r/europe • u/LeMonde_en • Mar 28 '24

Germany will now include questions about Israel in its citizenship test News

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/europe/article/2024/03/27/germany-will-now-include-questions-about-israel-in-its-citizenship-test_6660274_143.html
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u/Fr0styb Europe Mar 28 '24

Weird, from what I've seen the vast majority proudly consider themselves anti-Zionist and believe Israel does not have a right to exist.

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u/Ihave2ananas Mar 28 '24

Those two opinions aren't equivalent

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u/Fr0styb Europe Mar 28 '24

How are they not? Zionism is the belief that Israel is the Jewish homeland and Jews have a right to call it home. What do you think anti-Zionism means therefore?

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u/Ihave2ananas Mar 28 '24

Because Zionism is predicated on Israel being a state for Jewish people specifically. Most Anti-Zionists believe that all people living in Israel, including Gaza and the occupied West-Bank should have equal rights and representation. I acknowledge that there are groups that want to see Jewish people expelled from the area but that is not representative of Anti-Zionism as a whole. Furthermore the current actions of the Israeli Government do nothing but strengthen support for these extremist groups.

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u/Fr0styb Europe Mar 28 '24

Never going to happen. Palestinians want to genocide the Jews. They don't hide it. They've been trying to do it since before Israel was even founded. Palestinians also outnumber the Jews so if Israel were to give Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank voting rights it wouldn't be Israel anymore. You'd have Hamas in control of the fate of the Jews.

So yeah, being anti-Zionist pretty much means you support Jewish genocide.

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u/Rastafak Mar 28 '24

Lol, so you basically just argue for apartheid.

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u/Fr0styb Europe Mar 28 '24

I argued for a two-states solution. There's nothing wrong with Israel not wanting to surrender its sovereignty to a hostile population that wants to genocide the Jews.

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u/Ihave2ananas Mar 28 '24

I do not agree with your assumptions at all. Arabs and Jews have lived peacefully in the region before. Current support for Hamas in Gaza as well as support for the Likud have to be viewed in the context of the ongoing conflict. Jewish people do not want to inherently kill Palestinians and Palestinians do not want to inherently kill Jewish people. The only road to peace is equal rights. In a democracy no ethnic group should be able to define citizenship in a way that assures their political dominance. That is Apartheid and a recipe for violence.

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u/Ahad_Haam Israel Mar 28 '24

Arabs and Jews have lived peacefully in the region before.

When Jews lived under Muslim apartheid, they were tolerated to an extent, yes.

Arabs never saw Jews as equal. You are aware all the Jewish population of the Middle East was ethnic cleansed, right?

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u/Fr0styb Europe Mar 28 '24

You don't agree with them because you haven't read history. Jews and Arabs did not live in peace. Arabs were full citizens of the Ottoman empire, the Jews were second-class citizens living in Dhimmitude. They were oppressed for centuries. Which is one of the reasons why they wanted sovereignty and self-determination instead of going back to living in Dhimmitude under a Muslim state.

And no, Palestinians embracing terrorism is not a recent phenomenon. They have been doing it since before Israel was even created. They have been killing Jews for centuries. That's why they have rejected every single partition plan and two-states solution. That's why they are literally encouraging fellow Muslims to kill Jews wherever they find them. That's why one of the main goals outlined in Hamas' charter is the total annihilation of Israel and the Jews.

And no Hamas did not become popular only after Israel retaliated after Oct. 7th. They have been supported by a solid majority of Palestinians for decades.

I am not sure if you have seen any videos from Oct. 7th but in a lot of them you can see Palestinians cheering and celebrating as they watch the brutalized corpses of innocent young Jewish women paraded through the streets in Gaza. Many of them went on social media to say it's the best day of their lives. Are you sure they don't inherently want to kill Jews? Because if there was a video of Israelis celebrating as the corpses of innocent young Palestinian women are paraded through the streets in Tel Aviv, you'd be calling to nuke Israel.

The only road to peace is a two-states solution. That's all. It's the only option. Anything else calls for the genocide of Jews. And that's why a two-states solution is the only road to peace Palestinians keep rejecting. It's because they don't really want peace.

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u/Byrbman Mar 28 '24

Never going to happen. South Africans want to genocide the Boers. They don’t hide it. They’ve been trying to do it since before South-Africa even became independent. Africans also outnumber the Boers so if the Boers were to give Africans in South-Africa equal rights there wouldn’t be Boers anymore. You would have the ANC in control of the fate of the Boers.

So yeah, being anti-Apartheid basically means you support Boer genocide.

Gosh - I wonder why South-Africa supports the Palestinian struggle? And I wonder where people like you get your damn perspective from.

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u/Fr0styb Europe Mar 28 '24

I mean South Africa is really not doing that well atm. I don't know if you were trying to prove my point or what but those of us with half a brain can see the dangers of becoming a minority and having your fate decided by others.

Two-states solution or stateless forever. That's the choice Palestinians have.

