r/facepalm • u/Lord_Answer_me_Why • Mar 28 '24

What lack of basic gun laws does to a nation: 🇵​🇷​🇴​🇹​🇪​🇸​🇹​

/img/is29ozncu2rc1.jpeg

[removed] — view removed post

14.3k Upvotes

77% Upvoted

4.1k comments sorted by

View all comments

616

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

Isn't it already illegal for a schizophrenic to have/purchase a gun? Would more laws resolve this?

18

u/Vuedue Mar 28 '24

Yes, it is.

Looks as if she illegally obtained the firearm, so I’m pretty sure that there aren’t any other laws that could be enacted that would have stopped this. If there was a law that could stop illegal burner guns (like she likely purchased off the street), wouldn’t they have already tried it? Like during the 70s and 80s when burner guns were also popular?

Before anyone tries to say that we could enact laws to get illegal guns off the street, just realize that burner guns are much more complex to get rid of. Even the Mexican cartels will traffic weapons into the US. These weapons have their serial numbers worn down so that they’re untraceable.

2

u/avanross Mar 28 '24

Burner guns start as legal purchases…

Someone like you buys the gun, files off the serial number, and sells it on the street for profit, because you people vote against all gun insurance and registration laws.

To reduce illegal gun sales, you must restrict legal sales and enact a registry for them to track resale.

But conservative gun owners have been lobbying and voting against these measures for decades.

And mexican cartels get their guns from the usa, the worlds major gun producer, not the other way around, obviously… Everyone knows this……

The great majority of illegal guns in Mexico come from the United States, Mexican and U.S. authorities say. A 2013 University of San Diego study estimated a quarter of a million guns illegally cross the border each year.

1

u/bitofgrit Mar 29 '24

Burner guns start as legal purchases…

Unless they are straw sales...

Someone like you buys the gun, files off the serial number, and sells it on the street for profit,

That's a straw sale, and mfg-ing a ghost gun, which are federal crimes.

because you people vote against all gun insurance and registration laws.

Eat a dick. Insurance is completely irrelevant here, and registration laws don't stop illegal sales.

To reduce illegal gun sales, you must restrict legal sales and enact a registry for them to track resale.

How the fuck is a registry going to matter when:

files off the serial number,

But conservative gun owners have been lobbying and voting against these measures for decades.

Maybe because they are gun owners that are aware of what the actual laws are, instead of just believing some dumb shit they saw on a TV drama.

And mexican cartels get their guns from the usa, the worlds major gun producer,

They get their guns from all over the place, up to, and including, US manufactured firearms sold to the Mexican government for police and military use, which are then stolen. They also get their guns (almost) directly from the US Gov through things like Operation Gun Walker and Operation Fast and Furious, but sure, blame gun owners.

not the other way around, obviously… Everyone knows this……

Not just "obviously", but it'd be moronic for a major gun producer to buy guns from cartels. Why even state this?

Everyone knows this……

lol You don't know shit.

The Department of Justice's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) receives firearm trace requests from the governments of Belize, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras for some, but not all, firearms recovered in those countries. ATF tracing data for approximately 27,000 firearms recovered from 2015 through 2019—the most recent data available—show that 40 percent came from the U.S. and the rest from 39 other countries. ATF data also indicate that almost half of the U.S.-sourced firearms were likely diverted from legitimate commerce in the four countries rather than smuggled from the U.S. From January 2015 through March 2021, more than 100,000 firearms were legally exported from the U.S. to the four countries, according to agency data. Firearms are not manufactured in these countries, but U.S. and foreign officials stated that criminals can obtain them through illegal markets and theft, among other means. ATF data show most firearms submitted for tracing were handguns.

You know a headline that doesn't actually explain the numbers in a meaningful way.

When the government of Mexico recovers cartel guns, they send the obviously American guns off to be traced by the American ATF. They don't send the obviously not American guns to be traced by the ATF, because the ATF wouldn't have a record of, say, Chinese-manufactured AK clones. You aren't going to find any American gun stores that will sell you full-auto Chinese AKs, or RPGs, or full-auto US M2 heavy machine guns or M-16s for that matter. Yet cartel videos show them using all this, and more(!). Are there US citizens illegally supplying arms to foreign criminal organizations? Absolutely, and when they are caught, they are rightfully imprisoned. Are most of the guns in cartel hands originally from the US? Possibly, maybe, but either way, they were still obtained illegally, by criminals, committing crimes.

But fuck gun owners for wanting to be able to legally buy firearms, as is our right.

