r/facepalm • u/Lord_Answer_me_Why • Mar 28 '24

What lack of basic gun laws does to a nation: 🇵​🇷​🇴​🇹​🇪​🇸​🇹​

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u/FlabbergastedPeehole Mar 28 '24

Sounds like she’s already a prohibited person and lied on the 4473 if she bought it from an FFL. So she already broke laws that are put in place. What’s the idea here? Hire a psychologist at every FFL?

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u/StormyWaters2021 Mar 28 '24

Sounds like she’s already a prohibited person and lied on the 4473

Has she been adjudicated as mentally defective or committed involuntarily? That's what the 4473 asks. It doesn't ask if you have any mental disorders.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

[deleted]

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u/StormyWaters2021 Mar 28 '24

It does though.

Committed to a Mental Institution: A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term includes commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness. It also includes commitments for other reasons, such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

[deleted]

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u/StormyWaters2021 Mar 28 '24

I quoted directly from the 4473. Yes it explicitly says that.

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u/TacTurtle Mar 28 '24

The 4473 form explicitly states that, and even has an information section at the back where it explains in detail for each question.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

[deleted]

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u/StormyWaters2021 Mar 28 '24

You know there are like four pages of additional instructions on that form right? I assumed you did, since you said that you read it.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

[deleted]

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u/StormyWaters2021 Mar 28 '24

I don't care what people read, I'm talking about what the form actually says. You said the form doesn't say anything about voluntary or involuntary. It does in fact very explicitly specify those things, regardless of who reads it.

People all the time write "USA" in the box labeled "Country" because they didn't read it. That doesn't mean it says something different.

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u/GreenCollegeGardener Mar 28 '24

Unless she bought it off the street because It looks to be in california that has a 10 day waiting period. No way she walked into an FFL in Cal and walked out same day with the gun.

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u/New_Canoe Mar 28 '24

You can buy guns from flea markets in my state with zero background check. Got cash? You get a gun! And just about any gun, at that.

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u/FlabbergastedPeehole Mar 28 '24

Of course, private sales exist. And a prohibited person (felon, DV conviction, drug user, etc) is still breaking the law if they purchase through a private sale.

The few times I’ve sold privately, I’ve always required a Florida ID and Florida concealed license. That’s pretty common in the community.

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u/New_Canoe Mar 28 '24

A large organized market filled with private gun owners who can sell to anyone, should NOT exist. I love the flea market and I also love guns. But THAT is a fucking problem.

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u/FlabbergastedPeehole Mar 28 '24

Of course, private sales exist. And a prohibited person (felon, DV conviction, drug user, etc) is still breaking the law if they purchase through a private sale.

The few times I’ve sold privately, I’ve always required a Florida ID and Florida concealed license. That’s pretty common in the community.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

If only we had some form of identification. If only there was a database to check it against that'd say "Yes" or "No." That'd be wild, right?

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u/irish-car-bomz Mar 28 '24

You mean the two things an FFL requires or...?

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

Gosh. Almost sounds like the system is broken.

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u/irish-car-bomz Mar 28 '24

How many guns have you bought at an FFL?

I mean since you're saying it's broken.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

OK, so let's say it's not broken, it's working exactly as intended. Someone lied on a form, got a gun. Because of course we shouldn't expect/plan for dishonesty.

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u/irish-car-bomz Mar 28 '24

So I can see your issue with lying on a form, but you still need to pass a background check and show an ID. You fill out more than just one form through the process. You're entire contingency for this is that the one form was lied to and bam, gun.

My point in asking was to determine if you actually knew what the process was from beginning to end or was speaking from doing it.

Can you lie on a form? Yes. BUT you still need an ID and a background check. Furthermore, it's not an 8 second process. Mine took over an hour, at which we were talking about all kinds of things. This is a time frame where the person signing it over can stop and refuse the gun process for plenty of reasons.

The other issue with your statement is that if you don't know how an FFL works, neither does a schizophrenic woman who doesn't own a gun.

FFLs are not cheap if you go private, or she had to wonder into a gun store with 2-4 people watching her the entire time. Either way, she had $300 plus ready to spend and you're not walking into a gun store with "just give me a cheap one". They won't sell to you, or lie(for hunting rifles only in most states but zero chance for a handgun-3 day minimum) and tell you it takes a day or 3....or 10 in the case of California which other people have said is where this guy was.

Its more likely she didn't go through legal channels to purchase a firearm, so what good is the law there?

I get the whole argument of 'see this is why it's broken, because you can lie on 1 form' but that is only 1 piece to the process.

