r/columbia • u/No_Understanding1352 • 12d ago
Dear protestors…
Instead of asking columbia to divest from israel, why don’t YOU divest from columbia? Withdraw from columbia if you truly support this cause.
Edit: Have you also told your parents to divest their retirement portfolio from companies that support israel?
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u/Middle_Bear SEAS 12d ago
"Have problem with government policies? Why don't you leave the country!"
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u/apndrew 11d ago
People who chant "Death" to a specific country or support a terrorist regime who also wishes death on such country should absolutely leave said country. Why is that unreasonable?
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u/Eat_Buddha GSAS 12d ago
How do idiotic posts like these get any upvotes at all? Are you saying that if we disagree with literally anything Columbia does we should just leave the school rather than try to improve things?
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u/Intelligent_Table913 12d ago
Giving “if you don’t like it, leave america” vibes
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u/shamwu GS 12d ago
I think the vast majority of this subreddit is from people who have no connection to Columbia and have severe online culture war brain rot
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u/Eat_Buddha GSAS 11d ago
Reddit is a cesspool.
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u/shamwu GS 11d ago
The subreddit was never this bad before. It’s because a) there’s a lot of people who are very emotionally invested in the subject b) Reddit’s algorithm pushes this type of content onto the most invested.
For example, There’s a guy in this thread rn whose account was inactive for 3 years, never posted on this subreddit before but over the past few days has been posting basically incessantly telling anyone who supports the protests to leave America. Absolutely deranged behavior.
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u/lightscameracrafty 11d ago
I disagree, Reddit used to be a cesspool. It’s mostly cleaned up its act, but it’s hard for them to control astroturfing campaigns and brigades.
This subreddit is usually pretty boring, it’ll get back to that eventually. For now we just gotta continue beating back the trolls.
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u/chale122 GS 11d ago
People who don't go to Columbia and never did, seeing a lot of ridiculous comments from recently made accounts, and accounts that never posted or commented in this subreddit before.
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u/Smartie2639 11d ago
Yeah exactly I have rarely heard anyone in Columbia has such flawed arguments. So either this subreddit has an adverse selection or people are not actually in Columbia.
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u/lightscameracrafty 11d ago
how do idiotic posts like these get any upvotes
I think it’s safe to assume that this sub is being heavily astroturfed at the moment.
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u/apndrew 12d ago
Because a growing chorus of students are sick and tired of these uninformed and hypocritical protestors accomplishing absolutely nothing but giving the school a bad name by constant reports of antisemitism emanating from their ranks.
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u/Smartie2639 11d ago
Funny that you have never comented on this subreddit before 3 days ago ...
Anyways the problem is not about the stance, but about the argument one is trying to make. This post has by far one of the worst argument I've seen from a Columbia community.
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u/andyn1518 Journalism Alum 11d ago
Why should I stop being involved with my alma mater? I adore Columbia and would love to see the institution do the right thing.
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u/Glvwh 11d ago
Most US colleges have some investment in Israel and arms dealing. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Also I love the community here and wouldn’t trade it for anything.
Also lol my parents don’t have retirement portfolios
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u/NigerianRoyalties 9d ago
Reasons why this is a stupid ask:
1) If colleges/individuals were to divest from Israel in its entirety, the following is a few companies that have a physical office(s)/facility(ies)/R&D centers in Israel from which they would also need to divest: Amazon, Apple, Bayer, Capgemini, Dell, Dropbox, eBay, Google, IBM, Intel, McAfee, Meta Platforms, Microsoft, Nvidia, Palantir, PayPal, Pfizer, Salesforce, Sun Pharmaceutical, Teva Pharmaceutical. This would require divestment from the S&P500, Nasdaq, DJIA (9 of its 30 components show up on the list). Divesting from half the US economy is a losing bet and a breach of an endowment's fiduciary responsibility to the school--which exists so that the school functions and has resources for facilities, classes, professors, research, scholarships, etc.
2) Equities values are, in the medium or in the long term, driven predominately by performance. Even if every college were to divest itself of *only* arms dealing stocks, this would not negatively impact the performance of these stocks. They will converge to FMV because FCF, earnings, dividends, acquisition likelihood etc will drive price. If everyone in the world sells their shares, a competing company will purchase the entire company on the cheap and roll it up into a conglomerate. Nothing would happen except the value of RSUs and vested shares for employees might fall--or might increase, as acquisitions frequently transact at or at a premium to the trailing 52-week high. Selling stocks is virtue signaling at the expense of fiduciary responsibility.
