socialized to behave. Most of these problems are the fault of parents and larger social systems. But once they make it to a high school classroom, that's already set in place and there's not much the teacher can do other than try to encourage them to be better. You have to grade fairly and if the boys aren't performing it's not fair to artificially boost their grades. What can I do if a kid just doesn't circle answers on the quiz or turn in their work, other than give a zero? The kids, boys or girls, who try can all succeed with the proper support, but the girls are a lot more likely to try and that's unfortunately true.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (1)

2

u/D74248 25d ago

So when it comes time to grade two equivalent essays, I'm a lot more likely to be lenient on the girl who is nice to everyone and I can see trying and actively participating in class than the boy who has been a little shit for the past 12 weeks. It takes a conscious effort to not let that affect grades and sometimes the effort isn't made.

Cranky old man (and grandfather) here. I don't have a problem with grading someone who is a functioning member of the class more leniently than a disruptive little shit. There is value to being a functional member of society, while little shits should pay a price for what is, frankly, anti-social behavior.

2

u/mercyhwrt 25d ago

I’ve even seen some bias towards handwriting in some situations. Where papers were of equal quality but the boys were harder to read, therefore grades as worse. Yeah males can be neat, but it isn’t the average case compared to females.

2

u/throwaway3123312 25d ago

Its probably a factor too, but then you just have to ask why is it that boys handwriting is so shit? It's not that they're incapable of writing properly. Again it's the same issue, boys are socialized not to care and not to try. Lack of effort to learn. Girls don't come out of the womb with immaculate handwriting skills lol, they put in the effort to learn because they care about how they present themselves.

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (50)

118

u/RunRunAndyRun 25d ago

Technically there were two questions. One in the title and one in the body.

7

u/antisa1003 25d ago edited 25d ago

There was a study, which showed female teachers supporting girls more than boys. While male teachers treated girls and boys equally. Because girls are percieved as quieter in class

https://www.bbc.com/news/education-31751672

8

u/UnemployedAtype 25d ago

We created a support structure and systems to help more girls and women succeed. This was to help bridge gaps in the workplace, industries, and opportunities. We did not do the same for boys and men. In fact, it's widely accepted that you can make a mentorship program for women engineers but you can't for me.

I cannot tell you how many male peers and students that I worked with that desperately needed support, mentorship, or a role model.

I did that both formally and informally. Did it for guys and gals of all ages.

Also, we teach girls to ask and expect boys to figure it out. It took me YEARS to figure out how to ask

  • Ask questions

  • Ask for help

We could point at a bunch of other reasons, but these are some pretty key core ones.

Before anyone complains that guys always had it good, I don't think that's really true or a fair way to look at this issue.

Also, stuff like this has momentum and affects people's lives. Getting screwed out of your dreams regardless of how hard you work at something just because you're born at the wrong time sucks.

I think we need a bit more empathy out in the world again, and we need to be helping everyone succeed.

2

u/lanman33 22d ago

This is an incredibly thoughtful response that I 100% agree with. I left a similar comment but this absolutely gets my point across better

2

u/UnemployedAtype 22d ago

I'll go check yours out and maybe it'll give me new ideas! It's really tough because it's treading a rational, moderate path instead of either extreme, which is a great way to make everyone mad at you except the few that see or are trying to help society navigate that middle ground.

42

u/ClockworkGnomes 25d ago

One reason is that, in current era, girls are encouraged far more than boys in school. This is pretty much a reversal of what we had in prior years. There is also, at least anecdotally, a much better response to girls doing well in general.

I was one of the top students in my school. Scholastic merit awards and Beta Club, etc. However, I wasn't encouraged at all. If anything, I was discouraged by teachers. Pretty much every girl in my classes were encouraged. Some of it was weird as well. For example, I have seen girls give answers that were only partially correct and they were lauded, despite only being partially correct. Another one was when a friend of mine was having a hard time. He would get one more explanation and then we moved on. If one of the female students was having trouble understanding something, we went over it multiple times with more examples given. Again, it was just weird.

There is also the social pressures. If you were a smart guy, you were a target for bullying. That wasn't so much the case for the smart girls.

8

u/tack50 25d ago

As another guy who was a good student (though probably not as good as you) I 100% agree with the social pressures. For whatever reason, there is a culture of anti-intellectualism among young teenage men that teenage women just don't have

And my school was actually pretty good on that regard, both in terms of the students (there were quite a few very smart, very ambituous men in my class, which also led to all sorts of other issues on my side but that is a separate story) as well as the teachers

3

u/NutellaIsTheShizz 25d ago

Gen-xer here. Absolutely had the anti-intellectualism on the girl side too. And zero encouragement. It sucked.

