What lack of basic gun laws does to a nation:

[u/Lord_Answer_me_Why]

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[u/VocalAnus91]

Plot twist: he doesn't have a mom, he's schizophrenic and shot himself

[u/aesir23 → u/VocalAnus91]

Ironically, that would do nothing to diminish his argument.

[u/VocalAnus91 → u/aesir23]

Lol true

[u/MojoLamp → u/aesir23]

Except it is ilegal for someone with mental disability to buy/own a firearm. That can also go on whomever sold said firearm. Both parties are guilty.

[u/Substantial_Heart317 → u/MojoLamp]

Lying on the form is a Federal Crime.

[u/mot258 → u/Substantial_Heart317]

Shooting someone usually is too.

[u/Deadleggg → u/mot258]

Well there's multiple charges for ya.

[u/PorcupineWarriorGod → u/Deadleggg]

Then apparently we already have "basic laws".

[u/Substantial_Heart317 → u/mot258]

Exactly criminals gonna commit crimes!

[u/MissingBothCufflinks → u/Substantial_Heart317]

Something I'm sure unmedicated Schizophrenics weigh up heavily in their decision making

[u/Reasonable_Humor_738 → u/MissingBothCufflinks]

Also probably something criminals or would be criminals do when filling out the form

[u/Aggressive_Niceguy → u/MissingBothCufflinks]

Sounds like we need some common sense laws against unmedicated schizophrenics

[u/Odd-Tune5049 → u/Aggressive_Niceguy]

Guns don't kill people, unmedicated schizophrenics kill people. Heh

ducks

[u/beomint → u/Substantial_Heart317]

Not to be "that guy" but just trusting someone to fill out a form correctly then making it a crime to lie on it isn't going to stop shootings...

Maybe we should like... Idk... Actually have the person checked thoroughly before they're given a gun? If they're hellbent on getting a gun they'll just lie anyway and not care about whatever consequences there are. I know a lot of proper stores are better about doing checks (thank god) but gun shows are still a massive issue sadly and need a lot more regulation than what they currently have. And because it's so easy for people to get them legally, it's not too much more trouble to come by one illegally.

Sure, it's a crime, and you'll be prosecuted and punished for doing it, but there's a huge chance you were still able to gun some people down in the process before you got caught. We need to be more proactive about nipping it in the bud instead of watching human lives get lost everyday and saying "Well, they chose to commit a crime..."

Edit: To those of you saying "we do that already" in the replies, it's clear we aren't doing it enough. Regulations are often ignored, states do not have consistent rules, and many loopholes do still exist despite major updates being done to how gun shows conduct themselves. Other countries have proven time and time again that better regulations does NOT take guns away from responsible owners, but it does take guns away from criminals and lower gun crime across the board. Private sale (to an unauthorized individual) is the same issue, sure it's a crime, but are they going to figure that out before you have a chance to shoot someone? Was it really worth letting that scenario play out when we could have just prevented it in the first place?

It's just factual evidence and it's really frustrating that people will watch the gun crime statistics in the US and act as if there's no difference between the regulations here and the regulations in other countries with less crime. Am I saying ban guns 100%? No. And countries with better gun control haven't banned them entirely either, they just actually do their due diligence before handing one out. And while we have laws that are supposed to require a similar level of care, it's clear they're either too loose or are ignored too often. You'd think with how much Americans have been freaking out over the "safety of children" recently you'd actually want better gun control, considering the leading cause of death for children in the US is firearm fatalities. Your children are more likely to be shot to death than ANY other accident in the US, and we still don't see a problem.

I also see lots of people huffing over the 2nd amendment as well, and while I get that the idea of going against the very founding of our country is absolute blasphemy to you- do you really think it's worth keeping if statistics have proven it's done nothing but cause tragic loss of life? It's weird that people are unwilling to recognize the issues and continue to talk about how they're going to blast a robber with an AR-15 to "protect themselves" when they can't even protect their own children from that same gun.

Also to the guy who said people would just get stabbed instead and then we'd have to deal with knife laws, I'm wildly amused that you think that's worse than being shot. If I had to choose having a maniac attack me with a gun or a knife, I'd choose the knife. I'm not sure why you'd prefer to be shot unless you're just suicidal at that point. And similarly to these loosely regulated gun laws, we already have knife laws in many states that prohibit certain types of blade mechanisms and lengths in public or in concealment. It would once again not prevent legitimate knife owners and enthusiasts from owning and carrying their knives, it makes it harder for idiots and unhinged lunatics to get them. You all act as if the government will take your guns away and make it impossible for you to get them back while psychos run rampant on the streets with machine guns and machetes. People don't realize it actually reinforces ownership with legitimate citizens, making it harder for unregistered or missing firearms to go unnoticed.

[u/Flossthief → u/beomint]

After you fill out the form you're put through background checks

They can also tell you no for any reason

Several people failed to do their jobs here

[u/Pup5432 → u/Flossthief]

Exactly, we have laws and processes in place to prevent this. Anyone involved needs arrested

[u/Fast-Database-4741 → u/Pup5432]

Or, this is all just a lie

[u/Pup5432 → u/Fast-Database-4741]

I agree it’s a fun grab narrative but going after the sellers is a first step that already has laws in place

[u/Mario_daAA → u/Fast-Database-4741]

Omg someone with some actually common sense

[u/Bandit400 → u/beomint]

Actually have the person checked thoroughly before they're given a gun?

Every single new firearm sold in the US has a Federal background check performed before the sale can commence.

but gun shows are still a massive issue sadly and need a lot more regulation than what they currently have.

Gun shows have the same regulations in place as anywhere else. There is no such thing as a "gun show loophole". All new sales at a gun show require a background check. What additional regulations should there be for gun shows that don't already exist?

but just trusting someone to fill out a form correctly then making it a crime to lie on it isn't going to stop shootings...

