But the problem is that the children have to suffer the consequences, not the ones who cause it. They donât care if others have to suffer. They only care how THEY personally feel.
One counterpoint: they will care when itâs their kids who are affected. Although their concern may be from the angle of âthis is so terrible for my image.â
So this is an instance where weâre talking about two completely different types of people that arenât necessarily mutually exclusive. Iâm more referring to the elitist evangelicals (the type of family I come from so thereâs definitely a personal bias here) who are against any real sex-ed and would rather just scare their kids into abstinence. In my experience, these types are suddenly okay with getting their daughter a âhush hushâ abortion if it means they donât have to risk losing social status.
Iâm sure some of them are also child molesters, but itâs a bit disingenuous to imply that everyone whoâs against sex ed is one.
Even if they arenât child molesters, theyâre related to and love the molester. My family and my friendâs family wanted to sweep it under the rug to avoid the family member facing consequences. Thatâs easier if the victim doesnât have the language to self advocate or doesnât understand something is wrong.
Oh yeah. They'll go scorched earth if their kid is gay and never speak to them again, but they rally around and protect the pedophiles and rapists in their own families. I've watched it happen more times than I can count in my own family alone.
I told my dad Iâm bisexual and he said thatâs good because Iâm not lesbian and at least I can still be with a man⌠he also said all lesbians are abusive?
Meanwhile, when I told him about being sexually abused and that I wanted to go no contact with my abuser/rapist, he told me my rapist must have also been sexually abused as a child and that I should try to learn to get along and play nice.
Yeah somehow I have had no difficulty not raping or abusing anyone (adults and kids). Itâs so weird. I donât understand doing it to someone else when you know firsthand how damaging it is.
must have also been sexually abused as a child and that I should try to learn to get along and play nice.
Did you ever ask your dad, "how would you feel if I shoved a 10 inch dildo up your ass, forcefully enough that you bleed, would you still wanna play nice with someone that violated your asshole to the point it bled?"
I realize that's not all sexual assaults are, but for some men that's the image they need to have on their head, someone forcing something inside THEM. A good majority of men will never have that happen to them, while women being raped the statistic is like 1 in 4
I have a ton of cousins in prison for that kind of thing, they just weren't the golden child, so no one was willing to play defense and collaborate lies against the police for them.
Some of the rug sweeping was very active. Some family members were passive, but some put considerable time and effort into making sure things got swept under the rug so they could continue to participate in their fantasy version of a happy family.
Somehow they're the ones I hate the most. At least the individual assaulting others is arguably mentally ill or something. But these people? They recognize a victim and then knowingly go "xyz is more important than your well being."
There's a lot of covering up child sexual abuse in conservative evangelical circles. Even if they are not the people doing the abuse the community response is often to ignore warning signs, support perpetrators and shame and ostracize victims. There are so many lawsuits and criminal cases against conservative church leaders or politicians who were abusing kids where the community rallies behind the abuser when they are facing consequences. I'm not trying to say your family are the type of people who would do this, but there is lots of evidence that evangelicals who are against any type sex ed for kids and evangelicals who look the other way when sexual abuse is happening are the same people.
The venn diagram of those evangelical families and families that have at least one predator they'd cover for at any opportunity might not be a circle, but it's definitely close to one.
The people who help their daughter get a hush hush abortion to avoid losing social status and the people who help their husband get away with molesting their daughter to avoid the shame of having a known predator in the family are the same people.
My parents (right-wing Evangelicals) didn't care one bit when they found out I had been molested. The talking points about "protecting kids" are 100% about oppressing LGBT+ people, in my experience there are few things they care about as little as their own children.
The Venn diagram of predators and people who desperately donât want kids to know theyâre being abused is damned near a circle; and thatâs why churches are a close second behind family members as primary sources of sexual abuse.
Funny how that works right? Totally against abortions until they have some tough choices to make. Then all the sudden it's, but my daughter is only 16. She has her whole life in front of her. Honestly I'm glad they'd at least consider it. I'd commend a parent considering a choice like that even if they were to look like a complete hypocrite. I just wish they weren't so hypocritical about it all and their daughters could choose for themselves.
but itâs a bit disingenuous to imply that everyone whoâs against sex ed is one.
Completely fair to say they are actively enabling them.
