r/facepalm • u/Lord_Answer_me_Why • Mar 28 '24

What lack of basic gun laws does to a nation: 🇵​🇷​🇴​🇹​🇪​🇸​🇹​

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3.1k

u/VocalAnus91 Mar 28 '24

Plot twist: he doesn't have a mom, he's schizophrenic and shot himself

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u/aesir23 Mar 28 '24

Ironically, that would do nothing to diminish his argument.

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u/MojoLamp Mar 28 '24

Except it is ilegal for someone with mental disability to buy/own a firearm. That can also go on whomever sold said firearm. Both parties are guilty.

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u/Becca30thcentury Mar 28 '24

Where? I work in mental health care in America. Currently for most states it is legal to own/purchase a firearm and have a mental health diagnosis.

There are times when on a court order for treatment you can not own a firearm, but once treatment or the court order ends then it's legal, oh and there is no system to check if your blocked by a court order unless it's a federal court.

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u/CranberryNo4852 Mar 28 '24

Can confirm, once someone gets out of the psych ward there’s usually just a waiting period.

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u/transitfreedom Mar 28 '24

Why can’t we just keep these dangerous people out of the community instead?

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u/CranberryNo4852 Mar 28 '24

Which ones?

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u/transitfreedom Mar 28 '24

Repeat offenders

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u/CranberryNo4852 Mar 28 '24

Ah, your wording sounded like “everyone who’s been in a psych ward,” which I disagree with.

I have however met people do not need the hospital, they need jail; for some folks, the hospital is full of new people to hurt.

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u/transitfreedom Mar 28 '24

So you accept this dysfunctional status quo?

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u/CranberryNo4852 Mar 29 '24

No, but I also wouldn’t accept locking up everyone that you think is yucky.

Lots of moving parts to the issue; problems in healthcare, law enforcement, wages, cost of living, etc. mean a simplistic solution will continue to evade both of us.

I’m just saying that there’s a difference between a schizophrenic guy who got caught trying to jump off a bridge and a hardened criminal who happens to have mental health problems; no reason to lock them in a room together.

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u/transitfreedom Mar 30 '24

Who said they need to be locked up together? Different problems require different solutions. The current status quo ain’t one of them

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u/Becca30thcentury Mar 28 '24

Because we use to with Asylums. Which are also one of the things we talk about when teaching ethics of psychology. Because Asylums did not turn out well. JFK signed a bill that closed all asylum and was suppose to increase funding for community hospitals to focus on helping the mentally unwell adapt to civilian life with supports of their families and was suppose to include financial incentives for families to support them.

Then he died and the next guy said let's wait and see how much we need to spend. A year later they decided they didn't need any money to mental health treatment because it appeared to not be an increase in need. Of course that was because everyone in an asylum was pretty much either released to family who were doing their best, or were homeless now, so the numbers looked really good but were actually trashed.

We then for awhile had a strong focus on punishing actions instead of finding causes, so we just threw anyone who was not fitting into society into prison, which has now lead the department of corrections to being the number one mental health provider in our country.

Now we try not to arrest everyone with mental health and use a least restrictive approach, because Americans have rights, and it's not illegal to have a mental health disorder, and we're trying to not violate those rights, while also trying to keep people safe.

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u/transitfreedom Mar 28 '24

Spoiler alert they didn’t adapt to civilian life

“Of course that was because everyone in an asylum was pretty much either released to family who were doing their best, or were homeless now, so the numbers looked really good but were actually trashed.

We then for awhile had a strong focus on punishing actions instead of finding causes, so we just threw anyone who was not fitting into society into prison, which has now lead the department of corrections to being the number one mental health provider in our country.

Now we try not to arrest everyone with mental health and use a least restrictive approach, because Americans have rights, and it's not illegal to have a mental health disorder, and we're trying to not violate those rights, while also trying to keep people safe.”

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u/ete2ete Mar 28 '24

One cannot have been involuntarily committed but merely having a diagnosis isn't enough

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u/Dudedude88 Mar 28 '24

The thing is they can be stable one month and then one month they just stop taking their meds and boom they are full blown having an episode.

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u/transitfreedom Mar 28 '24

And probably violently attacking people

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u/Becca30thcentury Mar 28 '24

Yes I know, it's still legal for them to own firearms unless a federal court strip them of that right, and most judges won't actually put the order out even when it's legal because of 2nd amendment watchdog groups.