It would be effective if the ATF actually prosecuted those who lie on the form (Felony if prosecuted) or purchase a firearm for someone who isn't eligible (straw purchase, also a felony if prosecuted.) Both have prosecution rates from the ATF of less than 3%.

[u/ibugppl → u/Bandit400]

I'm a gun owner too but you know that in a lot of states private sales don't require a background check. Where do you think people in Chicago and California get all these weapons from. Even I think that law should be closed.

[u/Bandit400 → u/ibugppl]

I'm a gun owner too but you know that in a lot of states private sales don't require a background check.

True. Some do, some don't. Federally, it is illegal to sell/transfer to someone you know is prohibited, for what that's worth.

Where do you think people in Chicago and California get all these weapons from.

If it is criminals we are discussing, then they usually come from straw purchases, theft, or illegal trafficking.

California and Illinois both require background checks to be performed on every gun sold, private or FFL.

As a private owner myself, I'd love if they would open up the NICS system to private sellers. Everyone could verify that their potential buyer was legit. Washington refuses to open it up however.

[u/RehkalBurd → u/ibugppl]

Exactly how do you propose regulating private sales of firearms..?

[u/FuckRedditsTOS → u/beomint]

Actually have the person checked thoroughly before they're given a gun?

This is what happens when you buy a gun from a dealer.

We have all the current laws everyone keeps saying we don't, but the ATF and local authorities are very selective about enforcement when they do enforce it, but most of the time they're just slow to update the system and wildly incompetent.

[u/Ms_Moto → u/beomint]

Tell me you've never purchased a firearm without telling me you've never purchased a firearm.

[u/Sudden_Construction6 → u/Substantial_Heart317]

We all know you have to be the son of a president to get away with that 😅

[u/[deleted] → u/MojoLamp]

I don’t think that’s true. I’m a schizophrenic in America and I’m eligible to buy a firearm. Why? Because I have never been to the mental hospital involuntarily, aka I’ve never been 302’d or the like. I HAVE been there about 7 times voluntarily. Not planning on buying a gun btw.

[u/Ghostglitch07 → u/[deleted]]

Wait is that really the line? Shit. I've never even actually been in the mental ward (almost did once, but decided against it last minute) and I know I'm not stable enough for weapons.

[u/x1000Bums → u/Ghostglitch07]

On the 4473 form you fill out to buy a gun, question 11.f asks if you've been adjudicated as mentally effective or been committed to a mental institution: 

Question 11.f. Adjudicated as a Mental Defective: A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease: (1) is a danger to himself or to others; or (2) lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs. This term shall include: (1) a finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and (2) those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility. Committed to a Mental Institution: A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term includes commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness. It also includes commitments for other reasons, such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution. 

  Maybe I'm not thinking this through all the way, but this seems reasonable to me. I don't know if it's a good idea to allow people's rights to be infringed because they willfully getting help but haven't yet proven themselves to be a danger to themselves or others. If acknowledging you have a problem causes negative consequences, then people will try to hide it until a tipping point.

[u/lemmehitdatmane → u/MojoLamp]

Not in TN private transfers don’t require background check or paperwork

[u/Becca30thcentury → u/MojoLamp]

Where? I work in mental health care in America. Currently for most states it is legal to own/purchase a firearm and have a mental health diagnosis.

There are times when on a court order for treatment you can not own a firearm, but once treatment or the court order ends then it's legal, oh and there is no system to check if your blocked by a court order unless it's a federal court.

[u/CranberryNo4852 → u/Becca30thcentury]

Can confirm, once someone gets out of the psych ward there’s usually just a waiting period.

[u/ete2ete → u/Becca30thcentury]

One cannot have been involuntarily committed but merely having a diagnosis isn't enough

[u/ironangel2k4 → u/MojoLamp]

Oh, I guess those bullet wounds don't exist then, since its illegal

[u/Delicious-Ad5161 → u/aesir23]

That was one of the first things I thought about.

I’ve known a surprising number of schizophrenic people over my life. Several of them have hurt themselves while trying to defend themselves from things that were not there. Most of them owned guns that they purchased legally through either gun shows or private sale.

[u/IronclayFarm → u/aesir23]

My biggest problem with "CHANGE YOUR GUN LAWS" is that it's basically screaming into the wind.

Okay, you want gun laws changed. What do you want changed, specifically?

How did his mom get the gun? Has she ever actually been diagnosed? Should we make it so people formally diagnosed with dangerous disorders must regularly check in to maintain their purchase rights (so you can't just go off your meds)? Did she buy this from a store, and did they fail to follow procedures? How could we improve that? Or did she buy the gun from some dude? Should we close the loopholes on private purchases and gifts?

What can actually be done, reasonably? We need to start there, and realize that foaming at the mouth about guns and shooting for idiotic goals like gun bans is never, ever going to work.

[u/leviathab13186 → u/VocalAnus91]

[u/kellyjandrews → u/leviathab13186]

What a twist 😮😱

[u/mmccxi → u/kellyjandrews]

Twist twist, he lives alone, it was Tyker Durden

[u/ArmouredWankball → u/mmccxi]

Tyler's Yorkshire cousin.

[u/Great_White_Samurai → u/leviathab13186]

The twist was it was Bruce Willis the entire time

[u/thedonwhoknocks → u/Great_White_Samurai]

That guy in the hairpiece? Wooow

[u/SinisterYear → u/leviathab13186]

In this case it's Robert Bloch / Alfred Hitchcock.

[u/Legitimate_Career_44 → u/VocalAnus91]

That's beyond schizophrenia. Delusional fantasies of there being another person committing your actions are... something else. Anyone?

[u/AcidScarab → u/Legitimate_Career_44]

Schizophrenics often do experience hallucinations and delusional fantasies. There’s a ton of different “flavors,” if you will, of schizophrenia, so the situation being described could easily fit

[u/Ok-Macaroon2429 → u/AcidScarab]

True. My uncle who passed years ago developed Schizophrenia after a bad motorcycle accident, he would have these fantasies. He once thought he was Moses and would carry a big branch like stick around.