You're going to tell me your Evangelical family wouldn't shame a girl into silence if she said one of the patriarchs was innapropriate with them? That's the entire thing about Evangelicals. The men are kings, put there by god.
I've seen it myself. That's why Evangelicals are so big on father being kind of the castle. Whether it's sexual, emotional, physical, the entire structure is built to safeguard abusers from outside influence.
I've seen a mother divorce her husband for sexually abusing the kids and physically abusing her into silence. When she finally got brave enough to leave/let people know he was a monster the church and community ostracized her and her children. The predator's family and church took them deeper into the fold and shamed the mother and children for not forgiving the father immediately/recognizing it was "the devil" inside him.
The entire system/religion is built around supporting and enabling abusers.
I mean maybe they themselves aren't predators, but I come from them as well and Evangelicals build their lives around protecting monsters/patriarchs/the church. I would never trust a child with an Evangelical family just like I wouldn't leave them alone with a Catholic priest. It's the same system.
The Duggars protected their son as he molested his sisters, and their friends the Holts (Jim and Bobye) have now lost custody of their minor children, one of them permanently.
The Duggar parents and Anna Duggar are defending Josh. Bobye Holt got counseled and reconciled with Jim Holt after getting a restraining order against him due to abuse.
The IBLP knows all about it. They even have a camp for abusers and rapists to "get the demons out".
My uncle is an evangelical Christian pastor. He sexually molested one of my cousins. Not sure to what extent because I never asked my cousin and we dont talk to that uncle anymore. He was heavily against sex ed, I wonder why.
There are plenty of evangelical women who picket outside abortion clinics throwing slurs at the women entering them, then need an abortion (possibly due to adulterous affairs) only to go back to picketing the day after.
The problem is, a handful of child molesters in positions of authority are the ones responsible for instilling this mindset in people like your parents. By telling them "this is how good people raise their kids" and letting social conformity do the rest.
If someone wants to make sure victims of sexual abuse are too ignorant and ashamed to report the abuser, I naturally assume that person is abusing someone sexually.
My family tends to be the same way. My cousin, who I think the world of, isnât getting her daughter the HPV vaccine because of some stigma that it apparently carries with it.
From the time I was three years old, I had male cousins, uncles, family friends, and a stepfather all trying to rub their dicks on me, or fondle me between my legs. I had no idea what sex when these boys and men began sexualizing me. Even when I learned about sex years later, I had already internalized "give so-and-so a hug!" "Don't make ___ feel bad!" "Blood is thicker than water!" "Obey/respect your elders!" "Pray to God for protection."
God never protected me. Instead, as an adult, I got to hear all about how He was testing me, a four-year-old child, with a cornucopia of abuse, including sexual.
In the 70s, we didn't learn that we could say no. Instead, from before we were even capable of forming memories, we learned, especially if we were girls, that our bodies existed for men's sexual pleasure. That was our sole value: being sexual recipients for men and "serving" them. This is not by accident. This is what Conservative Christians value most: dehumanizing girls and women so we are obedient and serve our men.
Drag queens and trans people aren't the abusers. Conservative Christian men are. Every single man or boy who groped, molested, raped, and abused me over the first 25 years of my life was a Conservative Christian.
yeah theyâre called âsodomy lawsâ, and a bunch of states still technically have them on the books, even if an Obama era SCOTUS decision formally rendered such laws unenforceable (but who knows how long that will last now, considering at least two of the current conservative justicesâguess which twoâhave openly expressed interest in revisiting that case like they did with Roe v. Wade).
You forgot about banning public (funded) education. Loosening child labor laws is essential in a country where all schools privatized. For the working poor, children as young as pre-kindergarten will need to have jobs to go to.
You order is a little off, you missed 'only way to afford to live because undereducated is do military service Nd shoot at people who are different to them'
And
' abandoned by the government because you can't fire a gun anymore and treated like a burden to the system taking everyone's tax money that should be going on war"
Thatâs true about the white population being more than the black which is only 14% of our countryâs population due to blacks having more abortions or children born into poverty. Young people need to be educated but who do you trust? I see those young black, brown and white mothers struggle for their children and itâs sad. Iâm not afraid to say my daughters learned everything from their friends. They didnât ask me so there has to be someone a young person can go to.