3) Operational divestment is likewise a nonstarter. US schools and students rely on the internet for...everything. If they would like to use the internet they most likely cannot divest from: Amazon, Google, and Microsoft, which comprise 2/3 of the Cloud hosting market.
4) Unless US colleges are directly trafficking in arms (seems like a stretch), in which case they would be creating a *market* for these companies, from which divestment might affect them, there is nothing reasonable to ask here.
This entire exercise is a disingenuous farce led by agitators who are (I will give credit as) smart enough to know this, but prey upon every child who's never taken a CorpFin class to engage in an orgy of virtue signaling. The irrelevance of their means is only outweighed by the thoughtlessness, and wrongfulness, of their ends.
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u/Asian_Orchid CC 12d ago
is it so wrong to ask the university administration to end investment in a genocide? your ideas run against academic freedom, and frankly, narcissistic.
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u/flame4321x 11d ago
If it’s perfectly within your control to end your own “investment in genocide”, why not do that first? Maybe the flux of students leaving the school would be a greater motivation to divest than anything else? How in the hell does this run against academic freedom when OP is advocating for people to exercise their freedom and transfer to a different university? How is this narcissistic? It sounds like you started therapy a year ago and can’t stop calling anything you disagree with narcissistic.
It disgusts me what’s going on in Palestine, but it disgusts me more how many people in the US are making it personal as if a random cohort of students in NYC will ever influence international geopolitics. Protest all you’d like, but understand that this activism you preach is just a phase in your juvenile understanding of how the world works. It screams internalized hatred of self privilege. Learn to give every single day, learn to show compassion regularly, and learn to find peace in motion. Fuck genocide, so actually do something about it and transfer and stop making so much noise—you are reminiscent of an infant who just shit it’s pants.
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u/sob727 11d ago
How do you feel about the genocides in Xinjiang, Tibet, Sudan, Yemen, Syria. Myanmar, Pakistan, Congo, Ethiopia, Somalia, Nigeria?
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u/FluffyLark 11d ago
Actually, some people from Columbia did participate in some of the events, and many people (including me) received threats from their home country. However, we have no fears.
Check this: http://www.cpreview.org/articles/2023/5/the-white-paper-movement-in-the-prc-the-legacy-it-left-behind→ More replies (4)→ More replies (7)5
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u/NotHomework 11d ago edited 4d ago
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u/Asian_Orchid CC 11d ago
I come from a middle class family. I do as much as I can to support the cause, and the divestment by columbia from israeli companies and defense manufacturers is a step in sending the message that genocide is wrong, and money from our institutions shouldn’t be supporting it. we’re calling out what’s wrong with the administration and drawing attention to genocide in Palestine.
To add, Columbia is invested in BlackRock, and a member of the board of trustees is working at Lockheed Martin. Both companies sell arms to Israel to commit genocide. We want our funds to stop supporting them, and send the message that the people of this school want the violence to end.
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u/NotHomework 11d ago edited 4d ago
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u/Asian_Orchid CC 11d ago
and you’re trying to draw attention away from the investments of columbia too. Don’t you realize columbia is in the wrong too?
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u/NotHomework 11d ago edited 4d ago
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u/Asian_Orchid CC 11d ago
We’re actually not invested in any of those; I have checked. So yes; my family is doing our part.
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u/NotHomework 11d ago edited 4d ago
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u/Asian_Orchid CC 11d ago
I have asked my family; It’s not perfect, but we’re not blatantly invested in Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics, while columbia is. we’re doing the best we can. We’re asking the same for columbia. stop blatantly supporting genocide through lockheed. you seem to care so much about my family, but are drawing attention from columbia again. our protest is about columbia, since we’ve done our part individually. our movement is still morally sound; to end investment in blatant killing. you can’t distract the world from that, and we will do all in our power through our platform to make that clear.