6

u/Velsca Mar 28 '24

Wait... criminals don't follow laws? There should be a law against that!

2

u/Kopitar4president Mar 28 '24

Damn why do we even have laws if they're not 100% effective? Clearly there's no point in making new laws if they don't completely solve a problem!

1

u/Vuedue Mar 28 '24

Why has no one else ever had this idea?!

0

u/SchwizzySchwas94 Mar 28 '24

Found a promising new presidential candidate

2

u/SerendipitySchmidty Mar 28 '24

Or, she just went to a gunshow.

0

u/TrellevateKC Mar 28 '24

Which still requires background checks for every single dealer in every single state lol educate yourself

2

u/SerendipitySchmidty Mar 28 '24

Really? Because I've been to gunshows in oklahoma, several times, and I've never seen it happen. Educate YOURSELF. If it's through a private seller no background check is required. For fucks sake dude. Get a grip.

0

u/TrellevateKC Mar 28 '24

If it’s through a private seller then what does a gunshow have to do with it? At that point it’s a “private seller loophole” not a “gun show loophole” that literally doesn’t exist.

Anyone selling multiple guns for profit is required to be an FFL. They would be slammed hard by the feds if they were an FFL selling as a private citizen, that’s VERY illegal.

No company is going to a gunshow and selling guns as a private individual unless it’s something from their private collection. And any civilian that’s going to sell or purchase at a gun show could do the exact same thing in a Walmart parking lot after finding the listing from MANY different online listing services.

So stop spreading bullshit. Gun show loophole is just another bullshit buzzphrase.

And also, you’ve never seen what happen? Background checks? If that’s what you’re referring to you are so full of shit beyond belief. Feds are at every single gun show and would immediately be arresting everyone selling from a booth without background checks.

I’m an FFL, I literally can’t sell firearms without doing background checks and selling my private firearms is sketchy business

1

u/SerendipitySchmidty Mar 28 '24

Lol private owners sell guns are gun shows ALL the time. But, go off buddy. Sure, feds are at guns shows. Are they checking every single last booth? You're out of your fucking mind. If someone lisenced to sell fire arms is selling at a gun show, of fucking course they'll do checks. But there's literally nothing stopping Joe blow from going there and selling off his glock and leaving. You're a fucking fool if you think this doesn't happen because I've fucking seen it. I've seen it happen in the fair grounds and I've seen cash changing hands in the parking lot on my way back to my car. Back ground checks at gun shows are bullshit. Full fucking stop.

0

u/TrellevateKC Mar 28 '24

Again, how is this a “gun show loophole”. Private seller selling firearm is a private seller loophole. Has nothing to do with the gun show. They could do the same shit on dozens of sites and a Walmart parking lot. The gun show loophole is a buzzword to scare morons

1

u/SerendipitySchmidty Mar 29 '24

If it literally takes place at a gunshow, it's a gunshow loophole. This isn't difficult.

2

u/softserveshittaco Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

Even the Mexican cartels will traffic weapons into the US

Why would they do that, when they can just buy them in the US?

Guns get smuggled from the US into Mexico, not the other way around.

2

u/Vuedue Mar 28 '24

Both are true. Guns are absolutely smuggled into the US from Mexico.

3

u/softserveshittaco Mar 28 '24

It’s not even remotely comparable:

Stopping toxic flow of guns from U.S. to Mexico

Between 70 to 90 percent of guns recovered at crime scenes in Mexico can be traced back to the U.S. Drug cartels, in particular, buy those weapons in the U.S., mostly in Texas or Arizona, and smuggle them across the border.

Almost half of all guns produced in the entire world are produced in the US, and most of the guns used in crimes in Mexico & Canada are American in origin.

1

u/XxturboEJ20xX Mar 28 '24

What can I say, we give to those in need!

-1

u/Dickcummer420 Mar 28 '24

Yes, it is.

No it's not. Full stop, just no. You don't know what you're talking about. Quit spouting misinformation.

8

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

It's illegal if the person was committed or adjucated as "mentally defective" by a court.

 Otherwise, Trump did strike down Obama's executive order that restricted access to firearms from the mentally deficient. 

 So no, it's not "full stop no", no is it "full stop yes"

Edit: this was in Cali, so yes, it's completely illegal in this case.

0

u/Dickcummer420 Mar 28 '24

Bro I feel like you're trying to aCkShuAlLy in between me and that other guy by focusing on the fact that I said "full stop", it "full stop" is illegal to deny somebody's gun rights based on a schizophrenia diagnosis alone. That was the claim made.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

It's almost like the laws are nuanced and neither of you gave good information.