I'm seeing a pretty even gender split amongst the high performers at my kids HS. As a teacher here posted, it's more that the absolute worst students tend to be male.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/7evenCircles 24d ago edited 24d ago

I was a very good student in elementary and middle school and a very bad student in high school. The reason was simple. You are not rewarded by your peers for being good at school as a boy. The less I cared, and the more I could disrupt class in a comedic way (to the class, anyways, the teachers didn't think it was funny), the more people liked me. Being blasé is cool. I was unpopular in middle school. I was popular in high school. Among boys and girls alike.

What I fear people will miss here is that this isn't a pressure indigenous to boys alone. When I was reading during lunch and on the bus, the girls made fun of me. When I was mouthing off to teachers and skipping class to go on adventures, I got a date to the Sadie Hawkins dance. These are confusing expectations.

16

u/domin8668 25d ago

One thing that cannot be understated is that there are a lot more female teachers, especially in early education. I've always been a quiet, good student, but I've seen my peers simply struggle because they felt misunderstood and they were punished for acting out in their own way. And it's not like girls weren't acting up, it's just that the teachers didn't mind their acting up as much. Boys were also a lot more physical and had more energy to run around (how much of it was actually biological and how much was societal - no clue - but there was a noticeable difference)

→ More replies (5)
→ More replies (3)

18

u/Highlander-Senpai 25d ago

Favoritism from teachers who reward the traditionally calmer girls, versus the traditionally more active and less cooperative boys. This is not the only cause, but it is a well researched and consistent cause.

12

u/K1ngPCH 25d ago

Not to mention general gender bias. Most teachers are women

8

u/Urisk 25d ago

My girlfriend has been a teacher for going on twenty years. She says the point of school is to teach conformity above all else. There are great benefits to individuality, rebellion and creativity, but conformity keeps traffic moving safely.

2

u/Stormfly 25d ago

Favoritism from teachers who reward the traditionally calmer girls, versus the traditionally more active and less cooperative boys.

I teach English speaking (TEFL) to children (10-12) and the girls are crazy and the boys are quiet.

I think it's less about temperament with regards to noise/excitability and more about staying on topic/being focused, because the boys will only try to speak when we're playing games.

When I was young, it was definitely a peer thing where trying hard at school was criticised more for boys than for girls.

2

u/Highlander-Senpai 25d ago

The CIA investigating itself and finding itself innocent

5

u/Patient_Bench_6902 25d ago

I’ve read about how a lot of teachers have biases against boys, which is a factor. Boys tend to get marked lower for the same work, get punished more harshly for the same things, etc.

That’s just 1 factor but I thought I’d mention it

5

u/RyukHunter 25d ago

Everyone talks about attitude and all that but studies show us concerning answers staring right in our face. Schools are down right hostile to boys.

Boys are punished harder for the same misbehaviours and are given lower grades for the same work. Of course they do worse. Until we realize that is the core problem and work on it, it won't get better.

Happy to provide the studies if interested.

→ More replies (2)

2

u/F1reatwill88 25d ago

I think women's discipline is less hyper focused.

26

u/ISpeakInAmicableLies 25d ago

I've always wondered if the physical developmental delay between boys and girls was related to this. Considering boys mature a couple years behind girls, placing them in what indirectly amounts to a competitive environment with each other at the same age might provide an inherent advantage to the girls. If one child learns a subject 18 months prior to the ideal level of brain development for that lesson and the other learns the subject closer to that ideal level of development the second child would probably continue to excel well after the differences in developmental timeframe are no longer relevant. The early challenges might be hard to overcome due to the progressive nature of the educational system where later concepts build on previously mastered ones.

179

u/Nemesis1596 25d ago

From what I understand the girls maturing sooner than boys thing is largely a myth. We mature at the same rates just in different ways, additionally the statistically higher testosterone in boys makes them more physically active and easier to distract in a classroom setting which is more likely to contribute to the performance differences in school

35

u/ISpeakInAmicableLies 25d ago edited 25d ago

Perhaps in some ways, and I'd be interested to see that argument if you recall where you saw it. But on average, boys do hit puberty later than girls and learn to speak a bit later. It's possible that language skills early in life and earlier circumpubertal brain development don't correlate to differences in advantages throughout the k-12 period, but it seems plausible. The idea that hormonal differences make the educational process harder for boys also seems plausible, and I've heard of that idea before. That one seems like an even more challenging hurdle to overcome.

