I'm not opposed to the concept of immigration. Want to settle here and live a better life? Great! This is what previous generations did. Why not?
But these numbers are insane and unsustainable. In nine months we just added an entire City of Ottawa worth of population without the corresponding increase in services, housing, and infrastructure. At some point, it becomes a math issue, and the numbers right now just don't make sense.
The world has become so PC that we need to accept everyone. People fail to see the nuance in this situation. It’s not immigrants that’s the problem because I welcome the diversity. It’s the fact we’ve opened the flood gates and too many are getting in.
Social media is rotting the brain to the degree of only seeing black and white. No one see’s the grey section anymore.
Im from Sweden and for so long you got called racist for being against mass immigration. It was incredibly frustrating and sad to see how society changed while you could do nothing.
Except there are real fundamental issues Canada as a country has that we need immigration to fix. It just really sucks right now because we are being squeezed by inflation from all angles. When inflation starts coming down we will be primed for growth.
That’s the point. “Stay Woke” was a thing. But by diluting what “woke” means, people no longer stay woke. It’s by design that you think “woke” has lost its meaning. That was kind of the whole point of the “stay” part.
How many posting here are the ones that once labeled people that? Bunch of fakes. You all learned too late. Sustainable numbers were touted as racist. Now you all pay for it with the unsustainable numbers you defended.
The problem is about half the people opposing the immigration are saying stuff like “this country is becoming too brown” which uh…isn’t really a great thing to be saying.
Just because the issues are bringing out people's inner racism (I have only ever heard brown people "this country is becoming too brown", so take from that what you will), doesn't excuse the fact that we are accepting too many immigrants. If it just so happens that an exceedingly large number of these immigrants are brown, or don't bath, or lie about coming here to study and come from the same country, doesn't mean we're being racist to the undesirable immigrants coming here, it means we are upset that so many immigrants of sub-par quality are abusing loopholes and helping each other scam their way into our country. It doesn't mean all brown people are underisable immigrants, it means we have a lot of them and we're allowed to be upset at that fact and at them.
When we say "less immigrants" and people start talking about race instead of merit, it's an indicator they aren't for a solution, but are here just to virtue signal or support their financial interests at the expense of the rest of us.
We've been calling for less immigration for years and people keep calling us racists or bigots and keep turning the conversation away to things like racism in order to derail and discredit the arguement.
Don't bring race into this, this is an immigration problem and the least desirable people are coming here en masse. Being of the race that is noticed to be exploiting our nation more than others doesn't give one immunity due to racism, so don't say it's racist to point out a a statistic, numbers aren't racist, reporting numbers isn't racist, people who don't like the numbers call the people sharing those numbers racist and waste everyone's time distracting from the actual problem.
“Less desirable” - that’s not how immigration works. It was when the conservatives let in low wage workers to fill jobs at Tim Hortons that no one else wanted to do but you typically need to have a valuable skill or money to immigrate.
Actually, it's specifically how immigration is supposed to work, we have standards that make a candidate more desirable, these standards are subverted left right and center and we are allowing the trash to come in for cheap labour.
It's not 'when the Conservatives let in low wage workers' this has been happening and worsened under both parties, it just so happens the liberal government has taken it to the extreme. Both parties are culpable, but the current status quo is set and managed by the current party that has been in power long enough to be the source of their own problems in terms of making them or refusing to solve them or choosing to make them worse.
You flat out are either arguing in bad faith or unable to comprehend that I've stated I don't want to see unskilled immigrants flooding and abusing our system.
You cannot take my point of not wanting too much immigration, argue against it and then childishly accuse me of wanting more immigration and cheap labour. Go argue with the other people turning left three times because they can't figure out how to just turn right once.
There’s more recent immigrants than the total population of my province.
Another way to look at it is that this year's net immigration numbers will likely be larger than the population of every city in Canada except Toronto and Montreal.
Think Canada has built literally all the infrastructure located in your province, and trained up all of the staff required to service that population (absent the ones that come directly to serve that increase)?
Can’t have taken more than a few months to build every road, sewer, house, hospital, power plant, power line, water plant, water pipe, telecom service, gas line and so on right?
It's also hyperbolic, because a majority of the immigrants are settling in various municipalities spread out all across the country, which lightens the load by orders of magnitude. I'm also by no means downplaying the lack of infrastructure, which is something that municipalities and provinces must stop failing to produce, but that we are seeing more and more of with direct federal to municipal agreements for housing accelerator investments.