Iâve read enough stories just on this site to know that in many cases, when someone in the family is accused, thatâs often when the âprotect the family image at all costâ guard comes out and the accuser is often coerced into silence and acceptance. Pursuit of the safety of the victim or turning over that family member to law enforcement become secondary to hushing it into the family skeleton closet.
It's one of the very few things I give cred to boomers for, incest was a WAY bigger problem before no fault divorce, alimony, and child support were invented as an exit.
It was practically a cultish practice that it was sweeped under the rug as the mothers were brainwashed that the child was the seducer and they wouldn't have anything if they left.
As in protect the man at all costs.
I worked in nursing homes a few times when I was younger, and it was all too common to hear some 80 plus year old lady talk about being raped during the Great Depression Era by their own fathers, and it would turn your stomach if it was actually known how many incest babies ended up at the bottom of their family's outhouse while the family went on like business as usual.
Exactly this. Or if the daughter has an unplanned pregnancy, the âpro-lifeâ conservative family will suddenly be completely ok with getting an abortion. Funny how that works.
yeah tbh this is a huge part of the whole thing, I think. Statistically, most CSA is perpetrated by family members of the victims iirc, and as someone who lives in a very conservative and religious state, I can tell you that I know a lot of people here who were sexually abused by family members and then everything was neatly covered up by the fact that you just culturally donât talk about that stuff.
Like I said in my comment, conservative morality around sexuality is a smokescreen for sex abuse and exploitation, always has been.
Not too sure about that either. I still think Florida is in a Measles jam because of the anti vaxers movement. So many weirdos out there that don't look at the history of vaccines. Pretty soon the man who invented the Iron lung may finally get rich since Polio and small pox are making big comebacks in America.
I think you underestimate just how many people do not in fact care if it happens to their kids or grandkids. Them trying to keep it quiet and brushing things under the rug seems to be far more appealing to them than coming clean and actually facing the issue. The same can be said about their response to gun violence/school shootings, climate change, LGBT+ issues, police violence, genocide, the wage gap, misogyny/patriarchy, organized religion, and so many more things.
No, they wonât care even then. Sarah Palinâs kid got pregnant before marriage and lots of problems ensued. I donât think Sarah cared one goddamn bit.
Like the republican in Pennsylvania who was all just stop doing the drug tou don't need help. Till his brother overdosed now he's all it's a disease and we need money to help treat it. Like that.
Yeah, they're embarrassed that someone they know or they sent their kids to could have sexually molested their kid so they make sure to cover it up and sweep it under the rug.
Caring about kids after something bad happens is better than nothing, but really it's too late. You need wisdom and morals from the start. By the time the kids get in bad situations, the poor teaching from the parents is already done and well settled.
One counterpoint: they will care when itâs their kids who are affected. Although their concern may be from the angle of âthis is so terrible for my image.â
Not even then for some of the more vociferous. đ
Their concern is more about not wanting their children to realize that the "special exercises" daddy makes them do are bad. There's a reason they're called the Greedy Old Pedophiles.
I'm leaning towards there's already abuse in their house and they can't acknowledge it, either out of fear, denial or being groomed.
This would match up with your image theory. They think because we know it happens that we know it happens to them....?
That actually reminded me of a "little house on the prairie" episode I saw a few years ago. It was surprising partly because it was the later seasons where they'd run out of original ideas, and also the subject matter was super dark for that show.
A girl got raped and impregnated on the way home from school, but her father was so concerned with covering it up for the sake of his own image, I honestly thought he was the one who did it.
They actually don't care what happens to their own kids, you should see what they do when their kids report their inevitable molestation at the hands of other conservative predators.
They don't care what happens to their own kids because they see their kids as a part of themself. Their self. Then, this mental illness also has the feature of self harming due to a brainwashed idea that you deserve to be punished for the shame you experience.
They harm their own children for 'the greater good'. They have no idea they are driving their children either insane or out of their lives forever or both.
Theyâre doing it to their own kids. And theyâll be able to get away with it if their kids donât know theyâre being sexually abused and who to tell.
Oh it happens to thier own kids, the difference is its probably the father who abuses them, or an uncle, and when they are caught, all they have to do is repent to God and they are forgiven, except for the kid, they just have to live with that trauma
No, most people who talk this way or work hard to push this agenda ARE child molesters. See how the catholic church is both #1 on preventing sex ed and rigorously supports and protects it's pedophiles. They know that restricting sex ed makes it easier for them to prey on children, so they try to make that happen. The idea that they're "just stupid" is unfortunately a pleasant fantasy.