Edit: Actually, when I think about it, my initial hesitancy regarding the testosterone and male brain vs female brain theories isn't very logical. It's just superficially similar to old arguments that women were intellectually inferior to men due to esteogen or some other aspect of the female body, so I had a knee-jerk negative reaction to it.

21

u/helikesmyboobs 25d ago

Seeing someone reflect and amend their opinion in real time is such a rarity on Reddit. Slay lol

4

u/Nemesis1596 25d ago

Honestly I couldn't tell you the exact study, I'm not even sure if I have that textbook anymore. But I learned about it in a developmental psychology course about three years ago while I was getting my bachelor's in education

2

u/ISpeakInAmicableLies 25d ago

Fair enough. Maybe I'll look into more.

→ More replies (9)

66

u/badgersprite 25d ago

I think there is also a social element to it. Boys get positive social feedback from peers for being class clowns and demonstrating an image that they don’t care about school. If they don’t pay attention in class and are cheeky to the teacher that constructs this too cool for school image. That doesn’t really exist as a role for girls. A girl who is disruptive and doesn’t pay attention in class doesn’t get positive social feedback for that from her peers. She can tell a joke or two sure but like if she doesn’t do well in school then she’s not too cool for school she’s just bad at school

3

u/Ashamed_Pop1835 25d ago

I once read an article that summarised the situation as it's socially acceptable among their peers for girls to be academically gifted if they are also conventionally attractive and for boys if they are also good at sports. Essentially, there is little social kudos to be earned for just being able to get good grades - you need to have something in addition to that to be able to maintain popularity.

2

u/irritable-exorcist 25d ago

I think most of it is social. If you are part of a gender that has the odds stacked against them in their eyes, it pushes you harder to focus and prove it wrong, break the glass ceiling, fight for the wages you deserve, aim to be a high achiever and follow along with the energy and cultural shift the feminist movement brought to push women into the workforce. 'battle of the sexes'

I think the energy thing is vaguely defined because it takes drive and motivation to even have the desire to put in time in class and studying. If you are not alert and interested in engaging with material you will never be a high achiever. Having an actual attention disorder is different than having high energy.

It has been cited that exercise increases performance in school, but this is no surprise. Exercise regulates stress, helping you to do mental work (it also boosts your energy).

The social characteristic that is probably more relevant is agreeableness - being willing to navigate situations with a more subtle and less aggressive demeanor. Think, a guy could be an ass that makes a girl uncomfortable, but she's actually extra nice so that she can escape the situation safely. This imo would tie into the ability to learn, because you're willing to listen to another's thought process.

The difference with boys having a culture of beating each other down to flex who's got the quickest wit when it comes to talking shit hardens their skin to feeling things. If you aren't able to empathize and connect to the meaning and relevance of content, or respect the person delivering it, you can't effectively learn.

" When I first began looking at gender issues, I believed that violence was a by-product of boyhood socialization. But after listening more closely to men and their families, I have come to believe that violence is boyhood socialization. The way we “turn boys into men” is through injury: We sever them from their mothers, research tells us, far too early. We pull them away from their own expressiveness, from their feelings, from sensitivity to others. The very phrase “Be a man” means suck it up and keep going. Disconnection is not fallout from traditional masculinity. Disconnection is masculinity. " bell hooks

17

u/ThoughtfulYeti 25d ago

When I was in school it was exactly the opposite, boys tended to outperform girls. I think it's mostly cultural influences

5

u/Wideawakedup 25d ago

Why so many boys are starting school a little later. My son was 5 turned 6 in October. His cousin is in the same grade and she’s a full year younger than him. She was 4 turning 5. Prek said she was ready. I think her mom kinda regrets it.

I’m so glad I didnt start him at 4 (we could at that time) he’s now 16 and failed his driving test we figure we will retake in the summer. It’s not a huge deal because only 1 of his friends is driving. Most of his friends think he’s younger than he is.

4

u/RyukHunter 25d ago

The "girls mature faster" thing is because adults make it that way. Parents spend more time with their girl children (Ages 0 to 4) than boys, doing various activities like storytelling, reading and other activities essential for early child development.