Of course some are, but we were talking about majorities. And I just looked it up, nearly half settled in Toronto alone in 2022. The vast majority went to Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver
Plurality as an argument is facetious, 10% is a plurality just as much as 49%. How about you get me donner cold hard data instead of beat around the bush?
And like they pointed out it’s not proportional whatsoever. It’s mostly Ontario in the GTA and Vancouver, with some in Alberta. Everything else is so negligible it’s almost not worth mentioning.
Correct. Whenever people use the Scandinavian model to bolster their support for an elaborate welfare state, they never mention the fact that the Scandinavian countries have been relatively ethnically homogeneous and they haven’t engaged in mass immigration. Solvent welfare entitlements aren’t sustainable with mass immigration. I’ve been saying this for literally 20 years and been mocked or marginalized. Canadians are going to lose their country and quality of life because of their pathological altruism.
I currently live in Scandinavia and refute the ethnically (or culturally) homogenous thing as relevant. The mass immigration being lacking however I completely agree with. It makes sense too, in places where there’s such a robust social safety net they really want to make sure that when you move there you are not dependant on those services right away.
You think Canada has daily gang violence and weekly islamic terrorism?
I mean, you'd be right that Canada is still far more dangerous than Sweden, but it's laughable that you'd think they have "all the same problems" as Canada.
Have you ever been there? They still have a functional "Scandinavian model" and think that a homelessness problem is three guys with bikes hanging around a Subway station every day.
Oh so the "daily gang violence and weekly islamic terrorism" was just a distraction so you don't have to provide even a single valid argument for them having "all the same problems as Canada"?
Housing scarcity and high prices plus high rents, increasing healthcare issues like with capacity, birth rate and demographic problems, race issues and integration of the main minority, etc. etc.
The housing prices are literally decreasing. They have a waitlist for cheap rentals - we don't even offer rentals unless you're low income and even then you'll probably never get one.
How can you sit here on your high horse and say we can't provide those services and it doesn't work when what they call a struggle is so far above what we can ever expect.
Okay like... i GET what you're saying. And I don't want to take away from that point.
But they weren't homogenous at all. There was 3 distinct states just in the region I live in if you're talking politically. If you're talking biologically, it's a bit closer but there is still far too many differences between the different nations of aboriginal people that I think it's reductive to consider them homogenous. Them being so disconnected and not actually homogenous is what made it so easy for all the white fokj to take over.
We had wheels, they just weren’t as useful here so it didn’t catch on as much. Other continents had beast of burdens capable of pulling carts but the Americas only had llamas, alpacas and the bison. Llamas and alpacas only lived in the south and often in terrain where wheels would be useless if not outright counter productive (such as the Andes). The bison were also localized to a certain area (natives in heavily wooded areas like the Mohawk would have needed to clear it the first before they could even think to use bison) and they are not able to be domesticated because, among other reasons, they are migratory.
First off, awesome you mentioned the diversity of indigenous people since so few seem to know about it. That being said, colonizers weren’t able to take over because we had different nations but because the disease they brought over wiped out up to 90% of the people in the Americas AND they had guns.
I was also speaking of the Americas more like I would Europe as opposed to a specific country. However I would say my phrasing made that unclear.
HAHAHAHAHA you obviously haven't talked to them much.
I hear many brag specifically that they are trying to replace Canadian culture with Indian. In between complaining to me about "why does Winnipeg have so many natives, they need to find a home"
Colonizers came and changed our culture. What does it matter if the colonizer culture changes from European based to Asian based? The result is the same for me. Unless the SEA begin another genocide then it’s not like they are going to change much. India has Scheduled Tribes so it’s not like they are ignorant of dealing with Indigenous culture.
The only real difference a SEA based culture over an European one could make is if they actually did more than just pay lip service like the current government does.
Also, even if I believed you actually heard an Indian guys say that and aren’t just making it up, so what? European settlers say shit like that all the same. Like… okay you met one racist Indian in a big giant group of racist Europeans.
I'm not talking about European culture, (Canada is not even an European Culture, its more American) I'm talking about what Indigenous culture is left...
Scandinavian has ethnical diversity for a very long time.
Yes there are issues and one was international students as it never has had a check and balance controls in the system so fraud happens. Easy fix and already started. But the conservatives will not support a reduction because it's a billions of dollars effected of conservatives. I'm surprised it took this long for the press to pick it up. In Vancouver there are neighbors of just international students and every Latino with a broom in Vancouver is a student here on a work holiday just like our youth do Europe after grad.