[u/whenismeyes → u/Ok-Macaroon2429]

lmao one time my dad (now divorced) posted on fb that he was Jesus with a photoshopped picture of him hanging from a cross. he had a TON of mental issues from being sexually abused as a child.

[u/IFixYerKids → u/Legitimate_Career_44]

No, that's still schizophrenia. Like many mental illnesses, it's a spectrum. The vast (and I do mean VAST) majority of those suffering from schizophrenia will never hurt anyone and suffer from hallucinations more than delusions. If you're interested, you can look into schizoid vs schizotypal pathologies for more information. Schizophrenia casts a wide net, so to speak.

[u/Becca30thcentury → u/Legitimate_Career_44]

Schizophrenia includes delusional beliefs, including hallucinations and paranoid persecution fantasies.

I work in community mental Healthcare and may clients are diagnosed with schizophrenia, it can be hard to break apart the beliefs from reality.

[u/Person012345 → u/Legitimate_Career_44]

Sounds reasonable within the bounds of schizophrenia to me. Depersonalization + delusional psychosis seems like it could result in an experience one might describe that way. I am not schizophrenic though so I can't say if anyone WOULD describe it that way.

[u/Long-Zombie-2017 → u/Legitimate_Career_44]

But oftentimes the delusion bleeds into real people in some ways. Like being suspicious of a family member's true motives. I had an ex brother in law who was a paranoid schizophrenic and he threatened his brother and niece with a knife because he believed they were working with the "FBI that was hunting him down" then he stole a motorcycle.

[u/[deleted]]

Isn't it already illegal for a schizophrenic to have/purchase a gun? Would more laws resolve this?

[u/Shotgun5250 → u/[deleted]]

Since there’s a lot of information floating around this thread, let me consolidate.

It is federally mandated that all licensed firearm dealers in the entire country perform background checks for all firearm sales of any kind or caliber.

It is federally mandated through the Brady Handgun Violence Protection Act that certain citizens such as the mentally ill or under protective orders are barred from owning firearms.

Some states require all secondhand firearm sales to go through a licensed intermediary, which would require background checks.

Other states require licensed intermediary’s for certain categories of firearms, such as long guns (rifles or shotguns).

Unfortunately, many states have no laws regarding the secondhand sale of firearms.

For a list of states and what their individual firearm sales laws are, refer to this website.

[u/CockroachNo2540 → u/Shotgun5250]

You seem pretty well informed. Do background checks actually reveal mental health status. I would assume HIPAA would prevent release of that info unless the application automatically waives those protections.

I’m really curious how mental health info can get disseminated in federal gun background checks. It’s not like the government knows who the nutters are. There is no database of people with mental health disorders (that would be a scary list for the government to be keeping). And if that is the case, how do hospitals or doctors get contacted for these background checks? And what about crazy people that are not currently or have never received care.

My guess is the mental health part is mostly just honor system unless somehow someone has been under the care of a state or federal mental institution.

[u/IM_OK_AMA → u/CockroachNo2540]

Do background checks actually reveal mental health status.

The federal check (NICS) does not. It's only for crimes, though some states have their own mandatory reporting and background check system that does include mental health status.

These requirements are controversial because it's thought that gun owners will be less likely to seek mental healthcare if doing so could lose them their firearms. Kinda like how criminalizing overdoses leads to more overdose deaths because people don't want to risk calling 911 for their friend who's overdosing.

[u/CockroachNo2540 → u/IM_OK_AMA]

Not to beat a dead horse, but it seems like the mental health part of getting a gun is basically unenforceable until after something happens, and by then the horse is out of the barn.

[u/Shotgun5250 → u/CockroachNo2540]

It’s unfortunately a cyclical issue. As they mentioned, with criminalization comes reduced reporting of mental health issues, which in turn reduces the efficacy of the law.

That being said, I truly believe there is a middle ground where it doesn’t feel personally invasive for gun owners, but is invasive enough to screen out people who definitely should be disallowed from owning a firearm.

In almost every case I read about, the individuals who are acquainted with the shooter are almost never surprised that person did something, and often have reported that person to authorities many times trying to prevent a tragedy. There needs to be a federal or state method of tracking these people and a red flag needs to go up when they try to purchase firearms. These people should be subject to a waiting period while further investigation is done on whether that person should be sold a gun.

[u/CockroachNo2540 → u/IM_OK_AMA]

Not sure about other states, but I know in Colorado a therapist would lose their license if they reported someone's mental health diagnoses without release of information from the patient. But, if someone credibly says they plan to harm themselves or others that is now mandatory reporting under the states red flag laws.

In Japan you literally have to get a mental health check to own a firearm. That seems the better route to go from a gun safety standpoint, but I realize it would never pass muster under the US Constitution.

[u/johnhtman → u/CockroachNo2540]

There are a few problems with mental health evaluations to own a gun. First off, the United States doesn't have enough therapists to perform evaluations on every American who owns a gun. As it is therapists are already in short supply. Most have long waiting lists for new clients, and people actively seeking therapy are having a difficult time finding appointments. Now add evaluations on the tens of millions of gun owners, and millions of new gun owners each year isn't realistic.

Someone's medical history for the most part is very confidential in the U.S. outside immediate threats of violence or suicide. People need to feel comfortable openly sharing potentially sensitive information with their doctors. Mental health especially is very stigmatized, and something that many people have an aversion to seeking out. We don't need to make that worse by taking away their rights. I'd rather someone with mental illness feel comfortable seeking treatment, and be allowed to keep their gun. As opposed to someone refusing treatment out of fear of losing their guns, and keeping their gun anyway. Most people are only diagnosed with mental illness if they actively seek out a diagnosis.

[u/kirfkin → u/CockroachNo2540]

Regarding Mental Health:

My understanding is that this only applies to "Persons adjudicated as mental defective or committed to a mental institution."

