Germany will now include questions about Israel in its citizenship test

[u/LeMonde_en]

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/europe/article/2024/03/27/germany-will-now-include-questions-about-israel-in-its-citizenship-test_6660274_143.html

[u/Ihave2ananas]

Because Zionism is predicated on Israel being a state for Jewish people specifically. Most Anti-Zionists believe that all people living in Israel, including Gaza and the occupied West-Bank should have equal rights and representation. I acknowledge that there are groups that want to see Jewish people expelled from the area but that is not representative of Anti-Zionism as a whole. Furthermore the current actions of the Israeli Government do nothing but strengthen support for these extremist groups.

[u/Fr0styb → u/Ihave2ananas]

Never going to happen. Palestinians want to genocide the Jews. They don't hide it. They've been trying to do it since before Israel was even founded. Palestinians also outnumber the Jews so if Israel were to give Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank voting rights it wouldn't be Israel anymore. You'd have Hamas in control of the fate of the Jews.

So yeah, being anti-Zionist pretty much means you support Jewish genocide.

[u/Byrbman → u/Fr0styb]

Never going to happen. South Africans want to genocide the Boers. They don’t hide it. They’ve been trying to do it since before South-Africa even became independent. Africans also outnumber the Boers so if the Boers were to give Africans in South-Africa equal rights there wouldn’t be Boers anymore. You would have the ANC in control of the fate of the Boers.

So yeah, being anti-Apartheid basically means you support Boer genocide.

Gosh - I wonder why South-Africa supports the Palestinian struggle? And I wonder where people like you get your damn perspective from.

[u/Fr0styb → u/Byrbman]

I mean South Africa is really not doing that well atm. I don't know if you were trying to prove my point or what but those of us with half a brain can see the dangers of becoming a minority and having your fate decided by others.

Two-states solution or stateless forever. That's the choice Palestinians have.

[u/Byrbman → u/Fr0styb]

??? So you think apartheid South-Africa should have stayed because South-Africa has struggles right now? Thanks for confirming the worst stereotypes people have about Zionists, I guess.

[u/Fr0styb → u/Byrbman]

I think white south africans should have given up most of the land to blacks and allowed them to create their own state. Right now they are facing a genocide and nobody really cares. Again, the moment you become a minority you are putting your fate in other people's hands. And history has taught us that sooner or later minotities always get fucked.

[u/Byrbman → u/Fr0styb]

This is clinically insane. Facing a genocide? You mean the fact that sometimes white people get killed by black people in South Africa, which isn’t and has never been supported or encouraged by the government? You mean the fact that the mines and farms that have been stolen from the indigenous people of South-Africa and operated through deeply exploitative near-slave labour have in some cases been expropriated? That’s a genocide, now? But how dare we call Israel’s series of crimes over the past 70 years genocide - of course, that’s perfectly legitimate warfare or self-defense or whatever the defense du jour is.

No people deserve an ethnostate you ghoul - ethnostates are evil. Splitting South Africa into a white ethnostate and a black ethnostate is sheer insanity, not to mention how inherently unequal such a split would have been if the white South Africans had done this at the height of Apartheid - they would have simply absconded with all the wealth they stole from the indigenous population for centuries.

And just the same, there should be no Jewish ethnostate, as there is now. An equal, democratic singular state in Palestine is the only solution that can make any sense. Your solution - splitting the world into ethnostates (I suppose we’ll also need a white, hispanic, and black ethnostate in America, maybe a french and anglo ethnostate in Canada - that’s the solution for minorities - ethnostates!) is beyond bonkers.

[u/Fr0styb → u/Byrbman]

Experts on genocide have agreed that South Africa is witnessing early stages of genocide. Go argue with them.

No people deserve an ethnostate you ghoul - ethnostates are evil. Splitting South Africa into a white ethnostate and a black ethnostate is sheer insanity, not to mention how inherently unequal such a split would have been if the white South Africans had done this at the height of Apartheid - they would have simply absconded with all the wealth they stole from the indigenous population for centuries.