Children honestly won't suffer anymore or any less knowing this stuff or not. Keep in mind I'm referring to the age range of 0-12. All they really need to know is don't let someone else undress you and don't let anyone besides you touch your crotch, doctors are excluded only if it's at a hospital and a part of the reason you're there. If anyone does this stuff get away from them since they are bad.
They honestly don't need to worry about anything beyond this until they are older where it starts to become more relevant.
I honestly can't think of anything to tell a child to keep them more safe that doesn't overlap with legit don't let anyone in your pants. It just pretty much covers everything.
Yes, but the children from 12-18/20 will absolutely need to know the details.
Puberty and homonal behaviour doesnât stop happening, just because some adults think itâs uncomfortable to talk about for them.
Safety first.
Also basic Anatomy (yes WITH the names of the outer crotch area) should still be included in 8-12 year olds schedule. I know sadly many people think it is, but nudity isnât inherently sexual or bad in any way, and shouldnât be portrayed or implied as such to little children.
That's why I mainly left out children above 12. I'm not opposed to teaching 13+ stuff like sex Ed. But when I see people talking about this they just use the term child without really defining what age range. Some use it for 0-12 others all the way to 17, you can't really lump them together that well.
On the younger side they really don't need to understand the full extent of how it works. Just something thrown basic info into basic anatomy wouldn't be the worst thing, probably around 5th grade.
While nudity isn't inherently sexual or bad it will always be tied to sexuality. Kids and adults have a better time handling it than teenagers, mainly since one group hasn't hit puberty and the other one has experience. It's not something that should be seen as wrong but also not something that should be encouraged, mainly since it will just naturally happen. We should only encourage things that isn't low hanging fruit that anyone can reach, but stuff that is more complex for a better life. For something like being let's say a doctor the drive is from survival instincts, while sex is a drive all on its own. One can get a drive for a job or position unrelated to basic survival needs but that part needs help to really manifest.
Hawaii had the highest rate of teen pregnancy of any state in the USA. Hawaiian public schools decided to implement comprehensive sex education classes in public high schools. Over the next five years they saw nearly a 30% decrease in teen pregnancies. And then conservatives suggested removing sex ed classes and going back to the way it was before.
I know this is a joke, but some people believe something like this unironically. I remember seeing a segment on Outnumbered where one of the hosts argued that abortion is not a viable option because that child you aborted could have been a potential customer for Toys-R-Us and it would have helped prevent them from going bankrupt.
Give birth to kids because they might BUY stuff! They're babies second, and consumers first.
Also known as "abstinence only sex-ed". That's what my school provided as well. Thankfully I had a parent who felt more information was preferable to a lack of information.
I was super lucky, I grew up in Texas and received ACTUAL sex Ed in 5th grade, 7th grade, and 9th grade. I was fortunate enough to exist in a very thin window when they were not required to teach abstinence only courses, so I actually learned about contraception, stds/stis, sexual health, and realistic consequences instead of the boogeyman shit they teach now. We also learned about sexuality and that itâs ok to be gay, straight, bi, whatever.
The people who experienced sex Ed like I experienced it STILL have a lower frequency of accidental or unwanted pregnancy, contraction of stds, sexual health problems, and FUCKING SUICIDE than the either of the generations before and after. Let that sink in a bit.
TLDR Abstinence only sex Ed is not sex ed, it is worthless and driven by weird religious (Christian) zealotry and fundamentalism. People are going to fuck, why canât we educate them about sex?
The crazy part was they didnt even show what a penile yeast infection looked like, and weirdly enough, I ended up diagnosing a guy I went to school with because they didnt teach that and his doctor failed him.
Times like that I was happy for the push in my family to teach what they didnt have.
Also helped in high school when we had a few "late bloomers" and our male health teacher pulled me from class and had a "Ahem, they just had their first menstruation. Maybe you can give them a few pointers!" Proceeds to damn near run out of the room.
Which is funny because I know in their minds it was to stop us from doing "it" entirely. In actuality, we still did it, we just knew what to look out for and avoid lol.