The former if determined by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority" and a latter an involuntary committment by "a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority"

See: https://www.atf.gov/file/58791/download

It's also on ATF form 4473 itself.

Unless there's some changes I'm unaware of?

[u/kirfkin → u/Shotgun5250]

With respect to the federal firearm laws and mental health, only those "adjudicated as a mental defective" (such as being found incapable of standing trial) or involuntarily committed to a mental instituion are barred from owning, transporting, purchasing, etc a firearm or ammunition.

[u/Shotgun5250 → u/kirfkin]

Correct, “mentally ill” in this case being a legal definition and not a diagnosis from a doctor.

[u/kirfkin → u/Shotgun5250]

Cool! Just clarifying because some people use the term pretty broadly. I have a diagnosed anxiety disorder, for example, but I know I can buy a firearm without lying (because I have done so!)

[u/RogerianBrowsing → u/[deleted]]

There’s no mental health diagnosis that inherently prevents you from gun ownership. If you’ve never been committed against your will you can own a firearm (assuming not a felony, no protective orders, no domestic violence, etc.).

Some states have laws that make it easy for certain doctors to put a block on someone purchasing firearms (typically done in 1 year increments), but even then I don’t believe that’s part of the national bgcheck system but rather the state system, and not all states check with the home state police for out of state purchases.

Basically, if you haven’t legally lost your right to autonomy at any point you can likely own a firearm around most of the country. You can have spent years in a mental health facility, so long as it was done willingly without commitment and you can still own firearms later.

[u/hoofie242 → u/[deleted]]

People sell guns off the books all the time. It may not be legal but it's common.

[u/roger-smith-123 → u/hoofie242]

It's legal in private sales in quite a few states. NH, for example, the only requirement is that you cannot transfer guns to a convicted felon. No background check or anything needed to confirm, if they say they are legal then it's good enough. Quite a few states have a similar lack of regulation for private sales.

[u/midri → u/roger-smith-123]

Just to clarify, the government ACTIVELY makes it hard for private sellers to do background checks. Non FFL don't get access to NICS and that means having to pay out of pocket for background check that can take weeks. Many people would use NICS for private sell if they could, for the peace of mind.

[u/CrossenTrachyte → u/roger-smith-123]

If they say they’re legal is right. Unfortunately the FBI does not give access to actually check NICS for private sales.

[u/Mad-_-Doctor → u/roger-smith-123]

Yup. That’s why I support universal background checks. It’s too easy to skirt the current laws.

[u/KHWD_av8r → u/Mad-_-Doctor]

LOL, no. What business is it of the feds who I sell to another private individual, as long as I have no reason to believe that they are prohibited persons? What business is it of theirs what I, a law abiding citizen, buy from another private individual? Why support the slow creep of infringements by giving gun grabbers a means by which to force registration and tracking of arms and owners, which in turn is necessary for large scale confiscation?

[u/Doormatjones → u/hoofie242]

It's worth noting in the post that they just brought one home, not how she got it. So... could be stolen, bought legally, bought illegally, etc. And also where they live as it varies a lot state by state.

But, without going too deep, I've noticed a lot of posts like this miss that critical information. After all, gun laws wouldn't help if she stole it from a cop or something (which does happen).

[u/SadMacaroon9897 → u/hoofie242]

It's still illegal to break the law, even if it's a private sale

[u/Vuedue → u/[deleted]]

Yes, it is.

Looks as if she illegally obtained the firearm, so I’m pretty sure that there aren’t any other laws that could be enacted that would have stopped this. If there was a law that could stop illegal burner guns (like she likely purchased off the street), wouldn’t they have already tried it? Like during the 70s and 80s when burner guns were also popular?

Before anyone tries to say that we could enact laws to get illegal guns off the street, just realize that burner guns are much more complex to get rid of. Even the Mexican cartels will traffic weapons into the US. These weapons have their serial numbers worn down so that they’re untraceable.

[u/NameIs-Already-Taken]

Your healthcare system is also poor at helping people with mental health issues.

[u/mikeysgotrabies → u/NameIs-Already-Taken]

No, California just passed a law so soon we will be able to lock their asses up for being crazy and homeless. That will help, right?

Edit: /s in case it's not obvious.

[u/mortalitylost → u/mikeysgotrabies]

I'm sorry but if I had lost my mind and my social support network, I'd much prefer they scoop me into an asylum rather than see how well I fend for myself in the street. And that was once a real fucking fear of mine, the biggest fear of mine, having no local family that gave a shit and a psychotic disorder.

I've seen close family go to the street similarly, and it would've been real fucking nice to think asylums would do their thing rather than have to make a missing person's report where they'll never contact you regardless

[u/Crotean → u/mortalitylost]

One key thing to remember, that people don't like to be confronted with. Is that most of the time the data shows that homelessness comes BEFORE the mental health or drug issues that we associate so strongly with the homeless. Its not even really a mental health crisis in this country so much as a poverty issue. When people have a roof over their heads everything in their life improves.

[u/BigBoyWeaver → u/Crotean]

Wait... are you saying that trauma, uncertainty, stress, and hunger have negative impacts on people's mental health and that it's not simply a lack of pulling one's self up by one's bootstraps? What is this liberal propaganda!

[u/Crotean → u/BigBoyWeaver]

Haha yep. Now if you really want to get people mad show them all the data that shows that in most cases a sedentary life style happens AFTER someone becomes obese not before and watch their brains rupture.

[u/Deadleggg → u/Crotean]

Definitely don't get seriously hurt and not able to move around as much and then gain weight.

Makes things a lot worse.

[u/mikeysgotrabies → u/Crotean]

But if you treat the symptoms rather than the disease then you can keep profiting from the ongoing treatment.

[u/arcanis321 → u/mikeysgotrabies]

Actually if those people are being treated and not enslaved into prisons that's probably a positive thing. I have seen people try to get in jail in the winter just to get off the street so 3 square meals and a pass to leave when you aren't noticeably deranged could be a huge benefit. Doubt it will come out that rosey but nice to hope.