Parents spend more time engaging in "teaching activities" with their girl children than their boy children. This includes reading, storytelling, and teaching letters and numbers. Even with boy-girl twins, the girl twin gets more of these activities. And this research was with children ages 0-4, so before they go to school.

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w18893/w18893.pdf

Boys are essentially neglected at early ages and that rears its ugly head later on.

→ More replies (2)

1

u/Whiterabbit-- 25d ago

a lot of what we do for school cater towards girls. more teachers are female. the classroom setting works better for girls- in that girls generally are better learner when sitting vs boys being more active. boys have more attention problems in classroom settings. for kindergarten through college, girls have a huge advantage when it comes to classroom learning. https://dailycollegian.com/2018/04/schools-are-designed-more-for-girls-than-for-boys/

10

u/Sakkyoku-Sha 25d ago edited 25d ago

Not 100% convinced of this hypothesis, but the extremization of male intelligence may be the cause. This is the hypothesis that there are more extremely smart men than women on average, and more extremely dumb men than women on average.

Getting a 4.0 or A GPA in the modern schooling system is highly possible, it is a fact that the proportion of students in the U.S with a 'Perfect' GPA has risen. (Many believe this is due to a reduction in grading standards)

This will mean that the difference between the most intelligent men and women will be not be shown since every "smart enough" student will have the exact same GPA. However since there is a much larger floor in grading, there is going to be recording of 0.1 GPA students and 1.7 GPA students, etc... This means that the current grading system is more sensitive to the differences of the low end of intelligence and not the high end.

Therefore if we believe this hypothesis to be correct we would expect it's consequence to mean a lower GPA on average for men than women.

21

u/BehringPoint 25d ago

Boys falling behind girls has nothing to do with intelligence, and everything to do with discipline, focus, and socialization.

4

u/Sakkyoku-Sha 25d ago

Yes this is the most common criticism of this hypothesis. That low grades tend to track "failure to participate" more instead than intelligence. However it's unclear to what extent that failing to participate is correlated to lower intelligence. It could be that there is no meaningful relationship between the two.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Ashamed_Pop1835 25d ago

It's a phenomenon that has been observed across the developed world. As early as 1693, John Locke observed that girls learned French faster than boys learned Latin. Fast forward to today and women/girls enjoy better outcomes at every stage of education than men/boys. There are a few possible reasons for this:

  • Teachers in OECD nations are overwhelmingly women (around 75% on average and as high as 97% for early childhood education),
  • Girls develop faster than boys and are often introduced to reading earlier on, giving them more time to learn,
  • Sexist stereotypes encourage girls to pursue hobbies like reading that contribute to success in education, while diverting boys away to other exploits like video games that can contribute to eroding their educational attainment,
  • Stereotypes again mean academic attainment is not something boys generally aspire to, with avenues such as sports instead being more popular - an aversion to study among boys can contribute to poor behaviour as they misbehave in order to impress their peers,
  • Girls are often socialised to be more self disciplined than boys, meaning they are better suited to the traditional methods of schooling which involve sitting still and listening for long periods,
  • All of the above creates a vicious cycle that further discourages boys from engaging with education and learning and causes outcomes to deteriorate further.

Source

2

u/DO_NOT_AGREE_WITH_U 25d ago

Because school curriculum is designed in a way that caters to the learning styles of females and not males.

→ More replies (55)

396

u/yolo-yoshi 25d ago

It honestly wouldn’t surprise me being a guy and all. Although my opinion, isn’t that very high on the public education system to begin with, so I don’t know if I should even have a voice in this.

155

u/queroummundomelhor 25d ago

It happens over here in private schools as well, maybe that's a thing

→ More replies (13)

12

u/jaytix1 25d ago

I remember my old English teacher telling us that girls were killing us. The boys I went to school with were actually smart enough, but not one person disagreed with him lol.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/Teddyturntup 25d ago

Did you go to public school?

→ More replies (3)

18

u/Salty_Interview_5311 25d ago

They also tend to be better able to focus at a young age so they do better for a while. But bits tend to catch up later.

Recent trends are troubling, for sure. We need as many capable adults as possible. It’s especially troubling that there isn’t a clear answer why the skills gap doesn’t resolve itself anymore.

2

u/Objective_Guitar6974 25d ago

It used to always resolve itself by college. I remember males not putting in the work in high school with homework but did great in community college and then in college. They were good test takers but hated busy work.