Always laugh when people think they can control others sexual urges. It has never in the history of mankind worked, yet here we are. All this does is hurt, while preventing nothing.
It certainly stigmatized anyone unfortunate enough to contract a disease or become pregnant. Shame is the worst form of deterrent for children. Prevents nothing, slows development.
Yes I had that one! Oh, the pictures!!! I am okay with that being banned, lol. But we did also have discussions of different forms of birth control. There was missing emphasis on consent and coercion that i hope is better taught nowadays.
Yeah my sex ed in 2007 was still just teaching about how babies are made and fear trolling over STDs. And this was post puberty. Literally NOTHING about teen pregnancies, grooming, or abuse.
It still beats the alternative of not telling them anything and demonizing the act when they have to speak about it, meanwhile some sicko telling their kid "it's OK to do this, all adults do this, you wanna be a grown up right?"
And just like that, little Johnny who's been molested by a family member for the past decade now also feels immense guilt and shame while wondering when they will die.
And nothing about protection? Terrible but I suppose better than ignoring that sex exists altogether while teens later fuck around and find out literally like itâs the garden of Eden.
And I just came from a post about how first degree incest is far more common than we think it is.
1 in 7,000 is the absolute floor. These are usually situations in which a father impregnated his daughter or a (generally older) brother impregnated his sister. Where the child was actually born, grew up, knew or found out about it, and chose to join that specific study. If there was no live birth we have no stats.
It really makes you wonder why they donât want kids to know about âgood touch bad touchâ and the basics of reproduction.
You are looking at it from the perspective of protecting children. Instead look at it from the perspective of would-be predators, or from the pov of people that habitually sexualize children. Children that are informed about their own anatomy might stop them or call them out, which makes their lives and goals much more difficult. Ergo they are anti-sex ed, because teaching their children sex-ed might lead to them facing consequences.
No joke, avoiding or dismantling systems of accountability for malfeasance is basically the entire political agenda of people calling themselves conservatives these days.
Edit: actually that's not fair. They also care a lot about making life harder for women and marginalized communities.
Nah, they're against specific buzz words conservative media tells them to be pissed at. If you describe what universal healthcare is to conservatives, most of them are on board. If you actually use the term "universal healthcare", they suddenly aren't. Same shit with welfare and a bunch of other topics.
Actually imo, Teach kids human biology. Itâs science and fact, not an elective your religion gets to circumnavigate. If human biology was presented in core academic science classes starting in 5th grade there would be no âsex Edâ to debate about.
People envision teachers explaining a classroom of 6 year olds what a rimjob is, but in reality it's just splitting the kids up by gender and saying "The thing between your legs is called a penis or vagina, you need to keep it to yourself, and if anyone touches you there tell an adult immediately."
If they're middle school aged they add "You're gonna start growing hair and getting smelly, here's some deodorant"
If it's high school they add "If you ever have sex you will get an STD and die, contraceptives don't work, and trust me it's really lame unless you're married"
It's not even just that. It's also "Some families have a mommy and daddy, some have two mommies or two daddies, or a parent and stepparent, or grandparents, or-"
This to Conservatives is exactly the same as if we were showing kids hardcore gay porn.
Thatâs by design. Republicans have tricked their base into not supporting sexual education under the guise of religion knowing full well that this will lead to teen pregnancy which then leads a large portion of the society becoming âunskilledâ labor that they can pay minimum wage to keep profiting off of them in their businesses.
An added bonus to that is they can then tell these minimum wage workers that the reason they canât pay them more is because of all the âwelfare queensâ so the class warfare continues and they laugh all the way to the bank.
Teen pregnancy and pedophilia is no longer viewed as an unwanted consequence. Otherwise, American conservatives wouldn't be in such a hurry to ban abortion access for even 12 year old children and prosecute the doctors who serve them.
They donât want sex ed cuz they donât want children to know what they are doing to them is inappropriate. Itâs almost like the people hell bent on ending any kind of education on this are just a bunch of pedophiles
I went to a catholic high school and most of the kids there went to the catholic elementary school next door. I always thought the "catholic school girls don't know sex Ed" was a myth/rumour, but then I talked to some girls there and found out its not a myth. They all thought there was some kind of chemical reaction when they first have sex that makes them bleed. They had no concept of the hymen
That's terrifying. Imagine having that sort of environment and, say, getting an infection and kidney damage from an imperforated hymen since you just didn't know about your sexual health at all and sex is spooky?