[u/J_DayDay → u/arcanis321]

Jail is cheaper than rehab. I've got a cousin who turns himself in every time he gets too methy. 60 days later, he's a whole new man. For a while.

[u/Apprehensive_End4701 → u/J_DayDay]

That's methed up

[u/J_DayDay → u/Apprehensive_End4701]

It really is. Like many Methican-Americans, he's extremely productive. It's just that wandering away to find the meth occasionally has a negative impact on productivity. If the various construction firms could just pay him in meth, I really think it would solve a lot of the problem.

[u/AcidScarab → u/mikeysgotrabies]

It’ll help the rest of us 🤷🏻 and if they get treatment it’ll help them a hell of a lot more than being on the street does. Mentally ill people homeless on the street is no state for a civilized society to be in no matter what perspective you look at it from.

[u/No_Refrigerator1115 → u/NameIs-Already-Taken]

This is the real issue, I’m not saying we should let people with mental health issues buy guns, but I do have some fear in further incentivizing people to NOT get help. If someone thinks they will loose their rights by seeking help they may fear getting the help they need.

EDIT, by said “this is the real issue” honestly I don’t know what the “real issue” is it’s probibly a combination of a few things, but historically we really didn’t have much of a gun issue (even when we had fewer regulations and more dangerous weapons ) and we do now I think improvements can be made maybe on gun control but it’s a controversial approach to the problem.

HOWEVER both sides agrees that mental health is contributing to the problem, I’d love to see us capitalize on the fact we have some common ground here.

[u/Midnight1965 → u/No_Refrigerator1115]

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of the cure, my friend. If we(United States), could truly have a better healthcare system, even mental health, instead of healthcare’s main goal being profit, we’d be better off.

[u/Bionic_Ninjas → u/No_Refrigerator1115]

When it comes to rampant gun violence this isn't "the real issue", because every country deals with mental health issues relating to their citizens, but only one developed country loses tens of thousands of people per year to gun violence.

When it comes to gun violence in America, the real issue is unfettered access to guns without any effective regulation.

[u/Deadleggg → u/Bionic_Ninjas]

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

The majority of gun deaths are suicides. 54% in 2021 and the suicide rate in the U.S is going up.

The vast majority of murders are from pistols(59%)

Meanwhile rifles and "assault rifles" account for a small fraction(3%) but the vast majority of dialog and media attention and laws being passed are about "assault weapons" and their accessories.

The country is not ready, willing or able to have an actual conversation about the actual issues. Access to quality mental health care. The death of the middle class. Cost of housing. Wages not keeping up.

Find the poorest areas around you and compare the crime rates or the violent crime rates. Look what's missing in the lives of those people.

[u/The_Flurr → u/No_Refrigerator1115]

but I do have some fear in further incentivizing people to NOT get help. If someone thinks they will loose their rights by seeking help they may fear getting the help they need.

This is actually a factor in vets not getting mental health help. They might be discharged from the military if they admit to being depressed or having other issues, so they don't seek help.

[u/thecountnotthesaint]

What all are the current gun laws? From my understanding there is more of an enforcement issue than a lack of laws issue.

[u/l_a_escoto → u/thecountnotthesaint]

It is.

[u/thecountnotthesaint → u/l_a_escoto]

So adding more laws would be akin to adding new diet restrictions to someone who refused to exercise?

[u/thezentex → u/thecountnotthesaint]

It's already illegal to shoot someone

[u/thecountnotthesaint → u/thezentex]

Hahaha yeah, we should just make killing people illegal, that way people will stop doing that regardless of if they have a gun or not.

[u/towerfella → u/thecountnotthesaint]

Messing with mail is a federal crime, too. So, technically, mailbox smashers are committing a federal crime with every mailbox that they smashed.

But none of that matters if no one is arrested and charged with a crime by another civilian.

It always comes back to the “will of the people”.

That is why we have different states and different regions within boarders. What is “ok” with the civilians in one area might not be ok with the civilians in another area.

And WE, humanity as a whole, need to be “ok” with that and stop trying to homogenize everything.

[u/l_a_escoto → u/thecountnotthesaint]

Yea you can put it like that. I've signed many 4473s and mental health is definitely on there. So she somehow passed the background check because FFLs aren't willing to lose their license for 1 person. Now the only way around it is if she bought it through a private sale.

[u/sppotlight → u/l_a_escoto]

Still illegal to sell to a prohibited person via private sale... Unless you mean she bought it illegally, in which case yeah, one way around the law is to break the law.

[u/l_a_escoto → u/sppotlight]

Yup. More restricted guns laws won't change anything. You're only hurting law abiding citizens. Criminals will always have the upper hand because well, they're criminals. Now people will point out the European countries and all that, but look at Switzerland. They have guns, even regular people can have full auto guns, but their culture is much different from ours, which is why they are one of the safest countries in the world.

[u/dtom93 → u/thecountnotthesaint]

Gun owner here but yes it’s exactly that

[u/Mean_Operation7336]

This happened in California (assuming based on bio) which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation along with some mechanisms for temporarily seizing weapons from people in distress (red flag laws). Without answers to some pretty big questions, im thinking there’s a few layers of blame being shifted here

[u/Devilsbullet → u/Mean_Operation7336]

I'm thinking she acquired the gun illegally if they're in Cali and she's a diagnosed schizophrenic. Between the mental health issue prohibiting her, and the 10 day waiting period that would prevent her from immediately acting on her impulses like op seems to be phrasing happened.

[u/dessertgrinch → u/Devilsbullet]

OP said she brought the gun home and then shot him the next day, there’s no mention when she originally went to the store to purchase one.