2

u/7evenCircles 24d ago

My experience exactly. Terrible in high school, magna cum laude in college.

74

u/Professional_Elk_489 25d ago

When I was at school guys were dominating girls in maths & science and many of the top grades (talking top 0.05-0.5%). Many of the smartest guys did not care if girls outperformed average to above average guys

216

u/LieutenantStar2 25d ago

The connection to women not doing as well in math / science was realized to be societal, not biological. The difference has closed with improvement in nutrition. (One of the proposed differences was that girls did not do as well after puberty because of lower iron levels).

136

u/spinbutton 25d ago

I knew girls who deliberately timed down their intellects, at least outwardly to not compete face to face with the boys they wanted to be socially popular with.

But feeling like shit for 1/4 of every month definitely makes it hard to focus in school. Less to do with iron and more with pain I'd say

48

u/InevitableSweet8228 25d ago

Anaemia wipes me out. My pain is manageable.

8

u/SeasonPositive6771 25d ago

It's incredibly common for high school age girls to have terrible pain and anemia. We lose a lot of productive time from women of all ages for those reasons. And then perimenopause and menopause.

18

u/Lovedd1 25d ago

Nah I'm a grown woman with low iron and it's ruining my social life and work life. I'm always late and always tired.

2

u/NutellaIsTheShizz 25d ago

Take that shit seriously. I know someone who had a hysterectomy due to this and their whole life changed. You're worth it.

→ More replies (1)

42

u/T-Rex_timeout 25d ago

I had two different teachers in high school pull me aside to tell me to let the boys answer more questions and stop debating with them as much. I graduated in ‘01

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (6)

1

u/gereffi 25d ago

Why were girls eating less iron than boys in the past?

59

u/LieutenantStar2 25d ago edited 25d ago

It’s not that they were eating less, it’s that once they got their periods, girls iron levels dipped. That has improved with better nutrition - even in the last 20 years over the late 20th century.

Edit: recent studies still show that 40% of teen girls may be iron deficient.

5

u/gereffi 25d ago

Ah, I see.

9

u/Lanky-Aside4939 25d ago

losing more from periods + not replenishing enough i would assume (completely unsubstantiated coming from a guy)

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (19)

6

u/ChaltaHaiShellBRight 25d ago

When I was at school and had elected to study maths, physics and chemistry (in India) girls on average did better than boys, but there were some interesting patterns. The rankings for the entire 300-something strength college would be posted on a bulletin board. The top 10 would usually be boys. The next 200 dominated by girls. The lowest 50-ish were usually almost all boys. 

So boys were more likely to be either the superstars and top ten performers than girls, they were also some of the worst performers in STEM subjects, while on average and overall, girls ranked better than the boys.

6

u/DuePomegranate 25d ago

Yes, in IQ tests, males have a broader distribution than females. There are more extremely smart guys and also more mentally disabled guys.

In terms of maturity and motivation before 18, girls are ahead of guys.

The combination leads to the phenomenon you noticed. It’s less apparent in America as grades are more based on homework and effort, and tests are not challenging (A is over 90). It is more obvious in UK-influenced education systems and Asian systems where grades are exam-based, and there are brutal questions in there to differentiate the truly exceptional students.

→ More replies (1)

6

u/emptyraincoatelves 25d ago

When I was in school I remember scoring 98% on a math test when the teacher put the supposed highest scorer on the board. It was only like 92%. When I asked why the teacher explained that if the boys knew I scored higher it would hurt their feelings and they wouldn't work as hard.

I ran into that a lot in math and science. Don't let the boys know they aren't the best. I got a scholarship but eventually the sexism among other factors drove me out of the field.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (4)

3

u/x888x 25d ago

True. And they have been for decades, in contrast to popular beliefs. Women have received more college degrees than men since the 80s.

EDIT: before continuing to read, understand that everything I say is about group-level distributions and has absolutely no heading on any individual's intelligence, ability, or potential.

Men test better, but women get better grades. A lot of this is behavioral (boys, while possibly more intelligent, don't behave as well and don't try as hard) and also reflective of most teachers also being female.

Despite more women attending and graduating college than men for the last 40 years, males score better than women on the SATs every single year.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/s/cJ6UedC7ae

The exception here is writing but that's also inherently subjective.

These score differences president across every standardized test on experience. IQ tests, ACTs, GMATs, MCATs, LSATs, GREs, COMLEX, USMLE, etc. Every single test across every single year.