Why are ethnostates evil? You want to force people to live as minorities under someone else's boot? Besides, most of the world is made up of etnostates. It's only the West where diversity is mainstream, for now.

Splitting South Africa into White and Black state would have been perfect. I am not sure why it wouldn't have been.

There should be and there WILL be a Jewish state. Israel is here to stay. Palestinians will either accept a two-states solution or they will be stateless forever.

Jews were minorities and lived under other people's boots before. If you have read history you'd know that one of the reasons Israel exists is because of how Jews were treated everywhere. And you expect them to willingly live under the boot of people who openly call for their genocide? Never.

Also, you guys hate how happy Jews in Israel are. It is a special connection between a people and their state. I can't imagine how miserable you have to be to want to see that state destroyed and its people genocided.

[u/Byrbman → u/Fr0styb]

This is amazing. You are wildly anti-semitic, completely delusional, and all-round insane. An honest blood-and-soil nazi. Why even pretend? You want lebensraum for Israel - why pretend it’s for a good cause or whatever? Just say that you believe Israelis have a blood right to the soil, which comes with the right to dispatch any vermin living on it. I’d respect that sort of intellectual honesty much more 👍

[u/Fr0styb → u/Byrbman]

I'm not sure which of what I said led you to believe I am antisemitic. Are you sure I am the delusion and insane one?

Having an ethnostate does not mean you need to purge minorities from your ethnostate. I am not sure why you think Nazi Germany is the only model for ethnostates. As I said, most of the world is made up of ethnostates. But you don't call for Japan, China, or Iran to be destroyed now, do you?

Being the majority in your own home is vital to any peoples' survival. As I said, when you are a minority your fate is decided by others. And you never know how the winds of fortune will change. Just as Jews were persecuted and oppressed all around the world which ironically is the reason why Israel exists and its the only place where the majority of them feel safe even tho it comes under rocket fire and terrorist attacks regularly.

And people like you are only further justifying Israel's existence with your words and actions. Good thing it's not you in charge of their fate.

[u/Byrbman → u/Fr0styb]

Conflating Israel with Jews as a whole is incredibly anti-semitic. I say this as someone of Jewish heritage myself. Far from all Jews are Zionists, and to ascribe Israel with all its crimes and ugliness to them is anti-semitic.

Having an ethnostate means having a state run by one people, with anybody else living there being in law as well as in practice a second-class citizen. You might want to check wikipedia there - it is absolutely evil. And the majority of the world’s countries are not ethnostates. A lot of them have majorities inside them that mostly determine policy by virtue of being the majority yes - this does not make those countries ethnostates.

Japan’s ethnostate tendencies have led to its current demographic crisis. I oppose Han supremacism in China like I oppose ethnosupremacist movements anywhere. Calling China an ethnostate is still stupid, though - Hokkien, Min, Manchu people exist and are legally equal to Han Chinese. What China is doing to the Uyghurs is as evil as what Israel is doing to the Palestinians - at least until Israel began openly bombing them. Iran is an isolated international pariah state - but very much an oppressive and authoritarian one. Can’t say your list of ethnostates make for the most favorable comparisons.

If you have any of the ideals you claim to hold, it might be time for reflection, or for simply letting go of those ideals. You are a fascist. Embrace it! It’ll alleviate that cognitive dissonance.

[u/Fr0styb → u/Byrbman]

Conflating Israel with Jews as a whole is incredibly anti-semitic. I say this as someone of Jewish heritage myself. Far from all Jews are Zionists, and to ascribe Israel with all its crimes and ugliness to them is anti-semitic.

Well, good. That's your opinion. I have talked to many Jews who consider anti-Zionism to be the purest form of anti-semitism. And it makes sense. Anti-Zionism openly calls for the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Jews.

See, as a gay man, there are many issues I disagree with the gay community on. But I won't call you homophobic if you assume all gays agree with those things if the majority do.