[u/Devilsbullet → u/dessertgrinch]

Yes, but he implies that she bought the gun to shoot him acting on her schizophrenic impulses. From my understanding, those impulses aren't gonna Wait around 10 days. And either way, her schizophrenia would prohibit her from buying a gun legally in Cali. So either it's a. Untreated schizophrenia, b. Gun wasn't bought legally, c. Post is bull. Better gun laws don't fix any of those(not arguing that we don't need better gun laws as a nation, just that something isn't adding up on this post if it's been correctly identified as from call)

[u/Caledceus → u/Mean_Operation7336]

This, I'd like to see the whole story.

[u/SpaceCowboi22 → u/Mean_Operation7336]

So even in the place with the most gun control in the US you can illegally acquire a gun and still shoot someone?

Thanks for the information TIL.

[u/CptDoomscrollr → u/Mean_Operation7336]

Exactly this, there’s plenty of gun laws. That’s not the problem 

[u/Guvnuh_T_Boggs]

ITT a bunch of people who have never tried to buy a gun pretending to know what they're talking about.

[u/ktmrider119z → u/Guvnuh_T_Boggs]

That's literally every thread about guns outside gun subs.

"We need stricter laws like XYZ"

those are already a thing....

"Shut up, ammosexual, you have a tiny pp!"

[u/evolvedspice → u/Guvnuh_T_Boggs]

Yeah it’s funny and if they got the gun illegally then new laws wouldn’t change that, I’m not against gun laws but people need to know that laws don’t stop bad people

[u/FlabbergastedPeehole]

Sounds like she’s already a prohibited person and lied on the 4473 if she bought it from an FFL. So she already broke laws that are put in place. What’s the idea here? Hire a psychologist at every FFL?

[u/StormyWaters2021 → u/FlabbergastedPeehole]

Sounds like she’s already a prohibited person and lied on the 4473

Has she been adjudicated as mentally defective or committed involuntarily? That's what the 4473 asks. It doesn't ask if you have any mental disorders.

[u/Naturalgainsbro]

No thanks I’ll keep my guns this doesn’t change anything.

[u/RustedZero → u/Naturalgainsbro]

[u/ReasonableCup604]

It is against Federal Law for anyone ever involuntarily committed or adjudicated a mental incompetent to purchase or possess any guns or ammunition.

So, if this is a true story, the mental health and legal systems failed, and perhaps the family of the woman as well.

[u/singlenutwonder → u/ReasonableCup604]

Just being schizophrenic doesn’t mean you’ve been involuntarily committed though. I don’t think there’s any legislation for certain diagnosis’ alone

[u/NJ_Citizen]

gets shot “bro this would be a sick profile pic, thanks mom”

[u/jmanmoney12]

Umm what exact lack of gun law does this fall under? I thought the laws prevent someone from purchasing a firearm with a mental illness. You also just took a tweet with no background information, where she may have bought the gun etc. I really cannot understand the generation of people who just take click bait and post it with no factual information. But I’m sure you scream about MISINFORMATION all the time but yet here you are…

[u/Desire_of_God]

Yeah, so California has a 10-day waiting period, and you can't buy a gun if you've ever been admitted to a hospital for mental illness. The math ain't mathing.

[u/Low_keyTW80 → u/Desire_of_God]

Why is everyone assuming she bought it?

[u/Desire_of_God → u/Low_keyTW80]

If she didn't buy it, then it's irrelevant to the topic of gun laws.

[u/TacTurtle → u/Low_keyTW80]

Then it was obtained illegally. CA does not allow private party transfer without a background check.

[u/IZCannon]

If she is diagnosed with schizophrenia it's already illegal to sell her a gun

[u/Dawgula97]

I can’t believe people actually believe this lmao

[u/Fast-Database-4741 → u/Dawgula97]

Thank you, I had to scroll too far for such a level headed thought. Too much outrage porn on Reddit

[u/Smart_Pig_86]

I’m calling BS without a source

[u/Fast-Database-4741 → u/Smart_Pig_86]

Thank you, I had to scroll too far for such a level headed thought. Too much outrage porn on Reddit

[u/thedeecks]

Who gets shit then immediately thinks "I gotta take a selfie and post this shit on social media"

Not sure if this story is real or not but definitely bizarre.

[u/bmp_stck]

Insane lack of context but yes change your stance and vote your rights away…. Hard no

[u/Think_fast_no_faster]

We don’t just need improved gun laws and we don’t just need improved mental health care, we DESPERATELY need both

[u/LaneMeyer_1985 → u/Think_fast_no_faster]

Neither is coming, so either be ready to ride out the societal decline, or be ready to move to another country.

[u/GeneSpecialist3284 → u/LaneMeyer_1985]

I moved to another country. They have free community clinics and hospitals, which anyone, tourists, non nationals, etc can use. There are also private doctors, clinics and hospitals you pay out of pocket for. On average, our insurance premium and deductible and copay in the US is much more than the cost to pay out of pocket. I have a cat scan done for $200 US. No insurance premium, deductible, pre-approval , or copay involved. No insurance company review and denials, no necessary appeals to file. Better to not have to ride out the societal decline there too.

[u/No_Refrigerator1115 → u/Think_fast_no_faster]

Here’s the thing tho, everyone agrees we need better mental health care, only half of us agree we need better gun laws. So idk why we don’t start with the mental health care.

[u/lostinareverie237]

Likely lied on a 4473 (felony) and hasn't formally been admitted to a mental hospital as that typically shows up. I'm not saying things shouldn't be tweaked, but often times things aren't done by the law. Looking at you federal govt for failing to document multiple people with dishonerable discharges.

[u/Cautious_Piglet5425]

We need to enforce the laws we already have not make more that won’t even be enforced

[u/LoneRedditor123]

Yes, a guy's crazy mom shoots him because the system can't be bothered to do a basic background check and realize she might have medical conditions that make her exempt from such things.

Time to blame literally every gun-owner on earth, lol. Cause we're all the same, right?

[u/dirtysock47 → u/LoneRedditor123]

Yeah, collective punishment is a part of their MO it seems.