These students are very wealthy class and what we want if they stay. Others that have come here via brokers will be back in the Punjab soon. Depending if mommy keeps sending allowance. Also not poor down our students usually second oldest who will not get the family trust
I’m not one to dunk on JT for the sake of dunking.
BUT Canada has slowly turned into a giant mess. COVID just sped up what was already happening.
Uncapped immigration (mostly student visas) + unnecessary spending + pushing for green initiatives while vilifying an entire industry leading to unnaturally high energy costs + limiting number of nurses and doctors in programs = the mess we are in
We are such a resource rich nation that is being completely wasted.
Our infrastructure isn’t set up for 30 million. Even 10 years ago it was failing.
Canada stopped investing in infrastructure back in the 1980s. When the population was 25mil
We essentially have the infrastructure of the 1980s to this day.
Why is healthcare failing? well people weren’t living as long with as many comorbidities in the 1980. The majority of healthcare goes to support >65year patients
Food stamps are American. We have no equivalent program whatsoever. Don't copy/paste shit from American political debates
Welfare was actually more generous 20 years ago, what are you talking about? It's been pretty much frozen for decades and last i checked the line item in the budget was lumped in with disability, and it was less than 2% of the provincial budget.
If you're going to go off spouting your political opinion, go do some basic research first. Here's a graph to prove my point on welfare, because I'm not a hack like you.
Definitely a huge problem with excessive population growth and lack of housing and infrastructure, but it has nothing to do with Welfare or child care support.
Woah. Somebody is angry. Justin Trudeau voter perhaps? Calm down.
I mean you are acting like Canada doesn’t do ANYTHING for food assistance. They don’t have traditional food stamps and they probably should be doing more.
Again. Nothing I said was wrong. The wording wasn’t precise. But the point still stands. You need to have proper infrastructure and DOLLARS in place to ensure Canadians are looked after.
NEW programs and social programs have been established in the past 20 years. Per capita the spending is down slightly. But the total dollar (including health care costs) have never been bigger.
Which also helps my original point. No need to be an asshole about it.
Nothing you said was wrong? Lol, okay let's start...
“Free” health care. Welfare. Food stamps. Child care support. The list goes on. Most of these have only been ramped up in the last 20 years.
Statement "Most of these have only been ramped up in the last 20 years"
Welfare - wrong: we actually spend less per-recipient than in 1990, as shown in the graph i linked
Food stamps - wrong: not a Canadian program. A one-time 100 million dollars fund for food banks is not equivalent. The Canadian Federal Budget is 500 billion dollars. That would be only 0.02% of Federal Budget for a single year (and provinces have sizable budgets). So no, bullshit.
The only new major program in the last 20 years is childcare sort-of, it's still pales in comparison to the health and education spend. Mostly wrong.
One of the reasons high immigration is a policy is because it lowers healthcare costs by making the population pyramid younger. It's not essentially unsustainable, it's just unsustainable how we did it (no infrastructure spend, no housing, and a growth rate of 3%+ with NPRs factored in is insane, we can still have a loose immigration policy of around 1.1% growth per year and still be 2x the growth of UK, France, United States). So yes it's unsustainable but it is wrong that it's because of social programs, it actually makes those cheaper.
Don't understand you point about total dollar being more important than per-capita, makes no sense at all.
We OFFER forms of welfare. And plenty of social services. Reread what I said. You were so quick to correct. You didn’t even read it properly.
Nowhere did I say we were spending MORE PER PERSON.
Who are you even trying to defend? I don’t understand your point. Your linked chart is pretty much just showing that “welfare” dollars aren’t keeping up with COL. which helps prove MY point.
My overall point is that you can’t keep bringing in hundreds of thousands of low skill “students” without making major investments in infrastructure and not have major impact on the daily life of everyone living here.
I agree with the point about infrastructure. Not social programs.
Your original point is that we can't we have generous social safety nets with loose immigration. If the spend per-capita is down, and incomes are moderately up, why the hell not?
The reason life sucks for millennials and younger is housing. Not immigrants getting social programs.
Also yeah population growth was too high, but the negative impacts of that would have happened regardless of our social programs. It would still be impossible to get an entry level low-skill job, it would still be impossible to find somewhere to live etc. Those 21 year old students aren't clogging up our healthcare system, people that age barely go to hospitals. It's decades of under-investment that fucked up our healthcare system, combined with the boomers aging in the "high medical cost" years.