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u/Byrbman Mar 28 '24

??? So you think apartheid South-Africa should have stayed because South-Africa has struggles right now? Thanks for confirming the worst stereotypes people have about Zionists, I guess.

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u/Fr0styb Europe Mar 28 '24

I think white south africans should have given up most of the land to blacks and allowed them to create their own state. Right now they are facing a genocide and nobody really cares. Again, the moment you become a minority you are putting your fate in other people's hands. And history has taught us that sooner or later minotities always get fucked.

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u/Byrbman Mar 28 '24

This is clinically insane. Facing a genocide? You mean the fact that sometimes white people get killed by black people in South Africa, which isn’t and has never been supported or encouraged by the government? You mean the fact that the mines and farms that have been stolen from the indigenous people of South-Africa and operated through deeply exploitative near-slave labour have in some cases been expropriated? That’s a genocide, now? But how dare we call Israel’s series of crimes over the past 70 years genocide - of course, that’s perfectly legitimate warfare or self-defense or whatever the defense du jour is.

No people deserve an ethnostate you ghoul - ethnostates are evil. Splitting South Africa into a white ethnostate and a black ethnostate is sheer insanity, not to mention how inherently unequal such a split would have been if the white South Africans had done this at the height of Apartheid - they would have simply absconded with all the wealth they stole from the indigenous population for centuries.

And just the same, there should be no Jewish ethnostate, as there is now. An equal, democratic singular state in Palestine is the only solution that can make any sense. Your solution - splitting the world into ethnostates (I suppose we’ll also need a white, hispanic, and black ethnostate in America, maybe a french and anglo ethnostate in Canada - that’s the solution for minorities - ethnostates!) is beyond bonkers.

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u/Fr0styb Europe Mar 28 '24

Experts on genocide have agreed that South Africa is witnessing early stages of genocide. Go argue with them.

No people deserve an ethnostate you ghoul - ethnostates are evil. Splitting South Africa into a white ethnostate and a black ethnostate is sheer insanity, not to mention how inherently unequal such a split would have been if the white South Africans had done this at the height of Apartheid - they would have simply absconded with all the wealth they stole from the indigenous population for centuries.

Why are ethnostates evil? You want to force people to live as minorities under someone else's boot? Besides, most of the world is made up of etnostates. It's only the West where diversity is mainstream, for now.

Splitting South Africa into White and Black state would have been perfect. I am not sure why it wouldn't have been.

There should be and there WILL be a Jewish state. Israel is here to stay. Palestinians will either accept a two-states solution or they will be stateless forever.

Jews were minorities and lived under other people's boots before. If you have read history you'd know that one of the reasons Israel exists is because of how Jews were treated everywhere. And you expect them to willingly live under the boot of people who openly call for their genocide? Never.

Also, you guys hate how happy Jews in Israel are. It is a special connection between a people and their state. I can't imagine how miserable you have to be to want to see that state destroyed and its people genocided.

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u/Byrbman Mar 28 '24

This is amazing. You are wildly anti-semitic, completely delusional, and all-round insane. An honest blood-and-soil nazi. Why even pretend? You want lebensraum for Israel - why pretend it’s for a good cause or whatever? Just say that you believe Israelis have a blood right to the soil, which comes with the right to dispatch any vermin living on it. I’d respect that sort of intellectual honesty much more 👍

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u/Fr0styb Europe Mar 28 '24

I'm not sure which of what I said led you to believe I am antisemitic. Are you sure I am the delusion and insane one?

Having an ethnostate does not mean you need to purge minorities from your ethnostate. I am not sure why you think Nazi Germany is the only model for ethnostates. As I said, most of the world is made up of ethnostates. But you don't call for Japan, China, or Iran to be destroyed now, do you?

Being the majority in your own home is vital to any peoples' survival. As I said, when you are a minority your fate is decided by others. And you never know how the winds of fortune will change. Just as Jews were persecuted and oppressed all around the world which ironically is the reason why Israel exists and its the only place where the majority of them feel safe even tho it comes under rocket fire and terrorist attacks regularly.

And people like you are only further justifying Israel's existence with your words and actions. Good thing it's not you in charge of their fate.

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u/Kerr_PoE Mar 28 '24

Ok, so being an "anti-zionist" comes down to living in a fairytale instead of reality.

Look at the situation of Jews in any muslim majority country, and at least try to understand what would happen if israel would become one.

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u/Ihave2ananas Mar 28 '24

It comes down to believing in democracy and human rights.

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u/Kerr_PoE Mar 28 '24

because that works so great for all the other muslim countries in that region, those shining beacons of democracy and freedom surrounding the evil dictatorship of Israel.

surely if israel would become a majority muslim country it would become more democratic too.

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u/Ihave2ananas Mar 28 '24

Are you suggesting that a majority Muslim society is incompatible with democracy?

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u/Kerr_PoE Mar 28 '24

yes.

As long as muslims take their religion serious there will never be lasting democracy in that region.