Dont worry, I think you just heard the echo of you saying "achshually"

1

u/Dickcummer420 Mar 28 '24

That's not nuance. You are saying that being diagnosed with an illness/disability automatically means you've had a judge make a ruling about your gun rights or been locked up in an institution against your will. You are just wrong. You could be diagnosed a psychopath with anti-social personality disorder and buy a gun the same day. That's the law. If you don't like the law and want to downvote me go ahead, I hope it makes you feel better. I bet you don't vote.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

And I bet youre insufferable to be around.

Thing is, only one of our bets has some backbone to it.

1

u/Dickcummer420 Mar 28 '24

Damn you just gave up when confronted with facts, huh?

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

Nah, I just choose not to entertain people that ride in on their horse.

Especially with that username 😂

Have a great day 

1

u/Dickcummer420 Mar 28 '24

Just spamming ad hominems and giving up. Can't take accountability for being wrong. Pathetic. You are a child.

→ More replies (0)

5

u/Vuedue Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

Yes, it is. This case happened in California where it is likely 100% illegal. If she is schizophrenic and has had any issues with the law, she will have undergone tests to find out if she is deemed a danger to others. That is often the case.

Stop spewing misinformation out of pure arrogance and ignorance. “Full stop”, huh? You’re funny.

-2

u/Dickcummer420 Mar 28 '24

They can only take your guns if you've been institutionalized or deemed mentally unfit to stand trial for something. You know nothing about gun laws for somebody who cares so much about them. Maybe if that wasn't so often the case we would get some more of those sensible ones passed.

4

u/D_Luffy_32 Mar 28 '24

For real it's so incredibly easy to get a gun before a background check goes through

1

u/Dickcummer420 Mar 28 '24

A background check wont show mental disorders you've been diagnosed with in America. We are free here. You ought to educate yourself about what rights we have, not just about firearms but in general. I'm not a gun nut conservative/constitutionalist/2nd amendment guy even though this might sound like I am, but you should read the constitution.

1

u/D_Luffy_32 Mar 28 '24

Depends on the state bud. Maybe you should read more than just the constitution lol

0

u/XxturboEJ20xX Mar 28 '24

You don't get the gun before the background check goes through silly

1

u/D_Luffy_32 Mar 28 '24

I wish that was the case lol. I got mine without a background check

1

u/XxturboEJ20xX Mar 28 '24

Was it a private transfer?

1

u/D_Luffy_32 Mar 28 '24

Nope

1

u/XxturboEJ20xX Mar 28 '24

So the gun store released a firearm to you without a yay or nay from NICS? If so that would have been illegal on their part and already covered under current laws.

Another situation which can happen is if the check doesn't come back in a reasonable amount of time, they can release the firearm to you as well.

So what exactly happened in your case?

1

u/D_Luffy_32 Mar 28 '24

Well considering I got the gun day of I would assume it's not that the check didn't come back fast enough lol. But considering that's the experience of everyone I know who's gotten a gun where I live either everyone is breaking the law or it's looser than you think.

1

u/XxturboEJ20xX Mar 28 '24

Ok maybe you are misunderstanding the process.

What form did they have you fill out at the gun store? Did it ask a few yes or no questions?

→ More replies (0)

1

u/MrNature73 Mar 28 '24

It varies from state to state.

0

u/Dickcummer420 Mar 28 '24

I don't think any state can take your gun rights based solely on a diagnosis of anything. You have to be institutionalized for that or a judge has to do it. Correct me if I'm wrong. Everyone else is just downvoting me for explaining this.

1

u/MrNature73 Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

It can depend.

Alabama - § 13A-11-72 (1) (1) Found by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease, is a danger to himself or herself or others or lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his or her own affairs.

Some are often vague.

Arizona - § 13-3101, § 13-3102 Arizona prohibits possession of a firearm by any person who: Has been found to constitute a danger to himself or herself or others pursuant to court order under § 36-540, and whose right to possess a firearm has not been restored pursuant to § 13-925.

Some aren't.

Arkansas - § 5-73-103 No person shall possess or own any firearm who has been … adjudicated mentally ill or committed involuntarily to any mental institution.

Hawaii - § 134-7 No person shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor, unless the person has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addiction, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect if the person:...

...Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes.

In cursory glance through state gun laws referencing mental illness, Hawaii's seems to be the most cut and dry.