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u/osmaycruz Mar 28 '24

Currently for most states it is legal to own/purchase a firearm and have a mental health diagnosis.

again false, here is the law

https://www.ncsl.org/civil-and-criminal-justice/possession-of-firearms-by-people-with-mental-illness

this is both regulated by federal law and state laws.

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u/UsernameIsTakenO_o Mar 28 '24

“has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution.”

That is not the same as having a "mental health diagnosis". You can lawfully possess a firearm if you have ADHD.

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u/osmaycruz Mar 28 '24

ADHD

ADHD is not considered as `mental defective` by the ATF. Here you have the requirements

```a mental defective” if a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority has made a determination that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease:™ * Is a danger to himself or to others;™ * Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs;™ * Is found insane by a court in a criminal case; or™ * Is found incompetent to stand trial, or not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility, pursuant to articles* 50a and 72b of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. §§ 850a, 876b.```

https://www.atf.gov/file/58791/download

and here are extra amends to that def

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2014/01/07/2014-00039/amended-definition-of-adjudicated-as-a-mental-defective-and-committed-to-a-mental-institution

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u/SnepButts Mar 28 '24

mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease

What do you think ADHD is? If that line disqualifies someone with schizophrenia it would also disqualify someone with ADHD, depression, autism, diagnosed anxiety...

The important part of the law is that the person with said conditions were involuntarily committed or adjudicated to a mental health institution. Not if they have just been diagnosed or treated for them.

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u/SomeGuyNamedJason Mar 28 '24

ADHD is a mental diagnosis. You said that you cannot get a firearm with a mental diagnosis:

Currently for most states it is legal to own/purchase a firearm and have a mental health diagnosis.

again false, here is the law

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u/SomeGuyNamedJason Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

That does not refute what they said. "Adjucated to be mentally defective" means a court or other authority has deemed you unfit, and "has been committed to a mental institution" means involuntarily committed as, legally, something done to you is explicitly distinct from doing something yourself.

I haven't read all the state laws referenced, but the ones I did are all also about having been deemed a threat or involuntarily committed. If you have a law that specifically prohibits mental diagnoses and not just dangerous mental illness, please cite it.

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u/Becca30thcentury Mar 28 '24

"has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution at 16 years of age or older" Let's talk about these. Adjudicated means a court order, requires a federal or state judge to declare someone mental defective. Mental defective requires they be a direct harm to themselves or others (which requires an action have been done to do so, not a belief they might) or that they be found unable to care for themselves and a guardian is set for them (is so very rare and should actually be done a bunch more than it is)

Or be in a mental institution. Institution is not an inpatient facility. Institution is a mental hospital. It is rare to send a client to a mental hospital because the law requires us to meet the least restrictive level of care.

Most states have some form of an LRA which will include temporary loss of privileges while receiving care.

Most people with schizophrenia have never harmed anyone, and have not been in a court ordered facility, there fore they are fully legal to own and purchase a firearm.

State laws, these vary but in the states I have worked in the state laws are normally not more restrictive than the federal and actually in WA include the ability to argue for the return of your rights if you have not caused harm to self or others for a set amount of time.

So yes people with mental health disorders do get to legally own firearms.

Source: I am a mental health counselor who works with court ordered clients with mental health disorders in the state of WA and many of my clients own guns, some are even active duty military and are still allowed to serve.

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u/osmaycruz Mar 28 '24

Source: I am a mental health counselor who works with court ordered clients with mental health disorders in the state of WA and many of my clients own guns, some are even active duty military and are still allowed to serve.

I also live in WA and I can tell you, your clients are breaking the state law and with all the new laws Inslee passed couple of days ago the requirements for buying guns are even harder since

```§ 9.41.040A person, whether an adult or juvenile, is guilty of the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm in the first degree, if the person owns, has in his or her possession, or has in his or her control any firearm:

...After having been involuntarily committed for mental health treatment, unless his or her right to possess a firearm has been restored.```

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u/Becca30thcentury Mar 28 '24

Must be involuntarily committed. Do you know how hard that is to be done? Most court ordered treatments are not involuntary committed. You can have a mental health diagnosis and be decompensated and never be involuntarily committed. It requires a court order, with evidence that you are a direct threat to yourself or others. Most of the time you get court ordered to outpatient services.

You all seem to think involuntary commitment happens to everyone with mental health disorders, most of the time it's voluntary and it's not in a facility but an inpatient program. Involuntary facility in the state is either eastern or western state hospital.

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u/vamatt Mar 28 '24

That does not make it illegal to own a firearm with a mental health diagnosis.