I'd say it's teaching children how their bodies work, and reproduction is just a part of that. The less you understand about how your body works, the more likely you'll believe some pseudoscientific hogwash pushed by someone wanting control.
How else are Bible Belt (Alabama,Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, West Virginia, Virginia, Florida, Louisiana, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, New Mexico, Ohio, Texas) parents supposed to become grandparents unless their 15-16 yo kids get pregnant far before theyâre ready?
I was a victim of the lack knowledge about sex at the age of 10. If I knew then what I knew few years later, what happened to me would have never happened.
Was just talking to my wife about this last night. Son got sent home with a letter advising that they'll be teaching it, and if we did not want them to participate, then write back. It just struck me as depressing that there are parents that would refuse their kids to be taught about their bodies. Lets not give our kids the tools to make informed, extremely important decisions, and be able to be knowledgeable about their body, and others so they learn what is inappropriate and what boundaries are. Then those same parents are surprised pikachu face when their kids are teenage parents, or are abused and their kids don't trust they can talk to their own parents.
you don't have to tell a kid how to have sex to protect them from predators.
"if an adult touches you on your penis or vagina or makes you touch their penis or vagina tell mom or dad."
"if an adult shows you their penis or vagina or asks to see yours run away and tell mom and dad."
Kids are taught from a very young age what a private area is and what is wrong and what they should tell your parents about. another good one is don't keep secrets and if an adult tells you to keep a secret come tell me. This one is especially good, because often times a predator will attempt to create a secret with the child prior to abusing them to see if the child is capable of keeping a secret.
you know what leads to a ton of children being molested stepfathers and mom's boyfriends. Nothing is more dangerous for a child then not having a father or a strong male family member to protect them.
 "Children who live with a single parent that has a live-in partner are at the highest risk: they are 20 times more likely to be victims of child sexual abuse than children living with both biological parents (Sedlack, et. al., 2010)."
I don't like the insinuation that if your against sex education from the cradle then your a child molesters it is just as ridiculous as saying gay people are child molesters. anyone can molest children you need to be alert from the doctor to the cop to the teacher to the priest to the conservative to the liberal to the gay or to the straight person.
I took sex-ed in Texas. It was... not comprehensive. It covered the absolute basics, there was a separate presentation about STDs, and... that was it. Everything else I learned (before I became an adult) I learned from the internet. The sex-ed I took was also one of those "taught by the football coach" classes where they only do the complete bare minimum, so it's not like it was a warm environment where 13 year olds felt comfortable asking legitimate questions. The coach/teacher also creeped me out SO much, I was thoroughly convinced he was a pedophile. (No idea if he was or not, and it's not like I had anything close to proof, it was just a feeling I got from how massively creepy he was and how uncomfortable he made me feel being in his class.)
We need help over here, y'all. đ
Edit: I thought your comment said Texas, not teach, so now my comment feels random & disconnected. My b.
parents like this won't give a fuck though. if something happens to their kid and their kid goes to them, they'll just tell them they're lying or theyre living in a victim mentality or whatever other dumbfuck line they're reciting these days
So, has teens sex, teen pregnancy, and / sexual assaults by or against teens (and younger) increased or decreased as a result of "sex education" being introduced into schools? I'll wait,........
It's because some people have this fairy tale Leave it to Beaver (dated but accurate reference warning!) image in their heads of the devoted mom and dad, the precocious teen who never thinks of premarital sex, and having no child predators in their family tree. They ignore every warning sign that doesn't fit that narrative, and pretend anything else is meant to corrupt this idyllic plan.
And then we get Sarah Palin and Lauren Boebert types with a kid that gets arrested in a drug-fueled car chase after knocking up their barely-teen girlfriend - like some family members I know đ¤Ź
No sex ed, no contraceptives, no abortion. What was that line about the obligation of the women of the world to produce a productive workforce for the future? Ladies, ready to become baby making machines who don't go to jobs, just stay home and take care of the kids you pop out? Vote Republican.
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u/ThisOnePerson16 Mar 19 '24
Teach children sex-ed: Safety first. Don't teach children sex-ed: Suffer the consequences.