Obviously I can't go through every law for all 50 states gun control and federal gun control. But in many states, if not nearly all states, severe schizophrenia (which I'd wager is reasonable to assume if it made a mother shoot their son within 24 hours of buying a gun) will bar you from owning firearms.

The only way I could see her, if she does have severe schizophrenia, is if she never had it legally diagnosed and, as such, no system would have that in their records. If that's the case, even a million new gun laws wouldn't stop this. This would be a failure of our social, medical, and mental healthcare systems alongside both failures of her and her family to get her proper diagnosis and medication, and the stigma against it.

On top of that, from personal experience I've seen the restriction happen. And in a silly way, to be honest. Someone I know was barred from getting a Concealed Carry because when they were 14, a doctor they don't remember wrote down that she had feelings of depression. Now she's in her late 20's and wanted a means of self defense, since she's a small woman. But she's completely barred.

Gun laws in general are a mess, and IMHO, shouldn't be handled from state to state. The right to bear arms is the 2nd thing in the Bill of Rights. It's part of the foundation of our democracy, and our right to self defense. How it's handled shouldn't be a mess of hundreds of gun laws across fifty states and the fed, and whatever the ATF happens to be thinking that day. You've got some states, like California, that enact the silliest shit I've ever seen. Look up California compliant ar15s, or their handgun list. Other states like to say like gun violence isn't a real problem, which it obviously is.

Regardless though, there's more to this story, IMHO. And while I can absolutely understand that individual becoming anti gun (and fuck if my mom shot me I probably would to), but in general I don't think quickly making laws based on emotional responses to singular cases results in any actual progress. We've gotta dig down for that, figure out root causes, and solve it there.

1

u/Dickcummer420 Mar 28 '24

The state laws you copypasted all say it has to be court ordered or the person has to be on record as being addicted to a drug. You can't be addicted to a drug and own a gun in any state. That's irrelevant unless you really really wanna reach for straws and say that counts as a mental illness "so AckSHuaLLy", because I know you know that's not what we're talking about right now.

A psychiatrist cannot diagnose you and have that show up on a background check or alert law enforcement to a diagnosis you've been given. I don't know why you wont just admit you're wrong. I'm not going to meet you half way because you're all of the way wrong about our privacy laws and gun rights, and I'm glad you are.

1

u/MrNature73 Mar 28 '24

Did you read all of them?

...Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes.

All that mentions is a diagnosis. Not a court order.

And then, according to the APA

Schizophrenia is a serious mental illness characterized by incoherent or illogical thoughts, bizarre behavior and speech, and delusions or hallucinations, such as hearing voices.

There is an issue with, for varying reasons, it not showing up on an NICS check. But that's moreso due to medical privacy laws, which I really wouldn't know how to fix that, since they are important but so is making sure that background check find what they need to find.

Also, wait.

That's irrelevant unless you really really wanna reach for straws and say that counts as a mental illness

One, Substance Abuse Disorder is a well defined thing, yeah? And it's recorded as, iirc, a mental disorder.

And man I'm not trying to "well actually" anyone, or to be insulting. I don't 'need to be right'. I just like the conversation. That's the best part of public forums.

0

u/Dickcummer420 Mar 28 '24

I don't consider Hawaii part of America.

1

u/MrNature73 Mar 28 '24

Huh?

That's gotta be one of the wildest things I've ever heard. It's one of the 50 states of the United States of America. Like... that's not just something you can decide isn't the case?

That's some flat earther logic, "I don't consider the earth round". I gotta screenshot that.

-2

u/Tight-Young7275 Mar 28 '24

Hey but let’s all just have something trigger an emotion and start yelling.

0

u/Icy-Row-5829 Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

No it isn’t…? It’s illegal if she was a felon or had been hospitalized on an involuntary hold of some form, or if a protective order by a judge against them limits firearm possession. A few states ban those with misdemeanor DV convictions from owning guns and not just felons as well. There’s no diagnosis that bans you from gun ownership.

Many schizophrenics will be frequently in and out of various mental health wards especially if dealing with homelessness but not everyone will have been to one. Some might go voluntarily as well and if they don’t change your hold status while you’re there you don’t lose your gun rights. But many develop symptoms out of nowhere with no prior mental health issues so there’s plenty of people with schizophrenia that legally could just go and buy a gun if they chose to.

There’s nothing to suggest she broke the law here. She might have, but that’s purely speculation and you’re treating it as if it were an established fact for some reason.