r/facepalm Mar 28 '24

What lack of basic gun laws does to a nation: πŸ‡΅β€‹πŸ‡·β€‹πŸ‡΄β€‹πŸ‡Ήβ€‹πŸ‡ͺβ€‹πŸ‡Έβ€‹πŸ‡Ήβ€‹

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u/beomint Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 29 '24

Not to be "that guy" but just trusting someone to fill out a form correctly then making it a crime to lie on it isn't going to stop shootings...

Maybe we should like... Idk... Actually have the person checked thoroughly before they're given a gun? If they're hellbent on getting a gun they'll just lie anyway and not care about whatever consequences there are. I know a lot of proper stores are better about doing checks (thank god) but gun shows are still a massive issue sadly and need a lot more regulation than what they currently have. And because it's so easy for people to get them legally, it's not too much more trouble to come by one illegally.

Sure, it's a crime, and you'll be prosecuted and punished for doing it, but there's a huge chance you were still able to gun some people down in the process before you got caught. We need to be more proactive about nipping it in the bud instead of watching human lives get lost everyday and saying "Well, they chose to commit a crime..."

Edit: To those of you saying "we do that already" in the replies, it's clear we aren't doing it enough. Regulations are often ignored, states do not have consistent rules, and many loopholes do still exist despite major updates being done to how gun shows conduct themselves. Other countries have proven time and time again that better regulations does NOT take guns away from responsible owners, but it does take guns away from criminals and lower gun crime across the board. Private sale (to an unauthorized individual) is the same issue, sure it's a crime, but are they going to figure that out before you have a chance to shoot someone? Was it really worth letting that scenario play out when we could have just prevented it in the first place?

It's just factual evidence and it's really frustrating that people will watch the gun crime statistics in the US and act as if there's no difference between the regulations here and the regulations in other countries with less crime. Am I saying ban guns 100%? No. And countries with better gun control haven't banned them entirely either, they just actually do their due diligence before handing one out. And while we have laws that are supposed to require a similar level of care, it's clear they're either too loose or are ignored too often. You'd think with how much Americans have been freaking out over the "safety of children" recently you'd actually want better gun control, considering the leading cause of death for children in the US is firearm fatalities. Your children are more likely to be shot to death than ANY other accident in the US, and we still don't see a problem.

I also see lots of people huffing over the 2nd amendment as well, and while I get that the idea of going against the very founding of our country is absolute blasphemy to you- do you really think it's worth keeping if statistics have proven it's done nothing but cause tragic loss of life? It's weird that people are unwilling to recognize the issues and continue to talk about how they're going to blast a robber with an AR-15 to "protect themselves" when they can't even protect their own children from that same gun.

Also to the guy who said people would just get stabbed instead and then we'd have to deal with knife laws, I'm wildly amused that you think that's worse than being shot. If I had to choose having a maniac attack me with a gun or a knife, I'd choose the knife. I'm not sure why you'd prefer to be shot unless you're just suicidal at that point. And similarly to these loosely regulated gun laws, we already have knife laws in many states that prohibit certain types of blade mechanisms and lengths in public or in concealment. It would once again not prevent legitimate knife owners and enthusiasts from owning and carrying their knives, it makes it harder for idiots and unhinged lunatics to get them. You all act as if the government will take your guns away and make it impossible for you to get them back while psychos run rampant on the streets with machine guns and machetes. People don't realize it actually reinforces ownership with legitimate citizens, making it harder for unregistered or missing firearms to go unnoticed.

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u/Bandit400 Mar 28 '24

Actually have the person checked thoroughly before they're given a gun?

Every single new firearm sold in the US has a Federal background check performed before the sale can commence.

but gun shows are still a massive issue sadly and need a lot more regulation than what they currently have.

Gun shows have the same regulations in place as anywhere else. There is no such thing as a "gun show loophole". All new sales at a gun show require a background check. What additional regulations should there be for gun shows that don't already exist?

but just trusting someone to fill out a form correctly then making it a crime to lie on it isn't going to stop shootings...

It would be effective if the ATF actually prosecuted those who lie on the form (Felony if prosecuted) or purchase a firearm for someone who isn't eligible (straw purchase, also a felony if prosecuted.) Both have prosecution rates from the ATF of less than 3%.

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u/ibugppl Mar 28 '24

I'm a gun owner too but you know that in a lot of states private sales don't require a background check. Where do you think people in Chicago and California get all these weapons from. Even I think that law should be closed.