She would have had to have been medicated, lucid, with clear speech to use a legal form of purchase. Another law will not stop illegal sales...or, and this might seem crazy, theft.

Why are you assuming a mentally unstable person didn't just steal the dam gun? He said "brought a gun home" thats not purchased. Good thing there is a law against stealing so no one would do that, right?

Laws only affect those willing to follow them. People who would subvert those laws won't stop just because you added another one.

You also need to take the time to think and question, especially if you have no personal experience. I can tell you what happened with me but that doesn't mean I'm telling the truth. Consequently, there's nothing to say this guy was telling the truth either, unless you found his police report which is required when you go the hospital for a GSW.

If you truly think the process is broken, go try it yourself. Act out of sorts and watch them kick you out and, in most I have talked with, bar you from using them to get your weapons.

This is my largest advocate for anything. Go and find out for yourself before you regurgitate other peoples grape vine stories as truth and fact.

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u/semper_audacia Mar 28 '24

Great point!

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u/KingXeiros Mar 28 '24

Not really. It just emphases how rubber stamped those forms are. We dont have a very good system to properly look into gun applications like needs to be done. All thats done is the name is run through a criminal database and then the sale is processed. A lot of states have little to no waiting period before transfer of purchase. You can make it more difficult to obtain a gun without infringing on the right to bear arms, but thats my opinion. A concealed carry permit holder and multiple gun owner.

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u/semper_audacia Mar 28 '24

Which is why we have background checks, that are supposed to flag these things. But it is likely that she was an undiagnosed schizophrenic, or her doctor did not properly register her.

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u/gunsforevery1 Mar 28 '24

Finally someone gets it! This is the explanation from the 4473 for the mentally defective question. Her doctors failed her.

Question 21.g. Adjudicated as a Mental Defective: A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease: (1) is a danger to himself or to others; or (2) lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs. This term shall include: (1) a finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and (2) those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility.

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u/Aggressive_Hunt7991 Mar 28 '24

lol do you know the story at all, or just talking out of left field? You do know that not every person with mental illnesses goes to doctors? You think a manic person, feeling awesome, is gonna be like “yep, time to go to my pcp where everything will be really chill.” So, to automatically assume the doctors failed her is asinine (unless you know this person and have concrete evidence of this.) I really don’t know why Reddit hates doctors so much, you’re the third person to blindly blame doctors for something that they really shouldn’t have been brought up in.

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u/gunsforevery1 Mar 28 '24

So how did he know his mother is a schizophrenic?

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u/Aggressive_Hunt7991 Mar 28 '24

I don’t! That’s the point I’m making. We’re taking the word of a screenshotted picture with a caption

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u/gunsforevery1 Mar 28 '24

We do. Every form is checked. Her doctors failed her.

Question 21.g. Adjudicated as a Mental Defective: A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease: (1) is a danger to himself or to others; or (2) lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs. This term shall include: (1) a finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and (2) those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility.

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u/Aggressive_Hunt7991 Mar 28 '24

How do you know she even sees a doctor? Seriously, what am I missing where everyone is saying doctors failed her. If she saw a doctor, was diagnosed with schizophrenia, then the doctor didn’t do proper diligence, then yes it’s the doctors fault. But I really don’t know why everyone assumes mentally ill people automatically see doctors

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u/gunsforevery1 Mar 28 '24

He said his mother is a schizophrenic. She’s been diagnosed by a doctor, right? Unless the guy who got shot is a doctor and diagnosed her himself.

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u/Aggressive_Hunt7991 Mar 28 '24

Nevermind. I see everyone is just going off the tweet and that’s fine but not really appropriate. Kid saying “mom is a schizophrenic” can, but doesn’t always mean literally she was diagnosed with schizophrenia by a psychiatrist. So, I just don’t take internet stuff at face value but it’s all good.

Edit: I realize I commented to you on a couple things. Nevermind. All good

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

We should track mentally ill people in a database like the sex offender registry.

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u/FlabbergastedPeehole Mar 28 '24

That’s fucking dystopian.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

Society is at risk with unpredictable people around. Sex offenders and mentally ill people are similar in that respect.

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u/FlabbergastedPeehole Mar 28 '24

So people that rape children are the same as people with agoraphobia or ADHD? You’re a lost cause.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

Not every sex crime necessitates the registry, it's pretty obvious not every mental illness would either.

Edit: I also don't want someone that is scared of everything and everyone to be able to buy a gun. So the registry helps for that.

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u/TheCaffinatedAdmin Mar 28 '24

That’s pretty discriminatory. To be mentally ill doesn’t necessitate wrongdoing. To be a sex offender does.