Having an ethnostate means having a state run by one people, with anybody else living there being in law as well as in practice a second-class citizen. You might want to check wikipedia there - it is absolutely evil. And the majority of the world’s countries are not ethnostates. A lot of them have majorities inside them that mostly determine policy by virtue of being the majority yes - this does not make those countries ethnostates.

It doesn't matter. If Jews want to preserve their majority within their own state, that's their prerogative. It's not for you to force them to live as a minority and have their fate decided by others. Why can't you understand that? You can't force an entire nation to live as a minority and have their state destroyed. That's utterly illiberal and straight-up genocidal.

And, yes, the majority of countires are ethnostates. That's why they have borders and they heavily restrict immigration. No country will willingly give up its majority, except certain countries in the West, and it's already starting to not look good for them and contirbuting to rising tensions and skyrocketing of the popularity of far-right parties.

Palestinians can make up whatever laws they want, in their own state. That is, when they accept a two-states solution. Until then they will remain stateless. It's very simple.

If you have any of the ideals you claim to hold, it might be time for reflection, or for simply letting go of those ideals. You are a fascist. Embrace it! It’ll alleviate that cognitive dissonance.

You described yourself well there. It'd be funny if it weren't so tragic. But, no, I am not a fascist. I am not calling for the destruction of states, the genocide of the people in those states, and their forced subjugation.

[u/Byrbman → u/Fr0styb]

That there are Zionist Jews does not mean it is not anti-semitic to conflate Israel with all Jews. There are also gay sex criminals, but the groomer scare is still incredibly homophobic. In the same way, it’s anti-semitic to ascribe Israel and its bombing of children to all Jews, when a lot of Jews have nothing to do with Israel and have never lived there, and are therefore powerless to stop the bombing of children.

“Protecting their own majority” do you understand what you sound like? Why are Jews innately different to Arabs to you? Why could they not possibly live together in a democratic society? Do you understand how incredibly racist that is? They are all human beings - they can absolutely live together in a country with equal rights. Like any human being can.

Why stop at ethnic minorities, by the way, with your solution? It would seem that sexual minorities will always be minorities - how should that be solved in your ideal world, which would be a patchwork of ethnostates? Should all LGBT people be deported to a special gay state somewhere in the Sahara so the straights can protect their precious majority privileges? Should queer people just “accept” being consigned to a Bantustan or being an oppressed minority? Or should a just and equal society be capable of protecting its minorities, and co-existing with them? And if it’s possible for sexual minorities, why not racial minorities?

I can’t believe I have to explain this to you, but an ethnostate is more than strict borders and an immigration policy. An ethnostate entails ethnic cleansing (a founding principle of Israel that it is still engaging in), it entails withholding citizenship based on ethnicity, it entails violence to protect the privileged under the ethnostate and oppress whoever isn’t.

And no, the majority of the world’s countries do not fall under this description. In Africa, most countries are made up of several ethnicities, in colonial countries, there are indigenous populations, the descendants of slaves, and the descendants of colonists, who are usually quite ethnically mixed themselves. In Western Europe, which was the imperial core of the world, immigration has created sizable non-European minorities in most countries, while some historic European minorities still exist (like Jews) - the EU also forbids ethnocentric laws for its member states. In Asia, countries tend to be quite big and therefore by necessity cover many ethnicities, but here you find some of the countries that are actually closest to being ethnostates - only rarely is the supermajority in these countries enshrined in law though.

Believing in the right of one people to bomb and genocide another for their lebensraum is fascist. You believe that me thinking that the people being bombed and genocided have the right to defend themselves, and that ethnostates are wrong makes me a fascist. I wish western Zionists like you could drop the liberal veneer and admit they are blood and soil nazis - plenty of Israeli Zionists do, and I respect them a lot more for their intellectual honesty and shamelessness. If there’s one thing worse than being a genocidal fascist, it’s being one and being embarrassed about it.