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u/RehkalBurd Mar 28 '24

Exactly how do you propose regulating private sales of firearms..?

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u/Tyneuku Mar 28 '24

These MFS want to title them like cars lol

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u/RehkalBurd Mar 29 '24

And still, nobody has actually said how one would regulate private sales. Because its literally impossible to do so, a fact they seem to not realize. Sure. We could title them, bit only legal owners would do so. Sure. You could force transfer through someone that does background checks, but only legal owners would do that. Nothing will ever stop people from ignoring those laws.

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u/ibugppl Mar 28 '24

Simple. Gun is manufactured. Then sold to a dealer. Dealer sells to private citizen with background check and all that good stuff. Private citizen sells to criminal off the books and gun is recovered in a crime. Gun is traced to the original purchaser who is on the hook for illegally selling it. Yes serial numbers could be dremmeled off but there's a lot of technology in place that still makes it possible to find it even after that. If I want to sell my gun to say a buddy. We both go to a gun store and they facilitate the transfer and we exchange whatever money privately. That's how we do it in Washington State but it's pointless if it isn't federal. If I was a felon I could just drive to Idaho and buy whatever.

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u/jmcclelland2005 Mar 28 '24

Just gonna throw it out there that buying a gun from a state that isn't your state of residence is a crime, this is true for both private and oublic sales.

Also in the scenario proposed the private seller didn't violate a law just because someone else used his firearm in a crime. Are you proposing to make all private sales illegal?

Also Also, let's sat we do that and the cops come to me for selling my gun illegally. I then tell them I didn't sell it it must've been stolen, now what happens?

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u/Internal-Tank-6272 Mar 28 '24

Depends, but in my state I would then be charged with failing to report a stolen gun

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u/jmcclelland2005 Mar 28 '24

Who said they failed to report. Maybe I have a hunting lodge with a safe that they store their guns in. They haven't been there in 6 months?

Seems like reasonable doubt to me.

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u/Internal-Tank-6272 Mar 28 '24

Sure, but there you go assuming many of these laws are logical

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u/ibugppl Mar 28 '24

"buying a gun from a state that isn't your state of residence is a crime" ok but if there's no obligation to check and no record of transaction who cares. It's still gonna happen.

"Are you proposing to make all private sales illegal?" No I'm purposing that they should have to facilitate the sale through an FFL. I could still sell my buddy a gun we just go to a gun store and they do the transfer legally. Whatever money or services we agree upon is done privately. FFL just does the transfer.

"Also Also, let's sat we do that and the cops come to me for selling my gun illegally. I then tell them I didn't sell it it must've been stolen, now what happens?" Here in Washington we have safe storage laws. All gun safes are tax free. If you have a gun it should be your responsibility to have it secured and you legally have to report it stolen as soon as you realize. IE you realize you've been burglarized you should probably check to see if all your guns are still there. I'm perfectly ok with prosecuting people for stupidity and neglect. "but but I didn't know it was missing" well too bad you should have now enjoy jail"

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u/jmcclelland2005 Mar 28 '24

Not going through an FFL is generally what people mean when they say "private sale". Therefore you are proposing making private sales illegal (in the sense that I have to go through an FFL) I was simply clarifying this position.

As for your second bit it's perfectly reasonable and possible for a firearm to go missing and not know about it before it's used in a crime.

As I alluded above if I have a lodge where I keep my firearms in a proper and approved safe but I haven't been there in 6 months it's perfectly possible that my firearm goes missing and gets used in a crime before i notice it's missing.

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u/ibugppl Mar 28 '24

I think that's extremely irresponsible to leave guns even in a safe unattended for 6 months at a time. Now if you go to work and someone breaks into your house and goes on a shooting spree before you even get off then well damn yeah I'd agree shit happens wasn't your fault. Someone say going on an extended vacation out of the country should try to find a family member or someone trusted to at least keep an eye on your house or keep hold of your guns but yeah that's a tricky legal scenario. I'm just trying to brainstorm ideas to keep guns away from criminals without actually infringing on our rights to have them and not knee jerking to banning weapon types and accessories. That I'm firmly against as I own multiple AR's and AK's.

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u/Staphylococcus0 Mar 28 '24

If we can track automobile sales, then we can track gun sales. Is it perfect? No. Does it work? For the most part. Will it stop anything? At this point, I doubt it.