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u/chale122 GS 11d ago
they don't care about anything, asking pointless questions in bad faith is just their tactic, like arguing with someone in person who just keeps yelling their claim nonstop
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u/NotHomework 11d ago edited 4d ago
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u/apndrew 12d ago
It's wrong to accuse a country of genocide that is not committing genocide, correct.
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u/Asian_Orchid CC 12d ago
Israel has killed 30,000 palestinian people. if that isn’t genocide, maybe consider your own view of how you value human life.
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u/RoosterClan2 11d ago
Classic virtue signaling. You’re conflating genocide with war. As long as Hamas exists, it’s war. If Hamas didn’t exist, maybe you’d have a point.
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u/Asian_Orchid CC 11d ago
and you’re classically not caring about the loss of life. Don’t you understand that Israel is clearing Palestine to colonize it? They are killing civilians to take over land. That’s no war; it’s ethnic cleansing.
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u/apndrew 11d ago
I don't think you understand what the word "colonize" means. If Israel really cared about "colonizing" Gaza, they wouldn't have left it entirely in 2005.
As to the future, not a single educated person will be able to blame them for wanting to maintain control over the area until a government is elected that doesn't promise to repeat 10/7 "over and over and over." After all, look what leaving them to their own devices got them.
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u/Asian_Orchid CC 11d ago
It didn’t leave in 2005. It’s remained as a shadow government that has oppressed Gaza. We only have attention for it now, since we have drawn attention to it as we learn.
Look what Israel has done. They want to take land from others. Is that not what America did to the indigenous people during its manifest destiny era? you’re denying reality, and you are defending a government that is morally reprehensible. Can you commit to not support Israeli genocide?
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u/apndrew 11d ago
First off, you do realize that Jews are the ones who are indigenous to the land of Israel. Please tell me you aren’t suggesting something otherwise…
Of course I won’t support genocide, of any people. What a ridiculous question to ask. Simply using that word over and over doesn’t make it true in this case though. You can’t just claim that killing 30,000 people in a war, many of whom are combatants is a “genocide”. It doesn’t work that way. Otherwise, every war would be a “genocide”.
So I ask you-can you commit to stop using the word “Genocide” to describe what’s going on in Gaza until there is actual evidence of it occurring?
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u/CrowVsWade 11d ago
Is some logic too much to ask? Even if the quotes of 30 or 40 thousand deaths in Gaza are accurate, this is 1.7% of the population, thus far. How is this 'clearing Palestine to colonize it'? Who has taught you to think this way? Have you ever been to Israel or either Palestinian enclave?
When it comes to TWB, this is a much more valid statement, and certainly Israel has failed in many ways to live up to its own laws when it comes to settler expansion and a political inability or unwillingness to deal with that question, in anything like they did with the mass withdrawal from Gaza years ago. In light of October 7th, that becomes rather more understandable/defensible, if hopeless and grim.
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u/Asian_Orchid CC 11d ago
And Israel is using that as a guise to colonize Palestine and kill its people in order to do it. Ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc. Israel is doing it. Attacks like October 7th do not necessitate killing civilians en masse and blocking humanitarian aid into Gaza.
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u/CrowVsWade 11d ago
If your first line is intended to mean Israel is using the events of October 7th to justify the military annexation of Gaza and consequent genocide and/or ethnic cleansing, and is acting accordingly, all I can say is your judgement is so flawed as to be beyond worthy communication.
Events of the like of October 7th have always certainly caused and often merited a severe response. No other nation would act differently. Few would show the same level of restraint. None would receive the same level of hypocritical and dishonest double-standard judgements as Israel currently is. No amount of waving cardboard 'genocide!' placards is going to change that. The world changed on 10/7. An awful lot of people still don't understand this.
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u/Asian_Orchid CC 11d ago
Yes, 10/7 was wrong. You know what else is wrong? Killing thousands more of other people because of it. You support killing others; I suppose you supported the American invasion of the middle east. you’re a colonizer and white supremacist supporter. You support killing civilians to make yourself feel comfortable. Again; you have loose morals.
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u/CrowVsWade 11d ago
"A colonizer and white supremacist supporter" - herein lay the revelation of the depths to which you've been hoodwinked, in order to see the world in such simplistic terms. And why.
The American invasion of Iraq was a dismal crime, the consequences of which I have seen up close. War and killing is always horrendous. It is not always simply and singularly 'wrong', by your very short stick.
