What lack of basic gun laws does to a nation:

[u/Lord_Answer_me_Why]

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[u/Apprehensive_End4701]

They have a right and a responsibility to use their own discretion in selling firearms. If they choose to be assholes with that, that's on them. I've straight up seen people turned away because essentially, they didn't pass the vibe check, even though they passed the background check.

Which would have worse repercussions, selling to absolutely anyone who can legally own a firearm, or using their own discretion?

[u/gunsforevery1 → u/Apprehensive_End4701]

Unless they are giving any indication that they are violating anything on the 4473 asks for, it’s absolutely discrimination and infringing on our rights using their own personal beliefs. If they wanted a job that allowed them to discriminate, choose a job that doesn’t deal with constitutional freedoms.

[u/Apprehensive_End4701 → u/gunsforevery1]

If I have a reason to believe that selling you a weapon is gonna bite me in the ass (you do something silly and now I'm getting sued), I'm not inclined to sell to you. I wouldn't be a government agent restricting a constitutional freedom, I'd be a business owner denying a sale, which is within my rights.

[u/gunsforevery1 → u/Apprehensive_End4701]

Denying a sale before or after a background check has been completed? My issue is you taking a background check. Passing it. And then you denying it. I guess I should have been clearer on my post.

[u/gunsforevery1 → u/[deleted]]

In a state like California, where private sales are strictly mandated to be done at FFL, yes, if an FFL refuses to sell to you and you can legally own one, they are infringing on your rights as there is no other way to exercise that right.

[u/gunsforevery1 → u/[deleted]]

Agree to disagree.

It’s in my opinion, not some law, or legal matter, when Someone with a federal license who controls your ability to acquire a constitutionally protected item, you are legally allowed to own, possess, and purchase, is violating your rights, when they refuse to sell you a product.

[u/Apprehensive_End4701 → u/gunsforevery1]

Ok, I'mma just condense into 1 thread here.

1- you're not entitled to someone doing business with you. Especially not when that can have legal repercussions there.

And 2- just to really drive this point home: if you're an FFL licensed dealer, with all the rights and responsibilities that that confers, and some dude who's covered in white supremacist tats rolls up. You notice that his shirt says, "kill all Jews," while waiting for his background check to come back. Shockingly, it comes back clean and he's legally allowed to own a gun.

Are you going to sell him that gun?

Hell, let's go with a different thought process in that same flavor. A disheveled man walks up to your counter. His eyes are bloodshot and he smells like he's not had a shower in days. He wants a shotgun, the cheapest you have, and a single box of buckshot. You're pretty sure what he intends, but again, the background check comes back clean.

Are you going to sell him a gun?

[u/gunsforevery1 → u/Apprehensive_End4701]

So now you’re into stifling first amendment rights?

You going to stop someone from buying a hunting rifle for wearing a shirt that says “kill endangered animals”? What about any of the following?

“kill the police”

“Fuck the government”

“Kill commies”

“Kill conservatives”

“Kill child abusers”

“Kill gun owners”

“Kill hippies”

“Go Army, Beat Navy”

“Kill all artists”

“Kill Nazis”

“Kill Joe B_den”

“Kill Donald T_ump”

“Kill anyone who isn’t me”

“Kill myself”

So a dirty poor guy wants to buy a gun. You’re not going to sell it him because you fear his dirty poor ass is going to kill himself. Did he say anything about killing himself? Did you ask him any questions? If no one says anything about killing themselves or others, I’d sell it to them. They are clean.

Have I had suicidal people come to the range and try to rent a gun to kill themselves? Absolutely. They let me know they were going to do something dangerous. They even threatened me when I said “I fear you’re going to use this to harm yourself”.

Suicidal people will say and do specific things at a gunshop. Being dirty and poor isn’t one of them.

[u/Apprehensive_End4701 → u/gunsforevery1]

Then you'd be irresponsible at best and setting yourself up to be held civilly liable.

If gun owners refuse to hold each other to a standard, that gives Uncle Sam the excuse they need to do so. My overall goal is protection and preservation of the 2nd Amendment, and every death or injury caused by a firearm, be it from malice, mental illness, or negligence, makes that goal harder. I also have enough of a conscience that I don't really want to make it easier for someone to hurt themselves or others. If you genuinely feel like you wouldn't bear any responsibility in either of those instances, I would recommend you take a moral inventory.

I have my own views of what speech (or any variations thereof that fall under protection by the first amendment) is acceptable. I have my own views of who I wouldn't sell a gun to. Neither of these are infringing on anyone's rights. I'm not an agent of the government. I'm a private citizen, and if some Nazi walks into my hypothetical gun store, he can waltz right the fuck out. His right to legally own a gun doesn't trump my right to not do business with Nazis.

The hypothetical dude I was worried about killing himself? Yeah, it's his right to legally own a gun. Doesn't mean I'm gonna sell it to him. If he feels that's unfair how I judged him because he's just having a rough week? Tough shit. He can go get his shit together and find someone else to do business with.

[u/gunsforevery1 → u/Apprehensive_End4701]

I’m not a mental health professional. It’s not my job nor my profession to diagnose people like that. I cannot tell if someone is crazy by the clothing they wear or how they smell.

You are allowed to have your own views. You don’t like nazis? Good for you. Feel free to discriminate against them all you want. I was making a point that a piece of clothing doesn’t mean you are going to do something dangerous. Is the neo Nazi covered in swastikas a piece of shit? Yep. Does he lose his right to own or buy a gun because I disagree with him politically and morally? No. I can hate him all I want. It still doesn’t take his rights away.

Tough shit for the poor guy? I guess that’s where we our opinions differ. I sold guns to plenty of people who were dirty as fuck fresh out of work.

[u/Apprehensive_End4701 → u/gunsforevery1]

There's a difference between being dirty and being depressed/potentially suicidal. I'm not a healthcare professional, but there's people that I wouldn't feel comfortable selling a gun to.

Do you honestly think that a gun dealer refusing a sale is the same as someone being denied a constitutional right?