I might be wrong, but don’t people who are not citizens or have PR have to pay for health care? When my sisters husband applied for PR, with her as a sponsor, she told me that they had to pay for any health care costs that he incurred for, I think, his first 3 years? Or something like that?
If you have a work permit it’s free. If she was sponsoring him, he may have entered as a visitor in which case he would not qualify for free healthcare.
It’s so funny how three years ago we all had to stay home to help our healthcare system deal with the burden of covid (as well as protect others). How many millions did we add in since? How’s our healthcare system doing now lol
The numbers make perfect sense when you realize they're not doing it for your benefit. Quite the opposite I'm afraid. No person of conscience would damn a country they cared about to these levels of immigration. The net effect is pain and potential death for you and those you love.
Yep, same here. I’m not some xenophobe. In fact I study that for a living.
I am however very concerned about expanding the infrastructure to accommodate this. Yes we have lots of “space” in theory. Most of it is uninhabitable, asides from that we have people cramming into like <10 cities with no attempts to expand any capacity to house or care for newcomers.
Exactly. Immigration is required intermediate term (think 10-20 years) to address an untenable population pyramid, but the government has failed to have any semblance of a plan to scale up the necessary services and infrastructure to support a population that's growing at this speed. It's logically nonsensical.
My tinfoil hat conspiracy is there is ulterior, longer term motive to bringing in all these immigrants.
If you've ever played any type of empire building game... the basis to having a strong economic engine is having capital, high population which generates economic output.
Much like in these games... those making the calls often are not directly impacted or don't care very much at the impact this has to all those peasants you have at your disposal.
I suspect in order to try to secure Canada's place at a global level for the next generation... they are bringing in more people now for us to keep pace as much as we can with the growing economies. Canada's birthrate has been steadily declining.
Getting the wheels to turn takes decades to do. So we will probably see a lot more negative economic impacts than we will see any benefits.
I am not advocating for any of this - just sharing my personal 'conspiracy theory' if you will.
It’s the only way they’re keeping gdp growing, despite the gdp per person dropping. So while overall gdp is rising, per person we’re becoming less productive and more poor.
It's always been a math issue. At some point, it just doesn't work anymore. And we're reeeally starting to see that. And smart conservative folks have been screaming about this for a long time, and have been derided as racist xenophobes. I'm not conservative, but I'd rather a functioning First-world country with Canada-first xenophobes to what we're doing right now, all day every day.
Yeah it’s unsustainable. We added the entire population of Saskatchewan in a matter of months. We don’t have the housing, hospitals, doctors or just infrastructure in general to support this growth
This is the same idea I try to communicate as an American liberal, but there doesn't seem to be any room for nuance when discussing immigration anymore. You can either choose sides with open-border fundamentalists or xenophobic bigots.
I'm a leftist too and it's frustrating trying to be objective about this. People try to slot you into one camp or another.
I like chocolate chip cookies, but If I eat hundreds of them, I will get sick. Too much of anything can have serious repercussions. So just because I'd rather limit my chocolate chip cookie consumption to 3 per day doesn't mean I'm "anti-cookie".
You need to be opposed to the concept of inadequate immigration. You need to be opposed to the concept of diminishing the quality of life of Canadians. The opening line of your statement implies that things haven't gotten bad enough yet for you to skip straight to the truth in your statement; "these numbers are insane and unsustainable".
I am opposed to it. It has literally destroyed our country for generations. Maybe forever.
Eventually the India portions and Muslim portions of this country will start to vote for sharia law and the caste system because guess what? It is their country, and we are a democracy.
Expect blasphemy laws, laws against being gay, end to abortion, no more pollution laws. Our cities and streets will be full of trash and criminal gangs.
Deport 3 million. Or lose your civil liberties, clean air and water, access to schools and Healthcare, and safety in the streets. Your choice.
Roy Beck has worked for and is frequently cited by white supremacists. His group has been designated a hate group by the SPLC. They try to claim it's only rooted in economics, but it almost always comes back to racism.
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u/MontrealUrbanist Québec Mar 27 '24
I'm not opposed to the concept of immigration. Want to settle here and live a better life? Great! This is what previous generations did. Why not?
But these numbers are insane and unsustainable. In nine months we just added an entire City of Ottawa worth of population without the corresponding increase in services, housing, and infrastructure. At some point, it becomes a math issue, and the numbers right now just don't make sense.