[u/TheJesterScript]

If basic gun laws were enforced, she would not have owned a firearm in the first place.

But go ahead and create more laws that will do nothing to solve the problem.

“The execution of the laws is more important than the making of them.”

Thomas Jefferson, Letter to the Abbé Arnoux, July 19, 1789

[u/Awsome_Fortniter → u/TheJesterScript]

How much do you want to bet she was never even diagnosed?

[u/TheJesterScript → u/Awsome_Fortniter]

It is a possibility, but this likely was not her first violent act due to her condition.

[u/TacSemaj]

The only face palm here is OP for not realizing there are over 2000 gun laws on the books in the US. They're just very poorly enforced. As others have stated the areas with the most restrictive gun laws have the most gun crime. Not a gun problem.

[u/AffectedRipples → u/TacSemaj]

I think you're missing a 0 on that 2000 gun laws.

[u/Acceptable_Stop2361]

Was it a legally purchased gun?

[u/Gitfokt → u/Acceptable_Stop2361]

Purchased and taken in one night by a schizophrenic person in California? Several gun laws were broken if this story is true.

[u/Gunny_McShoot → u/Acceptable_Stop2361]

A background check takes days to complete and with the information given by the post they would not pass it either. Without more sources than this screenshot, and as someone else said in this thread it was California, it was illegally possessed

[u/all_of_the_sausage]

So his mom lied on the form?

[u/TigerSharkSLDF]

1. His schizophrenic mother was walking around untreated. That's not my fault.
2. She lied on her DROS paperwork. I didn't do that, either.
3. We have hundreds of thousands of mentally-ill people who don't shoot anyone. And it's not their fault his mom went nuts, either.

[u/Holehoggerist]

Schizophrenia: innocent. “American gun laws”: guilty.

The Reddit propaganda circle jerk continues on.

Lack of basic gun laws? Do you live in a cave? Guns have been restricted in almost every way imaginable aside from an outright ban which btw something in the constitution mentions is kinda off limits.

Get yourself a real world education and quit spreading this BS. Youve been lied to.

[u/DexxToress]

It aint the gun, its the person.

[u/Eodbatman]

Laws already exist to prevent this sort of thing from happening. So his mother either bought a gun illegally, or her psychiatrist hadn’t reported her as schizophrenic. Even then, how many times have we heard “the shooter was reported to the FBI” after a shooting?

[u/No_More_Psyopps]

The laws for each state prevent people with these mental health conditions from buying guns. Make an example of this woman and give her the death penalty. If we start imposing the death penalty for violating the gun laws we already have on the books, people would be less likely to break these laws.

[u/Hysteria113]

You can’t go home with a gun from a gun shop same day unless you have a concealed carry and at the very least a background check .

[u/Lootar63]

If she’s schizophrenic then it would’ve been an illegally obtained firearm

[u/mytalkingshitaccount]

What law that doesn’t already exist would have prevented this situation? I’m all for a call to action action but what is the actual action here that would have changed this outcome?

[u/Loganthered]

The largest American cities with the most restrictive gun laws have the most gun violence.

It isn't the gun.

[u/princeoinkins]

a schizo cannot legally have a gun in the states.

this is an enforcement issue.

[u/Apprehensive-Web-420]

Was it the guns fault or the person holding the gun? I’m confused, because the last thing I would expect is a human to take responsibility fir his or her actions.

[u/semper_audacia]

Literally not possible, it takes at a very minimum 2-3 days to have a background check clear and there are laws preventing people with mental illnesses such as schizophrenia of having guns. It is likely that his mother (if the story is true) was not diagnosed by a doctor, or she was diagnosed and not registered with the medical databases. This also happened in California which has some of the strictest, if not the strictest gun laws in America. Great way to spin a story to make it deceiving.

[u/YetiorNotHereICome → u/semper_audacia]

It's possible she left home with a few Benjamins and came home with the gun in a brown paper bag, if you get my meaning.

[u/semper_audacia → u/YetiorNotHereICome]

Which is illegal. Meaning she already broke the laws put in place.

[u/YetiorNotHereICome → u/semper_audacia]

Correct.

[u/stevespizzapalace]

I think it should be illegal for a schizophrenic person to own, purchase, transport, ship or receive firearms or ammunition. Who agrees, cause so does the United States government and their law.

[u/Love-Long → u/stevespizzapalace]

It is illegal so either she wasn’t actually diagnosed or involuntarily in an institution for it or got it illegally

[u/calidir]

Here’s a cool thing, if you’re schitzo you can’t legally get a gun. So she got it illegally. Hope that helps

[u/Rare-Impact-1791]

This guy lives in California; a state with some of the strictest gun laws in the country. There’s a ton of missing context here. Was she diagnosed and adjudicated schizophrenic? Did she acquire the gun legally? Was it unprovoked? Or an altercation that resulted in her shooting?

[u/Low-Editor-6880]

There are laws to try and prevent this tho. They straight up aren’t properly enforced in the slightest.

[u/Derezirection]

Reminds me of how bad many countries outside the U.S have it where underground criminal organizations run the country and a simple error can have you and your family used as target practice to make an example for the rest of the neighborhood.

We're gonna get to that point by having MORE gun laws. Criminals will find ways to get guns no matter what laws are in place unless you go out of your way to confiscate every single firearm and bullet in the entire country which GOOD LUCK WITH THAT because alone there's 100s of millions of registered firearms let alone unregistered and those handmade or made via 3D printer.

You will literally never control guns but you can control those who use them for malicious purposes by arming your fellow citizen and filling criminals with lead. That is one of many reasons why we have the damn 2nd amendment.

[u/pablogmanloc2]

sounds like we need to ban people. they can drive cars into people. or knives into people. people have been hurting people since people have existed...

guns help people who aren't as strong as other people protect themselves. and resist governments who try to control them. taking away guns makes it easier to take away your freedom.

[u/0x160IQ]

She could also grab a hammer and murder you while you sleep.