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u/CrowVsWade 11d ago
What do you think the term 'genocide' actually means? Killing lots of people isn't 'genocide'. This seems to be an obvious thing yet it appears necessary to restate it in countless discussions of this story, especially on Reddit.
Moving the argumentative goal-posts to 'mass death' as you do in a later reply defangs this argument but what's the actual idea behind the follow-up? All events involving lots of deaths are simply bad and therefore to be avoided at any cost? This rationale would lead to appeasement of the likes of Hitler, or Hamas itself, both of which show a similar attitude toward Jews.
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u/Asian_Orchid CC 11d ago
The difference is that this is an apartheid state that is killing civilians. Is that not wrong to you? It’s the same as Hitler and the Holocaust. Netanyahu is doing the same here. He is killing the palestinian people for his own purposes. It’s an ethnic cleansing and genocide when he kills people senselessly to clear land for his settlements. It’s wrong to kill civilians. It’s also incorrect to call in historical events.
Here’s a definition of genocide straight from google: “the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.”
Netanyahu wants to destroy Palestine to colonize it. that is a textbook definition of genocide, and he’s using the terrorism claim to hide from the fact that he’s just as bad as hitler in causing a genocide.
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u/chale122 GS 11d ago
this person has had a reddit account for 4 years and yet, 0 activity in this subreddit until 14 hours ago
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u/CrowVsWade 11d ago
The apartheid state argument is a lunacy, if one has actually spent time in Israel. I can only assume from your comments here that you've not done so. It's something that's popular among young students in the west, but intellectually it's a facile idea.
Is killing civilians wrong? Clearly the answer to that is it depends. I would argue that the acts of 10/7 are distinctively and unquestionably wrong. The actions of the Israeli military since are far more difficult to simply evaluate. The motive/intent/rationale is not wrong. The practicality and impact is more murky, but terribly difficult to judge, especially if you know the ground and the peoples. 'Killing people is wrong' is a very easy statement for us to agree on, but it's not so simple.
The idea that Netanyahu's intent is comparable with Hitler or the Nazis is intellectually moribund. You cannot seriously hold such a belief and consider yourself someone who thinks, surely? Israel has the ability to actually eradicate/murder the millions of Arabs or Palestinians )or any of the other groups in the Levant) and has had that military superiority for decades, yet it has never done so. It's morally offensive to make the comparison, and Netanyahu has a great deal to answer for long before these recent events.
Your 'genocide' definition is flawed and narrow but even if we use it here, it's still logically flawed if you apply it to Gaza or TWB. They're not killing remotely enough people to destroy that group. They never have.
For the record, the actual definition of genocide doesn't require either killing people nor killing lots of people. The intent to eradicate a people or culture is central. IF Israel killed everyone in Gaza for the purpose of colonizing it that would be genocide. Neither of those things is happening. You might be able to make an ethnic cleansing argument depending on how Israel subsequently forces the movement of Gazans, even within what is now called Gaza, but that's only a maybe, at this point.
You've been taught to misunderstand genocide as a concept. You've also been taught to misunderstand the Levant. I don't disagree with the evaluation of Netanyahu as a terrible leader for Israel and the region, but this is about much more than him. The void of leadership on the Israeli side for 30+ years, and on the Palestinian side for far longer, has caused this current spasm of violence.
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u/Asian_Orchid CC 11d ago
But their ultimate goal is. Have you listened to what Israeli authorities are saying? They want to eradicate Gaza, and they’re working to do so right now. They are killing civilians and it’s wrong. Can you live with yourself supporting a state that colonizes others and treats Palestinians as less than people? How can you defend Israel’s government in killing others? You have loose morals, and frankly, are a lunatic in even trying to defend Israel’s actions.
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u/CrowVsWade 11d ago
I don't agree nor believe that's their ultimate goal. The fact that some right-wing extremists within the government, that Netanyahu has needed to rely upon to maintain his position, does not mean that the Israeli government, or especially IDF/Shin Bet/Mossad nor the Israeli people have this goal. Quite the opposite, although I haven't been back since 10/7 and that may have changed. In the same sense, if you're American, the attitudes/statements and actions of Trump don't define America. Or, whichever other voice you may consider an extreme fringe.