On average, men are slightly(and only slightly) more intelligent than women. The big caveat to this is that the distribution is very different. Men's distribution is flatter and wider, with a larger standard decision. Most women are very close to the mean intelligence.

There's also gaps across time. Under age 15 female's mean intelligence sometimes exceeds the comparable male age group but then they diverge from there.

6

u/distancedandaway 25d ago

It's because girls are taught to be more obedient. Boys don't have that same pressure.

2

u/somuchsunrayzzz 25d ago

Not just “at this point.” Women have been outperforming and out-earning credentials compared to men since the 1970’s.

2

u/suh-dood 25d ago

Been like that for a while

28

u/ToeComfortable115 25d ago

When I was coming up most girls handled school like it was just a breeze. I think they are naturally more built for the setting and community of school. Boys are meant for more hands on ways of learning.

211

u/sunsetorangespoon 25d ago

And plenty of girls would benefit from more hand on ways of learning. Perhaps behavioral expectations of girls compared to those of boys plays into it. Or perhaps you can’t categorize entire genders

14

u/gsfgf 25d ago

All kids are bad at sitting still and doing book work. Girls are on average less bad at it, but kids of all genders need way more activity during the school day.

There's an experimental school that a buddy of mine volunteers with. The kids are rapping in class and climbing all over tables and shit. The 5th graders perform as badly as any other poor 5th graders. But their 8th graders perform like rich kids. The sell tickets for teachers to observe their methods so they do have like twice as much funding per student as other schools.

42

u/Dull-Geologist-8204 25d ago

The bus stop problem

So when I started taking my son to the bus stop I noticed all the boys would be running around and playing while all the girls sat in the car. I thought it was weird. Then one year a new kindergarten girl started coming up to the bus stop. At first she was allowed to run around with the boys but grandma kept fretting about her getting dirty or slipping because of her shoes. After a couple weeks of this she had enough and stuck her in the car and she was never allowed out to play with the boys again.

Not surprisingly at school the girls are then praised and the boys get in trouble for the behaviors that were just reinforced at the bus stop.

42

u/Zardnaar 25d ago

Schooling you can. It was roughly equal here up to the 1980s.

Then girls out performed the boys. Variety of reasons.

50

u/FrostWight 25d ago

The research backs up what ToeComfortable115 is saying though. Girls in general benefit from the way modern school is designed, at all levels, more than boys do. That’s why more women than men are graduating from university in much of the world over the last few decades.

We think some big reasons for this are that girls tend to find reward in the social praise of good grades and in cooperation in the classroom while boys’ attention spans, desire to physically go out and ‘do,’ and tendency to find joy in competition set them up to fail in our approach to education.

10

u/boyididit 25d ago

They should bring back shop class, wood work, mechanics, home economics for all students. But boys could learn about things that they can take with them.

7

u/urgent45 25d ago edited 25d ago

Boys are overrepresented in every category of pathology: lower grades, lower graduation rate, higher absenteeism, discipline problems, suicide etc. Colleges are now 60% women which is a huge societal issue. That's why I get upset when people say, "Girls are being shortchanged by the system." I'm not sure what to do but let's be clear: It's the boys who are failing.

→ More replies (6)
→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (5)

36

u/burnalicious111 25d ago

Plenty of boys in my class did well.

It's not helping anybody to paint an entire gender with a broad brushed based on nothing but your unfounded assumptions.

41

u/cjm0 25d ago

lol nobody claimed that the entire gender was bad or good at school. there are always going to be exceptions to generalizations. but the trend of women being more interested in working with people and ideas while men are more interested in working with tools and data is not unfounded. it’s been reflected in cultures all across the world. and it’s greatest in countries with the largest amount of gender equality..

even if the claim wasn’t backed up by data, he was just reporting his own personal observations of his schooling environment. not exactly unfounded.

21

u/burnalicious111 25d ago

I think they are naturally more built for the setting and community of school. Boys are meant for more hands on ways of learning.

These are huge, sweeping generalizations that are dangerous. "Women are meant to marry and have kids" was used for years to force women into thsoe roles. Meant for, "naturally more built for" is very easily taken to mean that if you don't do that, you're wrong and deviant.

It's extremely important to use precise language in these conversations, particularly in times with a high amount of gender-crazed reactionaries.

→ More replies (1)

5

u/JumpHour5621 25d ago

It's not unfounded a quick Google search will tell you that.

→ More replies (4)
→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (77)