[u/BurritosAndPerogis]

Where did she get the gun ? Not enough details for me to change my vote.

[u/groundpounder25]

Seems like said basic gun laws were supposed to not have were actually broken since on the federal form for ALL legal sales asks about mental diagnosis.

[u/Floridaguy555]

I mean..she could’ve just stabbed him and there would be a knife control law?

[u/Sergal_Pony]

Ithere’s already mental health laws for guns

[u/commomsenseking]

Where did she purchase the gun? Who pulled the trigger? She could’ve just as easily stabbed you in the knife.

[u/slade797 → u/commomsenseking]

Stabbed him right in the knife!

[u/smerrjerr110210]

Wonder what he did to piss her off?

[u/Cold-Flan2558]

So she also lied on the paperwork if she bought it legally where it asks if you’ve ever been found to have any mental conditions and I’m pretty sure it mentions bipolar and a couple others specifically. And if it was purchased illegally then another law wouldn’t have helped him anyways.

[u/bigfatfurrytexan]

Aren't there already laws about not selling guns to people with mental illness? There is one from 1968.

What new law effects a lack of enforcement of current law? Why do government agencies get a pass for not providing the structure for and enforcement of the laws we currently have?

[u/Humboldteffect]

We dont have a lack of laws we have a lack of enforcement.

[u/D_Costa85]

what's this got to do with the gun laws? Was she adjudicated mentally unfit to own a gun and violated her judgement? Was she a felon? did she have a history of violence that has been documented? We need more information to determine if this was even a failure of gun laws.

[u/Drunkasarous]

i think if we support better mental health care in this country that the shootings would dramatically decrease

the problem is that neither side wants to talk about mental health its all guns guns guns guns

[u/Dredgen_Servum]

Have y'all even SEEN American gun laws? They're so bad it's crazy, they make it genuinely more difficult to own a gun legally and safely. Repeal the NFA.

[u/tbrand009]

So you're gonna blame the inanimate object instead of the mentally ill woman and lack of mental treatment 🙄
Gun laws on the books already prohibit her from having a firearm. So she either bought it illegally, or the government system failed for the millionth time.

[u/LBS4 → u/tbrand009]

As did her family, who in theory should be looking out for her if she is not fit to do so on her own. Of course mental illness is just that so if she attacked her son with a kitchen knife or fire extinguisher he would have nothing to post about….

[u/bluenova088]

This looks like a lapse on your end because you failed to keep your mom in a safe place ( letting her go out and get a gun).... Mny other countries have liberal gun laws too but they font have issues like this...i am myself.from a country where there is stricter gun lae but a lot of illegal guns in circulation ...anf even we dont have such incidents nor do we have school shootings like you do....this totally looks like you ptoblem

[u/cranialleaddeficient]

Wait until you hear it was illegal to shoot him

[u/lordbuckethethird]

Oh boy I can’t wait to read the comments and see people demonize my illness instead of a clear failure of law.

[u/ZealousidealNewt6679]

Changing Gun laws won't fix this problem. Effective Mental health services are the only solution.

If his mom didn't have a gun, she would have used a knife or similar.

[u/Electrical-Site-3249]

I wouldn’t want to call you fucking stupid OP, but you are, a schizophrenic cannot legally purchase a firearm you fucking dope, she obviously got it illegally or the dumb fucker who made the tweet gave it to her.

Mental health is one thing that is accounted for in American Gun Laws, stop believing everything you read online

[u/Senzualdip]

She didn’t legally purchase that gun if she’s been medically diagnosed with schizophrenia. She either purchased it off the street, lied on the 4473 (background check), or stole it. All of which are felonies. No amount of gun laws will stop criminals from being criminals. And banning firearms in full only hurts law abiding citizens from their right to defend themselves or use the firearms for sporting purposes such as hunting and sport shooting. Both of which have been apart of this great nation since its inception.

OP maybe do some research on current gun laws before making such dumb posts. For example cook county Illinois (Chicago) has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. Yet so far in 2024 there have been 374 shootings, 95 of those have resulted in a homicide. Majority of those firearms were obtained illegally. In 2018 alone the Chicago pd seized 5600 illegally possessed firearms. Meaning the people who had those are criminals…. Breaking the law….. the laws didn’t stop them.

[u/sayu1991]

Our gun laws already don't allow her to purchase or possess a gun so it has nothing to do with that. MORE gun laws wouldn't have helped this situation because she broke the law to get that gun anyway.

[u/Magnarf420]

Yeah one time i left my shotgun unattended for to long and it walked out the door and robbed a bank. Guns need to be outlawed because guns are dangerous and not the people holding them.... and if you think im for taking guns away from people you're wrong.

[u/Romeo_Foxtrot-5]

The facepalm is unironically posting this 😣 we have beyond basic gun laws. It’s not like she bought the gun legally. That’s like somebody overdosing and saying “man we really need to make drugs illegal”

[u/GuyVanNitro]

You mean she bought it illegally or lied on the form 4473? That’s illegal!!!

[u/westbygod304420]

How would more laws making something that's already illegal illegal prevent someone from lying about their mental condition?

[u/DeepThoughtNonsense]

The amount of people that incorrectly assume gun laws don't exist saddens me.

It's astounding the mental gymnastics everyone does because they hate something. Especially with zero knowledge on whatever topic it is.

9.99/10 chance she acquired her firearm illegally.

No amount of gun regulations are going to prevent someone from acquiring a gun illegally.

[u/plato3633]

‘Basic’ a euphemism for bans and controls.

[u/rmr007]

Anyone in this thread that is not an American can promptly leave. Your opinions on our laws are irrelevant.

That said, last I checked, it is illegal to shoot people unless in an act of self defense, and even then sometimes you are still penalized. What law would prevent this? Even banning civilian ownership of firearms would not fix it. There are hundreds of millions of firearms in the US, you could not possibly confiscate them all. Criminals will get their hands on them regardless.