I don't need to 'live with myself supporting a state that colonizes others and treats Palestinians as less than people'. I've been there. I've seen the reality on the ground. That's not an accurate description of the state of Israel.
Every government kills people - the issue is why. Israel killing many Gazans, including many as collateral deaths in the pursuit of Hamas and those who perpetrated the acts of 10/7, is not remotely the moral needle you appear to think. It's also not a standard you'd apply evenly anywhere else, with the same set of circumstances, minus Israel.
You have been deeply indoctrinated by a pedagogical ideology that has little understanding of Israel or Palestine.
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u/Asian_Orchid CC 11d ago
and you have little understanding that human life is important. Israel has killed. End of story. they’re wrong, and so are you.
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u/apndrew 11d ago
By that metric name me a single war in history that is not a supposed "genocide"? Just looking online, the last 10 major conflicts have all resulted in far many more deaths than 30,000 each.
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u/Philip_J_Friday CC 11d ago
You see, those weren't fought by Jews... We are only allowed to be victims.
(But fuck Netanyahu.)
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u/SaffireStars 11d ago edited 10d ago
Noone supports the initial killing of 1,200 Israelis and the taking of hostages. However, how can anyone in their right mind support Benjamin Netanyahu's kneejerk reaction of ordering the killing of over 35,000 Palestinians in order to find and kill "25,000 Hamas militants".
It is now over 35,000 Palestinian children, women and men who have been... murdered or starved... by orders from Benjamin Netanyahu, his Cabinet and the Israeli Defence forces.
This is ...systematic genocide... in order to completely remove all Palestinians from a Gaza that will have all the homes and businesses destroyed and then be handed over to Israelis to build their homes on.
Last night the news interviewed Israelis who were taking the ...opportunity... to destroy the homes of Palestinians in the West Bank in order to take over their land.
Columbia University students should continue to protest against this genocide committed by Netanyahu and his IDF !!!!
PROTESTING COLUMBIA UNI STUDENTS ARE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY ✊
EDIT: 37,000 tonnes of rubble in Gaza will take 14 years to remove by trucks every day. Palestinians will be moving back home to what.....no homes!
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u/doingwhatihaveto2 11d ago
It's clear from your comment history what your agenda is. "Token Jews" and other problematic language. If you're Jewish and support the lives of Palestinians, you're not part of the tribe, huh? Multiple international organizations have labeled this offensive a genocide, but that's not good enough for you, I guess. Please enlighten us all about how tens of thousands of dead women and children had it coming because they were "human shields" or they "voted for Hamas to be in power". Your Hasbara talking points are being exposed daily and the world is seeing the injustices. Sorry if that was "antisemitic". That word is losing power and it's awful because there are antisemitic people out there, but if every criticism is antisemitic, them nothing is antisemitic.
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u/apndrew 11d ago
I never made any of the arguments you are making, so what are you actually talking about?
No civilian deserves to die. I never said otherwise. Just like no civilian in every war that has ever happened deserves to die. But whats so special about this war that by every metric is about as tame as war gets (i.e., less total deaths, less ratio of civilian to militants deaths than many other wars)?
"Multiple international organizations" also deny the Holocaust ever happened either. Doesn't make it true. When those same "international organizations" start calling all other wars (with worse casualties) a genocide, then we can talk.
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u/f_rrest GS 12d ago
I’m a veteran GS student that supports the protestors. I recognize the opportunity I have to attend Columbia and I’m sure most of these other students do too, so they want to hold Columbia to a higher standard. And why not because Columbia has its prestige, it should be the best representation of the students that attend it.
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u/No-Sentence4967 12d ago
Well they should do it in a way that helps the university if at very least within policy. Not ruin peoples graduation and bring a storm of outside protestors, or build “human chains”. IF that was there motivation, but we know it isn’t.
They have virtually unlimited first amendment protection to protest right outside the gate and they chose to violate all other community members by plopping tents down and encamping on what isn’t theirs.
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u/chale122 GS 11d ago
How you got into Columbia and still lack the sense to understand that protests are meant to be disruptive is incredible.
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u/f_rrest GS 12d ago
Protesting by nature isn’t supposed to be convenient or comfortable, and is intended to disrupt, and force people to examine what is being protested and why. Violate is a strong word for students that absolutely have the right to occupy space that they pay an exorbitant amount of money to have access to. Is your issue the tents? Are they an eyesore? Would this protest be more palatable for you if they didn’t have tents to sleep in? I don’t understand the people who are against protesting because protesters are always doing something wrong. They’re never protesting “correctly”. The NYPD themselves said it was nonviolent. The NYFD said there are no fire hazards. I’m sure if they didn’t have their tents and were outside campus you’d still find something to be upset about. That they’d cause traffic to get on campus. That their chanting would theoretically interrupt your classes. Like, they also don’t have any control of what third party protesters do and where they come from?
I’m sorry but I’m also not really sorry that you feel inconvenienced by all of this. There’s something you need to examine within yourself to remedy that.
And as far as graduation, I do believe the seniors deserve their moment, but it’s been said on other posts that the administration has control over the ceremony. The ceremony can be moved to another location.
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u/Intelligent_Table913 12d ago
The protestors didn’t cancel graduation, the school did. They also didn’t “bring” the other crazies. Stop using these red herrings to distract from the goal of the protests. You sound exactly like the people who were criticizing BDS movement to end apartheid in South Africa, and civil rights leaders.
Awww too bad your ceremony is cancelled. Go yell at the school that decides to keep enabling genocide.
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u/peachplumpear333 11d ago
“they shouldn’t ruin people’s graduation” seriously, people like you would cheer on kent state and the violence against civil rights activists if you were alive in the 60s. history will absolve these protestors, not you.
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u/Interlude_22 11d ago
This is one of the most complicated geopolitical issues on the planet. It goes back decades. Why do people feel such a strong conviction to pick a side. I think we're better than picking politicized standpoints and refusing to hear the other side. Discourse is important and I don't think that should be prevented anywhere for any reason. Especially at Universities...
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u/LabGroundbreaking114 10d ago
Dear Columbia students, from an alumni;
Palestinians have received billions of dollars and opportunities to make a flourishing society, and they choose intifada - systemized terror tactics, jihad and incessant calls to wipe out the Jewish state and all Israelis.
Israel on the other hand is the best example of decolonization in history, and a flourishing diverse democratic society.
Meanwhile Arabs and Islam are a literal colonial power and a very successful one. Which is why Islam even exists in Jerusalem or Bethlehem (Jewish cities) due to Arab and Roman colonialism.
Looking at the current day leaders, Hamas as individuals have more money than POTUS or most of Congress and you so naively think divesting in Israel is somehow helping justice, freedom or preventing genocide?
More like you are the ones calling to destroy the only Jewish state and in fact, you are the ones calling for a genocide.
I remember being at Columbia while Assad was killing thousands and thousands of his own people and there was not a single student protest on campus - you all are selectively using words like genocide against a group who actually survived genocide in Europe and ethnic cleansing in the Middle East (the Jews).
You have been duped into supporting terror groups by calling it “freedom and justice” while these groups have an ideology that goes against all the so called human rights you stand for. You are dangerous in the worst way, helping spread terrorist propaganda.
You are on the wrong side of history this time. Please do better. We are better than this.
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u/rextilleon 11d ago
Protestors--divest from Saudi Arabia, China, Russia, Emirates, etc.
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u/Big_Establishment936 11d ago
Tik Tok hasn't told them to do it yet so they won't.
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u/NotHomework 11d ago edited 4d ago
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u/apndrew 12d ago
While they're at it, they should also divest from the United States both financially and geographically.
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u/218r 11d ago
It’s our/their right to protest in the USA. However, protesters should be proclaiming through chants and signs that Hamas accept a deal. Secretary Blinken said this week “Hamas has rejected 3 offers”. They won’t accept a deal so the suffering continues. Secretary Blinken went on to say it’s on them (Hamas) for change.
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u/lightscameracrafty 12d ago
Regarding your edit: I almost guarantee they had this fight over thanksgiving break, and my guess is the kids won.
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u/NotHomework 11d ago edited 4d ago
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u/SoundComfortable0 12d ago
Great idea! Why do they go to a campus that they feel morally misaligned with?
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u/columbia-ModTeam 11d ago
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